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Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
431
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Posted - 2013.03.19 15:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:You see our dilemma.
Since the PC Dev blog it's been the elephant in room. How does a corp coming from a tradition of neutrality work in a game where there is nothing Neutral.
I'm sure there is a solution we just have find it. But I strongly feel that we should be transparent with the community with such an important matter.
The problem is that PC potentially is a large source of ISK for Dust Corps and we aren't going to be able to have a piece of the pie at the moment.
My suggestion is to ally with one or more other "neutral" corps to achieve the same end. For instance, if Dust University, University of Dust, and Dust Community College all split a planet between themselves under a NAMAP, then it will be a bit easier to hold it.
Of course, you'd still have to find the RIGHT planet to do it, otherwise neighboring planets would keep invading. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
434
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Posted - 2013.03.19 15:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
Alcare Xavier Golden wrote:Sextus Hardcock wrote:I suggest that you remain neutral, and do not take any Districts. Teach your students with Pubs, and later FW. Once they are competent, you can seek out smaller corps who need bodies for their own PCs. We've though about this too, but the same issue applies. If we're helping other corps, even small ones in their conquest efforts, how can we consider ourselves neutral?
I think the suggestion was for your students to be true mercenaries in those cases, fighting for anyone and everyone who will give them a slot instead of for their own territory.
In that way, your support is completely neutral from a diplomatic standpoint.
"Oh, I'm sorry that you were upset that some of our students fought against you when Carebears, Inc. attacked you last night. If you'd like, I'd be happy to put together a squad for you guys tonight when they attack again." |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
434
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Posted - 2013.03.19 15:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Alcare Xavier Golden wrote:Sentient Archon wrote:The Dust community has to agree as a whole NOT to take your districts and support you if someone does take your districts.
I also think when it comes to FPS your training methodology needs some improvement. I would be happy to help you guys in any way I can.
I will even support 1-3 districts being assigned to only you guys so that you can train people. I've made a similar point in the boardroom. We'd either need near full support of the mercenary community thus reinforcing our neutrality, or this may not be feasible. We also realize we have work to do regarding our training methodology (tool restrictions asside) and welcome help from the community in that regard as well!
Indeed, another valid reason for going with the community-protected "Planet of Education" model is that the neutral training corps could fight against each other for control of "spare" districts as part of the training. This would enable Dust Uni and some others to be a bit like Red-vs-Blue in EVE.
For instance, if three training corps control a 12 district planet, each one could get three "fixed" districts and the other three could be "sacrificial" districts.
If this arrangement was enforced by the Major League corps/alliances, it would provide a useful training ground for all sides. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
435
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Posted - 2013.03.19 16:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Alcare Xavier Golden wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Indeed, another valid reason for going with the community-protected "Planet of Education" model is that the neutral training corps could fight against each other for control of "spare" districts as part of the training. This would enable Dust Uni and some others to be a bit like Red-vs-Blue in EVE.
For instance, if three training corps control a 12 district planet, each one could get three "fixed" districts and the other three could be "sacrificial" districts.
If this arrangement was enforced by the Major League corps/alliances, it would provide a useful training ground for all sides.
Potentionally challenging mission, particularly since we have so little information regarding district distribution, but this sounds like a very interesting model... I like that too, though considering how PC mechanics work it would be a logistics nightmare to enforce it. Hopefully once we get more details we will see if that's possible.
Well, here is my "vision" for how this might work:
In EVE, there are "coalitions" of alliances. These groups have no in-game mechanic enforcing their behavior, just a mutual agreement.
If we establish a "Scholarship Coalition" that includes say three "Major-League" alliances and three "Colleges", this system is easily enforceable.
Essentially, once the first big wave of colonization ends, the Major Leaguers look at their borders and work with the Colleges to pick a planet that is roughly in the middle. All of the members of the Scholarship Coalition pledge to maintain the planet as a preserve for the colleges and to mutually defend it if someone attacks it outside of an arranged educational battle.
The Major Leaguers are under no obligation to respect each others' borders (they can keep fighting each other all they want). The colleges never attack off-world, so they pose no threat to the Major Leagues whose sheer power keeps other would-be attackers at bay. The Major Leagues, in turn, have established goodwill from the colleges and will likely have a better chance of recruiting the best students. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
438
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Posted - 2013.03.19 16:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote: I knew that's what they meant. But the problem is if game mechanics will allow it.
I'm not sure why they wouldn't.
Essentially, it's all a "gentlemens' agreement" with no game-client enforcement.
Let's say that Mega Corp, Big Boys, and Giant Group are the three Major Leaguers involved. Once the big land rush has calmed down a tad, Mega, Big, and Giant get together and say:
"These systems are roughly in the middle of us, so we can all easily attack any of those planets. Let's ask Dust Academy, College of Dust, and Dust University which one they like."
Academy, College, and University then decide on one that has a small number of districts that can be fairly divided up and replies to Mega, Big, and Giant.
Mega, Big, and Giant conquer said planet.
Academy, College, and University then "conquer" their assigned "fixed" districts in staged crap battles with the Major Leagues.
After that, it's just a matter of holding the status quo. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
442
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Posted - 2013.03.19 16:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sentient Archon wrote:Reav Hannari wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote:Academy, College, and University then "conquer" their assigned "fixed" districts in staged crap battles with the Major Leagues. Did we just suggest the same thing at the same time? This is a good idea. I think CCP should just assign 3-4 districts to DU and let them duke it out there. It will be a good source of income and practice for the students.
The key is that it couldn't just be Dust University. There would need to be two, or better yet, three "colleges" in order to ensure a good supply of battles within the "training" context. In addition, having a balanced trio would reinforce the neutrality of all of the colleges involved. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
442
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 16:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:Sentient Archon wrote:Reav Hannari wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote:Academy, College, and University then "conquer" their assigned "fixed" districts in staged crap battles with the Major Leagues. Did we just suggest the same thing at the same time? This is a good idea. I think CCP should just assign 3-4 districts to DU and let them duke it out there. It will be a good source of income and practice for the students. I doubt CCP would act directly and I don't think it's needed. The school corps can pick their own planet and set of districts, declare their intention, and go at it. Those that support the schools can help regulate interference from the community. The schools evolved from the players and should be managed by the players. The player generated content surrounding this looks really interesting. I can see rogue corps attacking a school but that would provide experience for them. If it becomes overwhelming then stronger corps could step in.
Exactly. That's totally what I was trying to communicate. Bravo! |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
442
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 16:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:I like the ideas of a University planet but from some reason I keep thinking it should be called Tleilax...
Oh kitten, more Jovians, only this time hopped up on the Spice, Melange... |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
442
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Posted - 2013.03.19 16:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sentient Archon wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote:The key is that it couldn't just be Dust University. There would need to be two, or better yet, three "colleges" in order to ensure a good supply of battles within the "training" context. In addition, having a balanced trio would reinforce the neutrality of all of the colleges involved. What about Bojo's? Correct me if I am wrong but you guys are also a training corp?
Yes. I've been trying to hint that Bojo might be worth involving in the discussion without implying that I speak for him or the corp.
I don't know what his feelings on the matter are, but I think (personally) that it would make since to have Dust Uni, Bojo's, and someone else in that "Scholarship Coalition" I suggested earlier.
That would leave each "college" in a separate alliance, so no complications in terms of war mechanics, and with the possibility of EVE-side OB training.
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Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
444
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Posted - 2013.03.19 16:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sentient Archon wrote:Alcare Xavier Golden wrote:You don't think its feasible that university members could be used to fill holes in a corp match?
I would imagine that would depend on the size/power of the corp involved. If it's a big protofest then you're right...but if it's a smaller corp trying to maintain a footprint in New Eden...possibly we could help. Yes. You do bring out an interesting point out here. Mercing for smaller corps vs smaller corps will work out for you. The payouts may be smaller but will still be profitable for you.
I think that the concern was that Dust Uni won't be able to afford things like skill books and a corporate armory for training without some form of income.
In EVE, you can potentially get very large donations from people who make billions of ISK a day. That is not possible right now (or in the foreseeable future) on the Dust side.
The districts would provide a small amount of income which mercenary contracts would not unless CCP implements a tax system or a contract system.
That said, I don't think anyone here is saying that having students "intern" in squads for other corps is a bad idea. |
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Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
444
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 16:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
Alcare Xavier Golden wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote:Yes, but I'd like to think of us as a bit more one on one than dust uni Care to elaborate?
I think that Vermaak was commenting on the current pedagogical model at Bojo's. Right now, training is often conducted by teachers (some outside the corp) who partner one-on-one with students.
Of course, there's also the lab rat division for testing out mechanics. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
446
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 16:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
3 bird wrote:If Bojo feels like adding to the discussion he is more than welcome to, he might have an idea that works that we at D-Uni have missed and even if not would be interesting to get his take on things.
Having said that Bojo might not have the rigid view on neutrality that we at D-Uni have, If not it would certainly give him some extra breathing room in terms of P.C that are unavailable to us.
I'm sure he'll wander in, I don't think he's on right now.
My understanding is that we are trying to be neutral as well. Again, that is my understanding. I'll let the man himself state his stance in his own words. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
448
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 18:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
Synthetic-Method wrote:This is a question for Kevall and 3 bird.
Other than an income source, which is only a temporary problem due to lacking game mechanics, what does engaging in PConquering provide educationally?
Are the core game mechanics going to be radically different (referring to the grunt experience)?
If not cant things like comms etiquette, working as a team, and how to fill a specific role be taught outside of PConquest?
In short what educational benefit is Dust Uni going to gain from controlling planets that cant be gained using squads in FW and pub matches at a newberies level of play?
I know you wanted Kev and Bird, but I'm a Nosy Nellie so here's my two cents, er... points:
- The colleges need a way for their instructors to gain firsthand knowledge of the mechanics. - Lecturing or reading about something is very different from experiencing it or participating. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
448
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 18:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sentient Archon wrote:Jetteh22 wrote:I don't think CCP would go for it and I really don't think this is the way to go anyways. It isn't "fair" to all of the other corps out there. Just because D-UNI and a couple of other bigger 'training' corps are known, I'm sure there are a few smaller ones that only have a few members and trying to start out. It wouldn't be fair for them to not get their own free districts.
Also, it would just open up a can of worms because if they were to get to the size of D-UNI they would want their own districts also and so on and so forth. Welp if CCP doesn't do this kitten them. Let the community decide. Like Sextus pointed out;- reach out the the big name corps out there and ask for their support. If they agree, you are secured. Quite honestly if smaller corps want to survive they better be able to field 16 players or join an alliance that could help them out. Either way they have no place owning a district if they cant defend it one way or the other.
To be honest, leaving it in the hands of players to sort out is more CCP's style.
Besides, we wouldn't want any college to get branded with the BoB taint, deserved or not. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
448
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 18:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sentient Archon wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Besides, we wouldn't want any college to get branded with the BoB taint, deserved or not.
I don't get this. I would like to know more about it but it can be done offline.
I honestly don't know the details, but here's the thread that attempted to address it officially:
http://community.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=471868 |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
448
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 19:50:00 -
[16] - Quote
Another version of the Scholarship Planet idea ("Saraswati"?) would be to find one with a lot of districts in a dead-end system way off by itself and to have the Major League corps maintain a few districts each in addition to the colleges.
So, for instance if it was a 19 district planet, maybe each of the Majors holds three, each College holds two, and that would leave four "warzones".
In this scenario, all of the Scholarship Coalition members would have a presence on the planet and be better able to defend it. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
448
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 19:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
3 bird wrote: The problem we have with this model is that no matter how you do it it looks like favouritism from the outside. If your not one of the power blocs we have an agreement with, then you are that much less likly to get D-Uni grads entering your corp. Not because we want our guys to go to a specific corp/alliance in return for the protection, but just through familiarity and interaction.
If our guys talk to you, see you or interact with you more than any other corp it perfectly reasonable for them to want to join your corp when they graduate from D-Uni. But from the outside it looks like we are only training mercs for those surrounding power blocs. Any agreement of this nature would have to completely voluntary on all sides.
In the Scholarship Planet model, if the "war zone" districts, instead of being reserved for the Coalition, are publicly declared "safe to attack" (no retribution), would that maybe increase the likelihood that College students would interact with non-Coalition members?
Addressing my earlier posts:
If there are 13 districts, and each College owns three, that leaves four "war zone" districts. Those could be advertised as being "fair game" to anybody, provided that they not be used to attack the Colleges or another war zone.
Thus, a corp that just wants to attack for the halibut could attack it without worrying about the Major Leaguers coming after their home districts in revenge. Similarly, a no-name corp could attack one to get a foothold from which to attack another planet or just to get some experience- knowing full well that the Colleges are going to come after them (but not pursue off-world). |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
450
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 22:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
Synthetic-Method wrote: Include Districts/Planets in this and this will allow any D-Uni member to participate in P-Conquest with the consent of Director and involved entity.
P.S. For all you people who are saying, "This isn't EvE/ This isn't persistent/ This is Dust it's different" You're in for a rude awakening. Without the ability to do API checks your recruitment process is open to attack. Infact a corp theft has already happened in Dust. So just a word of wisdom here... be ready for the meta because it's comming.
You certainly raise some good points. Though BLUE was an alliance, not a coalition, correct?
I guess my concern is that there are an awful lot of activities one can undertake in EVE outside of conquerable nullsec. Indeed, with the exception of things like erecting a Territorial Claim Unit, you can do just about everything you'd want to learn about in NPC nullsec. Even there, there are plenty of analogs- erecting Sovereignty structures is not much different from erecting other sorts of POSs (Control Towers, POCOs, etc.), many of which you can practice in lowsec or even hisec.
Dust does not have an instrument for practicing many of the aspects of PC in a "controlled" fashion. Sure, a squad of College students could tag along in a corp battle; but, unless that corp is short of bodies, do they really want newberries potentially complicating a vital strategic battle?
If there are multiple College corps, sure, they can still do some kind of Arena battles against each other- though again, this is not likely to resemble PC battles any more than NASCAR resembles Car Wars.
On top of that, there is the inability for College instructors to gain firsthand knowledge of the interfaces and systems so as to be able to teach them to students.
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Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
450
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 23:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote:You guys openly admit to taking in newbies and teaching them how to play, that's going to be too easy a target with so few planets/districts up for grab.
You know we'd gank if for a start, i'm sure other corps here would too. Chances are you'd end up on the defensive 100% from day one.
So then it still comes down to whether the Colleges would actually have the protection of the Major Leaguers or not. After all, a group of gankers could show up and be facing a whole bunch of ringers.
Not to mention the threat of retribution. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
450
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 02:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:[... In other words, I'm open to all and have no political enemies but keep in mind we are a knuckle of the fist.
I'm a hangnail of the fist. |
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Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
450
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Posted - 2013.03.20 03:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mithridates VI wrote:Quote:DUST University also needs a revenue stream other than corp member donations in order to meet some of our training goals. An agreement not to attack your territory amounts to sponsorship from larger corporations. If the requirement to own a planet cannot be justified, why not seek direct sponsorship from the same entities that you want to allow you to coexist with them in PC?
IIRC, ISK transfer except for corp stuff is still off the table for the next build.
That would mean that Dust U and the other Colleges would continue to be left high and dry for the foreseeable future. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
456
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Posted - 2013.03.20 15:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
zeek1227 zeek1227 wrote:Hello zeek1227 zeek1227 here CEO of Blitkrieg Co. (No you don't know us we have like 25 people) Anyway I guess I haven't really been following you guys (I have heard of you but assumed you were a feeder Corp or something) and after reading this post was curious as to what you do exactly? Is it training for your own Corp or for anyone? What's is the curriculum? How is it profitable?
I'm not a rep of Dust U, but they are a part of the Ivy League alliance- Home to EVE University, the game's longest running and most respected training school for new pilots.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Eve_University_(Player_corporation) http://www.eveuniversity.org
They have long been known for their neutrality in nullsec politics/wars and as a feeder for everybody. When I use the term "Colleges" in this thread, I'm referring to Dust U, EVE U and similar corps.
In EVE, though, there are a lot of ways for EVE U to get funding and arrange practice spaces.
There is not presently a set of mechanics in Dust to let the Colleges do that effectively. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
459
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Posted - 2013.03.20 18:01:00 -
[23] - Quote
3 bird wrote:Kain Spero wrote:I'll be in touch with the Dust Uni leadership to discuss. The service that Eve University and, hopefully, Dust University provide to the community warrants some thoughtful discussion. Kain, I greatly appreciate the offer but it is worth stating that we are still discussing our options internally and as such any talk with us at this stage would be flimsy at best. That's not to say don't get in touch but just informing you that we are not ready for serious discussion with outside corps. Also don't believe I thanked you for you grenade tip on twitter, works perfectly. (what even I get bummed at AFK'ers in the MCC )
What's really funny is spawning into a storyline game next to Kain and both of you cook off grenades at the same time. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
460
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Posted - 2013.03.21 02:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Don't forget friendly fire.
No FF in pubs. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
460
|
Posted - 2013.03.21 03:02:00 -
[25] - Quote
3 bird wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote:Don't forget friendly fire.
No FF in pubs. I keep forgetting about that myself, going to be such a game changer. Personally I'm equal parts excited and scared about FF. Excited because its going to make the P.C gameplay just that much more intense and squad co-ordination is going to be insane and scared because, I know I'm going to end up killing my own team and they will be killing me. Still looking forward to it though!
My point was that the Colleges need to be able to teach classes in a FF environment.
Not being able to do so is like limiting an EVE survival course to hisec dangers. You cripple people's understanding of the game if they don't understand things like warp interdiction bubbles, cynos, stealth bombers, etc. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
465
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Posted - 2013.03.21 16:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
Daedric Lothar wrote: I may have really out of date information, but Eve Uni operates out of a station in High Sec right? I wouldn't see any problem with them picking a planet there in their high sec system for doing PC. Not sure how many planets are in that system, but eventually Dust should have all of this. There is a whole universe of content, other corps should find their own place. From what it sounded like in other post the vulnerability timer would be at a set time and you only need to field about 16 people. That sounds like if you come under attack you only field your still tagged Alumni and Seniors and Professors. If anyone claims about you not being neutral, just say. Hey, this is where we live, go fight somewhere else.
Highsec planets are not on the table right now for PC. I wouldn't be surprised if they never are.
Right now, it looks like we are only going to have 250 districts to start with. There is a dev blog thread in the Announcements forum. |
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