TL;DR Shotguns are OP.

TL;DR Shotguns are OP.

Not at all what he said.


I

Reading comprehension. Do you have it?



What he said was,;there's a checks and balances thing going on, the HMG is overpowered in certain situations. Just as the shotgun is Overpowered in other situations and the sniper is in it's own circumstances. In other words: Nothing is over powered, it has an optimal range and usage. There's no point in whining about it....And, I agree with them 100%. BF3 did the same thing....so many people complaining....So, they changed a lot of the weapons, nerfed a lot of their guns. Why? Because people complained so much...the people who didn't have a problem with the stuff...which I'd love to believe was the majority...
obviously weren't on the forums, there was never a voice for the otherside. Just the unwashed masses of whiny, entitled, teenagers who would rather complain for hours on a forum then to spend five minutes thinking of how to overcome the problem....

So, I took away something from that....it's too easy for a vocal minority's pleas to drown out the happy majority's fun.


TL;DR If you can't read a paragraph without a summary, I hate you. I hate everything about you. -You- Are the problem.

The HMG's optimal range and usage is everywhere at all ranges always.

The HMG's optimal range and usage is everywhere at all ranges always.

@ Phoenix
this is quite obvious but the scrubs above us think its perfectly fine

The HMG needs something to happen to it; it just does. I have one corp-mate who is absolutely destroying everyone using it (have a screencap of him going 30/0 using mostly militia stuff, obviously not the HMG

Sure, i use type I assault suit with a GEK 38 (every other module is a militia BPO) and my normal scores are 25/5 going SOLO, BECAUSE the player-base sucks, since I've never gotten more than a 2,5 KDR in any FPS and usually playing w friends. I flank, point and click 90% of the players, and most heavies aren't an exception; get some cover, make sure u expose less than 1/4 of your body and if headshoting you don't even need a full magazine to drop em (ofc there are exceptions, but I'm sure there are lots of ppl way better than me)

So the problem isn't the heavy that can't even chase you if you disengage, it's YOU not disengaging.

The scrubs above you want to keep the weapon as-is, and the all-powerful vets want to nerf it, so their time playing is easier and more akin to their previous CoD experience.


Your logic sucks.

I got it this time

TL;DR Kaserai Mandrag is either really bad at fps' or not an fps player and he expresses his anger at sensible logic by not using logic when he says he uses logic

You want some cheese with that whine?

Seriously...How come everyone else manages to deal with it? I take out heavies by my lonesome with militia gear...Want to know a secret? If you pretend it's not CoD or Halo....And you don't run around like a greased up deaf guy....You use a bit of cover and cook a grenade....They're quite easy to take down. Just don't get caught in the open....


What is it that EVE players are fond of saying??

Adapt or Die. I like that...separates the men from the boys...

The men adapt while the boys...they b*tch on a forum.

The HMG needs something to happen to it; it just does. I have one corp-mate who is absolutely destroying everyone using it (have a screencap of him going 30/0 using mostly militia stuff, obviously not the HMG, and his KDR is something like an 18. His main is a Logi, and he isn't killing things at all like he does with the HMG), and a few others with little Dust experience who do a ton better with the HMG than they do with any other gun.



What do I think needs to happen to the HMG?

Give it the range of an SMG, maybe a little more. That's it; no damage nerf, no RoF nerf, no overheating nerf. Just cut the range. Make it absolutely deadly up close, and only up close. Make people fear getting close to a Heavy, or meeting one around a corner. We shouldn't have to dive for cover when they're 40-60m away like we do now.

EDIT: I have killed more than my fair share of Heavies, not just militia but also those who really know how to spec into the role. I don't just stand there like an idiot when I see one, I get to cover or do my best to keep moving if I can't. But I don't know how many times I've been killed by an HMG at a good range as I sprint to cover, from full health.

CoD? What the heck is that? Oh...you mean the crappy "everybody wins" game that isn't worth $5 yet people pay $60 every year?

There is such a thing as balance, and the HMG does not fit into the balance right now. It is too easy. If anything...the current HMG is more akin to the CoD experience than any other gun...

CoD? What the heck is that? Oh...you mean the crappy "everybody wins" game that isn't worth $5 yet people pay $60 every year?

There is such a thing as balance, and the HMG does not fit into the balance right now. It is too easy. If anything...the current HMG is more akin to the CoD experience than any other gun...

lol...you picked and chose what you quote and use. Keep reading, and you'll see that the person I mentioned uses a LOGI as his main, and can't do nearly as well, kill-wise, as he does with the HMG. Same person, two different loadouts, two different guns...two completely different results.

So, actually read what is written, then respond.

EDIT: Also, read on to what I said about how I react to Heavies...

Everything in the game -shouldn't- be balanced, if everything is perfectly balanced then we just might as well roll dice and see who happens to roll the higher number...

I suppose a lone AR gunner should be able to take down an HAV, right? You know...for the sake of balance...

Right now, the HMG is more akin to an AR with a huge clip, great accuracy, much higher RoF and less damage-per-bullet (which, coupled with the much greater RoF, actually does more DPS than the AR). It needs a change; shortening the range I think is all that needs to be done

oh yeah whyd you chicken out vs us on friday? had a contract v you and you didnt show.

I'll fix it for you:

Right now, the HMG is more akin to an AR with a huge clip, low accuracy, much higher RoF and less damage-per-bullet (which, coupled with the much greater RoF and the much lower accuracy, actually does about the same DPS than the AR but w/o the need to reload every kill or 2). It doesn't need a change; standing alone in front of a heavy is like standing still in front of a LAV just like it should be.

This is also assuming all bullets hit

that's quite an assumption however. as the hmg is hipfire only, it almost CAN'T happen

You're not going to hit every time with the AR either, unless you're at CQC range.

EDIT: Don't forget that ARs actually have a WORSE accuracy rating than the HMGs; 56-58 vs 60-62.

If only half the HMG bullets hit, the HMG still has a greater damage output unless the AR is resupplying (and the AR hits 100% of the time).

but it's POSSIBLE for an AR to have perfect accuracy, you can shoulder it and fire it with very little spread. no matter how good you are with the hmg, you are FORCED to miss at least SOME % of the time.

"Paper is fine, Rock is OP"
-scissors

the bottom line is you're making your assumption based on equivalent hitrates, which is just not sound reasoning due to the nature of the gun.

we could argue over how big a difference this accuracy makes, but there's no number to put on it so we won't get anywhere.

Again, there is NO WAY for either gun to do this "perfect" damage in a 'real-world' setting. The AR can't do it, the HMG can't do it.

This is the theory part of an experiment, a calculation of the maximum (or target) output. You have to actually test things in order to see the "real" values, and you want to see them align with the theory.

The variables of range, skill and accuracy are not being tested here; just damage. To test just damage, you'd almost certainly need to be shooting, in CQC, at a very large and tough target (installations, for example)

Testing range and accuracy, and their effects on damage, is not part of this theory, and is a different beast altogether.

It is bad science to try to test out two (or more) variables in one experiment.

the bottom line is you're making your assumption based on equivalent hitrates, which is just not sound reasoning due to the nature of the gun.

we could argue over how big a difference this accuracy makes, but there's no number to put on it so we won't get anywhere.

Are you saying i'm making an assumption? I've used all guns and i'm not biased. In a game like this guns are always gonna need adjusting. You really think they can just get it right the first time? Or that they should just not try because i'll never be perfect?

Hey Phoenix,

Maybe, just maybe, you could listen to what people are saying, understand that Heavy is supposed to have insanely high damage, get over it, start being good, and then we wouldn't consistently get nerfs from crybabies like you!

Considering me and my BPO equipment do perfectly fine in-game, I don't think the tired old "I really don't have an argument so here's something to hopefully shut you up" "GET GOOD NOOB" applies to me.

I have solid, first-hand experience that tells me that the HMGs need a slight nerf. I think cutting the range, and ONLY the range, making it a short-range champion will be perfect and would help the overal balance tremendously.

I'm no FPS god like some here claim to be. If the gun I was using had something wrong with it, I'd report it and ask for it to be fixed (whether OP or UP, I'd be asking for a fix either way). Right now, the HMG needs a fix, nothing major, but a fix, nonetheless.

But the AR will be significantly CLOSER to 100% of it's potential damage in almost all situations.




then you're suggesting changes to the gun while only a quarter of the "science" is in? STILL not sound reasoning?

Hey Phoenix,

Maybe, just maybe, you could listen to what people are saying, understand that Heavy is supposed to have insanely high damage, get over it, start being good, and then we wouldn't consistently get nerfs from crybabies like you!

the "git gud scrub" argument has never really resolved anything in the entire history of the internet -.-


it really just discredits your "side" of an argument. so yah... thanks.

Make up an experiment to show accuracy's effect on damage. Go ahead, I've got plenty of time to wait for you. I did the damage experiment, the least you can do is make one to support accuracy

Stating the obvious and telling people to "get good" isn't even a point of argument tbh. It's like the people who claimed that the grenades in the last build were fine, because they were grenades, and blew up, and were meant to hurt people. Yes, awesome logic. Swarm launchers a long time ago were also balanced I guess, you know, those are meant to blow up vehicles so why wouldn't it instant own you in a suit?

Except the difference here is that the HMG does exactly what it is supposed to do for the Heavy role. It isn't an accidental "oh ****, that is actually impossible to avoid or counter!!" moment, it's more of a "this weapon was literally designed to do lots of damage and it is only usable by Heavy for a reason."

I got it this time

TL;DR Kaserai Mandrag is either really bad at fps' or not an fps player and he expresses his anger at sensible logic by not using logic when he says he uses logic

I agree it does do what it's supposed to for the heavy role. It completely decimates enemies at close range. Only problem that I see with it is that it also reaches out a bit far. I'd like to point out that when I talk about range, I don't mean accuracy. When I say I'd like to see them take some range off of the HMG for some damage, I'm really only asking them to shorten the range at which HMG bullets do damage. The same way that if you aim at an enemy with a shotgun from a certain distance, even if you're aimed dead on him you won't even scratch him. Forcing people to play in the effective range of their weapon. I feel the HMG is not restricted enough in that way, very close to it but not quite. I'd almost rather see them leave it alone because I doubt they'd make such a subtle change without ruining it.

For example, I assume you've used assault rifles. If you're like me and you like to play with snipers or take pop shots at enemies at long distances, you'll notice that after a certain range even if you shots land on your target it won't do any damage. I'd like to see CCP shorten that range for HMG by 20-30% (which isn't even much, plus you still got sharpshooter skill) so that people can't reach so far with it. Their cone of accuracy would remain the same but shooting enemies so far away wouldn't be possible, in return of course they're even more brutal in CQC.

That being said, most heavies wouldn't even realize this change and honestly it wouldn't change much. I'd rather see them make other changes and improvements before tweaking with the HMG at all, if they do. Bigger squads now CCP, please.

The HMG needs something to happen to it; it just does. I have one corp-mate who is absolutely destroying everyone using it (have a screencap of him going 30/0 using mostly militia stuff, obviously not the HMG, and his KDR is something like an 18. His main is a Logi, and he isn't killing things at all like he does with the HMG), and a few others with little Dust experience who do a ton better with the HMG than they do with any other gun.



What do I think needs to happen to the HMG?

Give it the range of an SMG, maybe a little more. That's it; no damage nerf, no RoF nerf, no overheating nerf. Just cut the range. Make it absolutely deadly up close, and only up close. Make people fear getting close to a Heavy, or meeting one around a corner. We shouldn't have to dive for cover when they're 40-60m away like we do now.

EDIT: I have killed more than my fair share of Heavies, not just militia but also those who really know how to spec into the role. I don't just stand there like an idiot when I see one, I get to cover or do my best to keep moving if I can't. But I don't know how many times I've been killed by an HMG at a good range as I sprint to cover, from full health.

Give it the range of an SMG, maybe a little more. That's it; no damage nerf, no RoF nerf, no overheating nerf. Just cut the range. Make it absolutely deadly up close, and only up close. Make people fear getting close to a Heavy, or meeting one around a corner. We shouldn't have to dive for cover when they're 40-60m away like we do now.
.

CoD? What the heck is that? Oh...you mean the crappy "everybody wins" game that isn't worth $5 yet people pay $60 every year?

There is such a thing as balance, and the HMG does not fit into the balance right now. It is too easy. If anything...the current HMG is more akin to the CoD experience than any other gun...

I don't think that would work. The HMG has its range because the heavy dropsuit makes you move so flippin slow that you have little mobility, Id prefer they take away the sharpshooter skill then reduce its range because if they do reduce your range you have to get closer up and you terribly slow making you fodder.

I find it funny that people aren't even open to the idea of shortening HMGs range and making it more devastating at short range. I play heavy on my secondary guy and always use the HMG, if you don't fix the range I don't care... I'll just continue hitting people from 40+ meters away and laughing. As a heavy I feel I shouldn't even be trying to engage enemies at that range, I should be trying to keep in close quarters and at least the edge of medium range.

People need to remember that this is a beta, it's in beta so the developers can get it straightened out so it can be the way they want when it releases... this means making changes, but since so many people seem so against it, w/e. Doesn't effect me much, I feel the hit to HMGs range and giving it more raw power would only benefit heavy players that play the class properly.

So yeah, whatever, doesn't matter to me but I thought I'd put in my 2 cents. I'll still play heavy regardless.

Stating the obvious and telling people to "get good" isn't even a point of argument tbh. It's like the people who claimed that the grenades in the last build were fine, because they were grenades, and blew up, and were meant to hurt people. Yes, awesome logic. Swarm launchers a long time ago were also balanced I guess, you know, those are meant to blow up vehicles so why wouldn't it instant own you in a suit?

Gameplay is a thing to worry about in games, and balance is essential to that. With that being said I don't feel that the HMG the way it is now is not game breaking at all, I could just see a small tweak being done to it. Knowing developers these days though they'd over do it. That's why I'd be fine with them leaving it alone, I'd rather see it be close to perfect than made worse. If they take away a small amount of something that isn't very relevant (range with HMG) to the class, and they give it a buff in an area that is (damage with HMG) then why would it even be considered a nerf? Almost sounds like a buff to me, especially considering the HMG shoots at 2000 RPM so a damage boost would be quite significant.. especially with damage skills and mods stacked on it lol.

& before some ignoranus tells me to "get good", I usually win my 1v1's with heavies. I know how to take them on and I understand this game, and I also understand game balance and I don't understand how claiming that since something does damage and it kills, that there isn't anything wrong with it. Such a flawed way to look at it IMO, black and white, far left and far right.

Lol why do I even bother, I know where the masses stand xD

I don't think that would work. The HMG has its range because the heavy dropsuit makes you move so flippin slow that you have little mobility, Id prefer they take away the sharpshooter skill then reduce its range because if they do reduce your range you have to get closer up and you terribly slow making you fodder.

I got it this time

TL;DR Kaserai Mandrag is either really bad at fps' or not an fps player and he expresses his anger at sensible logic by not using logic when he says he uses logic

I just hate cries of OP, and think that anyone who cries OP is just being foolish and not actually trying to think things out objectively. They are too self centered and can not be trusted in these types of matters.

I can not think of any gun in DUST that doesn't have a weakness. I can not think of any gun that is OP right now.

I want buffs, not nerfs. Balance by buff.

Sorry but skipped over everything from after the OP...


Don't have much problems with the way heavies are right now except for the fact they can drive. The free LAV makes the movement speed of any heavy non-factor when traveling to objective to objective. Make it so they can be a passenger but not a driver, make them work as a team if a heavy needs to travel over the map, not sure if this should be the same for tanks and DSs but that my .2 isk on balancing heavies.

CoD? What the heck is that? Oh...you mean the crappy "everybody wins" game that isn't worth $5 yet people pay $60 every year?

There is such a thing as balance, and the HMG does not fit into the balance right now. It is too easy. If anything...the current HMG is more akin to the CoD experience than any other gun...

Sorry but skipped over everything from after the OP...


Don't have much problems with the way heavies are right now except for the fact they can drive. The free LAV makes the movement speed of any heavy non-factor when traveling to objective to objective. Make it so they can be a passenger but not a driver, make them work as a team if a heavy needs to travel over the map, not sure if this should be the same for tanks and DSs but that my .2 isk on balancing heavies.

What is it that EVE players are fond of saying??

Adapt or Die. I like that...separates the men from the boys...

The men adapt while the boys...they b*tch on a forum.

Vehicle popcorn?
1 AV grenade and heavy is damaged and a few SMG bullets or HMG bullets and death taxi is deadsville.
Jeeps equal free kills so I need more jeeps being used.

...And then there are those that b*tch on the forums about the people b*tching on the forums, are they men or boys?

Oh, and then there's people like me, who b*tch about the people b*tching about the people b*tching on the forums. It's becoming recursive... Will it ever end!!!! fuuuuuuuuu....... -> [blackhole]

Are you really going to try to say "since we can't test everything at once, leave everything the way it is"?

Make up an experiment to show accuracy's effect on damage. Go ahead, I've got plenty of time to wait for you. I did the damage experiment, the least you can do is make one to support accuracy

As I learned in Battlefield, if the only people that have a voice are the ones complaining....then that's the voice the reaches the Dev's ears.

Thankfully, the people who are whining about weapons being over-powered don't seem to be the majority. The ranks seem to be evenly divided, or even leaning against them.

Well, if you happen to have a AV grenade on you..

Or else get mowed down lol.

My usual route with heavies is just cooking a grenade and moving back while zig zagging, throw the grenade at their feet and aim at the head.

Very valid point. Bf3 did turn in to a mess. I only ever play that to fly helis these days. anyway, I just made a funny, there you gone and screwed it up with your logic....

Every fit has AV grenades since bullets do the rest for just suits.

Give things time. Too many new players running around in paper-thin militia crap right now. The HMG was fine last build, it just feels OP now because we all had to start from scratch and a lot of peeps can't survive that initial OMG it's a heavy, crap I'm dead moments that all militia gear with little to no skills in shield boosters and such will be experiencing in the short term.

Leave it alone, give people time to actually train into fits and then evaluate. Also, tactics, cover, blah, blah, blahdity blah, etc.

I got it this time

TL;DR Kaserai Mandrag is either really bad at fps' or not an fps player and he expresses his anger at sensible logic by not using logic when he says he uses logic

The HMG needs something to happen to it; it just does. I have one corp-mate who is absolutely destroying everyone using it (have a screencap of him going 30/0 using mostly militia stuff, obviously not the HMG, and his KDR is something like an 18. His main is a Logi, and he isn't killing things at all like he does with the HMG), and a few others with little Dust experience who do a ton better with the HMG than they do with any other gun.



What do I think needs to happen to the HMG?

Give it the range of an SMG, maybe a little more. That's it; no damage nerf, no RoF nerf, no overheating nerf. Just cut the range. Make it absolutely deadly up close, and only up close. Make people fear getting close to a Heavy, or meeting one around a corner. We shouldn't have to dive for cover when they're 40-60m away like we do now.

EDIT: I have killed more than my fair share of Heavies, not just militia but also those who really know how to spec into the role. I don't just stand there like an idiot when I see one, I get to cover or do my best to keep moving if I can't. But I don't know how many times I've been killed by an HMG at a good range as I sprint to cover, from full health.

TL;DR Shotguns are OP.