"Paper is fine, Rock is OP"
-scissors

the bottom line is you're making your assumption based on equivalent hitrates, which is just not sound reasoning due to the nature of the gun.

we could argue over how big a difference this accuracy makes, but there's no number to put on it so we won't get anywhere.

Again, there is NO WAY for either gun to do this "perfect" damage in a 'real-world' setting. The AR can't do it, the HMG can't do it.

This is the theory part of an experiment, a calculation of the maximum (or target) output. You have to actually test things in order to see the "real" values, and you want to see them align with the theory.

The variables of range, skill and accuracy are not being tested here; just damage. To test just damage, you'd almost certainly need to be shooting, in CQC, at a very large and tough target (installations, for example)

Testing range and accuracy, and their effects on damage, is not part of this theory, and is a different beast altogether.

It is bad science to try to test out two (or more) variables in one experiment.

the bottom line is you're making your assumption based on equivalent hitrates, which is just not sound reasoning due to the nature of the gun.

we could argue over how big a difference this accuracy makes, but there's no number to put on it so we won't get anywhere.

Are you saying i'm making an assumption? I've used all guns and i'm not biased. In a game like this guns are always gonna need adjusting. You really think they can just get it right the first time? Or that they should just not try because i'll never be perfect?

Hey Phoenix,

Maybe, just maybe, you could listen to what people are saying, understand that Heavy is supposed to have insanely high damage, get over it, start being good, and then we wouldn't consistently get nerfs from crybabies like you!

Considering me and my BPO equipment do perfectly fine in-game, I don't think the tired old "I really don't have an argument so here's something to hopefully shut you up" "GET GOOD NOOB" applies to me.

I have solid, first-hand experience that tells me that the HMGs need a slight nerf. I think cutting the range, and ONLY the range, making it a short-range champion will be perfect and would help the overal balance tremendously.

I'm no FPS god like some here claim to be. If the gun I was using had something wrong with it, I'd report it and ask for it to be fixed (whether OP or UP, I'd be asking for a fix either way). Right now, the HMG needs a fix, nothing major, but a fix, nonetheless.

But the AR will be significantly CLOSER to 100% of it's potential damage in almost all situations.




then you're suggesting changes to the gun while only a quarter of the "science" is in? STILL not sound reasoning?

Hey Phoenix,

Maybe, just maybe, you could listen to what people are saying, understand that Heavy is supposed to have insanely high damage, get over it, start being good, and then we wouldn't consistently get nerfs from crybabies like you!

the "git gud scrub" argument has never really resolved anything in the entire history of the internet -.-


it really just discredits your "side" of an argument. so yah... thanks.

Make up an experiment to show accuracy's effect on damage. Go ahead, I've got plenty of time to wait for you. I did the damage experiment, the least you can do is make one to support accuracy

Stating the obvious and telling people to "get good" isn't even a point of argument tbh. It's like the people who claimed that the grenades in the last build were fine, because they were grenades, and blew up, and were meant to hurt people. Yes, awesome logic. Swarm launchers a long time ago were also balanced I guess, you know, those are meant to blow up vehicles so why wouldn't it instant own you in a suit?

Except the difference here is that the HMG does exactly what it is supposed to do for the Heavy role. It isn't an accidental "oh ****, that is actually impossible to avoid or counter!!" moment, it's more of a "this weapon was literally designed to do lots of damage and it is only usable by Heavy for a reason."

I got it this time

TL;DR Kaserai Mandrag is either really bad at fps' or not an fps player and he expresses his anger at sensible logic by not using logic when he says he uses logic

I agree it does do what it's supposed to for the heavy role. It completely decimates enemies at close range. Only problem that I see with it is that it also reaches out a bit far. I'd like to point out that when I talk about range, I don't mean accuracy. When I say I'd like to see them take some range off of the HMG for some damage, I'm really only asking them to shorten the range at which HMG bullets do damage. The same way that if you aim at an enemy with a shotgun from a certain distance, even if you're aimed dead on him you won't even scratch him. Forcing people to play in the effective range of their weapon. I feel the HMG is not restricted enough in that way, very close to it but not quite. I'd almost rather see them leave it alone because I doubt they'd make such a subtle change without ruining it.

For example, I assume you've used assault rifles. If you're like me and you like to play with snipers or take pop shots at enemies at long distances, you'll notice that after a certain range even if you shots land on your target it won't do any damage. I'd like to see CCP shorten that range for HMG by 20-30% (which isn't even much, plus you still got sharpshooter skill) so that people can't reach so far with it. Their cone of accuracy would remain the same but shooting enemies so far away wouldn't be possible, in return of course they're even more brutal in CQC.

That being said, most heavies wouldn't even realize this change and honestly it wouldn't change much. I'd rather see them make other changes and improvements before tweaking with the HMG at all, if they do. Bigger squads now CCP, please.

The HMG needs something to happen to it; it just does. I have one corp-mate who is absolutely destroying everyone using it (have a screencap of him going 30/0 using mostly militia stuff, obviously not the HMG, and his KDR is something like an 18. His main is a Logi, and he isn't killing things at all like he does with the HMG), and a few others with little Dust experience who do a ton better with the HMG than they do with any other gun.



What do I think needs to happen to the HMG?

Give it the range of an SMG, maybe a little more. That's it; no damage nerf, no RoF nerf, no overheating nerf. Just cut the range. Make it absolutely deadly up close, and only up close. Make people fear getting close to a Heavy, or meeting one around a corner. We shouldn't have to dive for cover when they're 40-60m away like we do now.

EDIT: I have killed more than my fair share of Heavies, not just militia but also those who really know how to spec into the role. I don't just stand there like an idiot when I see one, I get to cover or do my best to keep moving if I can't. But I don't know how many times I've been killed by an HMG at a good range as I sprint to cover, from full health.

Give it the range of an SMG, maybe a little more. That's it; no damage nerf, no RoF nerf, no overheating nerf. Just cut the range. Make it absolutely deadly up close, and only up close. Make people fear getting close to a Heavy, or meeting one around a corner. We shouldn't have to dive for cover when they're 40-60m away like we do now.
.

CoD? What the heck is that? Oh...you mean the crappy "everybody wins" game that isn't worth $5 yet people pay $60 every year?

There is such a thing as balance, and the HMG does not fit into the balance right now. It is too easy. If anything...the current HMG is more akin to the CoD experience than any other gun...

I don't think that would work. The HMG has its range because the heavy dropsuit makes you move so flippin slow that you have little mobility, Id prefer they take away the sharpshooter skill then reduce its range because if they do reduce your range you have to get closer up and you terribly slow making you fodder.

I find it funny that people aren't even open to the idea of shortening HMGs range and making it more devastating at short range. I play heavy on my secondary guy and always use the HMG, if you don't fix the range I don't care... I'll just continue hitting people from 40+ meters away and laughing. As a heavy I feel I shouldn't even be trying to engage enemies at that range, I should be trying to keep in close quarters and at least the edge of medium range.

People need to remember that this is a beta, it's in beta so the developers can get it straightened out so it can be the way they want when it releases... this means making changes, but since so many people seem so against it, w/e. Doesn't effect me much, I feel the hit to HMGs range and giving it more raw power would only benefit heavy players that play the class properly.

So yeah, whatever, doesn't matter to me but I thought I'd put in my 2 cents. I'll still play heavy regardless.

Stating the obvious and telling people to "get good" isn't even a point of argument tbh. It's like the people who claimed that the grenades in the last build were fine, because they were grenades, and blew up, and were meant to hurt people. Yes, awesome logic. Swarm launchers a long time ago were also balanced I guess, you know, those are meant to blow up vehicles so why wouldn't it instant own you in a suit?

Gameplay is a thing to worry about in games, and balance is essential to that. With that being said I don't feel that the HMG the way it is now is not game breaking at all, I could just see a small tweak being done to it. Knowing developers these days though they'd over do it. That's why I'd be fine with them leaving it alone, I'd rather see it be close to perfect than made worse. If they take away a small amount of something that isn't very relevant (range with HMG) to the class, and they give it a buff in an area that is (damage with HMG) then why would it even be considered a nerf? Almost sounds like a buff to me, especially considering the HMG shoots at 2000 RPM so a damage boost would be quite significant.. especially with damage skills and mods stacked on it lol.

& before some ignoranus tells me to "get good", I usually win my 1v1's with heavies. I know how to take them on and I understand this game, and I also understand game balance and I don't understand how claiming that since something does damage and it kills, that there isn't anything wrong with it. Such a flawed way to look at it IMO, black and white, far left and far right.

Lol why do I even bother, I know where the masses stand xD

I don't think that would work. The HMG has its range because the heavy dropsuit makes you move so flippin slow that you have little mobility, Id prefer they take away the sharpshooter skill then reduce its range because if they do reduce your range you have to get closer up and you terribly slow making you fodder.

I got it this time

TL;DR Kaserai Mandrag is either really bad at fps' or not an fps player and he expresses his anger at sensible logic by not using logic when he says he uses logic