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Phoenix Archer 128
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Posted - 2013.01.27 15:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
The HMG needs something to happen to it; it just does. I have one corp-mate who is absolutely destroying everyone using it (have a screencap of him going 30/0 using mostly militia stuff, obviously not the HMG, and his KDR is something like an 18. His main is a Logi, and he isn't killing things at all like he does with the HMG), and a few others with little Dust experience who do a ton better with the HMG than they do with any other gun.
What do I think needs to happen to the HMG?
Give it the range of an SMG, maybe a little more. That's it; no damage nerf, no RoF nerf, no overheating nerf. Just cut the range. Make it absolutely deadly up close, and only up close. Make people fear getting close to a Heavy, or meeting one around a corner. We shouldn't have to dive for cover when they're 40-60m away like we do now.
EDIT: I have killed more than my fair share of Heavies, not just militia but also those who really know how to spec into the role. I don't just stand there like an idiot when I see one, I get to cover or do my best to keep moving if I can't. But I don't know how many times I've been killed by an HMG at a good range as I sprint to cover, from full health. |
Phoenix Archer 128
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Posted - 2013.01.27 16:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Lasarte Ioni wrote:Phoenix Archer 128 wrote:The HMG needs something to happen to it; it just does. I have one corp-mate who is absolutely destroying everyone using it (have a screencap of him going 30/0 using mostly militia stuff, obviously not the HMG Sure, i use type I assault suit with a GEK 38 (every other module is a militia BPO) and my normal scores are 25/5 going SOLO, BECAUSE the player-base sucks, since I've never gotten more than a 2,5 KDR in any FPS and usually playing w friends. I flank, point and click 90% of the players, and most heavies aren't an exception; get some cover, make sure u expose less than 1/4 of your body and if headshoting you don't even need a full magazine to drop em (ofc there are exceptions, but I'm sure there are lots of ppl way better than me) So the problem isn't the heavy that can't even chase you if you disengage, it's YOU not disengaging.
lol...you picked and chose what you quote and use. Keep reading, and you'll see that the person I mentioned uses a LOGI as his main, and can't do nearly as well, kill-wise, as he does with the HMG. Same person, two different loadouts, two different guns...two completely different results.
So, actually read what is written, then respond.
EDIT: Also, read on to what I said about how I react to Heavies... |
Phoenix Archer 128
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Posted - 2013.01.27 16:53:00 -
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DRAlgernop Krieger wrote:Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote:@ Phoenix
this is quite obvious but the scrubs above us think its perfectly fine The scrubs above you want to keep the weapon as-is, and the all-powerful vets want to nerf it, so their time playing is easier and more akin to their previous CoD experience. Your logic sucks.
CoD? What the heck is that? Oh...you mean the crappy "everybody wins" game that isn't worth $5 yet people pay $60 every year?
There is such a thing as balance, and the HMG does not fit into the balance right now. It is too easy. If anything...the current HMG is more akin to the CoD experience than any other gun... |
Phoenix Archer 128
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Posted - 2013.01.27 17:22:00 -
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DRAlgernop Krieger wrote:Phoenix Archer 128 wrote:DRAlgernop Krieger wrote:Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote:@ Phoenix
this is quite obvious but the scrubs above us think its perfectly fine The scrubs above you want to keep the weapon as-is, and the all-powerful vets want to nerf it, so their time playing is easier and more akin to their previous CoD experience. Your logic sucks. CoD? What the heck is that? Oh...you mean the crappy "everybody wins" game that isn't worth $5 yet people pay $60 every year? There is such a thing as balance, and the HMG does not fit into the balance right now. It is too easy. If anything...the current HMG is more akin to the CoD experience than any other gun... Everything in the game -shouldn't- be balanced, if everything is perfectly balanced then we just might as well roll dice and see who happens to roll the higher number... I suppose a lone AR gunner should be able to take down an HAV, right? You know...for the sake of balance...
lol...Balance isn't "everything should be able to take out everything else"...far from it. But since that's what you think balance means, I doubt I'll be able to change your mind, no matter how wrong you are. Balance does not mean "equality", which is what a lot of people (inaccurately) think.
Balance is important for the life of games. It just is. To say "we can't balance the game, so deal with it" is just wrong, and will shorten the game's life very fast.
A lone AR guy shouldn't be able to take out a lone Heavy unless the AR guy has the jump on the Heavy, but, the lone Heavy shouldn't be able to use an HMG near or at the edge of an AR's range with great effect (what it can, currently). The HMG has shorter range, it is a fairly inaccurate suppression weapon; its role is to take out enemies at close range or, at range, dissuade them from shooting at his (the HMG's) nearby allies. He will not do a lot of killing at range, yet...that happens a lot with the current HMG.
Right now, the HMG is more akin to an AR with a huge clip, great accuracy, much higher RoF and less damage-per-bullet (which, coupled with the much greater RoF, actually does more DPS than the AR). It needs a change; shortening the range I think is all that needs to be done |
Phoenix Archer 128
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Posted - 2013.01.27 17:29:00 -
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theschizogenious wrote:
oh yeah whyd you chicken out vs us on friday? had a contract v you and you didnt show.
Got proof?
Never saw it, and I don't know any of us who did. Never heard anything on any of our channels, nor our website. |
Phoenix Archer 128
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Posted - 2013.01.27 17:45:00 -
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Lasarte Ioni wrote:Phoenix Archer 128 wrote:
Right now, the HMG is more akin to an AR with a huge clip, great accuracy, much higher RoF and less damage-per-bullet (which, coupled with the much greater RoF, actually does more DPS than the AR). It needs a change; shortening the range I think is all that needs to be done
I'll fix it for you: Right now, the HMG is more akin to an AR with a huge clip, low accuracy, much higher RoF and less damage-per-bullet (which, coupled with the much greater RoF and the much lower accuracy, actually does about the same DPS than the AR but w/o the need to reload every kill or 2). It doesn't need a change; standing alone in front of a heavy is like standing still in front of a LAV just like it should be.
Let's do some math, shall we? This is also assuming all bullets hit, no extra skills to modify the base stats, Standard weapons.
In a minute, an HMG can fire 1,275 rounds (with reloads factored in), for a maximum damage of 20,400.
In the same time, and AR can fire 540 bullets (with reloads factored in) for a maximum damage of 16,740. (however, due to the maximum capacity of the AR being at 300, the real damage is going to be 9,300, less than half the HMG's)
4,000 damage between the two, almost a fifth of the HMG output (11,100 difference, more than half, without resupplying the AR), is not a little bit of extra damage...
And for DPS...HMG has 340 DPS, the AR has ~278.3 DPS (155 DPS without resupplying). I'd say that's a significant difference. |
Phoenix Archer 128
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Posted - 2013.01.27 17:51:00 -
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Buzzwords wrote:Phoenix Archer 128 wrote:This is also assuming all bullets hit that's quite an assumption however. as the hmg is hipfire only, it almost CAN'T happen
You're not going to hit every time with the AR either, unless you're at CQC range.
EDIT: Don't forget that ARs actually have a WORSE accuracy rating than the HMGs; 56-58 vs 60-62.
If only half the HMG bullets hit, the HMG still has a greater damage output unless the AR is resupplying. |
Phoenix Archer 128
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Posted - 2013.01.27 18:02:00 -
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Buzzwords wrote:Phoenix Archer 128 wrote:Buzzwords wrote:Phoenix Archer 128 wrote:This is also assuming all bullets hit that's quite an assumption however. as the hmg is hipfire only, it almost CAN'T happen You're not going to hit every time with the AR either, unless you're at CQC range. EDIT: Don't forget that ARs actually have a WORSE accuracy rating than the HMGs; 56-58 vs 60-62. If only half the HMG bullets hit, the HMG still has a greater damage output unless the AR is resupplying (and the AR hits 100% of the time). but it's POSSIBLE for an AR to have perfect accuracy, you can shoulder it and fire it with very little spread. no matter how good you are with the hmg, you are FORCED to miss at least SOME % of the time.
Did you also notice I excluded the "mandatory" buffs to the weapons? Like the different base Weaponry effects?
Also, there is no way you can fire, and hit perfectly, for that much damage in the time-frame (one minute) regardless of the weapon, at least against troops. But...if you're shooting at an installation or tank (that isn't firing back), you're going to have nearly all your bullets hit just due to the fact that its a pretty big target.
And I never specified a range; if its 5m, I'd say most bullets are going to hit, regardless of the gun. At max range...the AR is still going to miss some if firing full-auto (which it has to under this circumstance). And to be fair, both have to be hipfiring. |
Phoenix Archer 128
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Posted - 2013.01.27 18:15:00 -
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Buzzwords wrote:the bottom line is you're making your assumption based on equivalent hitrates, which is just not sound reasoning due to the nature of the gun.
we could argue over how big a difference this accuracy makes, but there's no number to put on it so we won't get anywhere.
Again, there is NO WAY for either gun to do this "perfect" damage in a 'real-world' setting. The AR can't do it, the HMG can't do it.
This is the theory part of an experiment, a calculation of the maximum (or target) output. You have to actually test things in order to see the "real" values, and you want to see them align with the theory.
The variables of range, skill and accuracy are not being tested here; just damage. To test just damage, you'd almost certainly need to be shooting, in CQC, at a very large and tough target (installations, for example)
Testing range and accuracy, and their effects on damage, is not part of this theory, and is a different beast altogether.
It is bad science to try to test out two (or more) variables in one experiment. |
Phoenix Archer 128
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Posted - 2013.01.27 18:32:00 -
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Vellcano wrote:Hey Phoenix,
Maybe, just maybe, you could listen to what people are saying, understand that Heavy is supposed to have insanely high damage, get over it, start being good, and then we wouldn't consistently get nerfs from crybabies like you!
Considering me and my BPO equipment do perfectly fine in-game, I don't think the tired old "I really don't have an argument so here's something to hopefully shut you up" "GET GOOD NOOB" applies to me.
I have solid, first-hand experience that tells me that the HMGs need a slight nerf. I think cutting the range, and ONLY the range, making it a short-range champion will be perfect and would help the overal balance tremendously.
I'm no FPS god like some here claim to be. If the gun I was using had something wrong with it, I'd report it and ask for it to be fixed (whether OP or UP, I'd be asking for a fix either way). Right now, the HMG needs a fix, nothing major, but a fix, nonetheless. |
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Phoenix Archer 128
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Posted - 2013.01.27 18:37:00 -
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Buzzwords wrote:Phoenix Archer 128 wrote:Buzzwords wrote:the bottom line is you're making your assumption based on equivalent hitrates, which is just not sound reasoning due to the nature of the gun.
we could argue over how big a difference this accuracy makes, but there's no number to put on it so we won't get anywhere. Again, there is NO WAY for either gun to do this "perfect" damage in a 'real-world' setting. The AR can't do it, the HMG can't do it. But the AR will be significantly CLOSER to 100% of it's potential damage in almost all situations. Phoenix Archer 128 wrote:This is the theory part of an experiment, a calculation of the maximum (or target) output. You have to actually test things in order to see the "real" values, and you want to see them align with the theory.
The variables of range, skill and accuracy are not being tested here; just damage. To test just damage, you'd almost certainly need to be shooting, in CQC, at a very large and tough target (installations, for example)
Testing range and accuracy, and their effects on damage, is not part of this theory, and is a different beast altogether.
It is bad science to try to test out two (or more) variables in one experiment. then you're suggesting changes to the gun while only a quarter of the "science" is in? STILL not sound reasoning?
Are you really going to try to say "since we can't test everything at once, leave everything the way it is"?
Make up an experiment to show accuracy's effect on damage. Go ahead, I've got plenty of time to wait for you. I did the damage experiment, the least you can do is make one to support accuracy |
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