Lots of bla bla bla

Let this be a response to both Caeli and Zitro, because you two basically said the same thing.

You are talking about the small amount of SP we currently have? That's weird, it seems like you wouldn't be able to skill up into ALL proto mods by now, either. OH WAIT! You just admitted you were lying about that, Zitro, so why should I take anything you say verbatim anymore?
Let me say it again, since you didn't get it before Caeli: You can't deny reality because you don't like me. Let me spell this out for you....
Since Zitro said armor tanks, I will use Somas and Madrugars as an example.

Soma
Base Shield=690
Base Armor=2230
210 CPU
2540 PG
2 high power slots
4 low power slots

Madrugar
Base Shield=900
Base Armor=2900
210 CPU
2690 PG
2 high power slots
5 low power slots

I can't expect you to figure this out on your own, so that's 880 more combined health points already. But if you had half a brain, even you would have figured out to skill up Field Mechanics to 5 by now.
So with that maxed out it is actually 1047 more combined points, 837 of that being armor. The best 60mm plates will only get you 780 armor, so the Madrugar starts the game 1-0. But what If I equip two 60mm plates you ask. well if you wanted to do that, you would be a complete moron seeing as how you would be so slow you wouldn't be able to get away from those AV grenade spammers that this whole thread was SUPPOSED to be about, same goes for 120mm plates and 180mm. (but maybe that's why you were complaining about them, because you were stupid enough to use multiple armor plates on your tank, but I digress)
The difference in PG is 150, but once again, if you had half a brain you would still know to max out Combat Engineering. So then the difference is 187 PG. This PG is incredibly useful for that 5th low slot, on which you can equip armor plates, resistance mods, armor hardeners, or anything that might give you a significant advantage over militia tanks. But I have proto and you have no more than advanced, you are saying now.
First, my Madrugar has a natural armor boost of more than the best 60mm plate, which I can still use because it only requires level 2 Armor Upgrades. I am currently doing better than you. You equip the best resistance plate, guess what, it only takes level 3 Armor Adaptation to get that, I can afford it on my Madrugar. So now you equip the best armor repper. The best repper only takes level 3 Armor Repair Systems, I can afford that as well. So your fourth slot is up for grabs. Depending on how you play, that is what you will pick. I would personally go for an armor hardener, so let's look at that, shall we? Oh look! That only takes level 1 Armor Adaptation. I can afford it. So we currently have the same mods and I have a natural boost on your armor and another slot to use. Who's winning? Madrugar goes 999-0
Ok, you are saying, but you forgot turrets. Alright, I can now afford to use a standard, and as Zitro mentioned earlier, he uses an advanced. You got me there buddy, look now it's 999-1.
High slots. Alright, you have the skills to get, what? A shield extender? That won't even make up for my natural 1047 boost over you, let alone put you ahead of me.
Small turrets? Couldn't give less of a damn. You can have that point, 999-2

So yeah, Caeli, you beat the standards you meet, but who's to say they bothered to actually plan out their skills like I did just now? They probably flew by the seat of their pants and skilled into whatever they wanted at the time. You can now officially call yourself the king of tank pubbies, enjoy your title.


But hey, this was a post about AV grenades, right? F*cking trolls.

P.S. Protoman, I'm glad you said that, because I almost forgot to mention, skill plays a factor in this game as well, so there's also a case to be made whether those standard tanks you beat had half a brain themselves, if so, then you can call yourself the king of mentally handicapped tank pubbies, Caeli.

Anything else to tell me, I will gladly tell you to shove it up your a*s, because you can't deny what I said just because you don't like me. Deja vu.

So you want to bo by the numbers

So lets so most people doing well on sp are going to be around 700k sp

to get your standard tank unlocked you have to have spent 380k sp
so 700k- 380k-200k you start out with equals 120k sp left to spend that leaves me short of hybrid turrets which means i have to run militant which only does 89 dps per shot compared to the 115 i can do with a standard scattered blaster. Also you have a extra 4 cpu and 100 pg that the militant blaster requires for fitting. If you choose to put your SP into here you can fit better small turrets but then for go on skills needed to tank better.

gunnlogi CPU 330 PG 1805 Shield HP 2000
sica CPU 310 PG 1805 Shield HP 2600

Oh man you saying I just saved myself 100 PG going

I am going to go with shield tanks because that is what I run but armor is very simular you have a couple options you can buff out your pg cpu skills which is usually needed to fit the better gear. Oh but if you spend your points here you do not have the better gear. You can spend SP into protoing out your shield extenders but oh ya you can not fit them with a militant blaster because it takes up to much PG and well you do not have the PG skills to needed to fit it.

So what does that mean your gunlogi is stuck fitting shield extenders that give 1710 each if you can fit 2 of them with how poor your skills are.
While I can fit extenders that give 2185 per extender plus a blaster that does 33 more damage per shot if you count skills in also

so on my sica I can hit 6370 my sica I use 1 10% mode on and get 6570
on the gunlogi saying a gunlogi gets lucky and can fit 2 1710 extenders he gets 6020 then he is uses 3 10% damage modes which only protect the base hull so he will gain a extra HP because they only give 780 HP for the base 2600 so he has a total of 6800 HP
So that means the gunlogi only has 230 more HP then my sica while I put out almost 28% more damge then he does and he only has 3.5% more health then me.

Looks like Caeli wins again. :)

A little handheld device doing 2k damage to armor tanks... Yep nothing wrong with that when you can just throw 3 in about 3 seconds

I'm not that good at hide and seek. So where is the balance between tanks and av? How about difference in gear? Can someone help me find it

So you want to go by the numbers

So lets so most people doing well on sp are going to be around 700k sp

To get your standard tank unlocked you have to have spent 380k sp
so 700k- 380k-200k you start out with equals 120k sp left to spend that leaves me short of hybrid turrets which means i have to run militant which only does 89 dps per shot compared to the 115 i can do with a standard scattered blaster. Also you have a extra 4 cpu and 100 pg that the militant blaster requires for fitting. If you choose to put your SP into here you can fit better small turrets but then for go on skills needed to tank better.

gunnlogi CPU 330 PG 1805 Shield HP 2000
sica CPU 310 PG 1805 Shield HP 2600

Oh man you saying I just saved myself 100 PG going into standard blasters and gain tons of damage.

I am going to go with shield tanks because that is what I run but armor is very simular you have a couple options you can buff out your pg cpu skills which is usually needed to fit the better gear. Oh but if you spend your points here you do not have the better gear. You can spend SP into protoing out your shield extenders but oh ya you can not fit them with a militant blaster because it takes up to much PG and well you do not have the PG skills to needed to fit it.

So what does that mean your gunlogi is stuck fitting shield extenders that give 1710 each if you can fit 2 of them with how poor your skills are.
While I can fit extenders that give 2185 per extender plus a blaster that does 33 more damage per shot if you count skills in also

so on my sica I can hit 6370 my sica I use 1 10% mode on and get 6570
on the gunlogi saying a gunlogi gets lucky and can fit 2 1710 extenders he gets 6020 then he is uses 3 10% damage modes which only protect the base hull so he will gain a extra HP because they only give 780 HP for the base 2600 so he has a total of 6800 HP
So that means the gunlogi only has 230 more HP then my sica while I put out almost 28% more damge then he does and he only has 3.5% more health then me.

Looks like Caeli wins again. :)

some more facts for you lvl 3 resist skill on armor and shields cost 217k sp alone not including lvl 1 and 2

lvl 3 shield extenders and armor extenders cost 87k sp alone meaning getting it proto out will cost the remains of your 120k sp
Booster mods are the same

getting standard large blasater turrets you need to spend 156k sp into small first meaning your 120k is not even enough to achieve first lvl of blasters let alone the 75k total needed to get into the standard lvl large scattered blaster.

Remember these results are going to be very simular for for soma/madrugar cases.

Wrong proto av OHK all kinds of LAVs.... HAVs don't feel like tanks they feel like slow moving death traps waiting to find an ambush

I didn't read any of what you said and decided to write an essay that has nothing to do with what you just said, ignoring all your facts.

and this is why you should just stop talking^ this guy just went to school on you....i hope you taking notes :/

Why do av grenades do more damage to armor than shields, should it not be a grenade that deal equal damage to all vehicles? CCP can you explain your hate towards armor?

I think this is supposed to be based on the type of damage the AV nades do, which I believe is kinetic which is the same for swarms. There is no love for armor right now, it takes more skill to use and there is nothing but draw backs for it.

Why do av grenades do more damage to armor than shields, should it not be a grenade that deal equal damage to all vehicles? CCP can you explain your hate towards armor?

That is why shields need drawbacks (which I am I high leaning towards) or my armor stuff gets more health

This is quickly becoming a "classic" thread, so I will try to put this down before it is buried under thousands of argument comments between the AV people and the HAV pilots.

You can't be asking for balance before anyone has gotten to standard tanks yet, the AV grenade is a standard piece of equipment, and the tanks in use currently are militia, so it is hardly a comparison. A standard locus grenade can OHK militia heavies, so you should be so lucky that three standard AV grenades will only severely damage your militia tank.

Yes alldin you mean the guy in the imperfects that is constantly surrounded by team mates and doesnt advance unless hes sure the coast is clear? That alldin? Cause im talking about applying a solo aspect. You know, without support and actually moving where youre needed as opposed to where the infantry is to support your tank.

They may not be for bogarding and taking control of a map. However i should have 0 issues taking out a guy with a swarm launcher 10 feet in front of me. Kind of the point of you know, the big ass gun, the armor, the mass, the repair modules, you know...the tank. Hell even when a tank hits next to its targets in present day the pressure waves generated from impact can severely damage the nervous system.

I can only imagine in the future those effects would get greater.

By the way shield tanks can retreat much faster then armor tanks to begin with. Shield tanks are hit and run. Basically just food if they try to brawl with an armor tank head on with no support.

As it stands it takes 1 infantry to take out 1 tank. They hide better, can climb into areas tanks cant get to, and can cut distances in half by climbing over hills. Tanks may take more then one shot to kill, but tanks, especially armor tanks, cannot exit an area quickly enough. To avoid the shots. Most swarm launchers get both shots off before i can even turn a corner in my Madruger.

Theres alot of solutions i could offer to fix this, but the primary one seems to be to make armor tanks have a natural damage resistance. Make it like 10% to all damage. Except of course to the tanks shields. The bonus a shield tank obtains could be 10% bonus to fire rate of turrets, or perhaps to turret cool down.

Armor tanks should have higher health and more resistance considering their primary role is to be in the thick of battle. Shield tanks should receive the turret bonus do to their aspects. Faster and they have **** quick shield regain. It will offset alot of the weaknesses put onto the tanks.

At the same time AV weaponry can maintain their pace. Militia weaponry is available for all to use, but its kind of messed up that i spend 500k isk on a madruger fitting and you destroy it for free, Atleast that easily.

Hmmm....Alldin hasn't posted at all about this. When I played against him he seemed to do just fine against all the forge gunners and militia swarmers. I don't quite get how you're having such a hard time? Maybe take lessons from him?

A Surya having 26,000+ Armor HP by activating all modules is hard to take down right?

Yes alldin you mean the guy in the imperfects that is constantly surrounded by team mates and doesnt advance unless hes sure the coast is clear? That alldin? Cause im talking about applying a solo aspect. You know, without support and actually moving where youre needed as opposed to where the infantry is to support your tank.

If youre going to be carried by your team mates your whole life whats the point of you investing any SP into an individual soldier? There is none, you might as all pull a russia and just flood enemy positions with militia fits and lose the moral war. Atleast you won the battle though right?

Point being if you rely too much on others you become soft. My tank should not be outmatched by some ass on foot never has been the case in history unless guerrilla tactics were used and that was if the person remained out of sight and unseen.

Eh, I've been spending most of my SP on core skills and HMG skills. I'd love to tangle with your tank once I get my Forge fit back up and running though