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Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.09.02 01:39:00 - [91] - Quote Ignatius Crumwald wrote: Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Again i agree with the pair of you, but my original comment wasn't exactly aimed at you two either, for a start you can both string a sentence together but i think you both knew that and just jumped on me. heh. Because to an extent I agree with many of them and want to see them get what they're asking for here. But in the real world, people who act like a lot of people here have been acting get arrested and thrown in a cell for a night, why should they be treated any differently here because it's the internet?.. They should still know how to approach people and talk about a subject in a reasonable manner, we'd all get much better results that way.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.02 01:42:00 - [92] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Next time someone from CCP is in IRC can you ask for a bigger ISD presence on these forums? Normally i complain about ISD on the EVEO forums but i think they could be a hell of a lot of use here. Do we even have isd here?... there is only one STAR and hes there on unoffical business.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.09.02 01:45:00 - [93] - Quote I've not seen any ISD but i really think it wouldn't go amiss sometimes. I spend a lot of time trolling on EVEO and stirring the highsec carebears up and get annoyed with ISD there but here, we're genuinely trying to do something and it's gotta be hard for the CCP team to drudge though all the crap on the forums here to actually find the good posts.
Patches The Hyena 204	Posted - 2012.09.02 01:50:00 - [94] - Quote IRC is whatever. Glad CCP devs can go over there and do whatever. I just wish CCP had a guy on staff who's primary job was dealing with the community. He could type up some posts to give us info, acknowledge our feedback and just let us feel like we're actually involved in a process. Without any voice of CCP on the forums its left me feeling like we are simply numbers. We aren't testers, we are just stress for the server, we have no voice no opinion worth listening to. Just providing load for the servers because CCP can't do that on their own. When this could easily be alleviated by a little CCP interaction on the forums, even if it was mostly through locked threads to prevent drama.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.02 02:02:00 - [95] - Quote You guys are being listend to we are doing our best to remind the devs that get too caught up in thier work we still matter.
Otosan Ookami Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 33	Posted - 2012.09.02 02:05:00 - [96] - Quote "The founder of civilization was the first person to hurl an insult instead of a stone. " - Sigmund Freud You'd think people could understand that disagreeing with others does not make them the enemy., but too many people seem incapable lately of holding this idea long enough to engage in any meaningful discussions. I wish CCP had more staff period, Remember the recent WoD related Layoffs? Yet they still give us more sources of info than just about any other larger developer that comes to mind.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.09.02 02:06:00 - [97] - Quote I'm sure they still read the forums a lot even if they don't always post. They are prob a lot more aware of things than people are giving them credit for.
byte modal Algintal Core Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2012.09.02 02:22:00 - [98] - Quote Disclaimer: It seems the thread has come BACK to the original post since I started typing this. Much of what is coming in the following wall of text was in reaction to the bickering earlier from pages 3-4. I'm glad to see you've all brought it back around to where it was intended but GTFO!!! I spent a LOT of time typing this crap so you're gonna read it! ;) Oh, and I'm not sure the OP was really against IRC, FB, or Twitter. Just that it's logical to assume a general status update would exist ....here. Well, not "here" cuz this is MY post. That would just be silly. You get my point. Anyway, skip over this if you like, no worries. At this point it's more or less a pat on the back for some and a nudge to others. when did the OP declare an If (else) statement? Reread OP and let's get back on point? =) I did not think he was complaining so much as stating the obvious. These forums are for discussion, feedback, and support, are they not? While it is great that information is also being spread through other formats, and seemingly open for all access barring any disagreement bans or what have you, the point made was that it is still a third party method of access. For those who for whatEVER reason can not or simply do not want to go to a third party to learn of information that logically should already be listed in the BETA private NDA forums here, I feel their argument is justified and is far from crying like a child. Some do push the limits obviously but, with that said, taking a stance implying that a player is less dedicated to "the cause" because he can't be bothered to go out of his or her way to find information from CCP that is NOT provided in an already CCP controlled forums is, to me at least, quite silly. We're testing. We're in a relatively closed BETA. This forum is to support that. Why would anyone assume that the most current information is NOT here by default? Why is requesting a simplified progress or bulleted list of "yo. stop griping folks! We're looking into X, but probably won't fix that until we trace Y. In the meantime we understand Z is a huge concern for the community, but it would be really super-awesome if you guys could focus on and play around wtfever we'd like to test instead...." I do believe a secondary point was to help try to minimize countless pages of the same complaints. If there was a single point of reference to where these issues stand---here---it MAY lead to less rants, and may provide players actually concerned with TESTING a rough indication of direction so that we can set OUR priorities in line with the DEVs'. Are PS+ players going to chase IRC down? Maybe. Maybe not. Do they see it as testing to even care about twitter? As a new player downloading DUST---without the dedication to or even knowledge of EVE as some of us have---finds gameplay awkward (and it can be severely at times), why would that player be bothered to go to the forums other than of curiosity, not to mention finding a third-party IRC forum to seek information that by logical assumption would be ...here, if it existed? "Hm. New game demo? neaT! Let's try this.... waiting .... waiting.... oh. Battle is no longer available? Odd, but hell I spent forever downloading it so let's give it a go again! waiting.. waiting... I'm IN! No. I'm out..... OK maybe the game server is down or something so let's check up on the forums ...before I delete. la la la. Oh wow, there are a few others posting the same problem! I am not alone in this universe! OMG I feel just like Jodie Foster did when I saw my dad again on that backwards space beach, but who turned out to be an alien! My dad, not the beach. They should have sent a poet..... oh. Wait, what? No feed back? hmmmm.... Oh! I can go here instead for status updates and such!? ...yeah" I know I'm exaggerating, and I'd like to say Jodie Foster was once hot, but well. The point remains. Even if none of that concerns you or even offers insight to another view from yours, then at the very least try to see how this, at first glance, could seem to the influx of players seeing segregation of "EVE" players from the FPS "mouth breathers" as someone mentioned earlier (perhaps I misread that line? I hope?). We're divided now, and it's BETA. Wtf of the future of this game? Meh. This is a strange thread to me. It was an honest request not intended to take anything away from IRC users and comms, but to provide here as well a condensed "hey we're listening," or "frack off, it's our game." Either of which I'd be fine with. At least I would know where we stand ;) Oh. And I say that as an EVE capsuler since '06. As the French say, "Le bite moi." No. They don't really say that, I just thought it was funny. Sorta. Not really, but I've already dedicated this much energy to it I feel I can't really backspace at this point. All or nothing, ya know? Too, that's a LOT of letters to delete. Ya, I know I could just select/delete but I'm on a laptop. Track pads annoy me. Big hugs to all. Well, except for that heavy I couldn't kill even while shooting him in the back while he hacked a canon and still had enough armor to turn around and mow me down. Like a gnat. Not because I hate you (I know you're reading this, you stalker, you) but because I probably couldn't get my arms around the suit. And technically, because I hate you. 4SRSLY. - me.
JonnyAugust Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 212	Posted - 2012.09.02 02:26:00 - [99] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Keep it civil people. There is an offical channel ccp has made #Dust-514 The problem is its open to the public anyone is allowed here. The NDA one is temporary, and is going only to last as long as the NDA once its lifted expected the reigns and usual conversations to xfer over to the public channel. Also remember they are humans. Average posting time span of most devs 30 seconds. time frame. Average content of post in irc, cat pictures, status update on servers, joke of the day, teasing with soon(tm). QnA voulneteer and forum post concencus sessions are closer to 5% of total Dev content on IRC. The channel is operated by probably the biggest dust 514 fan Ive seen anywhere, but he doesnt have time to manage us either and it seems ccp mostly hijacked the channel for the duration of the testing from him. They're very busy most dont ever talk during thier workshift ever. Usually its around lunch breaks or what little breathing time one or two might have during a trip somewhere. Some ccp employees and voulenetters in the channel are eve side and are just as cluesless as the rest of us and are no better than the average tester in terms of what they know is what is being worked on dust 514 side. So you're saying they are too busy to chat and a forum where they can read things later and type at their own conenience would be a good idea? They should make a foru...oh wait.
Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.09.02 04:14:00 - [100] - Quote All the drama isn't necessary. Maybe in the earlier builds the current communication apparatus was sufficient or even optimal. However, now that alliances and corporations are forming in preparation for release the whole method of communication needs to be rethought or time tables on implementing post release community infrastructure needs to be pushed up so everything doesn't appear so county fair beauty pageant.

Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.02 04:22:00 - [101] - Quote Here is more food for thought. How many players know the forums exist? Why should the forums be the main source of developer information why cant they tell us ingame? news links and website?
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.02 04:27:00 - [102] - Quote I also find it odd as big as a fan Grideris/Gridboss (dust 514 character) I have yet to see the guy in the game at all. Then again hes in unviersity.
Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.09.02 04:29:00 - [103] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Here is more food for thought. How many players know the forums exist? Why should the forums be the main source of developer information why cant they tell us ingame? news links and website? It's not. there's facebook, twitter, etc. Remember, the forums are protected by PSN login and linked to the characters we create which allows us to discuss the game while the NDA is in effect in a secure manner. Arguably, the IRC is not as secure by comparison yet more IS discussed there.
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 360	Posted - 2012.09.02 04:32:00 - [104] - Quote If you guys want to bring the IRC Moderation into it, I'm the one who restricted the channel, not Grideris, it was because the text was going by so fast no one could read anything. there were 5 mods on all accepting questions any of us could be sent a question and it would be passed one. The problem being discussed at the time was very serious, and needed to be addressed but could not have been without calm and order. if you have a problem with that, it's your proplem. I'm sorry, I'm nor any one else moderating the IRC channel is Paid by CCP, nor are we given any compensation, we do it because we want to help the community. However, we will act in the best interest of the Channel, and communication, and if that means shutting the channel down so that the devs can get the information related and calm heads can relay questions so be it.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.02 04:36:00 - [105] - Quote Yup whole reason why I am not a moderator, I get angry easily :P
Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 417	Posted - 2012.09.02 04:39:00 - [106] - Quote Any community member is not an acceptable moderator for the IRC channel. Only CCP oversight can prevent bias like the type many people in this thread have pointed out.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.02 05:09:00 - [107] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: Any community member is not an acceptable moderator for the IRC channel. Only CCP oversight can prevent bias like the type many people in this thread have pointed out. Yet I bet if people where talking as bad as they where in the #dust514 channel most would have been dismissed for nda breaches.
Wakko03 Better Hide R Die 134	Posted - 2012.09.02 05:56:00 - [108] - Quote #27Posted: 2012.08.28 21:41 \| Report I'm not attacking you, please understand that. But you'll only see my corpse with a facebook account, and my first and last, as well as only tweet will be "I am dead". I come here to the FORUMS for information, I don't understand why I then have to join another coffee clutch or go to ccp's hair salon in order to get information or gossip.... it is the way world is.... that is only because the majority have lost their nerve to stand up to the malarkey. Anyone care to share the devs thoughts from irc with the rest of us concerning the In-valid fiasco.... I posted this a few days ago......seems like both the op and the irc champion are taking my suggestion, nice to see I was a trend setter, and thanks to the 6 pages of pure fun to read back and forth. Nice to see a good majority finally getting to the same page. CCP by limiting their sources of good information is relying on some dubious, sketchy information delivery methods, since I have no honor according to some at ccp for bringing a proto suit to a militia fight, and not following an honor system up to the players to choose to use....which just gets funnier to read after the recent (supposedly temporary) nerfing. I don't know this Iron Saber Person (but it was a nice gesture to try and provide the information, but as surprising as it is; most are sticklers for it coming from the horses mouth (without being paraphrased), but I have faced English Snake several times over a few games worth of FPS on the ps3 and some much better forums (and I am shocked to see we had similiar thoughts on the subject). Not for nothing but the system for the psn/sen forums is looking better than this by a wide margin, at least I can find the posts I already made or replied to there a lot easier than here. I played R1, R2, World at War, GTAIV, MW2, 3, black ops, red dead, R3 ArmCo5, and MAG, in each of those games, I have been playing the ps3 for a long time, just like most others, my background is fps on the ps3 console....if you just got the console I don't think you have frozen enough yet to know how many ps3's people have lost due to full release games bricking ps3's and ps3 firmwares... which there are 2 of in the us right now.....maybe the system is optimized for the latest release, but isn't forcing players to download and install it because dust doesn't have that in place yet. The only thing I learned in the previous pages of this thread was that ccp is afraid of talking to the testers because of the negativity and being held to something that they say. Well when you only say something to 2-3 people In an IRC and then they come on the forums and rebutte a post with something(information) not even in the forums, it becomes a problem. I've been told by so many people to sack up (maybe ccp should take their lumps, they can sure dish it out well enough) just like probably everyone on IRC knew to spec into tanks this build. And I thought IRC went extinct back in 1993, killed by aol or was it yahoo. Also this ccp website tells me not to navigate to the new area as there are spoofing problems and people reporting that there have some accounts hacked due to this problem, do I want to navigate off of dust forums....by this time I usually click no I don't choose to go there.
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 360	Posted - 2012.09.02 08:20:00 - [109] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: Any community member is not an acceptable moderator for the IRC channel. Only CCP oversight can prevent bias like the type many people in this thread have pointed out. so your saying STAR, BH, IC, M, YARR, and CCL, who are all unpaid community members shouldn't be allowed to do anything because they don't work for CCP. This is where those groups start, Beta testers become part of the BH group, fan fiction guys join YARR or M, People Like me Grid and Nova might end up helping STAR. If you have a problem with us personally, feel free to come talk to us, send us and EVE mail thru DUST or EVE, send us a PM on IRC or here on the forums. However we will continue to try and provide the best assistance we can to CCP and the Community, for the betterment of all. also a link for those of you who want to know more about the above mentioned groups in EVE. http://community.eveonline.com/isd.asp
Naturi Riclenore BetaMax. 120	Posted - 2012.09.02 08:32:00 - [110] - Quote The FORUMS are the official way to make announcements. Think of IRC as (as stated previously) a coffee shop. IRC you can come up have a quick sit down and go back to work. Think of forums as "This information is legally binding at times/ In a coffee shop, I can relax, joke around, etc.. You can say.. "Hey, when you get a chance ... try this... it might blow you up, but Im wondering if it works" You can then either do or not do Imagine if they came to the forums and said "Hey, we need everyone to test xyz..." then it scews up everyones PS.. how would you take it then?? mass outrage. even in IRC, CCP may ask something and you're like "WHAT??? risk a YLOD for that...." there is a stickied thread that tells everyone in beta how to access IRC. it's not like its a secret. society. CCP releases information via many ways.. twitter, facebook, google+... not jst the forums. How come no one is mad that they did an interview with IGN and didn;t post the information here first? How come you aren't mad they did an interview with MMORPG and didn;t post here first? IRC is just another way, INFORMAL WAY of getting some info out/ They can't really joke around here cause everything they say is taken so seriously. IRC allows them to relax and just hang out. Most of the time, they are not even in IRC. It's just a bot logged into see what we're talking about. I've asked questions before and gotten an "I don't know" response/ The reason the IRC got voice locked was because we were talking so much, it was just flying by. I would type something, then in no less than 2 seconds, it was off the screen. And it wasnt planned.. CCP just happened to drop in... we were as surprised as you would be. They are listening to all avenues, give them some credit.

byte modal Algintal Core Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2012.09.02 08:56:00 - [111] - Quote Again, the OP was simply a request for a weekly update within the forums to give the general player/tester base a nod if nothing else, that yes, issues are being heard. That the 10s of posts complaining about a single topic are not in vane. That there is a reassurance that some of us are not bashing our heads against a wall hoping for a follow up of sorts, only to find beans are spilled elsewhere instead of within the NDA private CCP forums. Absolutely nothing against IRC, FB, Twitter, Interviews now, or any other form of media aside from other forms of media being 3rd party perhaps, while forums users are scratching their heads potentially slipping into the why bother mode. That's not to say that even if DEV posts were stickied every hour on the hour they would be read, but that's another topic. OP was short and to the point. I'm not sure how the thread diverted so far. Some point AFTER the OP the topic shifted and went downhill. Those posts were not the OP's intent, I believe. - me.
Gridboss BetaMax. 185	Posted - 2012.09.02 09:22:00 - [112] - Quote Ok. Seems people are getting a bit worked up over IRC. Let me lay out some stuff. #DUST514-beta was born in earlier days of the beta. Back when there were very few testers, skirmish had two stages, swarm launchers were beyond OP against everything and seeing a tank was a rare sight to behold. It was difficult in those days to have real time communication with each other, as DUST lacked proper communication channels at that stage - even during games voice was unreliable (even more so than now). So to help everyone communicate, I made #DUST514-beta, a NDA covered companion to the already existing public #DUST514 channel. As far as the bans go, this is the current banlist for #DUST514-beta on irc.coldfront.net: "DUST514-beta ban list wrote: frozen.coldfront.net banned !@coldfront-F987815C.dhcp.insightbb.com from #DUST514-beta on Saturday, 1 September 2012 10:19:15 AM. [Remove] frozen.coldfront.net banned GreasyFinger!@ from #DUST514-beta on Saturday, 1 September 2012 10:19:15 AM. [Remove] ===End of #DUST514-beta ban list. Both entries correspond to GreasyFinger, who was banned for excessive profanity. If you have issues with a moderator's actions, talk to me, either using IRC or by emailing me ( [email protected] ). Make sure you include chat logs. As for the issue of devs posting information on IRC but not on the forums: I actually agree. Completely. There should be a number of stickies as others have suggested with things like known issues (more than what the patch notes have), balance concerns, features being worked on currently, and what bugs they have fixed internally but haven't pushed out yet. For whatever reasons, CCP has not done this yet. I don't know why, you will have to ask them about it. But that's not a reason to not have devs on IRC. There are some things that are much easier to do on IRC, such as asking for specific conditions to help try to replicate a bug right there and then. I can also tell you right now, the forums are getting plenty of reading from the devs. They might not respond to every single post, but they're certainly reading them. You can all do your part to help them by not posting crap (not referring to this thread specifically - but you all know what I mean) so they can spend more time reading (and possibly replying) and less time digging. Most people won't see me around in game as I tend to play on the Australian battlecluster as I live in Australia. This combined with University and timezone displacement means that you don't always seem me around. DUST514.org is very quiet, mostly because it's a public site and as such, we can't post anything under the NDA. Hopefully CAST 514 coming back should help to give it some much needed action. As far as the IRC access thread goes, I don't post straight after every single post for access. To do so would be a little over the top, and as such, I only post once or twice a page. However, I (or another moderator) do grant access as soon as we read the new posts. Best way to check is to message us directly on IRC ( /query Grideris ) - either we'll tell you that you have access, or we'll give it to you right there and then (assuming you've made a post and registered your nick on IRC). Against the accusations of bias: I really, honestly, can not see what you're talking about. I virtually never clamp down on certain subjects, and I have never, ever seriously kicked someone for having a differing opinion. I have never heard of moderators doing anything like that either (and if they are, you should be emailing me chatlogs). As far as everyone saying we're a pro-HAV camp, for the discussion with the devs, it was exactly the opposite: tanks are have having it too easy versus infantry. I think the belief that we're all super pro-HAV stems from the fact that we have some very well known good tank drivers, and that when someone asked why the AV nerf, they didn't get an answer. No, no one elected me. I am not a designated community representative in any official capacity. There are no designated community representatives of any kind for DUST. My only real claim to fame is staying up late at night for years, working away to keep anyone that would listen to me informed about DUST. I set up channels of communication between players, encouraged discussion, wrote about what news I heard (and extrapolated the rest). This is one of those channels. It is not official any way you spin it. It's the equivalent to going to an event somewhere with CCP devs in attendance and talking to them. It just runs all the time. TL;DR : IRC is not changing. But CCP could certainly post more on the forums.
Templar Two Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 459	Posted - 2012.09.02 12:54:00 - [113] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Here is more food for thought. How many players know the forums exist? Why should the forums be the main source of developer information why cant they tell us ingame? news links and website? Of all my PSN friends just one is on these forums. Half of them is PS+ Even those that have Dust don't come here. It''s not a statistic but it's something.
fenrir storm Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 314	Posted - 2012.09.02 13:02:00 - [114] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Half of the info about DUST from the devs happens in the IRC channel Why cant they use the forums instead and do a weekly update and what they think may happen and what is being tweeked and if any of the problems the forums has brought if they agree with us or why they dont That way we can discuss properly and also early on instead of reading a few lines from a channel then dealing with a massive shitstorm afterwards because we didnt know about it unless your in the channel Dont give me NDA or some other BS either because the IRC channel is an outside channel where as the forums is run by you the devs Been saying this since I got into beta and I agree 100% , this is the first beta I've been invovled in where the devs dont use the forum to ask or give feed back , also there needs to be an ingame ticket to report isuse and bugs as they happen. I don't use the IRC i come here for info and apart from people trying Ironwolf springs to mind even though I know there are lots of others the system of information needs to be here so me and others like me can see whats going on. Not every one uses the forum but it still should have the same input as the Irc
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.02 14:06:00 - [115] - Quote Johnny the developers are busy they dont have time to go around ask two entire offices and make a post every week on what is up and the sorts. And if you keep this complaints up nobody is going to get anymore information form anywhere, stop attacking the developers for at least trying to keep us informed and stop shooting the inbetween messengers.
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 360	Posted - 2012.09.02 14:09:00 - [116] - Quote Question, why does being a console gamer mean your not going to log into IRC? That would be like saying because I play tennis, I'm not going to use a cell phone. One has no bearing on the other. Your saying we are at fault because we use everything at our disposal and others don't. I'm sorry I just don't see where the dislike or complaints are coming from.
fenrir storm Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 314	Posted - 2012.09.02 14:23:00 - [117] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Johnny the developers are busy they dont have time to go around ask two entire offices and make a post every week on what is up and the sorts. And if you keep this complaints up nobody is going to get anymore information form anywhere, stop attacking the developers for at least trying to keep us informed and stop shooting the inbetween messengers. Sorry I have to disagree on this, every other developer even independant small ones give some one the authority to do exactly this. If they want this game to be a succes they need to address the forums, busy or not one person once a week at the least should be letting us in on whats going on and how they are going to act on our feed back , which is posted in there feed back and bugs section on these very forums they are choosing to neglect. Or why bother to even have this section? Beta is a two way thing we test and find stuff and pass on the info they should take note act on the info and inform us all not just the few who use the irc. The only way we can get across the way we feel is to complain in the hope we get a response and if they close down on info for this reason then I cant see this game makeing it off the starting blocks tbh
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.02 14:51:00 - [118] - Quote fenrir that what the community manager does but dust 514 hasnt launched yet and there isnt need for one yet, the current team of community mangers we know of consists of 2 people. Normally but the both of them have been rather busy and tbh wolfman pokes his head into the irc channel than they do. It also seems from IRCs point of view they've shoved CCP Frame in the server room so he can keep the hamsters feed. CCP CmndWang seems much busier with Marketing side atm.

GM Unicorn Hedion University Amarr Empire 265	Posted - 2012.09.02 15:15:00 - [119] - Quote Closing for some cleanup >.>


GM Unicorn Hedion University Amarr Empire 265	Posted - 2012.09.02 18:14:00 - [120] - Quote Open again. Please guys behave, I don't like closing topics ;(




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