DUST Search - Why the IRC?

Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote:

I didn't even get past the first few posts in this thread.

At the end of the day you all need to grow up, you're here to test the game. The Dev's and CCP have invited you to help them test, getting to play the game early, prior to release is a privelige. You shouldn't be complaining that you "have a life" and can't spend the time on IRC to keep up to date with things.

If you don't have that level of time to dedicate to you're participation in the beta event, don't go on IRC, i don't. But to sit there and criticize how CCP are running the show is very disrespectful and show's just how childish a lot of you are. They are doing the best that they can and you can't ask any more of them. If they spent more time on the forums or even on IRC you'd all be bitching about how they should spend more time fixing bugs and less time chatting with the community. They can't win no matter what they do if you're all going to be so immature. Maybe if you all grew up, started talking like adults and working together to test the game in a more mature fashion they would make more of an attempt to interact with people on the forums.

A large portion of you can't even use grammar or even spell words correctly and all you do is troll and flame or sperg and cry when someone you feel the game "NEEDS" or "MUST HAVE" is not implemented because it's not the direction that CCP want to take the game.

What you all need to remember is that CCP have a road map of this game that spans years, a lot of what you've said may even be on that map already, it's just not on the plan for initial stages of release. They are doing the best they can and are spending as much of their FREE TIME as they can on the forums to keep us in the loop. This forum is for Beta Testing feedback, not crying like a child.

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Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2012.09.01 22:52:00 - [61] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: Otosan Ookami wrote: You have a Free, direct line set up to the Devs that anyone can join given time and interest. It is free for you to access, as is the game itself. How may larger developers can you list that do that? Was there a 24 hour Skyrim IRC with the developers we missed last year? I sure didn't see one. Rather than working for an hour on complex forum posts, I'd rather have them at their desks, PROGRAMMING AND TROUBLESHOOTING THE KITTENING GAME... meaning that IRC is a place for little burps of information on demand for both CCP and the players. More more more., More more, more more more more more.... Give it a rest. If it's important enough to fill pages in a forum, you could have logged in to IRC. One crushed hand (I don't advise feeding your hand through steel rollers) , a body filled with destroyed connective tissues, 3 kids, a Life i don't neglect and even I made the effort to get in. Whats your Excuse? can't spare ONE hand? I'm sure the majority of you have 2 working ones. u seem to miss the previous points that were brought up about fanboyism and ignorance, ppl dont like being told DUST isnt up to par with any shooter, or the mechanics need work....ppl get very defensive and start bashin and gangin up on u because a person being an avid fps player is tellin them the fps side needs work and ppl who arent hardcore fps players finding nothing wrong u tell me whose feedback is more important on that topic These strawman attacks are getting really old and add nothing at all to the discussion.
Novawolf McDustingham The514th Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 43	Posted - 2012.09.01 23:08:00 - [62] - Quote My initial guess as to "why IRC" is probably because they are already on IRC for work purposes and it's simply a convenient way for them to communicate. Some point to the trolling on the forums, but prior to that there was never much communication other than the sporadic announcement from Commander Wang. More has to be done to combat the perception that there is a special clique of a few testers who have more influence than the rest of us. Things like the recent out of left field AV change doesn't help that perception at all. No in house testing, in games stats, or even "We just want to see which HAV fits are living way too long." were given as reasons to the community at large. In fact, even to ask the question in IRC was considered nonconstructive. We need to avoid a situation where the the casual testing community at large feels left out of the loop, becomes disenfranchised, and simply stops playing because that's the main player base that will carry this game through launch. I think the way forward on that is better communication about changes and how they effect the dev's general focus of testing on these forums. And that includes giving us an answer to the question of "why".
J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 648	Posted - 2012.09.01 23:13:00 - [63] - Quote Let me give you all a small reminder: THE ARGUMENT: Why are devs posting info in IRC but neglecing to post said info on forums? Shouldn't the IRC be under direct CCP control? Shouldn't we be getting more information? THE SIDES: 1. This is ridiculous, the info should be posted here first. These forums are the most important tool and resource. 2. CCP can post in IRC, but we would like them to also post said info on the forums and give more direct weekly feedback, as well as continuing to have live interaction on IRC. 3. Whats the problem? Get on the IRC if you want info! THE SOLUTION: # 2 is the most moderate of the 3, and would make both sides more happy, or at least equally unhappy. "A good compromise leaves everyone angry." Although I would prefer CCP had their own directly controlled IRC.
ICECREAMK1NG WARRIORS 134	Posted - 2012.09.01 23:38:00 - [64] - Quote [quote=Iron Wolf Saber Developers up to yesterday where still thinking that AV was too powerful and HAVs where to weak based on thier internal testing. This is not something IRC imposed onto them at all.[/quote] I could care less whether they think like this because of the IRC or their own in house tests... I just don't get why they think this. ? They either are listening to those biased opinions, or have in house idiot testers, or worst fear, do want WOT 2...
Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.09.01 23:54:00 - [65] - Quote On the subject of tanks from a business perspective: You can't sell AUR to players who don't die. As far as IRC goes it's just your typical rambling nerd fueled MMO.txt with a dev popping in once and a while to pick their brain. The devs clearly have their own ideas on how the game should be played and their interaction on IRC is probably more about influencing their peers rather than being influenced by the people on IRC.
H4rabec Weathers 16	Posted - 2012.09.01 23:57:00 - [66] - Quote and you cant sell aur to players that arent there. Just getting the balance right so it's fun from both sides of the turret is key. noone is asking for tanks to be weak.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:01:00 - [67] - Quote TBH to the people saying 'get on the IRC' it isnt that easy If you are not swinging from Grids tool then your question/s will not get asked most likely If you keep asking questions which are important to you as a player ie 'hit detection mechanics why do they not work' but to the small IRC clique the question is not important your question will not get asked most likely If you keep wanting to ask the same question because Grid hasnt forwarded/asked your question ie 'hit detection mechanics why do they not work' because you dont fit into the small IRC clique and refuse to swing from grids tool then your question will never get asked If you complain that your question is still not getting asked and complain that the mods are in a small clique and are biased then they will never ask your question and most likely ban you If you keep complaining that the IRC is defo biased and they are a bunch of potatoes who want to the make the game for themselves because they are bad and need bad mechanics to make up for ther lack of skill you will get banned The IRC is biased and is totally the wrong place for feedback, Leither has put up the posts to prove this While it is his server and he can do what he wants he is providing a biased service which bans ppl who do not agree with him or the majority and it is providing CCP with biased information from a small group which will only hurt the game in the short and long term The info that is being released maybe good but its most likely out of date and misses the big questions that the forums want answering not including that the questions are already hand picked by a biased individual A simple weekly update would suffice on the major issues which pop up in the week ie Tanks and the AV nerf and what they are doing
Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:06:00 - [68] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: A simple weekly update would suffice on the major issues which pop up in the week ie Tanks and the AV nerf and what they are doing This. Like, "Hey, Mercs! This week we're gonna make killing a tank completely and utterly impossible. W00t!"
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:10:00 - [69] - Quote I didn't even get past the first few posts in this thread. At the end of the day you all need to grow up, you're here to test the game. The Dev's and CCP have invited you to help them test, getting to play the game early, prior to release is a privelige. You shouldn't be complaining that you "have a life" and can't spend the time on IRC to keep up to date with things. If you don't have that level of time to dedicate to you're participation in the beta event, don't go on IRC, i don't. But to sit there and criticize how CCP are running the show is very disrespectful and show's just how childish a lot of you are. They are doing the best that they can and you can't ask any more of them. If they spent more time on the forums or even on IRC you'd all be bitching about how they should spend more time fixing bugs and less time chatting with the community. They can't win no matter what they do if you're all going to be so immature. Maybe if you all grew up, started talking like adults and working together to test the game in a more mature fashion they would make more of an attempt to interact with people on the forums. A large portion of you can't even use grammar or even spell words correctly and all you do is troll and flame or sperg and cry when someone you feel the game "NEEDS" or "MUST HAVE" is not implemented because it's not the direction that CCP want to take the game. What you all need to remember is that CCP have a road map of this game that spans years, a lot of what you've said may even be on that map already, it's just not on the plan for initial stages of release. They are doing the best they can and are spending as much of their FREE TIME as they can on the forums to keep us in the loop. This forum is for Beta Testing feedback, not crying like a child.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:16:00 - [70] - Quote A few other things Devs treat IRC like a coffee shop, they treat the forums like a podium at a business meeting. Forums have horrendus lag between a developer asking and player responses. IRC has the ability to laser pointer to ask a certain palyer to go blow up thier ps3 in experiments. We lost two IRCer ps3s so far. IRC doesnt scale well, if 1200 testers where in irc all the same time messages would fly by so fast I wouldnt be able to keep up. Forums serve much better as harvesters of data, IE corp battle feedback. It doesnt serve as good of a spot to pitch ideas at yet becuase there isnt enough of a foundation on our end to solidify every theory this is going to change over time. Current Developers that are supposed to be talking to us are extremly busy else where. IE marketing. CCP Fang and CCP commander wang are overly busy doing non community manager things despite that is thier title once the game gets polsihed enough and launch you can expect these guys to pop thier heads in the forums more frequently, dev blogs to happen more often and the sorts. Just right now we're at a special horrible spot called deadline for launch. Lots of money to be lost or gained is at stakes and as cerberal pointed out they took time out of thier lunch break to talk to us.

Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:21:00 - [71] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: I didn't even get past the first few posts in this thread. At the end of the day you all need to grow up, you're here to test the game. The Dev's and CCP have invited you to help them test, getting to play the game early, prior to release is a privelige. You shouldn't be complaining that you "have a life" and can't spend the time on IRC to keep up to date with things. If you don't have that level of time to dedicate to you're participation in the beta event, don't go on IRC, i don't. But to sit there and criticize how CCP are running the show is very disrespectful and show's just how childish a lot of you are. They are doing the best that they can and you can't ask any more of them. If they spent more time on the forums or even on IRC you'd all be bitching about how they should spend more time fixing bugs and less time chatting with the community. They can't win no matter what they do if you're all going to be so immature. Maybe if you all grew up, started talking like adults and working together to test the game in a more mature fashion they would make more of an attempt to interact with people on the forums. A large portion of you can't even use grammar or even spell words correctly and all you do is troll and flame or sperg and cry when someone you feel the game "NEEDS" or "MUST HAVE" is not implemented because it's not the direction that CCP want to take the game. What you all need to remember is that CCP have a road map of this game that spans years, a lot of what you've said may even be on that map already, it's just not on the plan for initial stages of release. They are doing the best they can and are spending as much of their FREE TIME as they can on the forums to keep us in the loop. This forum is for Beta Testing feedback, not crying like a child. Try and be 100% less smug. Many in this thread may not be communicating their point very well but the fact is CCP isn't working for free here. This isn't some Kickstarter project but many of these people have spent real money already to an unfinished product and WANT a reason to be given to them to continue doing so. They are basically here begging for CCP to open their wallet for them in their own little way. Asking for more communication on changes that effect thier willingness to remain paying customers seems reasonable. One man's dollar is as good as another's - IRC or forum troll. The misconception about IRC notwithstanding, the recent AV change was drastic and communicating the intent behind the change should have been handled better.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:25:00 - [72] - Quote But they need to be less like children if they want CCP to go out of their way. I've not been on IRC in months and months and i'm in the same situation as everyone else on the forums, more information and feedback would be nice but it's never going to happen if all CCP see on the forums are children bickering and fighting and crying all the time. You all need to sperg less and conduct yourselves better and less like spoiled brats and then maybe you'd get the feedback you'd like. EDIT: And how the hell is that a smug post?... You're clearly illiterate.
Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:29:00 - [73] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: But they need to be less like children if they want CCP to go out of their way. I've not been on IRC in months and months and i'm in the same situation as everyone else on the forums, more information and feedback would be nice but it's never going to happen if all CCP see on the forums are children bickering and fighting and crying all the time. You all need to sperg less and conduct yourselves better and less like spoiled brats and then maybe you'd get the feedback you'd like. There never was much feedback in the forums. Most of us learned in game from the GM's we played along side. The state of the forum has little to do with the level of communication here. That has been a pure PR calculation thus far. The simple fact is people on IRC are happy with the communication so far and many people on the forums aren't. Now the Devs can choose to hide behind people like you who come in and call the unwashed forum plebs whiners and crybabies or they can reach out to them as well as they do to those on IRC and make more money for CCP in the long run.
Darky SI 232	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:32:00 - [74] - Quote lol what the heck is IRC! on side note: forums >> 3rd party crap
Shadows Maker Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 129	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:36:00 - [75] - Quote If the IRC is so damn important to CCP for live feedback and QA then they should created there own channel monitored by them not some biased individual who doesn't know better.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:50:00 - [76] - Quote Ignatius Crumwald wrote: Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: But they need to be less like children if they want CCP to go out of their way. I've not been on IRC in months and months and i'm in the same situation as everyone else on the forums, more information and feedback would be nice but it's never going to happen if all CCP see on the forums are children bickering and fighting and crying all the time. You all need to sperg less and conduct yourselves better and less like spoiled brats and then maybe you'd get the feedback you'd like. There never was much feedback in the forums. Most of us learned in game from the GM's we played along side. The state of the forum has little to do with the level of communication here. That has been a pure PR calculation thus far. The simple fact is people on IRC are happy with the communication so far and many people on the forums aren't. Now the Devs can choose to hide behind people like you who come in and call the unwashed forum plebs whiners and crybabies or they can reach out to them as well as they do to those on IRC and make more money for CCP in the long run. Read my post again, i'm saying i agree with the poor communication but that if it's to be corrected people need to go about it in a much better way than their current child like behavior. Are you saying you think they are going about it the right way?...
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:51:00 - [77] - Quote Keep it civil people. There is an offical channel ccp has made #Dust-514 The problem is its open to the public anyone is allowed here. The NDA one is temporary, and is going only to last as long as the NDA once its lifted expected the reigns and usual conversations to xfer over to the public channel. Also remember they are humans. Average posting time span of most devs 30 seconds. time frame. Average content of post in irc, cat pictures, status update on servers, joke of the day, teasing with soon(tm). QnA voulneteer and forum post concencus sessions are closer to 5% of total Dev content on IRC. The channel is operated by probably the biggest dust 514 fan Ive seen anywhere, but he doesnt have time to manage us either and it seems ccp mostly hijacked the channel for the duration of the testing from him. They're very busy most dont ever talk during thier workshift ever. Usually its around lunch breaks or what little breathing time one or two might have during a trip somewhere. Some ccp employees and voulenetters in the channel are eve side and are just as cluesless as the rest of us and are no better than the average tester in terms of what they know is what is being worked on dust 514 side.
J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 648	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:52:00 - [78] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: I didn't even get past the first few posts in this thread. At the end of the day you all need to grow up, you're here to test the game. The Dev's and CCP have invited you to help them test, getting to play the game early, prior to release is a privelige. You shouldn't be complaining that you "have a life" and can't spend the time on IRC to keep up to date with things. If you don't have that level of time to dedicate to you're participation in the beta event, don't go on IRC, i don't. But to sit there and criticize how CCP are running the show is very disrespectful and show's just how childish a lot of you are. They are doing the best that they can and you can't ask any more of them. If they spent more time on the forums or even on IRC you'd all be bitching about how they should spend more time fixing bugs and less time chatting with the community. They can't win no matter what they do if you're all going to be so immature. Maybe if you all grew up, started talking like adults and working together to test the game in a more mature fashion they would make more of an attempt to interact with people on the forums. A large portion of you can't even use grammar or even spell words correctly and all you do is troll and flame or sperg and cry when someone you feel the game "NEEDS" or "MUST HAVE" is not implemented because it's not the direction that CCP want to take the game. What you all need to remember is that CCP have a road map of this game that spans years, a lot of what you've said may even be on that map already, it's just not on the plan for initial stages of release. They are doing the best they can and are spending as much of their FREE TIME as they can on the forums to keep us in the loop. This forum is for Beta Testing feedback, not crying like a child. Typing errors are a result of using iOS at least for me. So your argument is the typical its a beta argument. I am so ** tired of hearing that. All we want is for CCP to be more active and communicate ON THE BETA FORUMS THEY HAVE SPECIFICALLY FOR BETA TESTERS TO GIVE FEEDBACK. Saying "go to IRC for info" is stupid when they have a giant tool being misused right here. And when you throw out the words "immature, childish, etc" that is largely your biased view that dictates what you think is immature. Its easy to label things you disagree with. Long story short, a big part of this community has some kind of stick up their kitten, because the members who feel passionately about it get bashed if they disagree with other passionate members. Many of my friends have already left this game or given up on it because of the constant ** we go through. God, we ask cor the simplest of things and it sparks a huge debate. CCP needs to learn a lesson here. Its actually a hidden lesson. People get pissed off hearing second hand ifno that should be firsthand. We are asking for more communication and feedback on these specifically appointed forums for testing. Yeah, go tell me to GTFO. The more I see of this whole thing, the less I really want to be part of it, which is a shake considering how much potential it has. And I am not the only one who feels this way. The only reason I get on these forums to wade theough kittens 3 feet deep is to try and make this game better. If crap like this continues though... :-/
Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:54:00 - [79] - Quote Shadows Maker wrote: If the IRC is so damn important to CCP for live feedback and QA then they should created there own channel monitored by them not some biased individual who doesn't know better. The channel is pretty open most of time aside from a few empty e-peen driven threats of banning here and there. The only reason Grideris moderated the channel was because the questions were going by a bit fast. He does a good job with the channel and I think it's fine in his hands. The issue isn't about IRC, it's about the forums and how the users here can get the same level of satisfaction as the IRC users have.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:54:00 - [80] - Quote Dawg stop over translating a few lines, cool off a bit and come back when you a bit calmer plase.

Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:55:00 - [81] - Quote I'm totally in agreement with what you're saying, but i think people need to seriously tone down the way they are expressing themselves and keep it all in context and not to get all emotional and pissed about it because that's only going to make things worse and spark huge shite throwing contests.
Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.09.02 00:58:00 - [82] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Ignatius Crumwald wrote: Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: But they need to be less like children if they want CCP to go out of their way. I've not been on IRC in months and months and i'm in the same situation as everyone else on the forums, more information and feedback would be nice but it's never going to happen if all CCP see on the forums are children bickering and fighting and crying all the time. You all need to sperg less and conduct yourselves better and less like spoiled brats and then maybe you'd get the feedback you'd like. There never was much feedback in the forums. Most of us learned in game from the GM's we played along side. The state of the forum has little to do with the level of communication here. That has been a pure PR calculation thus far. The simple fact is people on IRC are happy with the communication so far and many people on the forums aren't. Now the Devs can choose to hide behind people like you who come in and call the unwashed forum plebs whiners and crybabies or they can reach out to them as well as they do to those on IRC and make more money for CCP in the long run. Read my post again, i'm saying i agree with the poor communication but that if it's to be corrected people need to go about it in a much better way than their current child like behavior. Are you saying you think they are going about it the right way?... They shouldn't have to go about it the right way. CCP wants their money, these people want communication. make the transaction.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.02 01:00:00 - [83] - Quote As another reminder #Dust-514 is CCP controled and likely to become the primary channel once NDA is lifted. #Dust-514 beta is temporary. Also CCP hands out more information over twitter and face book yet no compalints about that either?
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.09.02 01:02:00 - [84] - Quote Yes they should, CCP didn't have to offer Beta access in any way shape or form, i admit it;s a very good source of free feedback for them so they are gaining a lot more out of this but we're still getting involved with things and able to enjoy the game prior to release at the same time. The Dev's are still very hard at work making the game, they have family's etc, while we're playing the game after a hard day at work and demanding reply's and feedback on the forums those guys are still at work, testing corp battles in what is literally the middle of the night there. Give them at least a little breathing room, i guarantee you that you'll get more feedback in a few weeks once their workloads eased off a little and the forums start being a lot less like a cesspit.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.09.02 01:03:00 - [85] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: As another reminder #Dust-514 is CCP controled and likely to become the primary channel once NDA is lifted. #Dust-514 beta is temporary. Also CCP hands out more information over twitter and face book yet no compalints about that either? Twitter is actually a major source of info we in the CFC use for all sorts of shenanigans including the recent FW exploits.
J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 648	Posted - 2012.09.02 01:11:00 - [86] - Quote Can we at least come to the simple agreement that their needs to be more of a weekly update kind of thing on these forums, as well as better feedback? Thats really my main issue, and I beliebe the ofhers as well. IRC, fine, if you use t you use it, but make them equal at least. You will always have to deal with people taking official quotes out of context, but thats the price of game design and a beta. Don't make promises, just throw around ideas for consideration.
Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.09.02 01:22:00 - [87] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Yes they should, CCP didn't have to offer Beta access in any way shape or form, i admit it;s a very good source of free feedback for them so they are gaining a lot more out of this but we're still getting involved with things and able to enjoy the game prior to release at the same time. The Dev's are still very hard at work making the game, they have family's etc, while we're playing the game after a hard day at work and demanding reply's and feedback on the forums those guys are still at work, testing corp battles in what is literally the middle of the night there. Give them at least a little breathing room, i guarantee you that you'll get more feedback in a few weeks once their workloads eased off a little and the forums start being a lot less like a cesspit. The forums are always going to be a cesspit - that's their charm. There isn't much more necessary to making the forums happy as they will ever be than a simple official round-up of what is planned and what was discussed in IRC. For the community at large a simple news post outlining testing goals, future goals, and reasons for the changes they make would go a long way in keeping the community feel they're a part of the testing as well as.putting much of the nonconstructive conspiratorial speculation to rest.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.09.02 01:29:00 - [88] - Quote Again i agree with the pair of you, but my original comment wasn't exactly aimed at you two either, for a start you can both string a sentence together but i think you both knew that and just jumped on me. heh.
Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.09.02 01:37:00 - [89] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Again i agree with the pair of you, but my original comment wasn't exactly aimed at you two either, for a start you can both string a sentence together but i think you both knew that and just jumped on me. heh. Because to an extent I agree with many of them and want to see them get what they're asking for here.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 760	Posted - 2012.09.02 01:37:00 - [90] - Quote Next time someone from CCP is in IRC can you ask for a bigger ISD presence on these forums? Normally i complain about ISD on the EVEO forums but i think they could be a hell of a lot of use here.



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