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Omnipotent lilmamaj
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
205
   |
Posted - 2012.08.12 15:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Note: Since this is a long post, I will highlight the most important points. I encourage you to read the whole thing because of all the time I have spent researching and writing the information you will read below.
First and foremost, let me say that this game has a lot of potential. There would be no presence in this community if we thought this game was going to be atrocious as it is in this stage of its early life. Throughout these forums I have bashed the game and its developers in a harsh way. I apologize, but in some situations things need to be said in a distasteful way in order for the best outcome to occur. There are many positive aspects of this game, but talking about them is considered futile at the moment due to the fact that the developers are looking for things to fix. These things still need to be discussed and pondered on.
Let's get down to the nitty gritty. First person shooters need a few requirements to maintain a constant flow of players. (1)Balance,(2) entertaining gameplay, (3)developer support, and (4)evolution are a few items that are necessary to keep a video game prospering and successful. Research and experience show that what I say is truthful and valid.
(1)Modern Warfare 2 is an excellent example of a game that has a lack of balance. With grenade launchers and Scavenger Pro, a nuke is easily acquired. Similar to this game, players with gun game are trampled by something that can't be matched.
(2)With technological advances, and the need to market video games successfully, entertaining gameplay is not to hard to come by. Video games have become a race for originality. No one wants to purchase a video game that costs sixty dollars, and is the exact same game they bought three months ago. This is the past. The basic ideals for Dust 514 are so revolutionary, they have people buying Playstation 3's so they can join and be a part of the newest innovations in technology. Entertaining gameplay is something that CCP excels in.
(3)A good portion of this community knows that developer support is essential from personal experience. Once Zipper made 75% of their profit from MAG, all support for the MAG community ceased. Game-breakers like glitches stopped being patched, and we were left with a broken game, which lead to a good portion of the community leaving, stopping a lot of people from buying the MAG monthly content. Seeing they could rip the MAG community off, they tried the same thing with one of their more popular games(Socom 4). Zipper Interactive didn't understand progression in video games as our good friends at CCP do. This is probably why they are bankrupt and out of business now.
(4)The always changing game is one of the things that excites me and my fellow beta testers most. This game will evolve into a kill for hire type game on a very large scale. Our actions will affect EvE online, benefiting both games.
As you can see from my lengthy explanation above, there is one major problem with this game, balance is an issue. Sorry Lurchasaurus , people must be aware that the fact that tanks have the ability to parade the ground of battle and stomp on people who aren't in an opposing tank, an opposing dropship, or uselessly camping on top of a building with a sense of false accomplishment. Getting 40 kills and zero deaths because of an advantage that you aren't entitled to is immoral and quite frankly unacceptable in the first person shooter community.
Arguments have been made to defend this style of gaming. Lurking around the forums, you will see posts and threads that look similar to this; "they can be destroyed," "tanks are underpowered," "I payed a lot of money and sp for those tanks," "go back to COD you whining Cod kiddie." I would like to address all of these arguments. The first two counterarguments are quite simple, they can be destroyed on extremely specific grounds. There needs to be at least two people with prototype swarm launchers or forge guns constantly shooting these tanks. There are a few problems with this. On most occasions, people who carry swarms or forges can be taken out by these tanks very easily. If they are taken out by these tanks in the process of there job, tanks will magically repair themselves. The third and fourth counterargument are poor ways to hide behind the fact that tanks are overpowered and they are easy ways to gain cheap kills. You aren't losing any money because you aren't dying. Skill points are gained right back because you are getting many kills without any deaths. Calling people Cod Kiddies seems to be the final resort for people who no longer want to argue against people who generally agree with first person shooters.
Yes this game was made to have tanks like many others. This doesn't mean that they were meant to rule the game. If you deny they rule the game you are fooling yourself. I have never personally found myself running in fear from the best first person shooters in the world. I'd rather have twelve protoman clones on the opposite team as a major challenge then having one tank on the opposite team making success almost impossible. Lets be honest and sincere here, would you really be getting the same amount of kill as infantry on the battlefield?
What do you think? Why are these pests welcome in this game? Feedback is welcome.
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Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
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Posted - 2012.08.12 15:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dust 514 practices imperfect balance system to encourage all sorts of other fits. What we should try to avoid though is grossly overpowered options and this is being worked on a constant never ending basis.
As for point 2 I agree. They need to polish out point 1 and the AAA game part much more.
Point 3 cant be argued against CCP is a phenominal developer with the gall to poke EA in the eye every chance they get (to EA's annoyance this is payback for refusing to publish eve online years ago, and EA mockingly called the eve online game 'impossible') and they already have a 10 year plan for dust 514.
As for the tank argument I just find it mostly because if I dont swap to AV to deal with the tank it seems that nobody goes out to kill these tanks. I shouldnt be the only AV on the field.
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Debacle Nano
Shadow Company HQ
639
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Posted - 2012.08.12 15:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
As I said in the other thread, what do you think that they should nerf on the HAV that doesn't make it OP, but doesn't make it's function inert? |
Omnipotent lilmamaj
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
205
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 15:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Debacle Nano wrote:As I said in the other thread, what do you think that they should nerf on the HAV that doesn't make it OP, but doesn't make it's function inert?
Armor by half
People say its gonna be more expensive next build so keep it the same or just a little bit more expensive
No missiles just those machine gun things |
Debacle Nano
Shadow Company HQ
639
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 15:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote:Debacle Nano wrote:As I said in the other thread, what do you think that they should nerf on the HAV that doesn't make it OP, but doesn't make it's function inert? Armor by half People say its gonna be more expensive next build so keep it the same or just a little bit more expensive No missiles just those machine gun things
Armor by half - You mean cut they're armor in half? It would make a tanks function inert. It would have the same hitpoints as a dropship. So why not just fly in one of those?
The price going up is fine.
The missiles are slightly overpowered this build. I assume they'll be balanced out in the near future. |
Omnipotent lilmamaj
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
205
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 15:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
4 people should take out a tank easily. In this game each of those people is going to die a few times trying to take out one person. It's OP whether you like it or not. |
Debacle Nano
Shadow Company HQ
639
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 15:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote:4 people should take out a tank easily. In this game each of those people is going to die a few times trying to take out one person. It's OP whether you like it or not.
4 people can take out a marauder that is well fit. Hell, 2 people can if the drivers dumb. AV personnel have to be persistent with damage. It's not an "Forge beats tank instantly" I come from both sides. I run a Surya but I also use a proto swarm. I have no problems killing marauders if I am persistent with my swarms. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 15:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote:Debacle Nano wrote:As I said in the other thread, what do you think that they should nerf on the HAV that doesn't make it OP, but doesn't make it's function inert? Armor by half People say its gonna be more expensive next build so keep it the same or just a little bit more expensive No missiles just those machine gun things
Hell No, if you half armor on HAVs Id be OHK them. |
EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 15:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
For the 4th time in 1 ******* day
Tanks are not OP against 12 morons who are as dumb as a lamp post |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
404
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
I think we'll know if they're OP'ed in two or three weeks.
For my small part when grouping is in place I'm gonna find me a proto-swarm/forge buddy and equipped with AV grenades/RE's and a few pre-canned tactics and hopefully the ability to learn from our mistakes I'm expecting my little AV team to be able to kill HAVs and maurauders with a reasonable success rate. TBH, I don't even think we need web grenades. or flux grenades.
And with the buff to smg range(frigg'n crazy if you ask me), it even makes not having my trusty AR with me a bit more bearable. |
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Volgair
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
200
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Posted - 2012.08.12 16:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
first i would like to point out this game has some what devolved from what it was 3 years ago because of a change in the engine, but to break something before all the pieces are on the board is stupid. i will not disagree with you on the rudimentary market analysis. its a bit jaded but not entirely wrong. however i will disagree with you on many things, your simplified view on this games scope and scale for one thing.
i would next like to point out the fact i am a forge gunner, i kill tanks, i do. 6-10 rounds with a Proto Forge is all it takes to kill a Sag or Suri that's 13.1-23.5 seconds of uninterrupted fire with one to two reload depending on skills of the pilot. with two Proto assault forge gunners that's 5.5-11.75 seconds. if i were a battle commander with a seasoned, practiced and familiar team, tanks being played as they are now would make them an expensive liability that would last on the field about as long as a day one militia suit. as it stands with random groups being pulled out of the general populous for these quick non-consequential games during the beta, tanks have the upper hand because coordination and knowledge is lacking and that is the ONLY reason they hold a dominant position on the field. the tank does not need to change, it needs competition and the only way its going to get that is to expand the game to the point where there is no absolute high point on the food chain. that's coming I'm sure of it. so just hold tight and wait for the figurative magic. |
Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
2002
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
The tank can kill your whole group in 3.2 seconds. Thank you for supporting the Tanks are OP argument. I have watched it happen, I have done it.
The only problem is the 1.5 damage mod on Marauders. No one minds gunloggi's or militia tanks. |
Avenger 245
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
477
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
actually once statis webifer and emp stuff are brought in and grouping gets better tanks will be underpowered as of right now a person can solo them if they try once we get all that extra tanks tanks will be underpowered once teams get a little more coordinated.
i would ratehr a game were theres not one perfectly balanced weapon i prefered the perfect imbalance and rock paper sissors that will keep combat interesting and unique. |
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
This actually an extremely well thought out and intelligent OP.
While I agree that this game still needs some serious love on the gameplay side of the equation.
We don't yet have all the possible anti vehicle weapons that we will on release. Tanks definitely rule the battlefield in this build especially when one team has all the tanks and the other randoms don't have any AV skills. I believe that without any nerf on the tanks balance will return when we get more AV options. Stasis webs will absolutely destroy a tanks main defense, mobility after they can't hide and repair if they can't run away in the first place. Also new types of.forge guns in the next build may be a whole lot more powerful. We don't know yet.
In the end I think they need to give us the core game mechanics that will make a good game. We also need all the weapons so we can actually test the balance without having gaping holes in our arsenal.
Good post all around +1 to you for making a sensible that explains in detail what you feel are major problems and while I may not agree I do see and acknowledge your argument. |
Wakko03
Better Hide R Die
134
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 16:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Must have been my mistake that the EX-11 packed explosive AV grenade has a throw range of less than a Remote Explosive and a Assualt Suit doesn't provide enough CPU to use the wikyromi AV grenade after armor and sheild modules.
Still have yet to hear about the magic involved that allows a tank turret to hit me at the base of the tube when the shell, projectile or blast (whatever you want to call it) launches and I am on top of it, no where near the point of egress of the tank fired main weapon.
Tell you what tank defenders, let me have a few games where my toon can throw the bigger AV grenade and oh yeah give me infinite grenade ammo (since you enjoy it) to destroy your tank and then your fat suit wearing tuckus when you finally do pop out of the tank.
Yes I know the nano's are going to resupply grenades, but I don't think it will be as fast as say the tank turret or missle launcher they currently enjoy. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
404
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:The tank can kill your whole group in 3.2 seconds. Thank you for supporting the Tanks are OP argument. I have watched it happen, I have done it.
The only problem is the 1.5 damage mod on Marauders. No one minds gunloggi's or militia tanks.
In most situations having your group located within 1 blast radius of each other is bad tactics. Hopefully the number of situation where we're forced to operate like thus will be relatively infrequent. |
xprotoman23
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
1452
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
Wakko03 wrote:Must have been my mistake that the EX-11 packed explosive AV grenade has a throw range of less than a Remote Explosive and a Assualt Suit doesn't provide enough CPU to use the wikyromi AV grenade after armor and sheild modules.
Still have yet to hear about the magic involved that allows a tank turret to hit me at the base of the tube when the shell, projectile or blast (whatever you want to call it) launches and I am on top of it, no where near the point of egress of the tank fired main weapon.
Tell you what tank defenders, let me have a few games where my toon can throw the bigger AV grenade and oh yeah give me infinite grenade ammo (since you enjoy it) to destroy your tank and then your fat suit wearing tuckus when you finally do pop out of the tank.
Yes I know the nano's are going to resupply grenades, but I don't think it will be as fast as say the tank turret or missle launcher they currently enjoy.
Great point man. +1 |
Iceyburnz
316
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote:Calling people Cod Kiddies seems to be the final resort for people who no longer want to argue against people who generally agree with first person shooters.
Thats because arguing is a lot harder than playing CoD.
Loved you post, very well written, great points raised!
+1 |
Shadoe Wolf
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
@ Omni, this is the best post I have seen you make. It was well thought out with valid points. I do agre that there is still work to be done. But as far as tanks are concerned, the do appear as OP. but we also don't have all AV items implemented at the moment. As the beta progresses, with proper grouping and ewar items in place, those tanks will start dropping pretty quick. Plus, with sp and isk gains at normal rates, I don't forsee many tanks on the field at once. I just hope to see sticky RE so they can be stuck to vehicles. |
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
Shadoe Wolf wrote:@ Omni, this is the best post I have seen you make. It was well thought out with valid points. I do agre that there is still work to be done. But as far as tanks are concerned, the do appear as OP. but we also don't have all AV items implemented at the moment. As the beta progresses, with proper grouping and ewar items in place, those tanks will start dropping pretty quick. Plus, with sp and isk gains at normal rates, I don't forsee many tanks on the field at once. I just hope to see sticky RE so they can be stuck to vehicles.
With AV grenades being able to stick to vehicles that may just cover that base, but that would be cool new and different places to hide them for ambushes at any rate. |
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Sniper no Sniping
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
21
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Posted - 2012.08.12 17:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote:4 people should take out a tank easily. In this game each of those people is going to die a few times trying to take out one person. It's OP whether you like it or not.
Man, what 4 guys are you watching that can't destroy a tank. you might want to find 4 new guys that know what they are doing. |
Mr TamiyaCowboy
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
121
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
Omni we will never get people to own up the fact some things are overpowered and exploited.
someone came to me with stats like 100 kills to 0 deaths in a few matches i would tell them sling thyne hook.
its not skill its just broken mechanics and a Bad beta tester ( yup bad because he does not bring to designers notice of the fault/bug/sploit)
turn up the balancing to 100, back it of to 75%, then let us decided where you should focus.
i would start with tanks - camping and sp sploits- dropships + towers, terrain mapping
spawn mechanics (auto free droplink / command droplink( groups squads for a mass droplink (all players )
CCP should have 4 devs, open a huge map, and use the players to find fixes and bug test. like what is done on singularity server.
if devs ned hax no problems but lets start seeing some propper testing ccp, tests with meaning. |
Terrarim
12
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Posted - 2012.08.12 17:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
I think an easy fix to the tank balance (and I have created a topic on it in the requests part of the forum) is AV pressure mines.
Here is what I wrote:
Most games that use vehicles extensively have anti vehicle mines. MAG and BF3 come to mind. We only have remote explosives which whilst can be partially effective against vehicles are no real threat to higher tear tanks etc and have to have people baby sitting them for them to work properly.
Defence should always have a slight advantage over offense as its supposed to be "home ground" and have had time to set up defences against enemy attackers.
Without mines in the game I see allot of that advantage taken away.
Its not as if there are no tactical ways of getting rid of mines including, using grens or mine defuse game mechanics.
Maybe if tanks were force to think a bit more tactically then allot of the overpowered nerf tanks calls wouldn't be quite as high.
Similarly it would be intrestingf if infantry or air support could be used to clear mined areas of roads (or orbital strikes etc). As this may produce temporary and tactically interesting choke points in the map.
I personally don't see many down sides and see mostly upsides for using this valuable infantry weapon in combat. |
Mr TamiyaCowboy
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
121
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 17:58:00 -
[24] - Quote
i found the best way with tanks is get very close, and just hammer rounds like mad, every tank driver will try to run away, in your face they dont like.
while keeping close drop your nades dont throw, ambush them in confined areas to.
hey i die shed loads to tanks, just perma camping peen extenders |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
808
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 18:02:00 -
[25] - Quote
Talking about KD's in a redlined match is pointless since its such an extreme situation, even a dropship can get ridiculous points by sitting there spamming missiles.
Any good tank driver knows he needs both gunners before he can be effective. The simple idea that you should be able to easily take out a tank as one person against a group of three players is itself foolish and unfair.
I bet you cant find a single post of me lobbying for a buff to tanks. The reason why i havent asked for a nerf either is because we still dont have a significant portion of the game's AV and ewar assets. We also dont have grouping yet. These things will have a profound effect on the use of ground armor. Its simply a bad idea to cry nerf or buff on something when we havent seen it in a well-rounded light.
If one guy had a shotgun and the second couldn't use a sniper rifle or assault rifle cause they werent yet in the game, wouldnt shotguns be seen as OP? |
Darkz azurr
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
105
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 18:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
i think people think about grouping and nullsec alot when trying to take out tanks, they forget about highsec, and the many many lone wolf guys too that will be faced againsed such vehices, thie thing that makes tanks really powerful is that there are 3 gunners, i personally think there should only be 2. having 3 people in a tank (2 missles and a large railgun shoot at you is abit much) thats 3, 1 hit kill weapons and with massive armour/shields with the ability to repair itself while being repaired by infantry too.  |
Drommy Hood
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
242
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 18:12:00 -
[27] - Quote
Debacle Nano wrote:Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote:4 people should take out a tank easily. In this game each of those people is going to die a few times trying to take out one person. It's OP whether you like it or not. 4 people can take out a marauder that is well fit. Hell, 2 people can if the drivers dumb. AV personnel have to be persistent with damage. It's not an "Forge beats tank instantly" I come from both sides. I run a Surya but I also use a proto swarm. I have no problems killing marauders if I am persistent with my swarms.
Lost 3 in the last match. Proto forge hurt me  |
counter logic
BetaMax.
42
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 18:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
I agree with the first reply, CCP indeed does a very different form of balancing than most FPS players are use too. It isn't a very dry hard counter/all the guns are evenly matched style of balance. They promote mismatches, your suit or vehicle will only do what you fit it to do.
As for tanks, I have had long discussions on this with the likes of Noc, Jenza and Free Beers. The best balance has come from the discussions has been.
Give tanks more HP
Slow them the hell down.
As it stands right now, the problem isn't simply "they are hard to kill". It is more so that they spew a huge amount of firepower and project a huge presence on the battlefield, and are FAST. A tank can outrun even the fastest scout suit. All tank drivers would agree, Proto Swarm launchers and proto Forge Guns are extremely scary to them and hurt A LOT. So if you slow down tanks to infantry speed, so you know they actually need to be with other teammates and be supported by infantry.As well as give them more HP to make up for this slower speed, because now they won't be able to re-position to avoid danger as well. So tank drivers will need to realize, their tanks aren't just invincible killing machines that can speed around the battlefield and kill as they please with no fear of dying, the mentality will switch to, ok I can take a lot of hits but I am slow and need my infantry buddies to help me stay alive. I can't cut too deep into enemy territory or I'll get cut off and killed.
The role of the tank will switch from: king of the battlefield face roll machine.
To the role of: Heavy Firepower used to help infantry advance and take out hardened targets and soak up hits for the infantry.
That is just what has come out of discussing the balance of tanks with some of the best tank players in the game. |
Drommy Hood
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
242
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 18:50:00 -
[29] - Quote
Drommy Hood wrote:Debacle Nano wrote:Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote:4 people should take out a tank easily. In this game each of those people is going to die a few times trying to take out one person. It's OP whether you like it or not. 4 people can take out a marauder that is well fit. Hell, 2 people can if the drivers dumb. AV personnel have to be persistent with damage. It's not an "Forge beats tank instantly" I come from both sides. I run a Surya but I also use a proto swarm. I have no problems killing marauders if I am persistent with my swarms. Lost 3 in the last match. Proto forge hurt me
23/0 in that one cos everyone was running round doing they're own thing and I had good gunners. Team work is OP  |
Mmkk333
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
229
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Posted - 2012.08.12 18:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
Debacle Nano wrote:As I said in the other thread, what do you think that they should nerf on the HAV that doesn't make it OP, but doesn't make it's function inert?
I say make the turn speed for the main gun 75% of the speed of what it is now, and make the top speed of the HAV 8.0m/s instead of the current 10m/s. This effectively nerfs tanks without people being able to complain their tank isn't a tank anymore. |
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