DUST Search - A discussion about balance.

Bones1182 wrote:

Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote:

Bones1182 wrote:

Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote:

1. CCP does not have a style of balancing. This is perfectly well and dandy in EvE(on the computer side), but this is not okay where we are. First person shooters need a steady balance to be considered skillful. We need a skillful games so we don't get wrecked by noobs as we are now.

2. Tanks take no skill to use. Things shouldn't get kills if they take no skill. I think the concept is simple enough.

3. The fps community will completely vanish without balance. This is a promise.

Just out of curiosity please name what you consider to be a well "balanced" FPS title where the main component is multiplayer and has vehicles. My experience in recent years of FPS has unfortunately been limited due to a lack of funds on my part or other games and things I wanted or needed at the time. I have played a decent amount of the COD series and halo but not much else unfortunately I have missed out on MAG which I had heard very good things about.

MAG

Well I never got to play that one and I bet there were still plenty of people who.cried about some weapon or other being OP from day one until now it just changes with the flavor of the week I am sure.


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Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 15:09:00 - [1] - Quote Note: Since this is a long post, I will highlight the most important points. I encourage you to read the whole thing because of all the time I have spent researching and writing the information you will read below. First and foremost, let me say that this game has a lot of potential. There would be no presence in this community if we thought this game was going to be atrocious as it is in this stage of its early life. Throughout these forums I have bashed the game and its developers in a harsh way. I apologize, but in some situations things need to be said in a distasteful way in order for the best outcome to occur. There are many positive aspects of this game, but talking about them is considered futile at the moment due to the fact that the developers are looking for things to fix. These things still need to be discussed and pondered on. Let's get down to the nitty gritty. First person shooters need a few requirements to maintain a constant flow of players. (1)Balance,(2) entertaining gameplay, (3)developer support, and (4)evolution are a few items that are necessary to keep a video game prospering and successful. Research and experience show that what I say is truthful and valid. (1)Modern Warfare 2 is an excellent example of a game that has a lack of balance. With grenade launchers and Scavenger Pro, a nuke is easily acquired. Similar to this game, players with gun game are trampled by something that can't be matched. (2)With technological advances, and the need to market video games successfully, entertaining gameplay is not to hard to come by. Video games have become a race for originality. No one wants to purchase a video game that costs sixty dollars, and is the exact same game they bought three months ago. This is the past. The basic ideals for Dust 514 are so revolutionary, they have people buying Playstation 3's so they can join and be a part of the newest innovations in technology. Entertaining gameplay is something that CCP excels in. (3)A good portion of this community knows that developer support is essential from personal experience. Once Zipper made 75% of their profit from MAG, all support for the MAG community ceased. Game-breakers like glitches stopped being patched, and we were left with a broken game, which lead to a good portion of the community leaving, stopping a lot of people from buying the MAG monthly content. Seeing they could rip the MAG community off, they tried the same thing with one of their more popular games(Socom 4). Zipper Interactive didn't understand progression in video games as our good friends at CCP do. This is probably why they are bankrupt and out of business now. (4)The always changing game is one of the things that excites me and my fellow beta testers most. This game will evolve into a kill for hire type game on a very large scale. Our actions will affect EvE online, benefiting both games. As you can see from my lengthy explanation above, there is one major problem with this game, balance is an issue. Sorry Lurchasaurus, people must be aware that the fact that tanks have the ability to parade the ground of battle and stomp on people who aren't in an opposing tank, an opposing dropship, or uselessly camping on top of a building with a sense of false accomplishment. Getting 40 kills and zero deaths because of an advantage that you aren't entitled to is immoral and quite frankly unacceptable in the first person shooter community. Arguments have been made to defend this style of gaming. Lurking around the forums, you will see posts and threads that look similar to this; "they can be destroyed," "tanks are underpowered," "I payed a lot of money and sp for those tanks," "go back to COD you whining Cod kiddie." I would like to address all of these arguments. The first two counterarguments are quite simple, they can be destroyed on extremely specific grounds. There needs to be at least two people with prototype swarm launchers or forge guns constantly shooting these tanks. There are a few problems with this. On most occasions, people who carry swarms or forges can be taken out by these tanks very easily. If they are taken out by these tanks in the process of there job, tanks will magically repair themselves. The third and fourth counterargument are poor ways to hide behind the fact that tanks are overpowered and they are easy ways to gain cheap kills. You aren't losing any money because you aren't dying. Skill points are gained right back because you are getting many kills without any deaths. Calling people Cod Kiddies seems to be the final resort for people who no longer want to argue against people who generally agree with first person shooters. Yes this game was made to have tanks like many others. This doesn't mean that they were meant to rule the game. If you deny they rule the game you are fooling yourself. I have never personally found myself running in fear from the best first person shooters in the world. I'd rather have twelve protoman clones on the opposite team as a major challenge then having one tank on the opposite team making success almost impossible. Lets be honest and sincere here, would you really be getting the same amount of kill as infantry on the battlefield? What do you think? Why are these pests welcome in this game? Feedback is welcome.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 15:24:00 - [2] - Quote Debacle Nano wrote: As I said in the other thread, what do you think that they should nerf on the HAV that doesn't make it OP, but doesn't make it's function inert? Armor by half People say its gonna be more expensive next build so keep it the same or just a little bit more expensive No missiles just those machine gun things
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 15:36:00 - [3] - Quote 4 people should take out a tank easily. In this game each of those people is going to die a few times trying to take out one person. It's OP whether you like it or not.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 19:32:00 - [4] - Quote To all the people who believe tanks aren't OP, please answer this one question... Would you be getting the same amount of kills while being infantry? Answer truthfully.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 20:39:00 - [5] - Quote Does the word skill mean anything to you? Hint: I'm not talking about skill points or grinding.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 20:49:00 - [6] - Quote I'm glad to know that EvE takes no skill and is simply grind to win. This is not and never will be EvE. Skill>Grind
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 22:14:00 - [7] - Quote Debacle Nano wrote: Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: I'm glad to know that EvE takes no skill and is simply grind to win. This is not and never will be EvE. Skill>Grind I'm sorry but you create a long thread about tanks being overpowered, how they need to be nerfed, and how they require no skill, when you can't provide valid support or even a valid nerf for the tanks. Tanks are a lot harder to manage than infantry. You have to know when and when not to turn modules on, when to pull out of the battle, estimating how long your tank will hold, and if you should engage or not. While when you're playing as infantry, you just hold down R1 and mess with the analog sticks. I don't know how to nerf them, I'm not a developer. Sure, maybe they are harder to manage, but they sure are a lot easier to keep alive. I'm sure you would suck when your not hiding behind your tank.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 22:43:00 - [8] - Quote Debacle Nano wrote: Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: I don't know how to nerf them, I'm not a developer. Sure, maybe they are harder to manage, but they sure are a lot easier to keep alive. I'm sure you would suck when your not hiding behind your tank. Your wrong. You can hide infantry. Tanks are not able to hide very well. We have to pull out to spawn if we want to get away from something. "I don't know how to nerf them, I'm not a developer." Well then you can't possible say they are overpowered if you don't know what is OP about them. "I'm sure you would suck when your not hiding behind your tank" Comment of a 10 year old. I have a proto assault and proto shotgun set up. Stop assuming son. Im sorry you are right. Tanks are underpowered. It's so hard to get kills with them. They don't have enough armor at all! Just because you have a setup doesn't mean you are good with it.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 23:07:00 - [9] - Quote Debacle Nano wrote: Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: Debacle Nano wrote: Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: I don't know how to nerf them, I'm not a developer. Sure, maybe they are harder to manage, but they sure are a lot easier to keep alive. I'm sure you would suck when your not hiding behind your tank. Your wrong. You can hide infantry. Tanks are not able to hide very well. We have to pull out to spawn if we want to get away from something. "I don't know how to nerf them, I'm not a developer." Well then you can't possible say they are overpowered if you don't know what is OP about them. "I'm sure you would suck when your not hiding behind your tank" Comment of a 10 year old. I have a proto assault and proto shotgun set up. Stop assuming son. Im sorry you are right. Tanks are underpowered. It's so hard to get kills with them. They don't have enough armor at all! Just because you have a setup doesn't mean you are good with it. I never said they were underpowered. Assuming again. Technically, I agreed with you at first. My next statement was a new, sarcastic idea. One of my own. You assumed that I assumed that you think tanks are underpowered. We could teach each other grammar and other technical aspects of English, or we can provide knowledgable and usable feedback for this beta.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 23:20:00 - [10] - Quote Feedback=tanks are OP support= it takes three to four infantry men to take down a heavily armored tank, while the tank can roam around the field taking out helpless infantrymen If you think everything I wrote in here was useless than I am quite sorry for wasting your time. I observed something in game, and I wrote it on the game's forums. I did this so the developers could look in further to the point that I'm trying to get across. If you can't respect the fact that I want the best for the game, then I again apologize for wasting your time. Even your EvE associates recognize and acknowledge the fact that this game isn't balanced. They say this will make for a boring game. I however, have a different point of view. If the game isn't balanced, it doesn't takes skill. This is true with all first person shooters. Remember this isn't EvE. No first person shooter wants a grind to win game.

Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 23:30:00 - [11] - Quote The tank can roam around for most of the game and destroy hopeless infantrymen actually doing something for the team. They aren't making as much isk as you because they die more. Remember that. I understand the concept will be similar, but lets be clear, no first person shooter wants a grind to win game.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 23:38:00 - [12] - Quote Why must you have three people specialize in something that takes no skill and is boring? Instead of helping on the battlefield by defending and attacking our objectives, people have to go around waisting there time destroying tanks. This is how most team goes because of tank abuse. Player 1. Assault Player 2. Assault Player 3. Assault Player 4-6: Useless sniper Player 7-8: AV person because they can't afford to lose any more money to tanks(These people could be useful as Assault players who take objectives). Player 9: Someone who enjoys and takes pride in AV. Player 10-12: Gunners or drivers of dropships/tanks
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 23:41:00 - [13] - Quote @nano Other fps aren't really grind to win. They have enough to get by well if they have enough skill over the other players. Old player should never destroy new players based on the sole fact that they are new.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 23:45:00 - [14] - Quote Who cares what protoman likes? We were just in a game talking about how useless tanks were. I doubt he likes tanks.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.13 02:36:00 - [15] - Quote ^ Grind to win doesn't work in fps.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.13 03:05:00 - [16] - Quote Yeah but this is a very large scale. Overall, other hardcore fps players and I will be staying with this game. The newbies won't as said before. We need a player base.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.13 15:57:00 - [17] - Quote Who cares how much they cost? In the end you are making more money anyway because you aren't dying.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.14 02:48:00 - [18] - Quote 1. CCP does not have a style of balancing. This is perfectly well and dandy in EvE(on the computer side), but this is not okay where we are. First person shooters need a steady balance to be considered skillful. We need a skillful games so we don't get wrecked by noobs as we are now. 2. Tanks take no skill to use. Things shouldn't get kills if they take no skill. I think the concept is simple enough. 3. The fps community will completely vanish without balance. This is a promise.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.14 04:24:00 - [19] - Quote Bones1182 wrote: Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: 1. CCP does not have a style of balancing. This is perfectly well and dandy in EvE(on the computer side), but this is not okay where we are. First person shooters need a steady balance to be considered skillful. We need a skillful games so we don't get wrecked by noobs as we are now. 2. Tanks take no skill to use. Things shouldn't get kills if they take no skill. I think the concept is simple enough. 3. The fps community will completely vanish without balance. This is a promise. Just out of curiosity please name what you consider to be a well "balanced" FPS title where the main component is multiplayer and has vehicles. My experience in recent years of FPS has unfortunately been limited due to a lack of funds on my part or other games and things I wanted or needed at the time. I have played a decent amount of the COD series and halo but not much else unfortunately I have missed out on MAG which I had heard very good things about. MAG
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.14 05:18:00 - [20] - Quote Valor: - Insanely accurate hip fire AR (scar) - Best LMG (MOD 1) - T1 sniper rifle tied with Raven (forgot the name lol) - Shotgun has most bullets (12 gauge pump) - Best .50 cal sniper because of most bullets (Rollins) Raven: - Most accurate assault rifle scoped (atac 200) - Best shotgun power wise (12 gauge pump) - SmG has fastest rate of fire (f90) - T1 sniper rifle tied with Valor (HM 90 SE) S.V.E.R: - AR that compensates for skill because of the relatively low rate of fire (Tamsen Mk2) - SMG has most ammo (Vipera) Raven>Valor>SVER ^for the good players at least

Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.14 05:25:00 - [21] - Quote Bones1182 wrote: Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: Bones1182 wrote: Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: 1. CCP does not have a style of balancing. This is perfectly well and dandy in EvE(on the computer side), but this is not okay where we are. First person shooters need a steady balance to be considered skillful. We need a skillful games so we don't get wrecked by noobs as we are now. 2. Tanks take no skill to use. Things shouldn't get kills if they take no skill. I think the concept is simple enough. 3. The fps community will completely vanish without balance. This is a promise. Just out of curiosity please name what you consider to be a well "balanced" FPS title where the main component is multiplayer and has vehicles. My experience in recent years of FPS has unfortunately been limited due to a lack of funds on my part or other games and things I wanted or needed at the time. I have played a decent amount of the COD series and halo but not much else unfortunately I have missed out on MAG which I had heard very good things about. MAG Well I never got to play that one and I bet there were still plenty of people who.cried about some weapon or other being OP from day one until now it just changes with the flavor of the week I am sure. The game started of unbalanced. SVER was too OP. It was nerfed, everything was fine.