DUST Search - A discussion about balance.

Lurchasaurus wrote:

Terrarim wrote:

No one is really answering why there are no AV mines in the game. They are a fundamental weapon verses armor in all battles and serve to destroy or slow vehicles down. At the moment its almost impossible for defensive forces to create chocke points due to the high speed of tanks and lavs.

Being on defence usually means using natural and unnatural terrain features to your advantage (defense should have the advantage even if a small one).

At the moment the maps seem to allow vehicles to really dictate insertion to battles at extreme speeds, Which is further compounded by the use of drop links and drop ships.

At least if you could slow down the armor then protecting mission objectives would be a little easier for the defenders.

Even if CCP don't want a front line type of game style. Not having AV Mines makes little sense to me as they are such a basic weapon that it doesn't make sense that they are not in the game.

again, we are getting ewar which will change everything. if your concerned about being able to slow or stop tanks, dont be.

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lDocHollidayl Imperfects Negative-Feedback 171	Posted - 2012.08.12 19:30:00 - [31] - Quote Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: 4 people should take out a tank easily. In this game each of those people is going to die a few times trying to take out one person. It's OP whether you like it or not. Not too certain. My argument only works if tanks go to the 1.2 million cost as it is rumored. Lets take those four players. Say they all die once. They killed a tank...presumably with 3 guys in it and they only had 4 deaths. But their total lost in isk is maybe 400,000. (My anti tank suit is not even 40,000) I would say I kill 10 a day.The tanks team lost 1.3 millionish. My argument also folds if EVE can supply nearly unlimited funds to Dust games. Currently my brother and I hunt tanks with extreme success. It is rough as a one person job but not two. With nano hives replenishing grenades it becomes even easier. The proto AV nades do 2100 damage. 3X. Not to mention AV may stick or home in on vehicles now. OP tanks will feel that for sure. Tank vs man...tank wins...no one will argue against that. BF3 has nasty tanks too. The difference is lower health and effective AV is available to the noobs too. But if you have a few engineers and have a tank with extra armor plates. It does not die without a concerted effort against it.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 19:32:00 - [32] - Quote To all the people who believe tanks aren't OP, please answer this one question... Would you be getting the same amount of kills while being infantry? Answer truthfully.
Lurchasaurus SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 808	Posted - 2012.08.12 19:34:00 - [33] - Quote Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: To all the people who believe tanks aren't OP, please answer this one question... Would you be getting the same amount of kills while being infantry? Answer truthfully. no, i use a forge gun and chase down vehicles and installations.
Terrarim 12	Posted - 2012.08.12 19:37:00 - [34] - Quote No one is really answering why there are no AV mines in the game. They are a fundamental weapon verses armor in all battles and serve to destroy or slow vehicles down. At the moment its almost impossible for defensive forces to create chocke points due to the high speed of tanks and lavs. Being on defence usually means using natural and unnatural terrain features to your advantage (defense should have the advantage even if a small one). At the moment the maps seem to allow vehicles to really dictate insertion to battles at extreme speeds, Which is further compounded by the use of drop links and drop ships. At least if you could slow down the armor then protecting mission objectives would be a little easier for the defenders. Even if CCP don't want a front line type of game style. Not having AV Mines makes little sense to me as they are such a basic weapon that it doesn't make sense that they are not in the game.
lDocHollidayl Imperfects Negative-Feedback 171	Posted - 2012.08.12 19:38:00 - [35] - Quote Tanks kill more. Not a surprise. When pricing is fixed. (1.2mil) Answer me this...Still OP? They cost 12x the cost of a great proto suit. I believe in a pro vs. pro game the tank might be able to kill what he costs but not much more. Too early to nerf.
Lurchasaurus SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 808	Posted - 2012.08.12 19:38:00 - [36] - Quote Terrarim wrote: No one is really answering why there are no AV mines in the game. They are a fundamental weapon verses armor in all battles and serve to destroy or slow vehicles down. At the moment its almost impossible for defensive forces to create chocke points due to the high speed of tanks and lavs. Being on defence usually means using natural and unnatural terrain features to your advantage (defense should have the advantage even if a small one). At the moment the maps seem to allow vehicles to really dictate insertion to battles at extreme speeds, Which is further compounded by the use of drop links and drop ships. At least if you could slow down the armor then protecting mission objectives would be a little easier for the defenders. Even if CCP don't want a front line type of game style. Not having AV Mines makes little sense to me as they are such a basic weapon that it doesn't make sense that they are not in the game. again, we are getting ewar which will change everything. if your concerned about being able to slow or stop tanks, dont be.
carl von oppenheimer Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2012.08.12 19:52:00 - [37] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: For the 4th time in 1 ******* day Tanks are not OP against 12 morons who are as dumb as a lamp post Except that those lamp posts actually manage to kill a marauder on occasion.
Terrarim 12	Posted - 2012.08.12 19:52:00 - [38] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Terrarim wrote: No one is really answering why there are no AV mines in the game. They are a fundamental weapon verses armor in all battles and serve to destroy or slow vehicles down. At the moment its almost impossible for defensive forces to create chocke points due to the high speed of tanks and lavs. Being on defence usually means using natural and unnatural terrain features to your advantage (defense should have the advantage even if a small one). At the moment the maps seem to allow vehicles to really dictate insertion to battles at extreme speeds, Which is further compounded by the use of drop links and drop ships. At least if you could slow down the armor then protecting mission objectives would be a little easier for the defenders. Even if CCP don't want a front line type of game style. Not having AV Mines makes little sense to me as they are such a basic weapon that it doesn't make sense that they are not in the game. again, we are getting ewar which will change everything. if your concerned about being able to slow or stop tanks, dont be. Can you explain as I don't know what "ewar" is.
Stupid Drunk1 Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 96	Posted - 2012.08.12 20:03:00 - [39] - Quote electronic warfare
Terrarim 12	Posted - 2012.08.12 20:05:00 - [40] - Quote Stupid Drunk1 wrote: electronic warfare ok thanks

carl von oppenheimer Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2012.08.12 20:10:00 - [41] - Quote Terrarim wrote: Can you explain as I don't know what "ewar" is. electronic warfare which In EvE are: Weapon disruption (weapon range & tracking). Target dampening (module range & lock time). ECM (inability to target anything, chance based). Target painting (signature bloom which effects missile damage and weapon tracking). Stasis webtifiers (slows down speed of the target by 60%). warp disruptors (to prevent warping). Each of those have "counter modules" which effects the same stats in a positive way but cannot, in general, fully counter the effects of an activated e-war module.
Stupid Drunk1 Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 96	Posted - 2012.08.12 20:19:00 - [42] - Quote Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: Getting 40 kills and zero deaths because of an advantage that you aren't entitled to is immoral and quite frankly unacceptable in the first person shooter community. Arguments have been made to defend this style of gaming. Quote: Research and experience show that what I say is truthful and valid. You entire post was pointless. You are looking for the fight to become balanced. Immoral gaming win virtual wars. Next do your homework, and reasearch the philosphy CCP uses, not every top FPS on the market blah garbage excuse CCP Soundwave wrote: Why would I want to balance a fight? That's never really been the goal in EVE and the war dec system wasn't built for that either. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1463797#post1463797 I love you CCP Soundwave. I can quote this into infinity whenever someone cries on the forums about "balancing".
JAG ONE 97	Posted - 2012.08.12 20:25:00 - [43] - Quote A few points to consider: 1. The main issue with tanks right now is that there is rarely any coordinated effort to take them out. This will change with the next build.. I guarantee it. 2. Tank prices are going to skyrocket in the next build. This will have a major effect on tank usage as now people will have to think about calling in another tank after losing the first one. 3. In the current build, the biggest issue I have with tanks is the obscene amount of SP and ISK you can rack up by using them. SP earned is based on war points, and everyone gets a +25 assist for every kill just for sitting in the tank, not to mention the war points earned for damage/destroyed vehicles and facilities. Why don't infantry get +25 for every kill someone gets if they are within close proximity? This is why dedicated tank drivers have huge amounts of SP in the current build - 40-50 M SP is probably the average for dedicated tank drivers. This is what makes tanks OP. Even if you don't like tanks, everyone should be driving them because they are easy mode to get SP and ISK. I am hoping this will change in the next build due to points 1 & 2 above.
Stupid Drunk1 Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 96	Posted - 2012.08.12 20:36:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Soundwave stated "I don't like balance." My friends first impression was: "You crazy Icelander, have you never played Eve?" But when I started thinking about what he said afterwards, how balance makes a game un-fun. If we were to talk about "balance" in the way he seems to define it, the game would be very un-fun. Should an Apocalypse and Megathron be able to orbit each other at 50 clicks, shooting each other with their respective racial guns, and die at the same time? Of course not! While that is "balanced," that is certainly not fun. & you want that for DUST 514, simply NO
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 20:39:00 - [45] - Quote Does the word skill mean anything to you? Hint: I'm not talking about skill points or grinding.
J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 648	Posted - 2012.08.12 20:40:00 - [46] - Quote I don't mind tanks themselves, but the spawn points being fixed with no cover, along with in general some poor FLS gameplay mechanics bug me. My biggest issue with balance is the fact that a person with better gear and not necessarily more skill can beat me by virtue of the fact that they have better gear.
Stupid Drunk1 Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 96	Posted - 2012.08.12 20:44:00 - [47] - Quote Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: Does the word skill mean anything to you? Hint: I'm not talking about skill points or grinding. That was an employee paid by CCP, who has very very public thoughts on balancing, CCP Soundwave: wrote: GÇ£Why balancing is bad, monkeys are good, and how to design games with that in mind.GÇ¥ giving an advantage (good ships), giving them a reason to take risks (such as imbalanced rewards, like moons). The practical implementation of moons is awful, but the idea of such an imbalanced reward is good. If thereGÇÖs no advantage or reward, gameplay is boring. You donGÇÖt build huge amounts of man hours and organization to deal with it. If all ships were the same, in EvE, weGÇÖd be bored to death. One of the keys is to give players equal access to all the same imbalanced items. All I telling you, is plenty of people have called this hearesy, but truth is, CCP GOVERNING LOGIC CCP Soundwave wrote: Why would I want to balance a fight? That's never really been the goal in EVE and the war dec system wasn't built for that either. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1463797#post1463797 I love you CCP Soundwave. I can quote this into infinity whenever someone cries on the forums about "balancing".
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 20:49:00 - [48] - Quote I'm glad to know that EvE takes no skill and is simply grind to win. This is not and never will be EvE. Skill>Grind
Stupid Drunk1 Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 96	Posted - 2012.08.12 20:50:00 - [49] - Quote Yay you finnaly got it Omnipotent Success for the drunk, Now that you understand dont expect anything to ever be perfect balanced in EvE DUST 514
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.08.12 20:51:00 - [50] - Quote there is also this video http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance

Alshadow Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 71	Posted - 2012.08.12 21:00:00 - [51] - Quote dude calm down OP, you a waaaay over stating how powerful tanks are, for one... tanks should require 3 people to take out as any tank thats a threat has 3 people in them, and 2, the vast majority of tanks are scrubs that get taken out decently fast, its only every now and then that you have a badass maradur that wipes the board, and even when that happens he didnt do it by himself, and he didnt do it without opposition, he did it because there is a rock paper scizors to this game AV, infantry and vehicle, his team obviously has what was needed to beat yours in that specific match. ALSO im gonna state that you cant just have AV and infantry and take out a team with badass vehicles, your gonna need some vehicles of your own, majority of the time that a tank wipes the match is because he IS the most powerful thing on the field, i rarely see a badass tank on both sides, but once there is grouping this would happen more often
Alshadow Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 71	Posted - 2012.08.12 21:02:00 - [52] - Quote Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: I'm glad to know that EvE takes no skill and is simply grind to win. This is not and never will be EvE. Skill>Grind you still fail to understand how this game works..... its not "most skill wins" and it isnt "most grinding wins" either, both of those things are helpful but its more "right class vs the right class wins"
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.12 21:05:00 - [53] - Quote Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: I'm glad to know that EvE takes no skill and is simply grind to win. This is not and never will be EvE. Skill>Grind There is no grind in EvE skills are trained passively and no amount of skill points will save you from being an idiot and not knowing how to control your ship. It not action based but you still have to know how and be good at it. Its just different skill set but it is a skill.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.08.12 21:06:00 - [54] - Quote case in point http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6so9AT4UydQ this would be an 18 wheeler with a pop gun taking out a tank and winning. In a FPS point of view it would be like the forklift beating a scorpion in halo.
Debacle Nano Shadow Company HQ 639	Posted - 2012.08.12 22:02:00 - [55] - Quote Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: I'm glad to know that EvE takes no skill and is simply grind to win. This is not and never will be EvE. Skill>Grind I'm sorry but you create a long thread about tanks being overpowered, how they need to be nerfed, and how they require no skill, when you can't provide valid support or even a valid nerf for the tanks. Tanks are a lot harder to manage than infantry. You have to know when and when not to turn modules on, when to pull out of the battle, estimating how long your tank will hold, and if you should engage or not. While when you're playing as infantry, you just hold down R1 and mess with the analog sticks.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 22:14:00 - [56] - Quote Debacle Nano wrote: Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: I'm glad to know that EvE takes no skill and is simply grind to win. This is not and never will be EvE. Skill>Grind I'm sorry but you create a long thread about tanks being overpowered, how they need to be nerfed, and how they require no skill, when you can't provide valid support or even a valid nerf for the tanks. Tanks are a lot harder to manage than infantry. You have to know when and when not to turn modules on, when to pull out of the battle, estimating how long your tank will hold, and if you should engage or not. While when you're playing as infantry, you just hold down R1 and mess with the analog sticks. I don't know how to nerf them, I'm not a developer. Sure, maybe they are harder to manage, but they sure are a lot easier to keep alive. I'm sure you would suck when your not hiding behind your tank.
Elrick Mercer 23	Posted - 2012.08.12 22:21:00 - [57] - Quote There are people in this thread who defend tanks who I have seen in other FPS and couldn't do a thing with a gun. You know who you are! Good OP Omni +1
Debacle Nano Shadow Company HQ 639	Posted - 2012.08.12 22:26:00 - [58] - Quote Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: I don't know how to nerf them, I'm not a developer. Sure, maybe they are harder to manage, but they sure are a lot easier to keep alive. I'm sure you would suck when your not hiding behind your tank. Your wrong. You can hide infantry. Tanks are not able to hide very well. We have to pull out to spawn if we want to get away from something. "I don't know how to nerf them, I'm not a developer." Well then you can't possible say they are overpowered if you don't know what is OP about them. "I'm sure you would suck when your not hiding behind your tank" Comment of a 10 year old. I have a proto assault and proto shotgun set up. Stop assuming son.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.08.12 22:36:00 - [59] - Quote I shall nickname my forge gun the can opener.
Omnipotent lilmamaj Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 205	Posted - 2012.08.12 22:43:00 - [60] - Quote Debacle Nano wrote: Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: I don't know how to nerf them, I'm not a developer. Sure, maybe they are harder to manage, but they sure are a lot easier to keep alive. I'm sure you would suck when your not hiding behind your tank. Your wrong. You can hide infantry. Tanks are not able to hide very well. We have to pull out to spawn if we want to get away from something. "I don't know how to nerf them, I'm not a developer." Well then you can't possible say they are overpowered if you don't know what is OP about them. "I'm sure you would suck when your not hiding behind your tank" Comment of a 10 year old. I have a proto assault and proto shotgun set up. Stop assuming son. Im sorry you are right. Tanks are underpowered. It's so hard to get kills with them. They don't have enough armor at all! Just because you have a setup doesn't mean you are good with it.



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