DUST Search - A discussion about balance.

Ender Storm wrote:

Bones1182 wrote:

Icy Tiger wrote:

Sorry, I skipped a couple pages, but just getting in, my well fitted tank cost me about 18 000 000 SP to get all the parts. Consider the armor, shields, turrets, large turret, repairers, damage control units, nano shielding, ninite armor, and the tank itself which is about 1 200 000 SP in itself to attain.

Meanwhile, my anti tank fit cost me around 5 000 000 SP. Prototype Forge, Prototype Heavy Suit, Carthum Scrambler, and the rest.

A lot of the skills actually overlap like mechanics, electronics, shield skills, armor upgrades and a few of the other basic skills. THerefore any discussion of which build takes more SP needs to exclude those skill sets and consider only the ones required to get into a proto forge and fat suit or the marauder and its guns lets say small missiles and large rail, the proto versions.

Note I am not picking on you Icy Tiger you were just a conveniently quote.

I think we need all or at least the majority of the weapons and gear before this discussion will be truly meaningful and less trolly and flame filled. Although this particular thread has not been nearly as bad as some of the others. So kudos to all for being at least a bit more civil.

Anyway ammount of SP should not equal to "I win" scenarios. The beauty of EVE is that the small guy can ruin the big fat fellow day, and the reason most PVP people fly affordable stuff and not pimped stuff most of the time.


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Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.12 16:43:00 - [1] - Quote This actually an extremely well thought out and intelligent OP. While I agree that this game still needs some serious love on the gameplay side of the equation. We don't yet have all the possible anti vehicle weapons that we will on release. Tanks definitely rule the battlefield in this build especially when one team has all the tanks and the other randoms don't have any AV skills. I believe that without any nerf on the tanks balance will return when we get more AV options. Stasis webs will absolutely destroy a tanks main defense, mobility after they can't hide and repair if they can't run away in the first place. Also new types of.forge guns in the next build may be a whole lot more powerful. We don't know yet. In the end I think they need to give us the core game mechanics that will make a good game. We also need all the weapons so we can actually test the balance without having gaping holes in our arsenal. Good post all around +1 to you for making a sensible that explains in detail what you feel are major problems and while I may not agree I do see and acknowledge your argument.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.12 17:17:00 - [2] - Quote Shadoe Wolf wrote: @ Omni, this is the best post I have seen you make. It was well thought out with valid points. I do agre that there is still work to be done. But as far as tanks are concerned, the do appear as OP. but we also don't have all AV items implemented at the moment. As the beta progresses, with proper grouping and ewar items in place, those tanks will start dropping pretty quick. Plus, with sp and isk gains at normal rates, I don't forsee many tanks on the field at once. I just hope to see sticky RE so they can be stuck to vehicles. With AV grenades being able to stick to vehicles that may just cover that base, but that would be cool new and different places to hide them for ambushes at any rate.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.12 21:05:00 - [3] - Quote Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: I'm glad to know that EvE takes no skill and is simply grind to win. This is not and never will be EvE. Skill>Grind There is no grind in EvE skills are trained passively and no amount of skill points will save you from being an idiot and not knowing how to control your ship. It not action based but you still have to know how and be good at it. Its just different skill set but it is a skill.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.13 15:50:00 - [4] - Quote Icy Tiger wrote: Sorry, I skipped a couple pages, but just getting in, my well fitted tank cost me about 18 000 000 SP to get all the parts. Consider the armor, shields, turrets, large turret, repairers, damage control units, nano shielding, ninite armor, and the tank itself which is about 1 200 000 SP in itself to attain. Meanwhile, my anti tank fit cost me around 5 000 000 SP. Prototype Forge, Prototype Heavy Suit, Carthum Scrambler, and the rest. A lot of the skills actually overlap like mechanics, electronics, shield skills, armor upgrades and a few of the other basic skills. THerefore any discussion of which build takes more SP needs to exclude those skill sets and consider only the ones required to get into a proto forge and fat suit or the marauder and its guns lets say small missiles and large rail, the proto versions. Note I am not picking on you Icy Tiger you were just a conveniently quote. I think we need all or at least the majority of the weapons and gear before this discussion will be truly meaningful and less trolly and flame filled. Although this particular thread has not been nearly as bad as some of the others. So kudos to all for being at least a bit more civil.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.13 16:49:00 - [5] - Quote Ender Storm wrote: Bones1182 wrote: Icy Tiger wrote: Sorry, I skipped a couple pages, but just getting in, my well fitted tank cost me about 18 000 000 SP to get all the parts. Consider the armor, shields, turrets, large turret, repairers, damage control units, nano shielding, ninite armor, and the tank itself which is about 1 200 000 SP in itself to attain. Meanwhile, my anti tank fit cost me around 5 000 000 SP. Prototype Forge, Prototype Heavy Suit, Carthum Scrambler, and the rest. A lot of the skills actually overlap like mechanics, electronics, shield skills, armor upgrades and a few of the other basic skills. THerefore any discussion of which build takes more SP needs to exclude those skill sets and consider only the ones required to get into a proto forge and fat suit or the marauder and its guns lets say small missiles and large rail, the proto versions. Note I am not picking on you Icy Tiger you were just a conveniently quote. I think we need all or at least the majority of the weapons and gear before this discussion will be truly meaningful and less trolly and flame filled. Although this particular thread has not been nearly as bad as some of the others. So kudos to all for being at least a bit more civil. Anyway ammount of SP should not equal to "I win" scenarios. The beauty of EVE is that the small guy can ruin the big fat fellow day, and the reason most PVP people fly affordable stuff and not pimped stuff most of the time. Very true I was just trying to sort out the argument of which cost more SP since that has been going on for awhile. That is also why I say we need the full arsenal of weapons before balance can truly be discussed. With things like stasis webs, which slow things down or AV mines maybe, tanks will be easily destroyed. However with the addition of a few more AV options I think they will be fine but we won't know until we get more stuff that is designed to counter vehicles. I really can't wait for orbital strikes. They will be really OP.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.14 04:08:00 - [6] - Quote Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: 1. CCP does not have a style of balancing. This is perfectly well and dandy in EvE(on the computer side), but this is not okay where we are. First person shooters need a steady balance to be considered skillful. We need a skillful games so we don't get wrecked by noobs as we are now. 2. Tanks take no skill to use. Things shouldn't get kills if they take no skill. I think the concept is simple enough. 3. The fps community will completely vanish without balance. This is a promise. Just out of curiosity please name what you consider to be a well "balanced" FPS title where the main component is multiplayer and has vehicles. My experience in recent years of FPS has unfortunately been limited due to a lack of funds on my part or other games and things I wanted or needed at the time. I have played a decent amount of the COD series and halo but not much else unfortunately I have missed out on MAG which I had heard very good things about.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.14 05:19:00 - [7] - Quote Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: Bones1182 wrote: Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: 1. CCP does not have a style of balancing. This is perfectly well and dandy in EvE(on the computer side), but this is not okay where we are. First person shooters need a steady balance to be considered skillful. We need a skillful games so we don't get wrecked by noobs as we are now. 2. Tanks take no skill to use. Things shouldn't get kills if they take no skill. I think the concept is simple enough. 3. The fps community will completely vanish without balance. This is a promise. Just out of curiosity please name what you consider to be a well "balanced" FPS title where the main component is multiplayer and has vehicles. My experience in recent years of FPS has unfortunately been limited due to a lack of funds on my part or other games and things I wanted or needed at the time. I have played a decent amount of the COD series and halo but not much else unfortunately I have missed out on MAG which I had heard very good things about. MAG Well I never got to play that one and I bet there were still plenty of people who.cried about some weapon or other being OP from day one until now it just changes with the flavor of the week I am sure.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.14 14:06:00 - [8] - Quote As I said I have never had the chance to play MAG most games go one of two ways the flavor of the month is cried about until someone finds a way to beat it or as you said in MAG it never changed. Much like Unreal Tournament or Halo where one or two weapons are considered the best options in any situation.