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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9817
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Posted - 2015.05.13 22:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
PLEASE READ SECOND POST BEFORE RESPONDING
Brace yourselves, for what you are about to hear will shake up the very fabric on your known reality. It involves correcting a glaring imbalance that no one seems to talk about so therefore Old CCP would never correct themselves, and maybe something even New CCP won't care much for because their data doesn't reflect anything major (though I presume mostly because people are stubborn and want to use the suit they want to use regardless and make it almost work somehow).
What I want to talk about is the trade-off between base stats on all dropsuits and why Amarr suits are too slow and Minmatar suits are too fast.
Current Dropsuits
When you examine the base stats of our current dropsuits, you can see where old CCP got lazy and hoped for the best. The basic theme in Gallente and Caldari would be the model, and Amarr would get extra HP in exchange for less speed and Minmatar would get less HP in exchange for more speed. However, instead of doing this on a case by case basic, Old CCP basically applied the same buffs and nerfs to all (i.e. all Amarr dropsuits were made 0.20 m/s slower across the board besides logi, despite that this effect is drastically different on a scout than a sentinel).
Let's have a deeper look:
Scouts: Total HP, Movement speed
Gallente and Caldari: 200 HP, 5.45 m/s
Amarr: 230 HP, 5.25 m/s
Minmatar: 170, 5.65 m/s
Observation: Amarr gets 30 more HP for 0.20 m/s speed (3.67% reduction), Minmatar gets 0.20 m/s speed for 30 HP
Assaults: Total HP, Movement speed
Gallente and Caldari: 430 HP, 5.00 m/s
Amarr: 460 HP, 4.80 m/s
Minmatar: 400, 5.3 m/s
Observation: Amarr gets 30 more HP for 0.20 m/s speed (4.00% reduction), Minmatar gets 0.30 m/s speed for 30 HP
Logis: Total HP, Movement speed
Gallente and Caldari: 270HP, 4.7 m/s
Amarr: 300HP, 4.55 m/s
Minmatar: 240, 5 m/s
Observation: Amarr gets 30 more HP for 0.15 m/s speed (3.19% reduction), Minmatar gets 0.30 m/s speed for 30 HP
Commandos: Total HP, Movement speed
Gallente and Caldari: 650 HP, 4.05 m/s
Amarr: 680 HP, 3.85 m/s
Minmatar: 620, 4.25m/s
Observation: Amarr gets 30 more HP for 0.20 m/s speed (a 4.94% reduction), Minmatar gets 0.20 m/s speed for 30 HP
Sentinels: Total HP, Movement speed
Gallente and Caldari: 915 HP, 3.85 m/s
Amarr: 960 HP, 3.65 m/s
Minmatar: 870, 4.05 m/s
Observation: Amarr gets 45 more HP for 0.20 m/s speed (5.19% reduction), Minmatar gets 0.20 m/s speed for 45 HP
Overall Reflections: Giving each suit a standard 2.0 m/s speed penalty for Amarr while giving Minmatar varying 2.0 - 3.0 m/s speed increases creates awkward situations where the a Minmatar suit is faster and has more HP than the Amarr role one lighter. For example, the Minmatar Assault is 0.05 m/s faster than the Amarr scout and has 170 more HP. The Minmatar Sentinel is 0.20 m/s faster than the Amarr Commando and has 190 more HP. This stat lines really should not exist and there should be clear divides between the roles.
Proposed Stats For Suits
There are two obvious ways to adjust these stats. One is by tweaking the HP, and the other is by tweaking speed. Given that changes in HP tend to spawn loads of other complaints, I suggest we amend this by speed. So what do we have in game to compare movement speed and HP? Armor plates.
Standard Armor Plate: 85 HP for 3% speed nerf.
Enhanced Armor Plate: 110 HP for 4% speed nerf.
Complex Armor Plate: 135 HP for 5% speed nerf.
Or in other words,
Stadard Armor Plate: 28.3 HP per 1% speed nerf
Enhanced Armor Plate: 27.5 HP per 1% speed nerf
Complex Armor Plate: 25 HP per 1% speed nerf
So for simplicity, let's say every 30 HP is 1% speed nerf from the Gallente and Caldari model, meaning all suits will be adjusted by 1% except for Sentinels who will be adjsuted by 1.5% because they fluctuate by 45 HP. So the new stats will look like this:
Scouts
Gallente and Caldari: 5.45 m/s (same)
Amarr: 5.40 m/s (5.45 * 0.99)
Minmatar: 5.51 m/s (5.45 / 0.99)
Assaults
Gallente and Caldari: 5.00 m/s
Amarr: 4.95 m/s
Minmatar: 5.05 m/s
Logis
Gallente and Caldari: 4.70 m/s
Amarr: 4.65 m/s
Minmatar: 4.75 m/s
Commandos
Gallente and Caldari: 4.05 m/s
Amarr: 4.01 m/s
Minmatar: 4.09 m/s
Sentinels
Gallente and Caldari: 3.85 m/s
Amarr: 3.79 m/s
Minmatar: 3.91 m/s
Overal Reflections: The roles are no longer overlapping in terms of speed thus making them more distinctive, and the base HP and speed are more logically balanced based on a set ratio.
Amarr are the good guys
Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9817
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Posted - 2015.05.13 22:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
I am open to all feedback and criticism, but please come with a response that is accompanied by reasoning and is not anecdotal.
Amarr are the good guys
Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
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Kierkegaard Soren
Eridani Light Horse Battalion
801
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Posted - 2015.05.13 23:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
This seems perfectly reasonable and fixes a fundamental error that's been bugging me for some time. Amarr suits do not feel significantly tougher than their minmatar equivalents, but minmatar suits definitely have better performance with their speed buff. It never felt right.
Dedicated Commando.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing."
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
22472
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Posted - 2015.05.14 00:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think I have thread about this somewhere or, at least have expressed my will to amend this and make speeds/ehp more logical. Since I am already looking at flattened slot progression, this could be a double whammy.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8722
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Posted - 2015.05.14 00:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Since I am already looking at flattened slot progression, this could be a double whammy.
I see you insist on nerfing cynicism.
I want a respec.
There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9818
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Posted - 2015.05.14 00:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I think I have thread about this somewhere or, at least have expressed my will to amend this and make speeds/ehp more logical. Since I am already looking at flattened slot progression, this could be a double whammy.
I don't know why I expected any other response. CCP Rattati is the hero we need AND the hero we deserve.
Amarr are the good guys
Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
22473
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Posted - 2015.05.14 00:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Another thing that can be done, or two actually, are faction fitting bonuses, i really like them because they can be seen like a mini wow set bonus, and more efficacy bonuses.
This is also all in relation to our work on an improved progression design.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
6388
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Posted - 2015.05.14 00:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I think I have thread about this somewhere or, at least have expressed my will to amend this and make speeds/ehp more logical. Since I am already looking at flattened slot progression, this could be a double whammy. I don't know why I expected any other response. CCP Rattati is the hero we need AND the hero we deserve.
Hero? We need a saint to fix this game.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
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Heimdallr69
Negative-Feedback.
5220
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Posted - 2015.05.14 00:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Man I read all that and didn't find a single thing to argue about...I was wondering why Amarr speed was 4.8 when it's not a huge hp difference, it's like a complex plate that's missing 100 armor..also I don't know if you took into account that gal ass has more shields than Amarr, not a lot but still.
Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
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Faquira Bleuetta
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
500
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Posted - 2015.05.14 01:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I think I have thread about this somewhere or, at least have expressed my will to amend this and make speeds/ehp more logical. Since I am already looking at flattened slot progression, this could be a double whammy.
all racial suit have or should have a free bonus equal to basic module to their stats base suit
for amarr add 85 hp armor(basic amour)and -3% speed penalty but remove the stamina bonus (it will be same stamina as the gallente suit) |
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
10163
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Posted - 2015.05.14 03:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I think I have thread about this somewhere or, at least have expressed my will to amend this and make speeds/ehp more logical. Since I am already looking at flattened slot progression, this could be a double whammy.
If you did flattened slot progression I would ******* love you forever and it is worth the ban to use expletives to illustrate emphasis.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
19013
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Posted - 2015.05.14 03:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I think I have thread about this somewhere or, at least have expressed my will to amend this and make speeds/ehp more logical. Since I am already looking at flattened slot progression, this could be a double whammy. I don't know why I expected any other response. CCP Rattati is the hero we need AND the hero we deserve.
How is this possible Aero? Rattati for Emperor!
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
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shaman oga
Dead Man's Game
4670
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Posted - 2015.05.14 06:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
The main problem i see with this is that HP>all and for all of those who don't tank a lot of HP this would be a problem.
I would rather give major drawback to HP modules.
I have both amarr and min ass, both amarr and min sent, lvl 3 amarr scout and lvl.5 min scout.
The only suit which feel UP is amarr scout.
Considering that you have generally more low slots on Amarr suit then is up to you how to fit it.
I don't agree.
Shaman's Shack - A place to trade
Training to be a packed RE master launcher
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6260
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Posted - 2015.05.14 06:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Another thing that can be done, or two actually, are faction fitting bonuses, i really like them because they can be seen like a mini wow set bonus, and more efficacy bonuses.
This is also all in relation to our work on an improved progression design.
Make Frame Suit skill levels provide a fitting bonus for racially themed fitting styles. Armor Repairers for Gallente, Shield Extenders for Caldari, ect.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
10711
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Posted - 2015.05.14 06:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
I'm a firm supporter in giving Caldari more base shields in exchange for speed.
Make them the Amarr of Shields to explain it to someone who doesn't know how EVE does it.
I just don't like how Shield tanking in DUST is seen as only a hit and run type playstyle. I want hit and run and Stand and deliver from range.
But that's just me.
Sgt Kirk's Gallente Propaganda Youtube Channel
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shaman oga
Dead Man's Game
4670
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Posted - 2015.05.14 08:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:This simply isn't happening.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=172200&find=unread
CCP Rattati wrote:I think I have thread about this somewhere or, at least have expressed my will to amend this and make speeds/ehp more logical. Since I am already looking at flattened slot progression, this could be a double whammy.
Glad you have changed your mind.
Shaman's Shack - A place to trade
Training to be a packed RE master launcher
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3109
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Posted - 2015.05.14 08:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Another thing that can be done, or two actually, are faction fitting bonuses, i really like them because they can be seen like a mini wow set bonus, and more efficacy bonuses.
This is also all in relation to our work on an improved progression design.
I have some hesitations with this. I think there should be some suggestions present in how the suits fit but this almost comes across like "Fit this way or be penalized" (aka if you don't fit this way, you are not being as optimal as you could possibly be).
Maybe some minor 'goals' like for caldari suits "Fit a shield recharger / regulator, get X", where x could be 1-2 hp more base shield recharge or something. Or for amarr suits something like "Fit two armor plates, get Y".
For example one that I'd love to see on caldari sentinels is "fit a shield regulator, get +1.5 armor repair" - this incentivizes racial tanking, while mitigating the penalty of not fitting reactive plates or armor repairers. A lot of careful consideration would have to go into these so that they become choices with their own pro's and cons, with the option to completely ignore them if you want.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
22486
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Posted - 2015.05.14 08:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
shaman oga wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:This simply isn't happening. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=172200&find=unreadCCP Rattati wrote:I think I have thread about this somewhere or, at least have expressed my will to amend this and make speeds/ehp more logical. Since I am already looking at flattened slot progression, this could be a double whammy. Glad you have changed your mind.
Yep, I should have said "right now", as there were more broken things that needed fixing.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1057
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Posted - 2015.05.14 09:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:shaman oga wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:This simply isn't happening. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=172200&find=unreadCCP Rattati wrote:I think I have thread about this somewhere or, at least have expressed my will to amend this and make speeds/ehp more logical. Since I am already looking at flattened slot progression, this could be a double whammy. Glad you have changed your mind. Yep, I should have said "right now", as there were more broken things that needed fixing.
Well I'll ask a couple questions. What's the benefit in having the same slot layout across all tiers vs only having one dropsuit with one slot layout?
Does a standard suit count as a separate suit vs an advance or prototype suit? Meaning are three unique caldari assault suits each with different slot layouts and they all go into memory and get loaded when needed or is there one unique caldari assault suit that gets loaded with different settings?
I'm asking this because depending on your answer, wouldn't tiercide provide a performance boost and free up resources? |
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
22489
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Posted - 2015.05.14 09:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:shaman oga wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:This simply isn't happening. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=172200&find=unreadCCP Rattati wrote:I think I have thread about this somewhere or, at least have expressed my will to amend this and make speeds/ehp more logical. Since I am already looking at flattened slot progression, this could be a double whammy. Glad you have changed your mind. Yep, I should have said "right now", as there were more broken things that needed fixing. Well I'll ask a couple questions. What's the benefit in having the same slot layout across all tiers vs only having one dropsuit with one slot layout? Does a standard suit count as a separate suit vs an advance or prototype suit? Meaning are three unique caldari assault suits each with different slot layouts and they all go into memory and get loaded when needed or is there one unique caldari assault suit that gets loaded with different settings? I'm asking this because depending on your answer, wouldn't tiercide provide a performance boost and free up resources?
No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8725
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Posted - 2015.05.14 09:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity.
Why not fold the PG/CPU capacity into the dropsuit skills rather than tiering the suits?
IE divide the difference between STD and PRO by 5 and add that amount at each amarr assault or min sentinel or whatever.
Accomplishes the same thing without having to keep the additional database clutter or price tiering
There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
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Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5158
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Posted - 2015.05.14 10:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity.
Why not fold the PG/CPU capacity into the dropsuit skills rather than tiering the suits? IE divide the difference between STD and PRO by 5 and add that amount at each amarr assault or min sentinel or whatever. Accomplishes the same thing without having to keep the additional database clutter or price tiering
Changing slot layout can be done in a hotfix with limited Dev cost
Changing skills and eliminating suits requires a client patch and a substantial dev effort.
Also, the pricing differential between the suit tiers isn't a bad thing to keep.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8725
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Posted - 2015.05.14 10:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
It may be effort intensive but it would be worth it to simplify the progression for players As well as reducing market and Ui clutter.
The more intuitive DUST is to the averrage player, the more likely we are to see some player retention.
There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1057
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Posted - 2015.05.14 11:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity.
three different suits to represent player progression yes? then there's another way of handling the pg/cpu.
use the prototype suit slot layout, with an advance suit pg/cpu fitting (this is just an example for simplicity). then adding fittiing optimization skills for pretty much every module category. Shield extender optimization would decrease pg use of shield extenders, shield recharger optimaztion would decrease cpu use for examples. increasing these optimization skills would free up or make more efficient use of slots in terms of fitting resources.
In other words, imagine the rail rifle optimization skill, when at level 5, reduced the fitting requirements of a proto rail rifle down to the advance version allowing you to fit on to the suit with ease.
This does a bunch of things.
1. player progression is tied to skill investment
2. less dropsuits
3. dropsuits become more versatile through skill investment
4. Its alot easier to balance. instead of balancing 12 assault suits of varying power levels, you need only balance 4 suits. This is good because some suits at standard level are barely viable where the same suit at proto is much more effective because of its increased slot layout. for example, caldari assault at standard offers a 3 second shield delay at max skills, where a proto variant offers a 1.60 second shield delay only possible through multiple low slots that the standard variant doesnt have.
did this make sense?
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
10177
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Posted - 2015.05.14 11:21:00 -
[25] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Well I'll ask a couple questions. What's the benefit in having the same slot layout across all tiers vs only having one dropsuit with one slot layout? Does a standard suit count as a separate suit vs an advance or prototype suit? Meaning are three unique caldari assault suits each with different slot layouts and they all go into memory and get loaded when needed or is there one unique caldari assault suit that gets loaded with different settings? I'm asking this because depending on your answer, wouldn't tiercide provide a performance boost and free up resources? No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity.
Right, but if you knock out the power-levels entirely and go with one dropsuit per (-JUST- (racial) assault, for instance) then you knock out a -HUGE- amount of issues in one fell swoop.
The feeling of progression does not overshadow the feeling of half-decent performance.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1057
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Posted - 2015.05.14 11:21:00 -
[26] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity.
Why not fold the PG/CPU capacity into the dropsuit skills rather than tiering the suits? IE divide the difference between STD and PRO by 5 and add that amount at each amarr assault or min sentinel or whatever. Accomplishes the same thing without having to keep the additional database clutter or price tiering
i like the way youre keeping it simple.
honestly just adding one extra skill to each category would do it. shield and armor optimization skills would reduce fitting cost by 5% per level as an example yes? |
Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
10177
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Posted - 2015.05.14 11:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity.
three different suits to represent player progression yes? then there's another way of handling the pg/cpu. use the prototype suit slot layout, with an advance suit pg/cpu fitting (this is just an example for simplicity). then adding fittiing optimization skills for pretty much every module category. Shield extender optimization would decrease pg use of shield extenders, shield recharger optimaztion would decrease cpu use for examples. increasing these optimization skills would free up or make more efficient use of slots in terms of fitting resources. In other words, imagine the rail rifle optimization skill, when at level 5, reduced the fitting requirements of a proto rail rifle down to the advance version allowing you to fit on to the suit with ease. This does a bunch of things. 1. player progression is tied to skill investment 2. less dropsuits 3. dropsuits become more versatile through skill investment 4. Its alot easier to balance. instead of balancing 12 assault suits of varying power levels, you need only balance 4 suits. This is good because some suits at standard level are barely viable where the same suit at proto is much more effective because of its increased slot layout. for example, caldari assault at standard offers a 3 second shield delay at max skills, where a proto variant offers a 1.60 second shield delay only possible through multiple low slots that the standard variant doesnt have. did this make sense?
Pretty much this. Progression is already jacked up in a handful of roles that don't even become useful until Prototype - take a look at the Scouts and their cloak usage, for instance.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
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Melchiah ARANeAE
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
604
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Posted - 2015.05.14 11:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
I am think all suits (besides the pure shield tanking caldari) should also get an innate reduction to speed penalties as well. Maybe 30% for amarr, 20% for gallente and 10% for min? Maybe give shield extended penalty reductions for shield suits as well? Cal being 30% and min being 20%?
We want cake and tea.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1057
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Posted - 2015.05.14 11:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity.
three different suits to represent player progression yes? then there's another way of handling the pg/cpu. use the prototype suit slot layout, with an advance suit pg/cpu fitting (this is just an example for simplicity). then adding fittiing optimization skills for pretty much every module category. Shield extender optimization would decrease pg use of shield extenders, shield recharger optimaztion would decrease cpu use for examples. increasing these optimization skills would free up or make more efficient use of slots in terms of fitting resources. In other words, imagine the rail rifle optimization skill, when at level 5, reduced the fitting requirements of a proto rail rifle down to the advance version allowing you to fit on to the suit with ease. This does a bunch of things. 1. player progression is tied to skill investment 2. less dropsuits 3. dropsuits become more versatile through skill investment 4. Its alot easier to balance. instead of balancing 12 assault suits of varying power levels, you need only balance 4 suits. This is good because some suits at standard level are barely viable where the same suit at proto is much more effective because of its increased slot layout. for example, caldari assault at standard offers a 3 second shield delay at max skills, where a proto variant offers a 1.60 second shield delay only possible through multiple low slots that the standard variant doesnt have. did this make sense? Pretty much this. Progression is already jacked up in a handful of roles that don't even become useful until Prototype - take a look at the Scouts and their cloak usage, for instance.
we could do the same thing to all the vehicles too even
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9832
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Posted - 2015.05.14 14:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
If we eliminate the suits to one per role per race, you can simply up the costs of other gear appropriately and get fittings roughly equal in price as they are now. Considering the major thing holding most players back from running maxed suits all the time is ISK, have you seen how expensive APEX fits can be? I dint think there's even a need to mess with CPU and PG, just give everyone all the slots and CPU PG from the start and up all the other prices
Amarr are the good guys
Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
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nelo kazuma
THE LAST H0PE.
RUST415
174
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Posted - 2015.05.14 15:10:00 -
[31] - Quote
You forgot to factor in the mins stamina recovery. That and its movement and running speed are major factors when even considering any changes. Amar should be slower since armor plating is a higher resistant hp I agree their. which is why they get more stamina to suit to make up for that.
In my opinion no suit should have any kinda of movement speed bonus so until that is taken from minmattars they should not see an increase in speed whatsoever to sprint. Gal and cal should be equal so according to your numbers your are correct there. |
Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9832
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Posted - 2015.05.14 15:35:00 -
[32] - Quote
nelo kazuma wrote:You forgot to factor in the mins stamina recovery. That and its movement and running speed are major factors when even considering any changes. Amar should be slower since armor plating is a higher resistant hp I agree their. which is why they get more stamina to suit to make up for that.
In my opinion no suit should have any kinda of movement speed bonus so until that is taken from minmattars they should not see an increase in speed whatsoever to sprint. Gal and cal should be equal so according to your numbers your are correct there.
I'm suggesting lowering Minmatar speed, there better stamina stats only increase the imbalance. Amarr getting more stamina is of no counter benefit as the other suits still go much farther and quicker in one full stamina sprint than Amarr. Again, the 30 extra hp isn't worth the high percentage movement speed penalty that losing 0.20 m/s creates.
Amarr are the good guys
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Avallo Kantor
638
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 16:07:00 -
[33] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:
Well I'll ask a couple questions. What's the benefit in having the same slot layout across all tiers vs only having one dropsuit with one slot layout?
Does a standard suit count as a separate suit vs an advance or prototype suit? Meaning are three unique caldari assault suits each with different slot layouts and they all go into memory and get loaded when needed or is there one unique caldari assault suit that gets loaded with different settings?
I'm asking this because depending on your answer, wouldn't tiercide provide a performance boost and free up resources?
No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity.
I know quite a few other people are throwing out suggestions, but if I may throw an idea into the ring:
Why not just have a 'powercore' module that is of basic / adv / proto levels?
Basically you have one suit: at militia values of CPU / PG, then each powercore (costing the difference between a militia suit and the target level suit) just gives a flat + PG / + CPU equal to the difference between the tiers?
This way, with one module, you can have the existing progression system as is, but reduce each racial suit / type down to one model?
[Edit:] In case it wasn't clear the powercore module would be a unique slot, much like the SKIN slot. |
Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9837
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 16:30:00 -
[34] - Quote
Avallo Kantor wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:
Well I'll ask a couple questions. What's the benefit in having the same slot layout across all tiers vs only having one dropsuit with one slot layout?
Does a standard suit count as a separate suit vs an advance or prototype suit? Meaning are three unique caldari assault suits each with different slot layouts and they all go into memory and get loaded when needed or is there one unique caldari assault suit that gets loaded with different settings?
I'm asking this because depending on your answer, wouldn't tiercide provide a performance boost and free up resources?
No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity. I know quite a few other people are throwing out suggestions, but if I may throw an idea into the ring: Why not just have a 'powercore' module that is of basic / adv / proto levels? Basically you have one suit: at militia values of CPU / PG, then each powercore (costing the difference between a militia suit and the target level suit) just gives a flat + PG / + CPU equal to the difference between the tiers? This way, with one module, you can have the existing progression system as is, but reduce each racial suit / type down to one model? [Edit:] In case it wasn't clear the powercore module would be a unique slot, much like the SKIN slot. this is pretty clever
Amarr are the good guys
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Black Eagle495
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 16:57:00 -
[35] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity.
Why not fold the PG/CPU capacity into the dropsuit skills rather than tiering the suits? IE divide the difference between STD and PRO by 5 and add that amount at each amarr assault or min sentinel or whatever. Accomplishes the same thing without having to keep the additional database clutter or price tiering i like the way youre keeping it simple. honestly just adding one extra skill to each category would do it. shield and armor optimization skills would reduce fitting cost by 5% per level as an example yes?
I like the ideas mentioned above because this would remove 64 suits from the game (performance boost?) which would give room for cooler things than adv. or pro. This could help with that post level 5 content Rattati is always talking about. for example we could have Pirate/corporation dropsuits (ishokune Cal Ass. Boundless Min Ass. ect.) that could be regular role suit with thier resources rearranged (same number of slots, total hp, speed to hp ratio, pg to cpu ratio ect) kinda like we have with weapons. Everything gained would come at a loss of something else.
Like the boundless Min assualt could sacrifice good chunk of armor and innate dropsuit armor reps for higher shield recharge rates/delays with more high slot and less low slots (just an example not idea). |
Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9839
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 16:59:00 -
[36] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Another thing that can be done, or two actually, are faction fitting bonuses, i really like them because they can be seen like a mini wow set bonus, and more efficacy bonuses.
This is also all in relation to our work on an improved progression design.
What if SKINs referenced your skill level in that suits role skill applied an mini bonus like that? This way you could add extra value to the SKINs while also opening up more interesting avenues such as pirate themed bonuses.
Blood Raider skins could provide bonuses in reducing recharge time on equipment and mods within a set range (neutralize recharge of cloaks, scanners, vehicle active mods). Perhaps use scan range for set ranges and degrees.
Guristas skins could provide shield resistance bonuses
Serpentis skins could reduce enemies movement speed. Again, perhaps use scan range for set ranges and degrees.
Amarr are the good guys
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IAmDuncanIdaho II
Nos Nothi
2350
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 17:00:00 -
[37] - Quote
Disclosure: my favourite fitting is Min Scout with knives, and I speed tank it whenever I can.
I do not like the idea of reducing the MinScout's speed. It's one of its advantages for closing the distance before its prey notices via EWAR inner ring. That and simply going fast.
I think you may kill the Minja with these suggestions.
On a broader note, why make changes that make suits less diverse? I would much prefer to see a wider range of speeds per class-role, so maybe your discounted idea of not changing HP should be revisited?
I wouldn't like to see less diversity because of a theoretical (and perhaps it would too be borne out in discussions) resistance to making changes one way over another. Doesn't the longer-term application of this logic bring us to every suit being almost the same? Let's not do that. |
Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9840
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 17:10:00 -
[38] - Quote
IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:Disclosure: my favourite fitting is Min Scout with knives, and I speed tank it whenever I can.
I do not like the idea of reducing the MinScout's speed. It's one of its advantages for closing the distance before its prey notices via EWAR inner ring. That and simply going fast.
I think you may kill the Minja with these suggestions.
On a broader note, why make changes that make suits less diverse? I would much prefer to see a wider range of speeds per class-role, so maybe your discounted idea of not changing HP should be revisited?
I wouldn't like to see less diversity because of a theoretical (and perhaps it would too be borne out in discussions) resistance to making changes one way over another. Doesn't the longer-term application of this logic bring us to every suit being almost the same? Let's not do that.
Would you be ok with giving Amarr more HP and Minmatar less HP (even the min scout) in favor of retaining current speed values? Because currently the mix of speed and HP is not balanced as I detailed.
Amarr are the good guys
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1564
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 17:14:00 -
[39] - Quote
Avallo Kantor wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:
Well I'll ask a couple questions. What's the benefit in having the same slot layout across all tiers vs only having one dropsuit with one slot layout?
Does a standard suit count as a separate suit vs an advance or prototype suit? Meaning are three unique caldari assault suits each with different slot layouts and they all go into memory and get loaded when needed or is there one unique caldari assault suit that gets loaded with different settings?
I'm asking this because depending on your answer, wouldn't tiercide provide a performance boost and free up resources?
No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity. I know quite a few other people are throwing out suggestions, but if I may throw an idea into the ring: Why not just have a 'powercore' module that is of basic / adv / proto levels? Basically you have one suit: at militia values of CPU / PG, then each powercore (costing the difference between a militia suit and the target level suit) just gives a flat + PG / + CPU equal to the difference between the tiers? This way, with one module, you can have the existing progression system as is, but reduce each racial suit / type down to one model? [Edit:] In case it wasn't clear the powercore module would be a unique slot, much like the SKIN slot.
This is a good idea and maybe the simplest. I also like how with this it would be easy to change the suit power by just changing a module instead of as it is now you have to create an entirely new fitting and refit with all the same stuff sometimes.
Overlord of Broman
|
I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5599
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 17:17:00 -
[40] - Quote
It's a good idea as long as minmatar and amarr suits have large enough speed differences.
Overlaps are bad, but a 1% difference is tiny in comparison to the 3-5% we have currently.
I personally prefer diversity, even if it is more logical to use armor/speed ratios (i.e. letting the amarr logi keep the sidearm instead of giving it the same equipment layout as the gallente)
But yes, essentially CCP pulled these numbers out of their ass quickly, and these are some of the finer details we can start looking at now that a lot of other issues have been fixed.
One final thing to note is that Assault and Logi speeds may be swapped here within the next few months. Just something to consider.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1564
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 17:17:00 -
[41] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity.
three different suits to represent player progression yes? then there's another way of handling the pg/cpu. use the prototype suit slot layout, with an advance suit pg/cpu fitting (this is just an example for simplicity). then adding fittiing optimization skills for pretty much every module category. Shield extender optimization would decrease pg use of shield extenders, shield recharger optimaztion would decrease cpu use for examples. increasing these optimization skills would free up or make more efficient use of slots in terms of fitting resources. In other words, imagine the rail rifle optimization skill, when at level 5, reduced the fitting requirements of a proto rail rifle down to the advance version allowing you to fit on to the suit with ease. This does a bunch of things. 1. player progression is tied to skill investment 2. less dropsuits 3. dropsuits become more versatile through skill investment 4. Its alot easier to balance. instead of balancing 12 assault suits of varying power levels, you need only balance 4 suits. This is good because some suits at standard level are barely viable where the same suit at proto is much more effective because of its increased slot layout. for example, caldari assault at standard offers a 3 second shield delay at max skills, where a proto variant offers a 1.60 second shield delay only possible through multiple low slots that the standard variant doesnt have. did this make sense?
A good idea as well. This thread had some great ideas to pull from Rattati. Hopefully we see this in the future.
Overlord of Broman
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9840
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Posted - 2015.05.14 17:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:It's a good idea as long as minmatar and amarr suits have large enough speed differences.
Overlaps are bad, but a 1% difference is tiny in comparison to the 3-5% we have currently.
I personally prefer diversity, even if it is more logical to use armor/speed ratios (i.e. letting the amarr logi keep the sidearm instead of giving it the same equipment layout as the gallente)
But yes, essentially CCP pulled these numbers out of their ass quickly, and these are some of the finer details we can start looking at now that a lot of other issues have been fixed.
One final thing to note is that Assault and Logi speeds may be swapped here within the next few months. Just something to consider.
Again, if you want to keep these more drastic speed differences would you be ok with mute drastic hp differences opposed to +-30 HP?
I agree logis and assaults should probably switch speeds. Also the case with the Amarr logi wouldn't be so bad if we did flatten the slots such that it has more than two equipment at standard.
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
1186
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 18:19:00 -
[43] - Quote
I play Minmatar Scout. I would be OK with lowering base HP values to keep our current speed if Rattati feels that is what we need to do.
I also want to point out that Rattati's old model of making speed and HP inversely proportionate seems perfect to me. In such a system anything that increases health could potentially have an effect on speed. If it worked like that, the base stats wouldn't matter so much and the very concept of speed vs health becomes a player choice rather than a suit design.
Thoughts?
Know what cannot be known.
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IAmDuncanIdaho II
Nos Nothi
2350
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 18:21:00 -
[44] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:Disclosure: my favourite fitting is Min Scout with knives, and I speed tank it whenever I can.
I do not like the idea of reducing the MinScout's speed. It's one of its advantages for closing the distance before its prey notices via EWAR inner ring. That and simply going fast.
I think you may kill the Minja with these suggestions.
On a broader note, why make changes that make suits less diverse? I would much prefer to see a wider range of speeds per class-role, so maybe your discounted idea of not changing HP should be revisited?
I wouldn't like to see less diversity because of a theoretical (and perhaps it would too be borne out in discussions) resistance to making changes one way over another. Doesn't the longer-term application of this logic bring us to every suit being almost the same? Let's not do that. Would you be ok with giving Amarr more HP and Minmatar less HP (even the min scout) in favor of retaining current speed values? Because currently the mix of speed and HP is not balanced as I detailed.
Yes I would, I agree with fixing the progression, but I would like to see it done whilst retaining or even increasing diversity. It would be nice if speed-tanking was a little more viable, but I will take the hit to HP instead of speed gladly.
[edit]
Also what Kaeru above me said - this makes a lot of sense if it's an alternative. |
I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5601
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 18:27:00 -
[45] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:
Again, if you want to keep these more drastic speed differences would you be ok with mute drastic hp differences opposed to +-30 HP?
I agree logis and assaults should probably switch speeds. Also the case with the Amarr logi wouldn't be so bad if we did flatten the slots such that it has more than two equipment at standard.
I guess I'm just looking at the sentinel numbers and knowing that speed penalties on them don't really matter at all.
Like, stacking 3 complex plates as it is barely does anything to your sprint speed.
That, and the minmatar sentinel will lose it's efficiency as a rush-down sentinel if it is dropped that low. In other words, it would be drastically less efficient to run sprint mods on the minmatar, and there would be even less reasns to run the suit.
I like your logical reasoning with all of this, but sometimes even if the numbers are pretty, how it would pan out in-game might not be as expected.
For instance, someone told me the other day that normalizing the amarr logi to have a 3/5 slot layout would make it OP if it kept the sidearm. While on paper it looks like a great idea, that 5th low slot could turn the Amarr logi into the Cal Logi of Uprising...especially with the proposed movement speed swap between assaults and logistics.
__________________________________________________________________________________
I guess what I'm saying is that yes, the numbers should be normalized between different types of suits, but maybe consider using a different ratio. Does a Minmatar sentinel need to run as fast as an assault with one kin cat? No, but if these numbers came into effect, the Amarr heavy would then be better for speed tanking just because it has more low slots.
I can't say what this would do for assaults or scouts, but I imagine it would be a similar, if less drastic, case.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
|
Avallo Kantor
641
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 18:53:00 -
[46] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Another thing that can be done, or two actually, are faction fitting bonuses, i really like them because they can be seen like a mini wow set bonus, and more efficacy bonuses.
This is also all in relation to our work on an improved progression design. What if SKINs referenced your skill level in that suits role skill applied an mini bonus like that? This way you could add extra value to the SKINs while also opening up more interesting avenues such as pirate themed bonuses. Blood Raider skins could provide bonuses in reducing recharge time on equipment and mods within a set range (neutralize recharge of cloaks, scanners, vehicle active mods). Perhaps use scan range for set ranges and degrees. Guristas skins could provide shield resistance bonuses Serpentis skins could reduce enemies movement speed. Again, perhaps use scan range for set ranges and degrees.
I'm very much against this specific idea, personally speaking.
The moment a SKIN suit applies a bonus of any kind (no matter how small) then SKINs become part of the metagame, and I know of many players who would choose a skin based on bonus over look every time, no matter how small said bonus was. SKINs should, in my opinion, always be cosmetic and nothing else, especially with so many tied to AUR only purchases (even with player trading) it would give a certain stink to the whole of the SKIN system.
--
Trying to tie it into my suggestion from earlier though, couldn't the "powercore" idea be expanded (at a later date) to give other bonuses? That way you could have a "Guristas Assault Powercore" that could be fitted into a Dropsuit (Caldari / Gallente only?) that gives some bonus in addition to +PG / +CPU.
That said, that's just a 'wishful thinking' idea, and not something that would be in the core concept of the idea. |
IAmDuncanIdaho II
Nos Nothi
2350
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 19:22:00 -
[47] - Quote
The more I think about these normalisation ideas, the more I wonder if it's just to make the numbers symmetrical and it actually won't achieve better balance. I think I-Shayz-I may be talking about a similar thing.
Not really sure you can debit and credit base units of speed and HP in a linear fashion and say "there, that must be balanced because the figures are balanced".
So again, I would draw you to Kaeru's post.
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:
I also want to point out that Rattati's old model of making speed and HP inversely proportionate seems perfect to me. In such a system anything that increases health could potentially have an effect on speed. If it worked like that, the base stats wouldn't matter so much and the very concept of speed vs health becomes a player choice rather than a suit design.
|
Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9855
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 19:35:00 -
[48] - Quote
IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:The more I think about these normalisation ideas, the more I wonder if it's just to make the numbers symmetrical and it actually won't achieve better balance. I think I-Shayz-I may be talking about a similar thing. Not really sure you can debit and credit base units of speed and HP in a linear fashion and say "there, that must be balanced because the figures are balanced". So again, I would draw you to Kaeru's post. Kaeru Nayiri wrote:
I also want to point out that Rattati's old model of making speed and HP inversely proportionate seems perfect to me. In such a system anything that increases health could potentially have an effect on speed. If it worked like that, the base stats wouldn't matter so much and the very concept of speed vs health becomes a player choice rather than a suit design.
Though surely you can see how giving the Amarr sentinel +45 HP and -0.20 speed isn't the same as giving the Amarr scout +30 HP and -0.20 speed
Amarr are the good guys
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6267
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 20:31:00 -
[49] - Quote
Avallo Kantor wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:
Well I'll ask a couple questions. What's the benefit in having the same slot layout across all tiers vs only having one dropsuit with one slot layout?
Does a standard suit count as a separate suit vs an advance or prototype suit? Meaning are three unique caldari assault suits each with different slot layouts and they all go into memory and get loaded when needed or is there one unique caldari assault suit that gets loaded with different settings?
I'm asking this because depending on your answer, wouldn't tiercide provide a performance boost and free up resources?
No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity. I know quite a few other people are throwing out suggestions, but if I may throw an idea into the ring: Why not just have a 'powercore' module that is of basic / adv / proto levels? Basically you have one suit: at militia values of CPU / PG, then each powercore (costing the difference between a militia suit and the target level suit) just gives a flat + PG / + CPU equal to the difference between the tiers? This way, with one module, you can have the existing progression system as is, but reduce each racial suit / type down to one model? [Edit:] In case it wasn't clear the powercore module would be a unique slot, much like the SKIN slot.
That's actually quite clever. 1 suit per race/role, and then 3 ISK powercores, and then the 3 AUR powercores, and then the LP variants.
That way you only have 1 database entry with all of the dropsuit stats baked in, and then the powercore entries which only have the PG/CPU modifiers. Significantly fewer attributes to load.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
810
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 21:30:00 -
[50] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I think I have thread about this somewhere or, at least have expressed my will to amend this and make speeds/ehp more logical. Since I am already looking at flattened slot progression, this could be a double whammy.
Double Whammies are OK. Better to rip the bandaid off than pull half now and half later. If it means more sensible gameplay progression and a flatter curve for new players in understanding the game I wholeheartedly support it.
It can be tweaked later, but getting the primary change taken care of is usually better than waiting.
From previous balance discussions I know that paced changes provide better feedback for monitoring @ CCP. You need that data, I get that. So, if we must wait, we will. Excitement for change gets the better of me I'm afraid.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
810
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 21:45:00 -
[51] - Quote
I Agree Pokey, The power core Idea is quite an amazing idea. Rather ingenious I must say.
Well done Avallo Kantor.
@OP
Thank you for addressing this subject with attention to detail - the HP vs Speed thing has been on my mind for years and I've talked about the outliers but never went with your depth. So thank you.
And I agree to the HP/Speed concept. - the fine tuning that may need to come with heavy Low Slots or modules is minimal than having an outlined rule. I desire clear concepts and outlines that give the game a sense of definition when addressing culture classes and roles.
As with all tiercide or slot flattening discussions I must ask if anyone has any creative ideas as to the current BPOs, Starter Fits, outlier BPO's, and ultimately APEX and how we might address their value? (Skins are playing into this as well as CCP makes skins of all the original BPO's.) Seeing as an Apex suit was 2-3x the cost of other BPO's. How should it be handled respective to the initial price investments of players?
BPOs -> Skins
is what CCP is working on currently. I can see that, and see that the skins are now as expensive as those BPOs. And while I bought some BPO's for the skin many I bought simply for the function or the class.
APEX's are a different matter. Even thought they are Golden I don't believe players bought these for the paint job - a fact supported in many a discussion :) - They were purchased for their performance - and now the APEX is more valuable than ever because it can be edited... minimally, but it can still be edited.
Thus:
If Slot Flattening was enacted, and we maintained the STD/ADV/PRO slot progression and now all suits shared the same Slot layouts at the current proto level but with CPU/PG jumps at each level; would it be appropriate to see the APEX have an ADV level CPU/PG rating? It maintains value above other BPO/Skins.
Will we see CPU/PG adjustments with the Flattening (if it did happen)? Currently I can fit some of my STD BPO's better than my APEX fittings because of their greater CPU/PG. Just thinking....
I'm open to other ideas, - sorry not meaning to derail the thread, but if anyone had an ingenious idea like the Cores idea I would love to hear it or be pointed to another thread where it is discussed.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9864
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 22:07:00 -
[52] - Quote
While true tiericide would make APEX suits less appealing, they would still come with free prefit mods which is something.
Amarr are the good guys
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nelo kazuma
THE LAST H0PE.
RUST415
178
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 23:40:00 -
[53] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:nelo kazuma wrote:You forgot to factor in the mins stamina recovery. That and its movement and running speed are major factors when even considering any changes. Amar should be slower since armor plating is a higher resistant hp I agree their. which is why they get more stamina to suit to make up for that.
In my opinion no suit should have any kinda of movement speed bonus so until that is taken from minmattars they should not see an increase in speed whatsoever to sprint. Gal and cal should be equal so according to your numbers your are correct there. I'm suggesting lowering Minmatar speed, there better stamina stats only increase the imbalance. Amarr getting more stamina is of no counter benefit as the other suits still go much farther and quicker in one full stamina sprint than Amarr. Again, the 30 extra hp isn't worth the high percentage movement speed penalty that losing 0.20 m/s creates.
ohh misunderstood id rather see all suits total hp equalized and speed distributed based on shield vs armor shield characters being fastest armor being slowest. just sprint speed though movement speed should be equal amoungst all the suits unless armor platers are added cuz shield delay with extenders may not penalize speed but they do penalize regen.
Edit and when I say equalized I mean total hp of all assaults should be the same. Example cal have something like 500 shield 100 armor.
Amar polar opposite 100 shield 500 armor. Gal would have a little less armor than amar but more a lil more shield like 200 shield and 400 armor min having a lil less shield 400 but a bit more armor (200)
Obviously example off from actual numbers but my point still there. |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
811
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 01:40:00 -
[54] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:While true tiericide would make APEX suits less appealing, they would still come with free prefit mods which is something.
Prefit is nice...
I guess I'm just thinking that I already have all the BPO militia items, so I can make my low cost fits when I have enough PG/CPU. So what would make them have value? That may just be me, and that's ok. The game is not made just for me, though I am sure I'm not the only one that may be thinking the same thing.
hmmmmm.... no new ideas yet on my end.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
|
RedBleach LeSanglant
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
811
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 01:44:00 -
[55] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:I am open to all feedback and criticism, but please come with a response that is accompanied by reasoning and is not anecdotal.
I find it interesting that during your argument you kept logis as an outlier group rather than applying the guideline you were establishing of HP to Speed. Even though it has been noted that the Assault and Logi numbers may change in the future why did you keep to the status quo when you were analyzing the differences?
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
3112
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 01:47:00 -
[56] - Quote
Would it be possible to assign a suits role bonus to the powercore module? and allow it to enable/disable slots?
So in theory you only have light, medium and heavy frames but the powercore applies the role bonus (via referencing a check on player skill level), pg/cpu values and flavors/enables weapon loadouts - assuming tiericide here. Commandos might need their own frame still but that drops the huge number of suits in the game down to 16 or so.
It sounds like this set up might take some load off of the server as there'd no longer be a huge number of unique dropsuits just the same suits running different skins/powercores.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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IAmDuncanIdaho II
Nos Nothi
2353
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Posted - 2015.05.15 07:36:00 -
[57] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:The more I think about these normalisation ideas, the more I wonder if it's just to make the numbers symmetrical and it actually won't achieve better balance. I think I-Shayz-I may be talking about a similar thing. Not really sure you can debit and credit base units of speed and HP in a linear fashion and say "there, that must be balanced because the figures are balanced". So again, I would draw you to Kaeru's post. Kaeru Nayiri wrote:
I also want to point out that Rattati's old model of making speed and HP inversely proportionate seems perfect to me. In such a system anything that increases health could potentially have an effect on speed. If it worked like that, the base stats wouldn't matter so much and the very concept of speed vs health becomes a player choice rather than a suit design.
Though surely you can see how giving the Amarr sentinel +45 HP and -0.20 speed isn't the same as giving the Amarr scout +30 HP and -0.20 speed
Not sure I follow, either I didn't explain what I meant well enough or I've not read / understood an earlier post. Obviously your HP adjustments in your example there are different....
Not sure if saying this will help here...put it this way - I don't think speed-tanking works, at least not as well as it should. So if you must take away a unit of HP for every unit of speed you add, to keep balance, then the increased speed must increase survivability by the same amount of HP that you took away.
I do not think this plays out on the field like this. Whilst the numbers themselves will balance perfectly and be symmetrical, the gameplay may not reflect this.
I hope that made sense.
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All Gucci
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
240
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Posted - 2015.05.15 13:10:00 -
[58] - Quote
I said all this a while ago but everyone thought I was crazy  lol thnx Aero Yassavi for bringing this to their attention....
Director / Slayer / Emperor
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Boot Booter
Titans of Phoenix
RUST415
1333
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Posted - 2015.05.15 15:37:00 -
[59] - Quote
Avallo Kantor wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:
Well I'll ask a couple questions. What's the benefit in having the same slot layout across all tiers vs only having one dropsuit with one slot layout?
Does a standard suit count as a separate suit vs an advance or prototype suit? Meaning are three unique caldari assault suits each with different slot layouts and they all go into memory and get loaded when needed or is there one unique caldari assault suit that gets loaded with different settings?
I'm asking this because depending on your answer, wouldn't tiercide provide a performance boost and free up resources?
No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity. I know quite a few other people are throwing out suggestions, but if I may throw an idea into the ring: Why not just have a 'powercore' module that is of basic / adv / proto levels? Basically you have one suit: at militia values of CPU / PG, then each powercore (costing the difference between a militia suit and the target level suit) just gives a flat + PG / + CPU equal to the difference between the tiers? This way, with one module, you can have the existing progression system as is, but reduce each racial suit / type down to one model? [Edit:] In case it wasn't clear the powercore module would be a unique slot, much like the SKIN slot.
Has anyone passed this idea onto the rat? Itd be a easy way of freeing up space and would allow for many more tiers than just three.
+100
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TheD1CK
Dead Man's Game
2056
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 15:56:00 -
[60] - Quote
All Gucci wrote:I said all this a while ago but everyone thought I was crazy lol thnx Aero Yassavi for bringing this to their attention....
This has been brought up many times, it's a tough one to call to be honest..
As Shayz points out, Yes the numbers look good, but how will it play out in game???
Currently The Amarr Sentinel can rival others for speed if fitted for speed tank (while maintaining decent hp)
If you take a Min and Amarr Assault (no plates or biotics) and run from spawn to city it's damn near even..
The speed and stamnina values are different, but un-modded BOTH beat Cal/Gal suits already
So I agree the numbers are off - But maybe seeing as it does balance out in play.... maybe they were meant to be???
Interesting stuff, I'm not against changes.. but the thoughts of an Ak.0 Assault catching me any faster *shudders*
Te Sbundo'd
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DJINN Jecture
Templar of the Glowing Blade
368
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Posted - 2015.05.15 17:45:00 -
[61] - Quote
The power core module is an interesting idea. I can't help but wonder what we spent the last 4 years balancing though if it all comes out to one suit with power cores to swap around.
The only word of caution I have is this:
- this is a great deal of extra work for ccp, not only adding a new slot to all suits, but removing and compensating for the other suits etc
- this affects everyone, all suits, all fits
- I have mentioned in the past that this game always seems like it is still in beta right? Everytime I hack a CRU I am waiting for the explosions from the RE detonating the CRU and killing the surrounding 20 ish player (spawning and dead still waiting to spawn).
- So like Incarna right?
-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!
ߦäߦâ-à
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Booby Tuesdays
Minmatar Republic
1611
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Posted - 2015.05.15 18:00:00 -
[62] - Quote
I think your blind faith and love for the empress has caused you to leave out some other good data.
Scouts
Amarr get 15% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 3.67% speed reduction versus Gal and Cal.
Amarr get 35% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 7.5% speed reduction versus Minmatar.
Assaults
Amarr get 7% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 4% speed reduction versus Gal and Cal.
Amarr get 15% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 10% speed reduction versus Minmatar.
Logis
Amarr get 11.5% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 3.19% speed reduction versus Gal and Cal.
Amarr get 25% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 10% speed reduction from Minmatar.
Commandos
Amarr get 4.6% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 4.94% speed reduction versus Gal and Cal.
Amarr get 9.7% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 10.5% speed reduction versus Minmatar.
Sentinels
Amarr get 5% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 5.19% speed reduction versus Gal and Cal.
Amarr get 10.5% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for an 11% speed reduction versus Minmatar.
I understand that your initial numbers work on paper, but I don't think they would play out in game.
Is 1 HP% of the same value as 1% movement speed? If so, then the Commandos and Heavies are the most balanced suits. Nerfing the speeds of suits that already have a distinct HP disadvantage is a terrible idea. The Min Logi is already the lowest KDR suit in the game, has less HP than the Amarr scout, and you want to make it slower?
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9997
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Posted - 2015.05.15 18:09:00 -
[63] - Quote
Percentage base HP is irrelevant in an FPS, it's all about total additional HP value.
Amarr are the good guys
Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
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Booby Tuesdays
Minmatar Republic
1611
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Posted - 2015.05.15 18:23:00 -
[64] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Percentage base HP is irrelevant in an FPS, it's all about total additional HP value.
Then why do the Armor and Shield skills add percentages instead of a flat additional value? |
Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9998
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 18:45:00 -
[65] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:Percentage base HP is irrelevant in an FPS, it's all about total additional HP value. Then why do the Armor and Shield skills add percentages instead of a flat additional value?
Good point, but all modules for HP are value based, most importantly the ones that relate to speed. It's all about how many more bullets you can afford to take due to being slower.
Amarr are the good guys
Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
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Booby Tuesdays
Minmatar Republic
1611
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Posted - 2015.05.15 19:09:00 -
[66] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:Percentage base HP is irrelevant in an FPS, it's all about total additional HP value. Then why do the Armor and Shield skills add percentages instead of a flat additional value? Good point, but all modules for HP are value based, most importantly the ones that relate to speed. It's all about how many more bullets you can afford to take due to being slower.
As opposed to how many fewer bullets you can take, due to being faster? I can tell you flat out that the only reason my Logi suit has made it around a corner in time is due to having stacked more HP than usual, not because I was quick enough to get around said corner. My speed Logi fits always die before I can get to cover, due to its Scout level HP. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
857
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 12:14:00 -
[67] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Percentage base HP is irrelevant in an FPS, it's all about total additional HP value.
I am certain this is not true.
For example, a shield extender has much more value on a scout than a sentinel, as the sentinel will take much more damage overall. The extender is therefore much more likely to save the life of the scout than the sentinel. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8834
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 15:08:00 -
[68] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:Percentage base HP is irrelevant in an FPS, it's all about total additional HP value. I am certain this is not true. For example, a shield extender has much more value on a scout than a sentinel, as the sentinel will take much more damage overall. The extender is therefore much more likely to save the life of the scout than the sentinel.
Percentage based shield extenders would only give scouts around 25 extra HP at 25% base value while giving a sentinel over 100. That's less than half a scrambler shot. Closer to 1/4th of a max skill scrambler hit (uncharged).
A better solution for scaling defenses would be modules that were intended for different suit sizes.
Percentage based tank mods invariably leave logis and scouts even more squishy than they already are.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
858
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Posted - 2015.05.16 16:03:00 -
[69] - Quote
I'm not suggesting making hp modules % based. I was just pointing out that, when modifying hp, the percent by which you change it is important, as different classes have varying methods of mitigating damage, meaning a set value of hp is worth different amounts of survivability to different suits.
It's not quite as simple as % hp = worth of hp, as scouts (for example) are expected to accomplish more without taking dangerous amounts of damage compared to sentinels. Hp arguable has more use to a sentinel than a scout.
In reality, all classes take threatening amounts of damage and are expected to survive, so hp is always important. Doubling your hp as a scout, is therefore much better than increasing your hp by 20% as a sentinel.
On the subject of % based hp modules, I think they should have been % based from the start, but it is much too late to change it to be this way now. It would require a complete rewrite of suit base hp across classes, as well as changes to hp module downsides, regen issues, fitting, balancing. Probably best not to go there at this stage. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8836
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 16:05:00 -
[70] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:I'm not suggesting making hp modules % based. I was just pointing out that, when modifying hp, the percent by which you change it is important, as different classes have varying methods of mitigating damage, meaning a set value of hp is worth different amounts of survivability to different suits.
It's not quite as simple as % hp = worth of hp, as scouts (for example) are expected to accomplish more without taking dangerous amounts of damage compared to sentinels. Hp arguable has more use to a sentinel than a scout.
In reality, all classes take threatening amounts of damage and are expected to survive, so hp is always important. Doubling your hp as a scout, is therefore much better than increasing your hp by 20% as a sentinel.
On the subject of % based hp modules, I think they should have been % based from the start, but it is much too late to change it to be this way now. It would require a complete rewrite of suit base hp across classes, as well as changes to hp module downsides, regen issues, fitting, balancing. Probably best not to go there at this stage.
I was expanding on your point, not correcting it.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
858
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Posted - 2015.05.16 16:11:00 -
[71] - Quote
I see. I thought you had misinterpreted what I said.
I guess what I'm really getting at, is that when comparing the speed and hp increases and sacrifices Minmatar and Amarr suits make, we should be comparing the percentage differences rather than the straight numbers. Contrary to what Aero stated, but inline with what Booby was saying. |
Vesperz
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
213
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Posted - 2015.05.16 17:16:00 -
[72] - Quote
I feel like this would kill the minmatar scout suit, the only thing they have going for them are speed and knives, no ewar what so ever. Not to mention they already have the lowest hit points of all the scouts anyway. This may look viable on paper but when applied to gameplay is a different story.
"Live by honor, kill by stealth."
Gal Scout since 1.0, Min Scout since 1.1
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
11086
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Posted - 2015.05.17 03:52:00 -
[73] - Quote
I like this plan that Aero has put in place, but I think its missing the heart of the matter.
Minmatar suits typically have slightly less HP than Amarr, but primarily Speed tank or dual tank the suit. Since Amarr can only armor tank, this makes them faster overall when compared to the amarr.
Now, the Amarr could DEFINITELY use a speed boost. They feel slow and clunky, the Amarr Scout and Assault in particular. These suits definitely need a boost in speed. Normalizing speed across the suits also is a great fix.
However, you will find that Minmatar suits will STILL be faster overall. Why?
Stamina Regen. Stamina regen is AMAZING on all Min suits, letting them use their high speed to the utmost advantage, able to sprint without reservation due to regen speed. This is something that I believe is the CORE of the Minmatar suit, rapid mobility.
Now, compare to the Amarr. They have higher than average stamina tanks, but they really can't use it because of their low speed. Using a stamina mod really makes it shine, but it really hurts their tank.
Hence why I have a slightly different idea.
Try this idea:
1.) Normalize speed/health like you have.
2.) WIDEN the gap. Give the Amarr more health and less speed, the Minmatar more speed and less health.
3.) NERF Minmatar stamina pool. Gal/Cal are baseline, normalize stamina. Widen gap, make minmatar have less overall stamina, resulting in short bursts of speed or jumps. To make up, they have higher than average regen.
4.) BUFF Amarr stamina pool. Once again, like above. They would have significantly more tank, but lower regen.
WHY DO I SAY THIS?
In all honesty, my biggest fear with your changes Aero is the fact that HP >> Speed. Normalizing with such a small gap seems like it would kill off the Minmatar suits, as the difference in speed wouldn't be worth the HP tradeoff.
By offering extremes, It will help preserve the feel of the suit on both sides, with Amarr feeling tanky and powerful, and the Minmatar feeling fragile and mobile. Since we still normalized the progression, the HP/Speed tradeoff would still be addressed, although there would still be overlap between the suits. The Min Assault would still be faster than the Amarr Scout, but the HP tradeoff would be more significant.
Ideally (to me), a full fit Amarr scout should be slightly less tanky than a Min Assault, but with better regen. Speed disparity is addressed via stamina system. Min Assault might regen fast, but an Amarr scout would still have scout levels of regen, combined with a higher overall tank of stamina. This results in the Amarr scout having a better stamina system to support its slightly lower speed.
Now, I haven't done any math, but I'll try to type something up later this week.
TL;DR
Normalize speed/hp differences, but then widen the gap to maintain sizable racial differences. Do the same to stamina pool and regen.
Ideally, the HP and Speed tradeoff will make up for the enroaching of roles. Min Assault would be faster than a Amarr Scout, but the Amarr would be better damped, only a bit less tanky, and have a better stamina system due to light frame stamina class.
Should address role speed/hp disparity while maintaining racial feels.
Currently listening to: Max Anarchy OST
Old School Scout, watch out for the knives
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five times
Liverpool F.C.
136
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Posted - 2015.05.17 04:12:00 -
[74] - Quote
Leave the base speed and ehp as it is, the diversity is good, we don't need formulaic correlation between the races.
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this would plain ruin the sentinels, I have specced in all 4 sentinels and bought the quafe sentinel bundle because of the speed differences, and I am sure it's the same for others. |
jace silencerww
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
167
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Posted - 2015.05.18 18:36:00 -
[75] - Quote
if you take the Minnie scout what speed it has now then you will kill it. why you ask. it is simple.
Minnie has a 0.01 speed over the gall scout as of right now. top sprint speed Minnie with 11.12 & gall is 11.11.
here read this top scouts in order. fyi I have all 4 scouts proto.
first is Gall- great cpu/pg, bonuses give it great ewar (2%precision & 3% damping per level) plus armor tanking and their natural armor regen. the best all around scout- can ewar & have enough low slots to do 1 or a mix of the following armor, speed or stealth hacking. (best fit I found at the bottom)
Con- is when you are using for all speed tanking but you have a 15% damping-from gal scout bonus, plus 10%-cloaks and 10%-core dropsuit profile damping so your profile is 21.42db so beside that they can pretty much do it all at once with little to give up.
second is Cald- good cpu/pg, bonuses help with low slots ewar (3% damping & 10% passive scan range per level). very balanced as far as ewar, ehp tanking and speed. you have to give something up to ewar, shield and/or armor tank.
Cons- the hit box detection needs fixing.
third is Amarr)- good cpu/pg. though just barelt in third if the cald scouts hit box was fixed then the 2 suits are so very close it would be very hard to pick second place. bonuses helps with the lack of high slots for ewar. (5% precision, stamina regen & max stamina per level) a strong defense or assault scout who can pick up most other scouts who are trying to sneak attack or stealth defend a point. they stamina makes up for the slight slower speed by sprinting longer and jumping around with armor tanking to defend a point. a good balanced fighter scout you have to give something up to stealth ewar, speed or tank.
con is a slight buff better base stats of shield and armor maybe 10-15 ehp higher on both stats.
last is Minnie. fair at best cpu/pg, bonuses are good if you knowhow to use them. (5% to hacking speed & nova damage) poorly balanced (looks good on paper) good for quick hacking even better with a complex codebreaker. the fastest of the scouts with 11.12 (barely by 0.01, gall scout top sprint is 11.11) fast stamina regen helps to sprinting in hacking or nova knife.
Cons is you must choose what you want to do due to not real balance like the other scouts. BUT again on paper it looks good. hacking fast use codebreakers but give up your damping, armor and speed. choose damping but give up speed, armor, and codebreakers. plus you can not shield tank and use speed mods not enough pg even on proto. so want to ewar to see and hide from the gal or amarr scout great but having low ehp (125 shield & 87 armor) and speed(8.3) . shield it up some and you can not see others scouts. speed tank and some shield you can not hide from other scouts. this is a truly hard scout to run.
gall scout fit/ high slots- 2 complex precisions / low slots- 2 complex dampers then 1-2 complex reactive plates or 0-2 complex kin cats. / equipment-proto cloak / weapons and other eq is up to you. when cloak no one can scan you but can be picked up in short range by some suits. though short range is within 10 meters or less. |
jace silencerww
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
168
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Posted - 2015.05.21 14:52:00 -
[76] - Quote
now my question to CCP Rattati if you are going to mess with the Minnie scout? |
All Gucci
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
245
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Posted - 2015.05.22 02:42:00 -
[77] - Quote
instead of touching min stamina regen, buff the regen on the other races, and either cut some health or speed off of the min or add some to the amarr.
Director / Slayer / Emperor
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VALCORE72
Vengeance Unbound
RUST415
324
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Posted - 2015.05.22 11:15:00 -
[78] - Quote
ratta we need a efficiency bonuses for usen our racial weapons. main weapon . sidearms on the right suits . |
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