You forgot to factor in the mins stamina recovery. That and its movement and running speed are major factors when even considering any changes. Amar should be slower since armor plating is a higher resistant hp I agree their. which is why they get more stamina to suit to make up for that.

In my opinion no suit should have any kinda of movement speed bonus so until that is taken from minmattars they should not see an increase in speed whatsoever to sprint. Gal and cal should be equal so according to your numbers your are correct there.

No, as they still need to exist as 3 different entities, due to different PG/CPU capacity.

I know quite a few other people are throwing out suggestions, but if I may throw an idea into the ring:

Why not just have a 'powercore' module that is of basic / adv / proto levels?

Basically you have one suit: at militia values of CPU / PG, then each powercore (costing the difference between a militia suit and the target level suit) just gives a flat + PG / + CPU equal to the difference between the tiers?

This way, with one module, you can have the existing progression system as is, but reduce each racial suit / type down to one model?

[Edit:] In case it wasn't clear the powercore module would be a unique slot, much like the SKIN slot.

i like the way youre keeping it simple.

honestly just adding one extra skill to each category would do it. shield and armor optimization skills would reduce fitting cost by 5% per level as an example yes?

Another thing that can be done, or two actually, are faction fitting bonuses, i really like them because they can be seen like a mini wow set bonus, and more efficacy bonuses.

This is also all in relation to our work on an improved progression design.

Disclosure: my favourite fitting is Min Scout with knives, and I speed tank it whenever I can.

I do not like the idea of reducing the MinScout's speed. It's one of its advantages for closing the distance before its prey notices via EWAR inner ring. That and simply going fast.

I think you may kill the Minja with these suggestions.

On a broader note, why make changes that make suits less diverse? I would much prefer to see a wider range of speeds per class-role, so maybe your discounted idea of not changing HP should be revisited?

I wouldn't like to see less diversity because of a theoretical (and perhaps it would too be borne out in discussions) resistance to making changes one way over another. Doesn't the longer-term application of this logic bring us to every suit being almost the same? Let's not do that.

I know quite a few other people are throwing out suggestions, but if I may throw an idea into the ring:

Why not just have a 'powercore' module that is of basic / adv / proto levels?

Basically you have one suit: at militia values of CPU / PG, then each powercore (costing the difference between a militia suit and the target level suit) just gives a flat + PG / + CPU equal to the difference between the tiers?

This way, with one module, you can have the existing progression system as is, but reduce each racial suit / type down to one model?

[Edit:] In case it wasn't clear the powercore module would be a unique slot, much like the SKIN slot.

three different suits to represent player progression yes? then there's another way of handling the pg/cpu.

use the prototype suit slot layout, with an advance suit pg/cpu fitting (this is just an example for simplicity). then adding fittiing optimization skills for pretty much every module category. Shield extender optimization would decrease pg use of shield extenders, shield recharger optimaztion would decrease cpu use for examples. increasing these optimization skills would free up or make more efficient use of slots in terms of fitting resources.

In other words, imagine the rail rifle optimization skill, when at level 5, reduced the fitting requirements of a proto rail rifle down to the advance version allowing you to fit on to the suit with ease.


This does a bunch of things.

1. player progression is tied to skill investment

2. less dropsuits

3. dropsuits become more versatile through skill investment

4. Its alot easier to balance. instead of balancing 12 assault suits of varying power levels, you need only balance 4 suits. This is good because some suits at standard level are barely viable where the same suit at proto is much more effective because of its increased slot layout. for example, caldari assault at standard offers a 3 second shield delay at max skills, where a proto variant offers a 1.60 second shield delay only possible through multiple low slots that the standard variant doesnt have.

did this make sense?

It's a good idea as long as minmatar and amarr suits have large enough speed differences.

Overlaps are bad, but a 1% difference is tiny in comparison to the 3-5% we have currently.

I personally prefer diversity, even if it is more logical to use armor/speed ratios (i.e. letting the amarr logi keep the sidearm instead of giving it the same equipment layout as the gallente)

But yes, essentially CCP pulled these numbers out of their ass quickly, and these are some of the finer details we can start looking at now that a lot of other issues have been fixed.

One final thing to note is that Assault and Logi speeds may be swapped here within the next few months. Just something to consider.

Would you be ok with giving Amarr more HP and Minmatar less HP (even the min scout) in favor of retaining current speed values? Because currently the mix of speed and HP is not balanced as I detailed.

Again, if you want to keep these more drastic speed differences would you be ok with mute drastic hp differences opposed to +-30 HP?

I agree logis and assaults should probably switch speeds. Also the case with the Amarr logi wouldn't be so bad if we did flatten the slots such that it has more than two equipment at standard.

What if SKINs referenced your skill level in that suits role skill applied an mini bonus like that? This way you could add extra value to the SKINs while also opening up more interesting avenues such as pirate themed bonuses.

Blood Raider skins could provide bonuses in reducing recharge time on equipment and mods within a set range (neutralize recharge of cloaks, scanners, vehicle active mods). Perhaps use scan range for set ranges and degrees.

Guristas skins could provide shield resistance bonuses

Serpentis skins could reduce enemies movement speed. Again, perhaps use scan range for set ranges and degrees.

I also want to point out that Rattati's old model of making speed and HP inversely proportionate seems perfect to me. In such a system anything that increases health could potentially have an effect on speed. If it worked like that, the base stats wouldn't matter so much and the very concept of speed vs health becomes a player choice rather than a suit design.

The more I think about these normalisation ideas, the more I wonder if it's just to make the numbers symmetrical and it actually won't achieve better balance. I think I-Shayz-I may be talking about a similar thing.

Not really sure you can debit and credit base units of speed and HP in a linear fashion and say "there, that must be balanced because the figures are balanced".

So again, I would draw you to Kaeru's post.

I know quite a few other people are throwing out suggestions, but if I may throw an idea into the ring:

Why not just have a 'powercore' module that is of basic / adv / proto levels?

Basically you have one suit: at militia values of CPU / PG, then each powercore (costing the difference between a militia suit and the target level suit) just gives a flat + PG / + CPU equal to the difference between the tiers?

This way, with one module, you can have the existing progression system as is, but reduce each racial suit / type down to one model?

[Edit:] In case it wasn't clear the powercore module would be a unique slot, much like the SKIN slot.

I think I have thread about this somewhere or, at least have expressed my will to amend this and make speeds/ehp more logical. Since I am already looking at flattened slot progression, this could be a double whammy.

I'm suggesting lowering Minmatar speed, there better stamina stats only increase the imbalance. Amarr getting more stamina is of no counter benefit as the other suits still go much farther and quicker in one full stamina sprint than Amarr. Again, the 30 extra hp isn't worth the high percentage movement speed penalty that losing 0.20 m/s creates.

While true tiericide would make APEX suits less appealing, they would still come with free prefit mods which is something.

I am open to all feedback and criticism, but please come with a response that is accompanied by reasoning and is not anecdotal.

Though surely you can see how giving the Amarr sentinel +45 HP and -0.20 speed isn't the same as giving the Amarr scout +30 HP and -0.20 speed

I know quite a few other people are throwing out suggestions, but if I may throw an idea into the ring:

Why not just have a 'powercore' module that is of basic / adv / proto levels?

Basically you have one suit: at militia values of CPU / PG, then each powercore (costing the difference between a militia suit and the target level suit) just gives a flat + PG / + CPU equal to the difference between the tiers?

This way, with one module, you can have the existing progression system as is, but reduce each racial suit / type down to one model?

[Edit:] In case it wasn't clear the powercore module would be a unique slot, much like the SKIN slot.

I said all this a while ago but everyone thought I was crazy lol thnx Aero Yassavi for bringing this to their attention....