DUST Search - Correcting Mistakes of Old CCP: Base HP versus Movement Speed

Varoth Drac wrote:

I'm not suggesting making hp modules % based. I was just pointing out that, when modifying hp, the percent by which you change it is important, as different classes have varying methods of mitigating damage, meaning a set value of hp is worth different amounts of survivability to different suits.

It's not quite as simple as % hp = worth of hp, as scouts (for example) are expected to accomplish more without taking dangerous amounts of damage compared to sentinels. Hp arguable has more use to a sentinel than a scout.

In reality, all classes take threatening amounts of damage and are expected to survive, so hp is always important. Doubling your hp as a scout, is therefore much better than increasing your hp by 20% as a sentinel.

On the subject of % based hp modules, I think they should have been % based from the start, but it is much too late to change it to be this way now. It would require a complete rewrite of suit base hp across classes, as well as changes to hp module downsides, regen issues, fitting, balancing. Probably best not to go there at this stage.

WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 368	Posted - 2015.05.15 17:45:00 - [61] - Quote The power core module is an interesting idea. I can't help but wonder what we spent the last 4 years balancing though if it all comes out to one suit with power cores to swap around. The only word of caution I have is this: this is a great deal of extra work for ccp, not only adding a new slot to all suits, but removing and compensating for the other suits etc this affects everyone, all suits, all fits I have mentioned in the past that this game always seems like it is still in beta right? Everytime I hack a CRU I am waiting for the explosions from the RE detonating the CRU and killing the surrounding 20 ish player (spawning and dead still waiting to spawn). So like Incarna right? *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
Booby Tuesdays Minmatar Republic 1611	Posted - 2015.05.15 18:00:00 - [62] - Quote I think your blind faith and love for the empress has caused you to leave out some other good data. Scouts Amarr get 15% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 3.67% speed reduction versus Gal and Cal. Amarr get 35% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 7.5% speed reduction versus Minmatar. Assaults Amarr get 7% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 4% speed reduction versus Gal and Cal. Amarr get 15% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 10% speed reduction versus Minmatar. Logis Amarr get 11.5% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 3.19% speed reduction versus Gal and Cal. Amarr get 25% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 10% speed reduction from Minmatar. Commandos Amarr get 4.6% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 4.94% speed reduction versus Gal and Cal. Amarr get 9.7% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 10.5% speed reduction versus Minmatar. Sentinels Amarr get 5% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for a 5.19% speed reduction versus Gal and Cal. Amarr get 10.5% more base HP, and crazy amounts of stamina, for an 11% speed reduction versus Minmatar. I understand that your initial numbers work on paper, but I don't think they would play out in game. Is 1 HP% of the same value as 1% movement speed? If so, then the Commandos and Heavies are the most balanced suits. Nerfing the speeds of suits that already have a distinct HP disadvantage is a terrible idea. The Min Logi is already the lowest KDR suit in the game, has less HP than the Amarr scout, and you want to make it slower?
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9997	Posted - 2015.05.15 18:09:00 - [63] - Quote Percentage base HP is irrelevant in an FPS, it's all about total additional HP value. Amarr are the good guys Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
Booby Tuesdays Minmatar Republic 1611	Posted - 2015.05.15 18:23:00 - [64] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Percentage base HP is irrelevant in an FPS, it's all about total additional HP value. Then why do the Armor and Shield skills add percentages instead of a flat additional value?
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9998	Posted - 2015.05.15 18:45:00 - [65] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Percentage base HP is irrelevant in an FPS, it's all about total additional HP value. Then why do the Armor and Shield skills add percentages instead of a flat additional value? Good point, but all modules for HP are value based, most importantly the ones that relate to speed. It's all about how many more bullets you can afford to take due to being slower. Amarr are the good guys Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
Booby Tuesdays Minmatar Republic 1611	Posted - 2015.05.15 19:09:00 - [66] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Percentage base HP is irrelevant in an FPS, it's all about total additional HP value. Then why do the Armor and Shield skills add percentages instead of a flat additional value? Good point, but all modules for HP are value based, most importantly the ones that relate to speed. It's all about how many more bullets you can afford to take due to being slower. As opposed to how many fewer bullets you can take, due to being faster? I can tell you flat out that the only reason my Logi suit has made it around a corner in time is due to having stacked more HP than usual, not because I was quick enough to get around said corner. My speed Logi fits always die before I can get to cover, due to its Scout level HP.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 857	Posted - 2015.05.16 12:14:00 - [67] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Percentage base HP is irrelevant in an FPS, it's all about total additional HP value. I am certain this is not true. For example, a shield extender has much more value on a scout than a sentinel, as the sentinel will take much more damage overall. The extender is therefore much more likely to save the life of the scout than the sentinel.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8834	Posted - 2015.05.16 15:08:00 - [68] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Percentage base HP is irrelevant in an FPS, it's all about total additional HP value. I am certain this is not true. For example, a shield extender has much more value on a scout than a sentinel, as the sentinel will take much more damage overall. The extender is therefore much more likely to save the life of the scout than the sentinel. Percentage based shield extenders would only give scouts around 25 extra HP at 25% base value while giving a sentinel over 100. That's less than half a scrambler shot. Closer to 1/4th of a max skill scrambler hit (uncharged). A better solution for scaling defenses would be modules that were intended for different suit sizes. Percentage based tank mods invariably leave logis and scouts even more squishy than they already are. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 858	Posted - 2015.05.16 16:03:00 - [69] - Quote I'm not suggesting making hp modules % based. I was just pointing out that, when modifying hp, the percent by which you change it is important, as different classes have varying methods of mitigating damage, meaning a set value of hp is worth different amounts of survivability to different suits. It's not quite as simple as % hp = worth of hp, as scouts (for example) are expected to accomplish more without taking dangerous amounts of damage compared to sentinels. Hp arguable has more use to a sentinel than a scout. In reality, all classes take threatening amounts of damage and are expected to survive, so hp is always important. Doubling your hp as a scout, is therefore much better than increasing your hp by 20% as a sentinel. On the subject of % based hp modules, I think they should have been % based from the start, but it is much too late to change it to be this way now. It would require a complete rewrite of suit base hp across classes, as well as changes to hp module downsides, regen issues, fitting, balancing. Probably best not to go there at this stage.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8836	Posted - 2015.05.16 16:05:00 - [70] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: I'm not suggesting making hp modules % based. I was just pointing out that, when modifying hp, the percent by which you change it is important, as different classes have varying methods of mitigating damage, meaning a set value of hp is worth different amounts of survivability to different suits. It's not quite as simple as % hp = worth of hp, as scouts (for example) are expected to accomplish more without taking dangerous amounts of damage compared to sentinels. Hp arguable has more use to a sentinel than a scout. In reality, all classes take threatening amounts of damage and are expected to survive, so hp is always important. Doubling your hp as a scout, is therefore much better than increasing your hp by 20% as a sentinel. On the subject of % based hp modules, I think they should have been % based from the start, but it is much too late to change it to be this way now. It would require a complete rewrite of suit base hp across classes, as well as changes to hp module downsides, regen issues, fitting, balancing. Probably best not to go there at this stage. I was expanding on your point, not correcting it. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 858	Posted - 2015.05.16 16:11:00 - [71] - Quote I see. I thought you had misinterpreted what I said. I guess what I'm really getting at, is that when comparing the speed and hp increases and sacrifices Minmatar and Amarr suits make, we should be comparing the percentage differences rather than the straight numbers. Contrary to what Aero stated, but inline with what Booby was saying.
Vesperz D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 213	Posted - 2015.05.16 17:16:00 - [72] - Quote I feel like this would kill the minmatar scout suit, the only thing they have going for them are speed and knives, no ewar what so ever. Not to mention they already have the lowest hit points of all the scouts anyway. This may look viable on paper but when applied to gameplay is a different story. "Live by honor, kill by stealth." Gal Scout since 1.0, Min Scout since 1.1
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11086	Posted - 2015.05.17 03:52:00 - [73] - Quote I like this plan that Aero has put in place, but I think its missing the heart of the matter. Minmatar suits typically have slightly less HP than Amarr, but primarily Speed tank or dual tank the suit. Since Amarr can only armor tank, this makes them faster overall when compared to the amarr. Now, the Amarr could DEFINITELY use a speed boost. They feel slow and clunky, the Amarr Scout and Assault in particular. These suits definitely need a boost in speed. Normalizing speed across the suits also is a great fix. However, you will find that Minmatar suits will STILL be faster overall. Why? Stamina Regen. Stamina regen is AMAZING on all Min suits, letting them use their high speed to the utmost advantage, able to sprint without reservation due to regen speed. This is something that I believe is the CORE of the Minmatar suit, rapid mobility. Now, compare to the Amarr. They have higher than average stamina tanks, but they really can't use it because of their low speed. Using a stamina mod really makes it shine, but it really hurts their tank. Hence why I have a slightly different idea. Try this idea: 1.) Normalize speed/health like you have. 2.) WIDEN the gap. Give the Amarr more health and less speed, the Minmatar more speed and less health. 3.) NERF Minmatar stamina pool. Gal/Cal are baseline, normalize stamina. Widen gap, make minmatar have less overall stamina, resulting in short bursts of speed or jumps. To make up, they have higher than average regen. 4.) BUFF Amarr stamina pool. Once again, like above. They would have significantly more tank, but lower regen. WHY DO I SAY THIS? In all honesty, my biggest fear with your changes Aero is the fact that HP >> Speed. Normalizing with such a small gap seems like it would kill off the Minmatar suits, as the difference in speed wouldn't be worth the HP tradeoff. By offering extremes, It will help preserve the feel of the suit on both sides, with Amarr feeling tanky and powerful, and the Minmatar feeling fragile and mobile. Since we still normalized the progression, the HP/Speed tradeoff would still be addressed, although there would still be overlap between the suits. The Min Assault would still be faster than the Amarr Scout, but the HP tradeoff would be more significant. Ideally (to me), a full fit Amarr scout should be slightly less tanky than a Min Assault, but with better regen. Speed disparity is addressed via stamina system. Min Assault might regen fast, but an Amarr scout would still have scout levels of regen, combined with a higher overall tank of stamina. This results in the Amarr scout having a better stamina system to support its slightly lower speed. Now, I haven't done any math, but I'll try to type something up later this week. TL;DR Normalize speed/hp differences, but then widen the gap to maintain sizable racial differences. Do the same to stamina pool and regen. Ideally, the HP and Speed tradeoff will make up for the enroaching of roles. Min Assault would be faster than a Amarr Scout, but the Amarr would be better damped, only a bit less tanky, and have a better stamina system due to light frame stamina class. Should address role speed/hp disparity while maintaining racial feels. Currently listening to: Max Anarchy OST Old School Scout, watch out for the knives
five times Liverpool F.C. 136	Posted - 2015.05.17 04:12:00 - [74] - Quote Leave the base speed and ehp as it is, the diversity is good, we don't need formulaic correlation between the races. . this would plain ruin the sentinels, I have specced in all 4 sentinels and bought the quafe sentinel bundle because of the speed differences, and I am sure it's the same for others.
jace silencerww D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 167	Posted - 2015.05.18 18:36:00 - [75] - Quote if you take the Minnie scout what speed it has now then you will kill it. why you ask. it is simple. Minnie has a 0.01 speed over the gall scout as of right now. top sprint speed Minnie with 11.12 & gall is 11.11. here read this top scouts in order. fyi I have all 4 scouts proto. first is Gall- great cpu/pg, bonuses give it great ewar (2%precision & 3% damping per level) plus armor tanking and their natural armor regen. the best all around scout- can ewar & have enough low slots to do 1 or a mix of the following armor, speed or stealth hacking. (best fit I found at the bottom) Con- is when you are using for all speed tanking but you have a 15% damping-from gal scout bonus, plus 10%-cloaks and 10%-core dropsuit profile damping so your profile is 21.42db so beside that they can pretty much do it all at once with little to give up. second is Cald- good cpu/pg, bonuses help with low slots ewar (3% damping & 10% passive scan range per level). very balanced as far as ewar, ehp tanking and speed. you have to give something up to ewar, shield and/or armor tank. Cons- the hit box detection needs fixing. third is Amarr)- good cpu/pg. though just barelt in third if the cald scouts hit box was fixed then the 2 suits are so very close it would be very hard to pick second place. bonuses helps with the lack of high slots for ewar. (5% precision, stamina regen & max stamina per level) a strong defense or assault scout who can pick up most other scouts who are trying to sneak attack or stealth defend a point. they stamina makes up for the slight slower speed by sprinting longer and jumping around with armor tanking to defend a point. a good balanced fighter scout you have to give something up to stealth ewar, speed or tank. con is a slight buff better base stats of shield and armor maybe 10-15 ehp higher on both stats. last is Minnie. fair at best cpu/pg, bonuses are good if you knowhow to use them. (5% to hacking speed & nova damage) poorly balanced (looks good on paper) good for quick hacking even better with a complex codebreaker. the fastest of the scouts with 11.12 (barely by 0.01, gall scout top sprint is 11.11) fast stamina regen helps to sprinting in hacking or nova knife. Cons is you must choose what you want to do due to not real balance like the other scouts. BUT again on paper it looks good. hacking fast use codebreakers but give up your damping, armor and speed. choose damping but give up speed, armor, and codebreakers. plus you can not shield tank and use speed mods not enough pg even on proto. so want to ewar to see and hide from the gal or amarr scout great but having low ehp (125 shield & 87 armor) and speed(8.3) . shield it up some and you can not see others scouts. speed tank and some shield you can not hide from other scouts. this is a truly hard scout to run. gall scout fit/ high slots- 2 complex precisions / low slots- 2 complex dampers then 1-2 complex reactive plates or 0-2 complex kin cats. / equipment-proto cloak / weapons and other eq is up to you. when cloak no one can scan you but can be picked up in short range by some suits. though short range is within 10 meters or less.
jace silencerww D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 168	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:52:00 - [76] - Quote now my question to CCP Rattati if you are going to mess with the Minnie scout?
All Gucci T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 245	Posted - 2015.05.22 02:42:00 - [77] - Quote instead of touching min stamina regen, buff the regen on the other races, and either cut some health or speed off of the min or add some to the amarr. Director / Slayer / Emperor
VALCORE72 Vengeance Unbound RUST415 324	Posted - 2015.05.22 11:15:00 - [78] - Quote ratta we need a efficiency bonuses for usen our racial weapons. main weapon . sidearms on the right suits .


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