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[Proposal] Changes to Logistics Progression: 4 Easy Steps

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I-Shayz-I I----------I 5442	Posted - 2015.04.29 10:09:00 - [1] - Quote Since previous attempts at trying to improve logistics have FAILED MISERABLY because our community can't agree on anything, we shall try once more with logic, reasoning, and some freaking common sense. Before you reply, note that this thread is NOT about fitting bonuses, logistics balance, equipment balance, debates over sidearms, shield repair tools, movement speed, dropsuit colors, officer dropsuits, what you ate for dinner last night, etc. Here's the proposal: ______________________________________________________________________________________________ Step 1 All racial suits will have the same number of slots at each tier. Slots can be either High, Low, Equipment, or Sidearm STD: 7 slots ADV: 9 slots PRO: 12 slots ______________________________________________________________________________________________ Step 2 Racial slot layouts for High/Low slots will follow the Assaults EXACTLY. NO EXCEPTIONS Caldari: 3/1 \| 4/2 \| 5/3 Minmatar: 2/2 \| 3/3 \| 4/4 Gallente: 1/3 \| 2/4 \| 3/5 Amarr: 1/3 \| 2/4 \| 3/5 ______________________________________________________________________________________________ Step 3 Fitting space will be slightly skewed up and down for each race according to the same rough percentage increases/decreases that Assaults have The current base CPU/PG for Logistics are: STD - 195/39 ADV - 273/55 PRO - 390/78 Guideline: Caldari: Highest CPU, Lowest PG Minmatar: Higher CPU, Lower PG Gallente: Lower CPU, Higher PG Amarr: Lowest CPU, Highest PG Calculated numbers: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByYUjq_P9RY0LVZlYndVbFVSSlE/view?usp=sharing (note, these are not final, but are a very very good idea of what logistics fitting space should look like for each race) ______________________________________________________________________________________________ Step 4 This is the hardest part. We, as a community, need to agree on two things: 1. Amarr logi gets a sidearm at each tier, but sacrifices one equipment slot at each tier to maintain the same number of total slots 2. What to do about the 4th low slot of the Caldari Logi, since we are sticking to the Assault layouts with NO EXCEPTIONS Number 2 is very simple. Here are your options: -Caldari Logi gets a 4th equipment, just like the Minmatar and Gallente suits -Caldari Logi gets a sidearm at each tier in place of one equipment slot, just like the Amarr suit There is no other option for number 1. Please do not suggest other options in this thread. Either you agree or you disagree. This is mainly to ensure that the Amarr has something unique to offer compared to the Gallente (since both have the same slot layouts) ______________________________________________________________________________________________ This is my ideal course of action. The current progression is ** and we all know it. My idea isn't completely perfect, it's not going to make every last one of you happy and I understand that. But can we please, PLEASE, agree that the current slot layouts, fitting numbers, and overall progression is the absolute worst for logistics? At least give it a chance and don't sidetrack this again. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!**
shaman oga Dead Man's Game 4532	Posted - 2015.04.29 11:09:00 - [2] - Quote I agree, this is going to benefit STD and ADV gal-cal logi especially which are the worst at non PRO level. Shifted in time, your tomorrow, my today.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 2009	Posted - 2015.04.29 11:18:00 - [3] - Quote I commend you for all of your efforts , I hate tierside or however its spelled and step one is opening the door for such because you do that for one class , eventually it will evolve to other classes and roles ... step four involving Caldari Logi's , to me they shouldn't have a sidearm because they will clearly become slayers like previous and don't get me wrong I'm all for progression since I am a Logi / Commando but having played all logi suits , I find that the Caldari and Gal suits are the best combat logi suits .. one because of the shield regen / ammo replenishing and the other for the tank / armor regen & bonus for individual scanning / defensive potential . I just don't see why people have hissy fits over the Amarr logi's sidearm and if you take that I would rather have an additional low slot to differentiate the slot comparisons between Gal and Amarr and the fact that Gals have heightened armor reps . I'm more along the lines of a mixture of step two and three mixed to come about a resolve to this issue but to me logi's need better movement speeds , e-war stats and stamina regeneration . Like I said I commend you but it just seems like CCP has other things on their plate ( money / new content ) , other then fixing what's broken in-game and this matter will continue to get zero attention because it's just not pressed by the logistic community and it's not important to CCP . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed . #PubsShouldBeRandomPlayers
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5446	Posted - 2015.04.29 11:45:00 - [4] - Quote Rattati said specifically that the next thing after fixing the problems with hotfix echo was to swap the logi and assault speeds, then possibly look at progression. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2890	Posted - 2015.04.29 11:57:00 - [5] - Quote As a callogi. Yes, would love 4th equipment (and more bandwidth???). I ate chicken chilli for dinner last night. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Haerr 2865	Posted - 2015.04.29 12:07:00 - [6] - Quote Racial high & low slot layouts follows the Assaults EXACTLY. NO EXCEPTIONS No Logistics suits will have a sidearm slot All Logistics suits will have 4 EQ slots (all tiers) Force all EQ slots to be filled in order for the fitting to be valid Increase EQ CPU/PG fitting bonus for Logistics Assault and Logistics suits swap movement speed ^ I'd very much prefer this. GÖû HAERR'S GÖû
Ku Shala PIanet Express 1424	Posted - 2015.04.29 14:00:00 - [7] - Quote so why does the amarr have the highest pg? sounds like an invitation to fit damage mods in the highs? cal has the fourth L slot because of its high cpu requirements for shield mods(CPU mod required), is the cpu going to be dramatically increased on that suit if you drop a low slot?(+more equipment on PRO) *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist x5)* Caldari Loyalist 22 230 780 sp in drop suit upgrades
Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H 363	Posted - 2015.04.29 17:03:00 - [8] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: so why does the amarr have the highest pg? sounds like an invitation to fit damage mods in the highs? cal has the fourth L slot because of its high cpu requirements for shield mods(CPU mod required), is the cpu going to be dramatically increased on that suit if you drop a low slot?(+more equipment on PRO) Racial progression of cpu/pg. Amarr have the highest pg and cal have highest cpu. Dust 514: Unlimited Scrub Works
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 828	Posted - 2015.04.29 17:17:00 - [9] - Quote Thank you! A logi that isn't trying to camp points, and is actually gunning for balance in a thread! As a gal logi the only useful tier is proto?! The standard and adv gal logi is pretty bad?! Would love to have a 1/3 layout on the standard gal logi! This would help me not have to run proto as a logi, and mercs can stop accusing me of proto stomping..... in a logi... yeah I don't get it either?! Also, the cpu/pg numbers should coincide with theirindividual strengths. Great layout! o7 "Anybody order chaos?"
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 800	Posted - 2015.04.29 22:35:00 - [10] - Quote I can get on board. I would also like to advocate for the standardized progression as you have pointed out, AND in line with HAERR's points agree that the Logi EQ slots be standardized to their total amount at each tier, swap speeds, and increase fitting bonus. If these cannot be met, as you have stated an all or nothing vote. I could not be counted as a solid vote. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6106	Posted - 2015.04.29 22:49:00 - [11] - Quote Yep, nailed it on all accounts. Amarr trading equipment for sidearm is totally fine. Caldari can go either way, that's more of a player feedback thing though I would personally lean towards the 4th equipment. Additionally what can and probably should be done to prevent Logistics from not fitting equipment and using their extra resources to fit excessive amounts of defenses (over than of the Assault) is to increase the fitting reduction bonus for equipment and then decreasing base resources accordingly. So even if they don't fit equipment, the amount of free resources for defenses is not that much higher than the Assault. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1046	Posted - 2015.04.29 23:13:00 - [12] - Quote I'm a NO to slot homogenization between Logis and Assaults. The frame purpose is different so the layouts are different and progression is different. If you're "having" to proto in pubs to be effective in your chosen logistic you've not trained effectively enough in your basic/advanced. Yes to the Amarr keeps the sidearm. Yes to Cal is designated a sidearm. ("option" 2) None of the above should be a suprise to anyone who's been paying attention to this subject material. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 832	Posted - 2015.04.29 23:29:00 - [13] - Quote Tell me sir? What, exactly, can you get done with the gal logi at standard? With only 2 low, no high, 1 weapon slot, and 3 equipment? I'll tell you my view. Dying in a suicidal link spam suit. Not enough high and low slots to be proficient at any one thing. Whether that be speed, tank, ewar, etc. At advanced you have a 2/3/3 equipment setup, but I suggest staying tight with the squad. Yes you can perform, but in my experience you're the guy everyone's trying to carry. However, at lvl 5 this suit makes a miraculous leap to 3/5/4 equipment? At this level it actually performs extremely well, and the bonuses are awesome! Why wouldn't I want the standard to have 1/3/3 equipment slot layout for similar results? Now mind you, at standard level the min logi has 2/2/3 equipment? One may argue the ehp lower, but in the logi class all ehp is low?! I would like my four low/high anyway I can get them. Not because I want to be OP, but because economically it's better for me. Do you run it at standard? Not being combative, but I myself had to stop bashing others for requesting slight improvements in their respective classes simply because I don't run them, and understand their plight. "Anybody order chaos?"
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 6225	Posted - 2015.04.29 23:31:00 - [14] - Quote I'd rather have an 4th equipment on the Amarr logi instead of the 5th low slot but this is better than what we currently have. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1046	Posted - 2015.04.29 23:47:00 - [15] - Quote Bradric Banewolf wrote: Tell me sir? What, exactly, can you get done with the gal logi at standard? With only 2 low, no high, 1 weapon slot, and 3 equipment? I'll tell you my view. Dying in a suicidal link spam suit. Not enough high and low slots to be proficient at any one thing. Whether that be speed, tank, ewar, etc. At advanced you have a 2/3/3 equipment setup, but I suggest staying tight with the squad. Yes you can perform, but in my experience you're the guy everyone's trying to carry. However, at lvl 5 this suit makes a miraculous leap to 3/5/4 equipment? At this level it actually performs extremely well, and the bonuses are awesome! Why wouldn't I want the standard to have 1/3/3 equipment slot layout for similar results? Now mind you, at standard level the min logi has 2/2/3 equipment? One may argue the ehp lower, but in the logi class all ehp is low?! I would like my four low/high anyway I can get them. Not because I want to be OP, but because economically it's better for me. Do you run it at standard? Not being combative, but I myself had to stop bashing others for requesting slight improvements in their respective classes simply because I don't run them, and understand their plight. My regular GalLogi pub fit is an advanced. It runs scans. And an AR. And when I break that **** out and don't play like an assault hard-charging full frontal like an ass it's not only effective but largely profitable as most of my pubs games are. I'm not sure what else you're asking for. Fitting advice? I'll throw you a bone: Get full cores- all upgrades. PG, CPU, Damps, Shield, Armor, your Equip etc. Quit SPing into proto suits and weapons. You mean you want a how-to-logi tutorial? Join Dust Uni. Or Immortal Guides. GalLogi is EWAR and the bonusing is EWAR optimised. Be EWAR and be successful. Be an assault and be dead qqing about how the slot progression sucks. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1046	Posted - 2015.04.29 23:51:00 - [16] - Quote ProTip: 2 low no High = stay the **** in cover. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 2012	Posted - 2015.04.30 00:06:00 - [17] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: I'd rather have an 4th equipment on the Amarr logi instead of the 5th low slot but this is better than what we currently have. Me myself I mentioned a extra low because it's a link suit and to have an extra eq slot to me would be mundane because right now with three eq slots I can litter the field with PRO links and I don't even have my CPU / PG maxed out and this is using the ADV , I basically never use my PRO suit because I don't have to with the set up that I have . My medic , again ADV has six kin reps , PRO scanner and ADV needles . I have a PRO medic that has everything PRO on it besides the Krin's DM's . I used basically all ADV logi's when I used every races logi's and found them quite adequate , never having to go PRO unless I felt the need to , so when I see people complaining about fitting , me myself could not understand it and I don't stack all damage mods and I use a complex shield regulator on every logi suit . I think people have problems fitting because of what their trying to fit , not because of the PG / CPU now the only suit that I had problems with was the Cal but I didn't have to use a CPU mod like most admit to having to do so again , I think it's more along the lines of what players are trying to fit , if they have their PG and CPU maxed and also having SP's in weapons fittings help as well to squeeze the most one can get . I would rather have an extra low to tank or reps then having a fourth eq for my Amarr logi ( the logi I ended up staying with ) because I run links and have zero problems with the BW and or what I'm trying to accomplish . An extra eq to me wouldn't help one bit . Not knocking what you were saying just explaining my reasons for asking for an extra low slot . I picked the Amarr because I like to push links , I can still medic and AV with the sidearm and still have my links active for my teammates . The Amarr logi needs the sidearm , it doesn't make that suit OP .. I think that people just don't like the fact that every logi isn't an instant kill . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed . #PubsShouldBeRandomPlayers
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 2012	Posted - 2015.04.30 00:20:00 - [18] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: My regular GalLogi pub fit is an advanced. It runs scans. And an AR. And when I break that ** out and don't play like an assault hard-charging full frontal like an ass it's not only effective but largely profitable as most of my pubs games are. I'm not sure what else you're asking for. Fitting advice? I'll throw you a bone: Get full cores- all upgrades. PG, CPU, Damps, Shield, Armor, your Equip etc. Quit SPing into proto suits and weapons. You mean you want a how-to-logi tutorial? Join Dust Uni. Or Immortal Guides. GalLogi is EWAR and the bonusing is EWAR optimised. Be EWAR and be successful. Be an assault and be dead qqing about how the slot progression sucks. I'm not knocking Bradric and I'm sure that you weren't either but I can only agree with what you said because it was exactly how I played that suit and had zero problems , I use to use precisions on my suits as well for extra depth . I liked the Gal logi , hell I liked all of them ... I used to have speed hacking suits , e-war suits , medic's , links and e-war suits with the Gal . You know how to run Gal's by the way you talk . I just didn't spam scanners because I didn't need to , one was enough for me . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed . #PubsShouldBeRandomPlayers**
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 808	Posted - 2015.04.30 00:49:00 - [19] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: As a callogi. Yes, would love 4th equipment (and more bandwidth???). Agree 100%. However, as you said, Bandwidth would have to come up. Right now, the only thing that can legitimately go into the 4th low is for bandwidth because, without, even at proto you can't put better than mostly standard and advanced mods. Get rid of that ridiculous 4th low, give us our 4th equipment (even if it is just at proto), and enough bandwidth to actually put some proto stuff on it. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5459	Posted - 2015.04.30 01:07:00 - [20] - Quote Thokk Nightshade wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: As a callogi. Yes, would love 4th equipment (and more bandwidth???). Agree 100%. However, as you said, Bandwidth would have to come up. Right now, the only thing that can legitimately go into the 4th low is for bandwidth because, without, even at proto you can't put better than mostly standard and advanced mods. Get rid of that ridiculous 4th low, give us our 4th equipment (even if it is just at proto), and enough bandwidth to actually put some proto stuff on it. If we went the equipment route, Caldari Logi would also have 3 equipment at standard. not to mention the 4th high slot at advanced, and a third high slot at standard. Thus making it similar to the minmatar and Gillette equipment progression. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!

RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 802	Posted - 2015.04.30 01:20:00 - [21] - Quote If we go side arm route (amarr and Cal) make sure they have 3EQ at STD. I know its off, but 2 eq is not a logi, it is a gimped scout. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5459	Posted - 2015.04.30 01:22:00 - [22] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: I'd rather have an 4th equipment on the Amarr logi instead of the 5th low slot but this is better than what we currently have. Thank you for understanding ^^ While I wouldn't mind having a variation of the suit like that, you have to make sure that Amarr always has the most amount of low slots on their suit. 5 low slots is mandatory, but I can see a debate for a 2/5/4 layout instead of 3/5/3 Although, I still think there needs to be an uniqueness factor between the Gallente and Amarr, which is my main reason for keeping the 3 equipment. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 836	Posted - 2015.04.30 01:26:00 - [23] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Bradric Banewolf wrote: Tell me sir? What, exactly, can you get done with the gal logi at standard? With only 2 low, no high, 1 weapon slot, and 3 equipment? I'll tell you my view. Dying in a suicidal link spam suit. Not enough high and low slots to be proficient at any one thing. Whether that be speed, tank, ewar, etc. At advanced you have a 2/3/3 equipment setup, but I suggest staying tight with the squad. Yes you can perform, but in my experience you're the guy everyone's trying to carry. However, at lvl 5 this suit makes a miraculous leap to 3/5/4 equipment? At this level it actually performs extremely well, and the bonuses are awesome! Why wouldn't I want the standard to have 1/3/3 equipment slot layout for similar results? Now mind you, at standard level the min logi has 2/2/3 equipment? One may argue the ehp lower, but in the logi class all ehp is low?! I would like my four low/high anyway I can get them. Not because I want to be OP, but because economically it's better for me. Do you run it at standard? Not being combative, but I myself had to stop bashing others for requesting slight improvements in their respective classes simply because I don't run them, and understand their plight. My regular GalLogi pub fit is an advanced. It runs scans. And an AR. And when I break that **** out and don't play like an assault hard-charging full frontal like an ass it's not only effective but largely profitable as most of my pubs games are. I'm not sure what else you're asking for. Fitting advice? I'll throw you a bone: Get full cores- all upgrades. PG, CPU, Damps, Shield, Armor, your Equip etc. Quit SPing into proto suits and weapons. You mean you want a how-to-logi tutorial? Join Dust Uni. Or Immortal Guides. GalLogi is EWAR and the bonusing is EWAR optimised. Be EWAR and be successful. Be an assault and be dead qqing about how the slot progression sucks. I have 70+ mil SP lol! Cores lol! "Anybody order chaos?"
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 836	Posted - 2015.04.30 01:30:00 - [24] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Bradric Banewolf wrote: Tell me sir? What, exactly, can you get done with the gal logi at standard? With only 2 low, no high, 1 weapon slot, and 3 equipment? I'll tell you my view. Dying in a suicidal link spam suit. Not enough high and low slots to be proficient at any one thing. Whether that be speed, tank, ewar, etc. At advanced you have a 2/3/3 equipment setup, but I suggest staying tight with the squad. Yes you can perform, but in my experience you're the guy everyone's trying to carry. However, at lvl 5 this suit makes a miraculous leap to 3/5/4 equipment? At this level it actually performs extremely well, and the bonuses are awesome! Why wouldn't I want the standard to have 1/3/3 equipment slot layout for similar results? Now mind you, at standard level the min logi has 2/2/3 equipment? One may argue the ehp lower, but in the logi class all ehp is low?! I would like my four low/high anyway I can get them. Not because I want to be OP, but because economically it's better for me. Do you run it at standard? Not being combative, but I myself had to stop bashing others for requesting slight improvements in their respective classes simply because I don't run them, and understand their plight. My regular GalLogi pub fit is an advanced. It runs scans. And an AR. And when I break that **** out and don't play like an assault hard-charging full frontal like an ass it's not only effective but largely profitable as most of my pubs games are. I'm not sure what else you're asking for. Fitting advice? I'll throw you a bone: Get full cores- all upgrades. PG, CPU, Damps, Shield, Armor, your Equip etc. Quit SPing into proto suits and weapons. You mean you want a how-to-logi tutorial? Join Dust Uni. Or Immortal Guides. GalLogi is EWAR and the bonusing is EWAR optimised. Be EWAR and be successful. Be an assault and be dead qqing about how the slot progression sucks. Also, this doesn't address the fact that the gal slots ARE short in comparison to other logis "Anybody order chaos?"
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5461	Posted - 2015.04.30 01:45:00 - [25] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: If we go side arm route (amarr and Cal) make sure they have 3EQ at STD. I know its off, but 2 eq is not a logi, it is a gimped scout. This is a valid point, but the only way I can maintain 3 equipment at both std and adv is to remove a high Slot from the Amarr At each tier...which I really don't want to do. I am personally more in favor of giving the Caldari Logi 3 equipment slots at std and adv, rather than a sidearm, as this would be a third logi that has a large amount of equipment slots. Like I said, think of the sidearm slot as an equipment. You support players not with standard equipment, but with extra firepower. _________________________________________________________________________________________________ As for the other players who have mentioned not wanting to use assault progression..what do you think about the current slot layouts of Minmatar and Gallente at proto? They have the same layouts as the assaults, so why shouldn't the progression from std and adv also be moved over? Heck, the minmatar one that everyone loves has the exact same progression as the assault and no one is complaining about that. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 6226	Posted - 2015.04.30 02:41:00 - [26] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: I'd rather have an 4th equipment on the Amarr logi instead of the 5th low slot but this is better than what we currently have. Thank you for understanding ^^ While I wouldn't mind having a variation of the suit like that, you have to make sure that Amarr always has the most amount of low slots on their suit. 5 low slots is mandatory, but I can see a debate for a 2/5/4 layout instead of 3/5/3 Although, I still think there needs to be an uniqueness factor between the Gallente and Amarr, which is my main reason for keeping the 3 equipment. Perfected understand, its just there's been times when I've logi-d for some people they'd complained about me not having nano hives and my answer to that was "die and spawn on my uplink you kd/r *****" but now that I'm not racially pure about weapons and suits anymore I'd just use the Minnie logi for this job anyway (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
hold that Capital Acquisitions LLC 797	Posted - 2015.04.30 13:03:00 - [27] - Quote proto and run all 4 logis here, please ccp don't change a thing. logi's are near perfect. also, as soon as you fix the proto hive amount carried i believe the cal logi will finally be able to compete. why can't you fix that problem already.
hold that Capital Acquisitions LLC 797	Posted - 2015.04.30 13:07:00 - [28] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: If we go side arm route (amarr and Cal) make sure they have 3EQ at STD. I know its off, but 2 eq is not a logi, it is a gimped scout. how is it a gimp scout? if you are proto in your respective suits and running the items you get bonuses for.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game RUST415 802	Posted - 2015.04.30 14:37:00 - [29] - Quote I agree with OP. I don't really mind how Cal logi's slots are arranged, so long as they have the correct number in all tiers, and have enough CPU to fit energisers and regulators, without a CPU enhancer. I don't agree with increasing the equipment fitting bonus, it's enough already. Even with an assault/logi speed swap, I find it very unlikely a logi could sacrifice equipment to become a better slayer than an assault. Maybe if you had low cores. Currently assaults can nearly fit full proto anyway. So long as Rattati doesn't increase logi hp it will be fine.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 643	Posted - 2015.04.30 17:16:00 - [30] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Since previous attempts at trying to improve logistics have FAILED MISERABLY because our community can't agree on anything, we shall try once more with logic, reasoning, and some freaking common sense. Before you reply, note that this thread is NOT about fitting bonuses, logistics balance, equipment balance, debates over sidearms, shield repair tools, movement speed, dropsuit colors, officer dropsuits, what you ate for dinner last night, etc. Here's the proposal: ______________________________________________________________________________________________ Step 1 All racial suits will have the same number of slots at each tier. Slots can be either High, Low, Equipment, or Sidearm STD: 7 slots ADV: 9 slots PRO: 12 slots ______________________________________________________________________________________________ Step 2 Racial slot layouts for High/Low slots will follow the Assaults EXACTLY. NO EXCEPTIONS Caldari: 3/1 \| 4/2 \| 5/3 Minmatar: 2/2 \| 3/3 \| 4/4 Gallente: 1/3 \| 2/4 \| 3/5 Amarr: 1/3 \| 2/4 \| 3/5 ______________________________________________________________________________________________ Step 3 Fitting space will be slightly skewed up and down for each race according to the same rough percentage increases/decreases that Assaults have The current base CPU/PG for Logistics are: STD - 195/39 ADV - 273/55 PRO - 390/78 Guideline: Caldari: Highest CPU, Lowest PG Minmatar: Higher CPU, Lower PG Gallente: Lower CPU, Higher PG Amarr: Lowest CPU, Highest PG Calculated numbers: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByYUjq_P9RY0LVZlYndVbFVSSlE/view?usp=sharing (note, these are not final, but are a very very good idea of what logistics fitting space should look like for each race) ______________________________________________________________________________________________ Step 4 This is the hardest part. We, as a community, need to agree on two things: 1. Amarr logi gets a sidearm at each tier, but sacrifices one equipment slot at each tier to maintain the same number of total slots 2. What to do about the 4th low slot of the Caldari Logi, since we are sticking to the Assault layouts with NO EXCEPTIONS Number 2 is very simple. Here are your options: -Caldari Logi gets a 4th equipment, just like the Minmatar and Gallente suits -Caldari Logi gets a sidearm at each tier in place of one equipment slot, just like the Amarr suit There is no other option for number 1. Please do not suggest other options in this thread. Either you agree or you disagree. This is mainly to ensure that the Amarr has something unique to offer compared to the Gallente (since both have the same slot layouts) ______________________________________________________________________________________________ This is my ideal course of action. The current progression is **** and we all know it. My idea isn't completely perfect, it's not going to make every last one of you happy and I understand that. But can we please, PLEASE, agree that the current slot layouts, fitting numbers, and overall progression is the absolute worst for logistics? At least give it a chance and don't sidetrack this again. Agree, and would go with the sidearm for cal logi at this point.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1050	Posted - 2015.04.30 17:39:00 - [31] - Quote Bradric Banewolf wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Bradric Banewolf wrote: Tell me sir? What, exactly, can you get done with the gal logi at standard? With only 2 low, no high, 1 weapon slot, and 3 equipment? I'll tell you my view. Dying in a suicidal link spam suit. Not enough high and low slots to be proficient at any one thing. Whether that be speed, tank, ewar, etc. At advanced you have a 2/3/3 equipment setup, but I suggest staying tight with the squad. Yes you can perform, but in my experience you're the guy everyone's trying to carry. However, at lvl 5 this suit makes a miraculous leap to 3/5/4 equipment? At this level it actually performs extremely well, and the bonuses are awesome! Why wouldn't I want the standard to have 1/3/3 equipment slot layout for similar results? Now mind you, at standard level the min logi has 2/2/3 equipment? One may argue the ehp lower, but in the logi class all ehp is low?! I would like my four low/high anyway I can get them. Not because I want to be OP, but because economically it's better for me. Do you run it at standard? Not being combative, but I myself had to stop bashing others for requesting slight improvements in their respective classes simply because I don't run them, and understand their plight. My regular GalLogi pub fit is an advanced. It runs scans. And an AR. And when I break that **** out and don't play like an assault hard-charging full frontal like an ass it's not only effective but largely profitable as most of my pubs games are. I'm not sure what else you're asking for. Fitting advice? I'll throw you a bone: Get full cores- all upgrades. PG, CPU, Damps, Shield, Armor, your Equip etc. Quit SPing into proto suits and weapons. You mean you want a how-to-logi tutorial? Join Dust Uni. Or Immortal Guides. GalLogi is EWAR and the bonusing is EWAR optimised. Be EWAR and be successful. Be an assault and be dead qqing about how the slot progression sucks. Also, this doesn't address the fact that the gal slots ARE short in comparison to other logis It wasn't supposed to. But, since you ask, the specialized role of the Gal is different and the existing layouts as is are effective for the specialty so no need to redraw them on the basis of "well a different one has this". You want that layout? Go get that suit. And forfeit the bonus. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1050	Posted - 2015.04.30 17:45:00 - [32] - Quote Bradric Banewolf wrote: I have 70+ mil SP lol! Cores lol! Me too. So you really shouldn't be having anywhere near the problems you're claiming except that you're either a) not competent outside of proto or b) looking to excel farther outside of the fundamental use of the suit than it should be. Based on your GalLogi "suicide link-spammer" input, my money is on (b). Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1050	Posted - 2015.04.30 17:54:00 - [33] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Heck, the minmatar one that everyone loves has the exact same progression as the assault and no one is complaining about that. This is an increasingly more frequent idea, and the response hasn't changed, the MinLogi and its progression wasn't changed to mirror the Assault, the Assault was changed and now mirrors the Logi. We don't care on the Logi side because there's no change for us. Our fits, fitting and specialized utility was not affected. Unlike the proposed changes (losses/changes to/of our highs/lows) for our other frames. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1050	Posted - 2015.04.30 18:01:00 - [34] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: I agree with OP. I don't really mind how Cal logi's slots are arranged, so long as they have the correct number in all tiers, and have enough CPU to fit energisers and regulators, without a CPU enhancer. I don't agree with increasing the equipment fitting bonus, it's enough already. Even with an assault/logi speed swap, I find it very unlikely a logi could sacrifice equipment to become a better slayer than an assault. Maybe if you had low cores. Currently assaults can nearly fit full proto anyway. So long as Rattati doesn't increase logi hp it will be fine. Different topic for a different time and place but for the record the class needs an hp buff across the board. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game RUST415 804	Posted - 2015.04.30 19:41:00 - [35] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: I agree with OP. I don't really mind how Cal logi's slots are arranged, so long as they have the correct number in all tiers, and have enough CPU to fit energisers and regulators, without a CPU enhancer. I don't agree with increasing the equipment fitting bonus, it's enough already. Even with an assault/logi speed swap, I find it very unlikely a logi could sacrifice equipment to become a better slayer than an assault. Maybe if you had low cores. Currently assaults can nearly fit full proto anyway. So long as Rattati doesn't increase logi hp it will be fine. Different topic for a different time and place but for the record the class needs an hp buff across the board. So logis will get more speed and hp? What do you propose sacrificing for the use of three equipment slots? I don't think sacrificing just shield regen is enough. Perhaps logi slot progression should mirror scouts rather than assaults? Personally I'd rather have current hp and have speed in line with every other suits speed/hp trade off.
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5469	Posted - 2015.04.30 19:52:00 - [36] - Quote Please don't turn this thread into a debate about logi hp. Like he said, that's a completely irrelevant discussion. COMMON SENSE AND LOGIC would determine that swapping the movement speeds makes the low hp base fine as is. I do think that base stamina should be reduced to make logistics have quick bursts of movement speed to get into/out of a situation quickly, rather than letting them run around at top speed all the time...another way to balance the change, and make cardiac regulators a relevant low slot choice. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 810	Posted - 2015.04.30 22:56:00 - [37] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Thokk Nightshade wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: As a callogi. Yes, would love 4th equipment (and more bandwidth???). Agree 100%. However, as you said, Bandwidth would have to come up. Right now, the only thing that can legitimately go into the 4th low is for bandwidth because, without, even at proto you can't put better than mostly standard and advanced mods. Get rid of that ridiculous 4th low, give us our 4th equipment (even if it is just at proto), and enough bandwidth to actually put some proto stuff on it. If we went the equipment route, Caldari Logi would also have 3 equipment at standard. not to mention the 4th high slot at advanced, and a third high slot at standard. Thus making it similar to the minmatar and Gillette equipment progression. I would be totally OK with this. I run strictly Adv. right now anyways (due to the aforementioned horrible CPU on the proto suit and lack of 4th equip slot to incentivize) and the 3 equipment slots seem fine. Bumping the Standard to 3 equipment may be a bit excessive for a Std. suit but I understand the reason behind it. The extra High slots are fine because I can pack on more shields for survivability. I just feel at Proto it should have the same equipment slots as the other Logis who don't have a sidearm. A 4th equipment slot would allow me to carry Nanite injectors and rep tools along with uplinks and hives. I can literally be a full blown support movement. As it stands right now I have to give up 1 of the 4 at proto and trying to decide which to leave off is agrevating. On a different note, I agree with you that the sidearm is equal to an equipment slot. Let the Amarr keep the side arm in lieu of the extra equip slot and everything balances out. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
Eno Rotarepo Passive ISK Gen 4	Posted - 2015.04.30 23:33:00 - [38] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Please don't turn this thread into a debate about logi hp. Like he said, that's a completely irrelevant discussion. Oh it's relevant. We're just not (per your request) going to have it in here. COMMON SENSE AND LOGIC would determine that swapping the movement speeds makes the low hp base fine as is. Athough practical use of speed tanks (emulating only speed buffs ) or hp tanks (to emulate solely those buffs) under the working conditions really exemplify the need for minor buffing of both I do think that base stamina should be reduced to make logistics have quick bursts of movement speed to get into/out of a situation quickly, rather than letting them run around at top speed all the time...another way to balance the change, and make cardiac regulators a relevant low slot choice. Not without a kick to the regen. Real simple buffing across the board and no tampering of the slot layouts and the addition of a sidearm to the Cal and we're good. Doesn't have to be as tanky as Assaults or as fast as Scouts but competitive enough to have reasonable survival odds in combat environments swarming with both. Though, admittedly that^ is probably outside what you want to keep this thread about. Yes, its an alt. Because Politics is a b!tch sometimes.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1058	Posted - 2015.05.01 00:11:00 - [39] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Please don't turn this thread into a debate about logi hp. Like he said, that's a completely irrelevant discussion. Its very relevant, we're just not having it here per request COMMON SENSE AND LOGIC would determine that swapping the movement speeds makes the low hp base fine as is. Though actual use with tanks one-sided or the other (speed/hp) really prove the need for simple buffs to both I do think that base stamina should be reduced to make logistics have quick bursts of movement speed to get into/out of a situation quickly, rather than letting them run around at top speed all the time...another way to balance the change, and make cardiac regulators a relevant low slot choice. Not without a buff regen-side At the end of the day the slots are fine, some simple buffing across the board and the Cal getting a sidearm has the job done. Not as fast as scouts or as tanky as assaults but reasonably able to survive while working both directly in and adjacent to combat environments swarming with both . There's a number of factors at play in this and many constants have already been established and worth keeping instead of trading them for new variables BUT, again, am trying to keep those elements out of this thread. Per OP. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 810	Posted - 2015.05.01 00:32:00 - [40] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: At the end of the day the slots are fine, some simple buffing across the board and the Cal getting a sidearm has the job done. The problem is most (at least the ones I have talked to, not complete by any means) don't WANT a sidearm. We want bandwidth and a 4th equipment slot at Proto. There are some outliers I know, but for the most part we all would prefer a 4th equipment slot over a sidearm. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1058	Posted - 2015.05.01 00:49:00 - [41] - Quote Thokk Nightshade wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: At the end of the day the slots are fine, some simple buffing across the board and the Cal getting a sidearm has the job done. The problem is most (at least the ones I have talked to, not complete by any means) don't WANT a sidearm. We want bandwidth and a 4th equipment slot at Proto. There are some outliers I know, but for the most part we all would prefer a 4th equipment slot over a sidearm. I'd bet everybody wants more bandwidth, us the most. The sidearm vs. eq slots seems 50/50 from my very non-scientific survey. Based on the bonusing as well as the **** we get for our Amarr sidearm going the sidearm route opens some of the utility as well as balances (sorry Shay, he asked) the class a bit overall, taking some of the wth out when ppl who don't understand combat logistics look at it. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 810	Posted - 2015.05.01 00:56:00 - [42] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Thokk Nightshade wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: At the end of the day the slots are fine, some simple buffing across the board and the Cal getting a sidearm has the job done. The problem is most (at least the ones I have talked to, not complete by any means) don't WANT a sidearm. We want bandwidth and a 4th equipment slot at Proto. There are some outliers I know, but for the most part we all would prefer a 4th equipment slot over a sidearm. I'd bet everybody wants more bandwidth, us the most. The sidearm vs. eq slots seems 50/50 from my very non-scientific survey. Based on the bonusing as well as the **** we get for our Amarr sidearm going the sidearm route opens some of the utility as well as balances (sorry Shay, he asked) the class a bit overall, taking some of the wth out when ppl who don't understand combat logistics look at it. Yeah, the opinions are varied. Maybe it is just the group I talk to vs. you. Either way, you are bringing up valid points. I can normally at least go a 1.0 KDR with my Cal Logi (without putting damage mods in the highs) and back before I knew what I was doing I would deck out damage mods in the highs and rock out so I get the concept of combat logistics. I just know my preference would be more of a full support role so I can do all 4 things really necessary of a Logi. Let people come into the fight, resupply their ammo, bring them back to life, and heal them back up to keep fighting. At a proto level, since the Min and Gal both have 4 equip ( correct? I have never ran either), I would like to have that option as well and let the Amarr keep their niche as the only logi w/ a sidearm. The balance issue is valid, I will give you that. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 440	Posted - 2015.05.01 01:31:00 - [43] - Quote Thokk Nightshade wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: As a callogi. Yes, would love 4th equipment (and more bandwidth???). Agree 100%. However, as you said, Bandwidth would have to come up. Right now, the only thing that can legitimately go into the 4th low is for bandwidth because, without, even at proto you can't put better than mostly standard and advanced mods. Get rid of that ridiculous 4th low, give us our 4th equipment (even if it is just at proto), and enough bandwidth to actually put some proto stuff on it. How about a Bandwidth Enhancement Module, just like for CPU and PG? Professional Logibro and avid AVer -- I support my team for the ISK, but I blow up vehicles for the LOLz.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 9330	Posted - 2015.05.01 01:56:00 - [44] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: How about a Bandwidth Enhancement Module, just like for CPU and PG? Clever! Abuse potential? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 441	Posted - 2015.05.01 01:59:00 - [45] - Quote Haerr wrote: Racial high & low slot layouts follows the Assaults EXACTLY. NO EXCEPTIONS No Logistics suits will have a sidearm slot All Logistics suits will have 4 EQ slots (all tiers) Force all EQ slots to be filled in order for the fitting to be valid Increase EQ CPU/PG fitting bonus for Logistics Assault and Logistics suits swap movement speed ^ I'd very much prefer it this way Racial high & low slot layouts follows the Assaults EXACTLY. NO EXCEPTIONS - Agreed. No Logistics suits will have a sidearm slot - Disagree. I'm okay with Amarrs and Cals having sidearms at the expense of an equipment slot. All Logistics suits will have 4 EQ slots (all tiers) - Agreed, except when said Logi has a sidearm (per previous point). Force all EQ slots to be filled in order for the fitting to be valid - Agreed. Require all EQ slots to be filled to enable the Logi EQ fitting bonus. (next point) Increase EQ CPU/PG fitting bonus for Logistic - Agreed. Assault and Logistics suits swap movement speed - Agree and disagree. Assaults should still be the 'sprinters' of the two, but the Logis should be the 'joggers' (they are carrying more equipment after all) and swap stamina and regen. Professional Logibro and avid AVer -- I support my team for the ISK, but I blow up vehicles for the LOLz.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 441	Posted - 2015.05.01 02:06:00 - [46] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: bogeyman m wrote: How about a Bandwidth Enhancement Module, just like for CPU and PG? Clever! Abuse potential? Maybe. But you'd have to use a low (or high) slot to benefit, so is that much different than a CPU or PG module? If the module was CPU and PG costly (like a Kincat), you would have to downgrade other equipment, shields or armour to take advantage of that extra bandwidth. Professional Logibro and avid AVer -- I support my team for the ISK, but I blow up vehicles for the LOLz.
hold that Capital Acquisitions LLC 802	Posted - 2015.05.01 03:04:00 - [47] - Quote when they fix the amount carried to the proto hives cal logis will be able to carry 6 to 8 proto rep and ammo hives. they do not need another equipment slot. i'm starting to think the people who are complaining are only those maxed in one logi, that feel they should be able to do the job of all four logis in one.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1059	Posted - 2015.05.01 18:23:00 - [48] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: bogeyman m wrote: How about a Bandwidth Enhancement Module, just like for CPU and PG? Clever! Abuse potential? Maybe. But you'd have to use a low (or high) slot to benefit, so is that much different than a CPU or PG module? If the module was CPU and PG costly (like a Kincat), you would have to downgrade other equipment, shields or armour to take advantage of that extra bandwidth. Not a bandwidth proponent or supporter by any means BUT in the current bandwidth landscape I think the sort of abuse potential is less that an individual will spam more at the expense of their armor and more that they'll spam small then by switching into a non-support build with a BW mod effectively self-logi. ie, start in a logi/scout dropping rep/ammo hives and then switch to a heavy and stay in the now permanent (until destroyed) nest. Which was supposed to be part of the behaviour the encumberance bandwidth is supposed to eliminate completely. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 804	Posted - 2015.05.01 21:33:00 - [49] - Quote hold that wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: If we go side arm route (amarr and Cal) make sure they have 3EQ at STD. I know its off, but 2 eq is not a logi, it is a gimped scout. how is it a gimp scout? if you are proto in your respective suits and running the items you get bonuses for. I will try to explain as best I can. At the STD level the Amarr logi and the STD scout slot counts are the same. Same 2H/2L/2 EQ and a sidearm. The specialty of a logi is the equipment it can bring into play to benefit other team members. But when another class has just as much equipment slots, is faster, better regeneration, etc. we get into role bleed where ultimately the STD scout, or Logi Light, excels more than the logi itself. Meaning it is tactically better to run a scout more than the Amarr logi (bonuses included) at the STD level. Until the Logi reaches the 3EQ threshold there are simply better logis that aren't even in the same class. And my emphasis is that IFF the community must choose that both the CAL and AMARR logis have sidearms there must also be an exception in slot counts to allow each logi to begin with 3 EQ. Less than that and it is not a logi. This would make the suits outliers from the norm, again. Though I don't know how the community will proceed, nor how the CPM and Rattati will work the solution, but the lines between classes must be clear and adding a 2nd EQ slot to the scout class (ancient history - not debating the merits or suggesting changes to the class) it also negated the logi suits that just have 2 EQ to start out with. What was once their defining characteristic - more than 1 EQ slot since the dawn of Dust - was nullified. Seeking to define the roles of the logistics class again is that they are the only class that can bring in more equipment than any other class. And right now that is not true. Such changes must be reviewed and debated. My position is that I Prefer the logi with the sidearm, and I COULD live without it. But whatever is done Slot progression must be equalized and the STD logi must have 3 EQ. OR there is no reason to run a STD logi. The ADV tier and Proto tier are then the only choices for certain races if that is not done. Each tier should remain true to the class and true to the balance of the game - limiting role bleed, defining classes, and reflecting each races strengths and weaknesses as much as possible in the current iteration of this EVE fps. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 819	Posted - 2015.05.01 22:25:00 - [50] - Quote hold that wrote: when they fix the amount carried to the proto hives cal logis will be able to carry 6 to 8 proto rep and ammo hives. they do not need another equipment slot. i'm starting to think the people who are complaining are only those maxed in one logi, that feel they should be able to do the job of all four logis in one. Since when is Proto the basis for balancing? Gal an Min Logi can do the exact same thing I am suggesting. But, because at proto a Cal Logi gets more hives, we are asking for too much? If I was a Gal or Min logi, I would be doing the exact thing I am suggesting for Cal. Uplink, Nanohive, Needle, Rep tool. The 4 cornerstones of the logi. Why, at proto, should I need different suits and loadouts to accomplish that.? The reason I never use my proto logi is because I don't have the 4th slot (and the bandwidth gimp is ridiculous on it). One of two things needs to happen, and I don't see any other way around it. We either need a 4th equipment slot (my personal preference) or a sidearm (not what I want to see but it is something). The only suit without one of the two at Proto is a ripoff, and number of Nanohives carried is not a viable reason. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.

Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 819	Posted - 2015.05.01 23:22:00 - [51] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: hold that wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: If we go side arm route (amarr and Cal) make sure they have 3EQ at STD. I know its off, but 2 eq is not a logi, it is a gimped scout. how is it a gimp scout? if you are proto in your respective suits and running the items you get bonuses for. I will try to explain as best I can. At the STD level the Amarr logi and the STD scout slot counts are the same. Same 2H/2L/2 EQ and a sidearm. The specialty of a logi is the equipment it can bring into play to benefit other team members. But when another class has just as much equipment slots, is faster, better regeneration, etc. we get into role bleed where ultimately the STD scout, or Logi Light, excels more than the logi itself. Meaning it is tactically better to run a scout more than the Amarr logi (bonuses included) at the STD level. Until the Logi reaches the 3EQ threshold there are simply better logis that aren't even in the same class. And my emphasis is that IFF the community must choose that both the CAL and AMARR logis have sidearms there must also be an exception in slot counts to allow each logi to begin with 3 EQ. Less than that and it is not a logi. This would make the suits outliers from the norm, again. Though I don't know how the community will proceed, nor how the CPM and Rattati will work the solution, but the lines between classes must be clear and adding a 2nd EQ slot to the scout class (ancient history - not debating the merits or suggesting changes to the class) it also negated the logi suits that just have 2 EQ to start out with. What was once their defining characteristic - more than 1 EQ slot since the dawn of Dust - was nullified. Seeking to define the roles of the logistics class again is that they are the only class that can bring in more equipment than any other class. And right now that is not true. Such changes must be reviewed and debated. My position is that I Prefer the logi with the sidearm, and I COULD live without it. But whatever is done Slot progression must be equalized and the STD logi must have 3 EQ. OR there is no reason to run a STD logi. The ADV tier and Proto tier are then the only choices for certain races if that is not done. Each tier should remain true to the class and true to the balance of the game - limiting role bleed, defining classes, and reflecting each races strengths and weaknesses as much as possible in the current iteration of this EVE fps. I was completely OK with the 2 EQ at standard for Logis until I read this. Very comprehensive and thought out. Personally, I only run Adv. because of the 3rd EQ slot. When you mention the fact that Scouts can have the same amount of equipment, with bonuses, it completely eliminates the Logi. It makes the Standard suit invalid and nothing more than an SP dump until you reach Advanced, where it gains it's advantage. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 450	Posted - 2015.05.02 05:59:00 - [52] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: bogeyman m wrote: How about a Bandwidth Enhancement Module, just like for CPU and PG? Clever! Abuse potential? Maybe. But you'd have to use a low (or high) slot to benefit, so is that much different than a CPU or PG module? If the module was CPU and PG costly (like a Kincat), you would have to downgrade other equipment, shields or armour to take advantage of that extra bandwidth. Not a bandwidth proponent or supporter by any means BUT in the current bandwidth landscape I think the sort of abuse potential is less that an individual will spam more at the expense of their armor and more that they'll spam small then by switching into a non-support build with a BW mod effectively self-logi. ie, start in a logi/scout dropping rep/ammo hives and then switch to a heavy and stay in the now permanent (until destroyed) nest. Which was supposed to be part of the behaviour the encumberance bandwidth is supposed to eliminate completely. None of these ideas will prevent suit swapping, but a bandwidth module that has appropriate CPU & PG costs would restrict what could be loaded on a 'throw away' suit. Professional Logibro and avid AVer -- I support my team for the ISK, but I blow up vehicles for the LOLz.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1066	Posted - 2015.05.02 16:54:00 - [53] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: bogeyman m wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: bogeyman m wrote: How about a Bandwidth Enhancement Module, just like for CPU and PG? Clever! Abuse potential? Maybe. But you'd have to use a low (or high) slot to benefit, so is that much different than a CPU or PG module? If the module was CPU and PG costly (like a Kincat), you would have to downgrade other equipment, shields or armour to take advantage of that extra bandwidth. Not a bandwidth proponent or supporter by any means BUT in the current bandwidth landscape I think the sort of abuse potential is less that an individual will spam more at the expense of their armor and more that they'll spam small then by switching into a non-support build with a BW mod effectively self-logi. ie, start in a logi/scout dropping rep/ammo hives and then switch to a heavy and stay in the now permanent (until destroyed) nest. Which was supposed to be part of the behaviour the encumberance bandwidth is supposed to eliminate completely. None of these ideas will prevent suit swapping, but a bandwidth module that has appropriate CPU & PG costs would restrict what could be loaded on a 'throw away' suit. But if it's that cost intensive then it doesn't really do anything to help either since even though now you've got the bandwidth to have more eq out the rest of the suit module fitting is gimped, even with healthy eq bonusing. (contexted in just being used by logi w/no other suit swap) Only gameplay this seems to create is eq spamming then hanging out in the redline or other no-enemy-traffic areas keeping the BW going to support the spam. I suppose an individual could pilot, but if thats the idea the better expansion IMO would be ensure that the actual Pilot suits many people have asked for just have a healthy BW allocation. I think overall that'd be a better "value" overall design-wise. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5586	Posted - 2015.05.12 14:39:00 - [54] - Quote Bump 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5	Posted - 2015.05.27 21:21:00 - [55] - Quote Bump again because CCP Rattati made a logistics progression thread. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:24:00 - [56] - Quote Read and factored in "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:25:00 - [57] - Quote On step 4: Amarr Logi can have it's sidearm, sacrificing one Eq slot. That is a decent trade and adds flavor and options without getting 'too powerful'. Personally, I really really hope that A-logi has sidearm. Caldari logi's extra slot can go. Even as early as Chromosome's early sketches showed that C-logi had most slots - but there never was any reasoning or logic behind it. That weird advantage can go. Kero's point on Step 3: Make sure that the Caldari logi gets it CPU back to so that it is not lacking fitting power compared to others. (that CPU was nerfed on summer 2013 to address the bumblebee slayer logis but was never returned even after all previous changes) Looking at both sides of the coin. Even Aurum one.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:28:00 - [58] - Quote Logistic suits can have different amount of Eq slots. Even as varied as 2, 3, 4. Looking at both sides of the coin. Even Aurum one.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:31:00 - [59] - Quote Rule of balanced Dust gameplay design: First balance everything on Proto level with maximum combinations - THEN create ADV and STD versions by deducting from corresponding PRO version. This rule should not be ignored if one wants to avoid severel balancing nerf/buff cycles. Looking at both sides of the coin. Even Aurum one.
Scheneighnay McBob Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary 7	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:40:00 - [60] - Quote I only see one issue: minmatar logis seem to be armor tanks right now- I even have my skills set up as such. What you're proposing would change them to shield tanks. Aloha snackbar

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:00:00 - [61] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Step 4 This is the hardest part. We, as a community, need to agree on two things: 1. Amarr logi gets a sidearm at each tier, but sacrifices one equipment slot at each tier to maintain the same number of total slots 2. What to do about the 4th low slot of the Caldari Logi, since we are sticking to the Assault layouts with NO EXCEPTIONS Number 2 is very simple. Here are your options: -Caldari Logi gets a 4th equipment, just like the Minmatar and Gallente suits Or -Caldari Logi gets a sidearm at each tier in place of one equipment slot, just like the Amarr suit There is no other option for number 1. Please do not suggest other options in this thread. Either you agree or you disagree. This is mainly to ensure that the Amarr has something unique to offer compared to the Gallente (since both have the same slot layouts) I say give both "deployment" Logi a sidearm for one less Equipment slot. By Deployment I mean they have a bonus for either Uplinks or Hives, which are both deployables. This would give us both a Shield and an Armor Logi with a sidearm. It would also be nice if the Min and Gal Logi, could quick switch between their weapon and their first Equipment slot by tapping R2, since they don't have two weapons to switch between. Then they could put their Rep Tool/Scanner in that slot. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 08:16:00 - [62] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I say give both "deployment" Logi a sidearm for one less Equipment slot. By Deployment I mean they have a bonus for either Uplinks or Hives, which are both deployables. This would give us both a Shield and an Armor Logi with a sidearm. It would also be nice if the Min and Gal Logi, could quick switch between their weapon and their first Equipment slot by tapping R2, since they don't have two weapons to switch between. Then they could put their Rep Tool/Scanner in that slot. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
HOLY PERFECTION Conclusive Wrath 92	Posted - 2015.05.29 18:29:00 - [63] - Quote Why is minmitar pg 3 lower than it is now. ?? Join Conclusive Wrath or ........... die
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.05.29 19:10:00 - [64] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I only see one issue: minmatar logis seem to be armor tanks right now- I even have my skills set up as such. What you're proposing would change them to shield tanks. They can go either way. That's the Minmatar design at work. Minmatar balance shield and armor with speed, while being slightly more shield focused they have a decent amount of armor variants as well. You'll see lighter Minmatar suits looking more at the shield side of the spectrum medium suits going either way and armor tending to go towards armor. You can of course do as you wish but that's the pattern I see Sgt Kirk's Gallente Propaganda Youtube Channel
ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 00:03:00 - [65] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I only see one issue: minmatar logis seem to be armor tanks right now- I even have my skills set up as such. What you're proposing would change them to shield tanks. I still shield tank my MinLogis..all my Min Suits in fact. I don't like that loss of speed. But, armor does seem to be the way to go. (And before someone chimes in with 'Shields are UP', I still remember the days of 'why would you run armor ever', horrible days.) If you find an issue and I stumble upon your thread, I will do my darnedest to get the issue known. Also, Raptors...
Songs of Seraphim Negative-Feedback. 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 04:15:00 - [66] - Quote Step 1: I'm all for it, with the progression of the Logistics the same as their Assault counterpart. Assuming that the logistics EQ progression is 3/3/4 (where the Amarr may or may not trade its Sidearm for the EQ). Which blends into Step 2. Step 3: I'm unable to open the Google doc since I have crap service at this gig. So I cannot comment on it, and I apologize if I say anything you may have pointed out in there. I'd lower CPU & PG values across the board to avoid the "Killer bee" syndrome. But at the same time, raising their fitting bonus to equipment by an equal margin. And the guideline seems perfect, in my opinion. Step 4: I cannot say anything about the Amarr Logistics as I haven't dabbled in that suit at all. BUT what I'd like to see for the Caldari Logistics is a fourth equipment slot. Let the Amarr be the sole Logistics suit with a sidearm, however the four equipment slots at the PRO level seems a necessity for Logistics as a whole. With 4 EQ, it would cut back the amount of fittings I have for the Caldari Logi, as I'm often forced to choose between equipment. There have been a number of times where I was the sole Logi with no depot in sight and my teammates asked me for needle (check), ammo (check), repair (maybe), or scans or uplinks (I have to give one up so which suit is it?). Hell, currently the Caldari Logi is the laughing stock in the PC realm not because of its "meh" bonus, but because you have to sacrifice slots and equipment to the situation at hand. I don't want to overshadow the other logistics role, but I want to be at their level. I've used a Minmatar Logi that had a much larger effect on my squad than my Caldari Logi did, not because of the rep bonus, but because of the amount of EQ it had made it much more effective and versatile. Typing this out from my phone and hopefully it's coherent as I'm a tad drunk. Achura Bloodline Caldari Loyalist Join Caldari FW via Kirjuun Saaja
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.05.30 04:29:00 - [67] - Quote Just a random thought. What if Logi's had equal but opposite counterparts between rival factions. Would be much easier to balance anyways. Example off the top of my head. Caldari and Gallente: Support Logistics Cal: 5/3/4 Gal: 3/5/4 Amarr and Minmatar: Combat logistics Ama: 4/4/3 + Sidearm Min: 4/4/3 + Sidearm !--CCP, let's push for the license of Dust on both current Gen consoles--!
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5	Posted - 2015.05.31 05:37:00 - [68] - Quote HOLY PERFECTION wrote: Why is minmitar pg 3 lower than it is now. ?? Because the CPU is increased? I based these numbers on how the Assaults are, with Cal and Min having more CPU, and Gal and Amarr having more PG 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
HOLY PERFECTION Conclusive Wrath 102	Posted - 2015.05.31 14:10:00 - [69] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: HOLY PERFECTION wrote: Why is minmitar pg 3 lower than it is now. ?? Because the CPU is increased? I based these numbers on how the Assaults are, with Cal and Min having more CPU, and Gal and Amarr having more PG yes, but im a MK.0 core 5 level 5 and still BARELY make it. i have no pg left to spare. So why take away so much. Its not an assault its a logi, just adjust speeds and boom fixed. Mabye a bit beefier because its suppose to be a medium suit. No but an assault gets 1200 ehp, i get 600 ehp. Son of a ***** Join Conclusive Wrath or ........... die
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5	Posted - 2015.05.31 21:10:00 - [70] - Quote HOLY PERFECTION wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: HOLY PERFECTION wrote: Why is minmitar pg 3 lower than it is now. ?? Because the CPU is increased? I based these numbers on how the Assaults are, with Cal and Min having more CPU, and Gal and Amarr having more PG yes, but im a MK.0 core 5 level 5 and still BARELY make it. i have no pg left to spare. So why take away so much. Its not an assault its a logi, just adjust speeds and boom fixed. Mabye a bit beefier because its suppose to be a medium suit. No but an assault gets 1200 ehp, i get 600 ehp. Son of a *** Okay in math terms... I took the base Proto numbers of logistics (390 CPU, 78 PG), and went 1 standard deviation out from them in each direction to get Minmatar and Gellente values. Two standard deviations is the Caldari and Amarr numbers. The assaults have less total fitting space, but each race has a small amount more/less CPU/PG. I just translated that to the logistics to make each suit more racially diverse...just as pretty much every other suit in the game already is. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!**

Songs of Seraphim Negative-Feedback. 1	Posted - 2015.05.31 21:27:00 - [71] - Quote HOLY PERFECTION wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: HOLY PERFECTION wrote: Why is minmitar pg 3 lower than it is now. ?? Because the CPU is increased? I based these numbers on how the Assaults are, with Cal and Min having more CPU, and Gal and Amarr having more PG yes, but im a MK.0 core 5 level 5 and still BARELY make it. i have no pg left to spare. So why take away so much. Its not an assault its a logi, just adjust speeds and boom fixed. Mabye a bit beefier because its suppose to be a medium suit. No but an assault gets 1200 ehp, i get 600 ehp. Son of a ***** A logi can get anywhere from the higher end of 600 HP to almost 900 HP (or more if you brick the ever-living hell out of it). And that's with good equipment on it. And an assault with 1200 HP is a sitting duck; highly ineffective, sluggish unit. Most assaults have about 700 to 900 total HP. I'm all for the Min Logi having slightly more CPU with slightly less PG, but not far from the "standard". Achura Bloodline Caldari Loyalist Join Caldari FW via Kirjuun Saaja
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5	Posted - 2015.06.06 11:55:00 - [72] - Quote Songs of Seraphim wrote: I'm all for the Min Logi having slightly more CPU with slightly less PG, but not far from the "standard". This is my proposal exactly. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Blueprint For Murder Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 447	Posted - 2015.06.06 17:38:00 - [73] - Quote Seems like a waste of time and resources idk why you guys get in such an uproar over progression of a suit considering once your suit is maxed it no longer matters? Are you just trying to min max logi at a low sp progression? Whats the point? 30 day fast started 6/1/15Life-$
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5	Posted - 2015.06.06 18:55:00 - [74] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Seems like a waste of time and resources idk why you guys get in such an uproar over progression of a suit considering once your suit is maxed it no longer matters? Are you just trying to min max logi at a low sp progression? Whats the point? Uh The fact that Gallente has a 0/2 slot layout at standard is absolute bullshit. No one should be forced to run minmatar just because their own preferred race has a **** slot progression. Unless you're a vet like me you are stuck in that standard suit until you get enough sp to unlock advanced...which both have one less slot than minmatar. On top of that, Caldari desperately needs to be tweaked with some more CPU. Then you might as well account for all races and nudge fitting space around a bit to form more racial diversity. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!**


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Caldari Loyalist

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