Honestly, even the Amarr bonus which works well generally speaking, falls a bit short in that it does nothing for their side arms.

It's mostly in regards to any weapon. If you look at the scrambler rifle or laser rifle they still function very well when used on non-amarr suits, they just function better over extreme lengths of time when used on the amarr suit.

I'll agree that the potential desired buffs on the gallente are a bit wonky to try and find balance for, which is why in one of my previous posts I suggested a reload speed bonus as the primary 'good feeling' bonus, and then the hipfire dispersion reduction as the less obvious but far more performance related buff.

Don't ScPs have subtle heat buildup like the plasma rifle? I think I heard that it can seize up if fired repeatedly. Haven't run into that specifically though ans I haven't the skills for the ammo capacity required to make it work. If so, and the Amarr assault bonus applies to it, then that sounds useful enough to me.

Correct. Reload and Dispersion for gallente. Reload and Kick for caldari.

Provides a bonus to every weapon and some performance to 'primary' weapons.

Don't ScPs have subtle heat buildup like the plasma rifle? I think I heard that it can seize up if fired repeatedly. Haven't run into that specifically though ans I haven't the skills for the ammo capacity required to make it work. If so, and the Amarr assault bonus applies to it, then that sounds useful enough to me.

Yeah I like how people weren't buying into arkena and kirks crap so rather than have an intelligent debate about the merits of such buffs we instead go directly to crying to the CPM member on Skype and now we have him honestly considering a incredibly unbalanced by design buff.

Charming as always I see, MINA.

How despicable of me to talk to a CPM member who asked for feedback. A disgusting effort to horribly unbalance all the things ever in my favour, by all accounts. Truly, it is outrageous that someone would dare put forward their opinion.
Had I not gone for complete transparency and posted the entire conversation, you wouldn't even have known that I was relevant here. Clearly a shadowy and nefarious attempt to make something overpowered!

Sarcasm aside, do you have a personal problem here? When did Kirk or I post something incendiary? Do you simply disagree with our opinions?
If it's simply that you disagree, I suggest trying to find a more civil way of disagreeing in future. A simple 'I disagree' would have sufficed. If you feel the need to insult people merely because they don't share your opinion, perhaps you're not ready for civil discussion?

If you have a problem with what I said to Cross, explain what it is, rather than bitching about me expressing my opinion.

They don't afaik. And that segues nicely into 2 questions I have.

(Disclaimer: I only run Amarr assault to have fun with laz0rs. I have not used the Cal assault in a long long time, since I got my Templar BPO there was no need to use the Dragonfly assault anymore. Same with Gal. I used to use the AR all the time, like everyone, but not for a while now)

1)Gallente and Caldari have by far the most diverse collection of weapons in the game. I therefore donGÇÖt get why a bonus that does not help all of them is a major problem. Example: The Amarr assault bonus only helps TWO weapons (We only have 3, 4 if you count the now-useless AScR). ThatGÇÖs not a valid reason to not use a particular bonus. This is a minor point, but to keep this discussion on track it really should not be forgotten.

2)Why exactly do we have to buff the AR to the point that it would become a viable option to go up against an HMG in CQC? IMO, the point of the AR should be to destroy anyone using a different light weapon in CQC. HMG vs AR should be no contest as the assault is more mobile.

One other thing, which I think is what morte was getting at: The RR is a dominant weapon, it doesnGÇÖt need a whole lot of help, unlike the AR. Why not GÇ£adjustGÇ¥ it to the point it becomes similar to the ScR (would still better than the LR) where it works OK on another suit, but if you really want to make it shine, you need to use the Cal assault? Meaning, increase the BASE charge up time, but with a Cal assault, the charge up time is still LOWER than it is now. Why is that such a horrible idea?

I'm not trying to be an a$$ here, and I acknowlege I have nothing to gain or lose from this, but I'm just curious why these things are or are not part of the discussion.

I'm curious about some more detailed discussion on the pros and cons of this^

Anyone care to wade in and provide some 'line by line' analysis?

I feel largely that this is simply a perceptional bias - don't get me wrong, the amarr and minmatar bonuses are quite good but they're only perceived to be better than gallente and caldari bonuses because they are the *only* source of these bonuses. The gallente bonus in particular (now that we have a bit more information on how dispersion works) is UNBELIEVABLY powerful when moving and shooting it just isn't perceived to be that powerful because it's a 'non-visible' bonus (even with one level in min/amarr or cal suits you can see and feel the differences +rounds/lvl or slightly faster reload).

I've spoken at length before about how in other games 'non-visible' bonuses almost have to reach the point of being overpowered before they end up being valued by players in them

I strongly feel that any bonus to the assault suit should be 'performance' related rather than buffs to straight killing power (like damage, rate of fire, or range which affects how well you're able to project DPS) and for the most part all of the races currently fit that design value with a bit of minor tweaking here and there. To go off on a small tangent, it still seems like a lot of players want to push outright for direct buffs to damage (or ability to project damage) on gallente suits which I think is potentially very dangerous to overall balance and game health as it breaks the standard currently set by assaults. Assaults shouldn't be more deadly with their weapons because they always in every situation do more damage than any player who isn't an assault, they should be more 'deadly' simply because their weapon still functions well the longer an engagement drags on, with DPS / Range / RoF buffs a suit holding them becomes more deadly from second 1 of an engagement. It's been raised to me that "If this were true commando's would be the best suits with their weapons" and I can say from experience they are unless an assault is capable of getting more damage than them by fitting damage mods (most aren't)

1)Gallente and Caldari have by far the most diverse collection of weapons in the game. I therefore donGÇÖt get why a bonus that does not help all of them is a major problem. Example: The Amarr assault bonus only helps TWO weapons (We only have 3, 4 if you count the now-useless AScR). ThatGÇÖs not a valid reason to not use a particular bonus. This is a minor point, but to keep this discussion on track it really should not be forgotten.

2)Why exactly do we have to buff the AR to the point that it would become a viable option to go up against an HMG in CQC? IMO, the point of the AR should be to destroy anyone using a different light weapon in CQC. HMG vs AR should be no contest as the assault is more mobile.

One other thing, which I think is what morte was getting at: The RR is a dominant weapon, it doesnGÇÖt need a whole lot of help, unlike the AR. Why not GÇ£adjustGÇ¥ it to the point it becomes similar to the ScR (would still better than the LR) where it works OK on another suit, but if you really want to make it shine, you need to use the Cal assault? Meaning, increase the BASE charge up time, but with a Cal assault, the charge up time is still LOWER than it is now. Why is that such a horrible idea?
I'm not trying to be an a$$ here, and I acknowlege I have nothing to gain or lose from this, but I'm just curious why these things are or are not part of the discussion.

I haz cal assault 5
I like to use "regen tanking" regulators, Rechargers and energizers
I use pretty all the different caldari weapons, my assault mainly uses assault rails, knives ,bolt pistols and magsecs

As for an additional weapon based bonus; 3-5% recoil reduction,
fully skilled rail weapons(5% kick reduction lvl) along with reload skills (3% lvl) become very potent in a proto assaults hands, even on std or adv frames as long as you have the skills trained
The recoil reduction allows the more trained operative to be able to sustain fire more accurately for longer durations.

The other one for the dropsuit I really like
2-4% efficacy of shield regulators,energizers,recharges
Incentivises regen tanking more, allowing u to edge optimal ranges and fight in bursts between cover

Negatives of these are that they are already skills available, so some things may get out of hand.
However neither bonus effects the assaults hp, range, dmg per shot, ROF

That's my thoughts so far, I hope it helps. Il post any further ideas

Charming as always I see, MINA.

How despicable of me to talk to a CPM member who asked for feedback. A disgusting effort to horribly unbalance all the things ever in my favour, by all accounts. Truly, it is outrageous that someone would dare put forward their opinion.
Had I not gone for complete transparency and posted the entire conversation, you wouldn't even have known that I was relevant here. Clearly a shadowy and nefarious attempt to make something overpowered!

Sarcasm aside, do you have a personal problem here? When did Kirk or I post something incendiary? Do you simply disagree with our opinions?
If it's simply that you disagree, I suggest trying to find a more civil way of disagreeing in future. A simple 'I disagree' would have sufficed. If you feel the need to insult people merely because they don't share your opinion, perhaps you're not ready for civil discussion?

If you have a problem with what I said to Cross, explain what it is, rather than bitching about me expressing my opinion.

I have not sniped in any meaningful way since beta, please elaborate. o7

In the some four or five threads that have been raised about this issue, you have continued to completely ignore any points that don't suit your agenda. Any information that disagrees with your perceptional bias is wrong - no matter how factually correct it is.

To be perfectly honest, yes I do have some issues with you being the first to run to the CPM to get your 'side' in without anyone there to point out where your arguments contain logical or factual fallacies. If you want to talk about insulting people, pot meet kettle, you're black.

Having bonuses to tank rather than weaponry is an idea I quite like!

On the weapon bonus: Kick reduction is going to be far more useful on the Calassault than it is on the Galassault because rail weapons actually have a noticeable kick. I don't think there's any reason that it should be anything less than a 5% per level bonus, though.

Incentivising regen tanking on shields is good.
2-4% efficacy on regen tanking modules is pretty cool, but I don't think 2-4% is enough, honestly. A 10% increase to the effect of regulators won't shave even a single tick off shield regen delays in most, if not all cases and jumping from things like 50 HP/s to 53 HP/s isn't much to write home about either. Give it more than that, 5% minimum. I'd suggest 7.5%.

The Gallente assault bonus is ineffective.

Nobody has ever needed less recoil on an assault rifle. Or any of the other Gallente weapons, for that matter.

It is only in a few cases that lower dispersion is useful.

Lower dispersion is not useful for the assault, breach, or burst plasma rifles. The dispersion on them is entirely tight enough for any form of CQC already, especially on the breach - you cannot possibly need tighter hipfire on the breach.

The only rifle it has some use on is the TAR, and even less so now than it did previously after the hipfire was tightened so significantly. The TAR hipfire is now quite happily up to the task of sometimes engaging targets CQC.

The shotgun does not benefit because everything relies on the centre of the reticle, and recoil has certainly never been a problem for it.

The ion pistol no longer needs the bonus to be mildly functional and is now an adequate weapon in its own right.

Thus, the bonus does not give a significant benefit to any Gallente weapon. In comparison to this, we have the Amarr assault bonus, which has earth-shatteringly powerful effects for the SCR and LR, and the Minmatar assault bonus, which covers the main weakness of the CR and turns it into even more of an engine of destruction.

How, exactly, can the hipfire bonus possibly be construed as 'UNBELIEVABLY POWERFUL'?

The bonus is not spurned because it is not very visible, it is spurned because it is ineffective.

How do you define 'performance'? The Amarr bonus certainly translates very well into actual killing power - the Amarr assault allows you to reliably use the SCR charged shot in vollies without overheating, which gives an absolutely massive performance hike over the unbonused form. That gives a significant advantage in killing power.

As for commandos being the best with their weapons... Really? You say that it only holds true if assaults cannot damage mod past the bonus and that most can't, but... Most can. Both the Amarr and Gallente commandos will be outperformed in terms of raw damage by the equivalent assaults because both assaults can damage mod much more heavily than the commandos. Additionally, the Amarr assault is specifically favoured over the commando for its beneficial effects. If you ask the the LR aficionados whether they would rather use the assault or the commando, they will answer the commando. I guarantee you that the winner of the LR officer weapon used an Amarr assault simply because the Amarr assault is much more damaging with the LR.

The only case in which this can be held to be correct is perhaps the Caldari commando and the sniper rifle - this unique instance due to the importance of alpha in the sniper role.

In the some four or five threads that have been raised about this issue, you have continued to completely ignore any points that don't suit your agenda. Any information that disagrees with your perceptional bias is wrong - no matter how factually correct it is.

To be perfectly honest, yes I do have some issues with you being the first to run to the CPM to get your 'side' in without anyone there to point out where your arguments contain logical or factual fallacies. If you want to talk about insulting people, pot meet kettle, you're black.

This could work very well. Would utterly cripple my enjoyment of the ScR but if it allows for uniform bonuses across all racial assault suits then I suppose its worth giving up.

I am heavily against an optimal range buff on the assault suit, as that directly affects the ability to *project* DPS. I can sympathize with the desire for a range buff on the assault suit, because currently plays within the same schoolyard as the vastly the bully called the HMG, but I feel that this should be a buff to the default value of the weapon itself, rather than something slapped on to the suit to compensate a subpar weapon. I do not feel that *any* assault should be outright better from a damage or ability to project damage than a non-assault, any damage or range buffs throw this out the window completely.

I am all for the assault rifle being in a healthy place, so long as that healthy isn't solely relegated to the hands of the assault. If it were to be relegated solely to the assault I feel that it could have an incredible negative effect on the game as a whole.

I think the 'template' for assaults should be more akin to the Amarr assault, in that the bonus helps make a decent weapon much better by slightly compensating for a drawback, or accentuating a strength. With the Minmatar the bonus is quite good (though I absolutely despise it for being relatively unoriginal and not applying to 50% of minmatar weapons). In the Caldari case while we are happy with the reload speed, a reduction of spoolup is not a meaningful bonus as spoolup is already fairly negligible, kick reduction on the other hand makes the weapons perform much better the longer a fight goes on (which ties back in to the template set by the Amarr and Minmatar).

In the case of the Gallente there are a few downsides to their weapons that aren't necessarily universal or if they are, are points of design balance.
Starting with the Assault rifle:
-Low range (should be buffed on the rifle itself)
-Low total ammo carried (on the standard / burst variants)
-Low magazine capacity (on the tactical / breach variants - offset by having some of the best damage/magazine)
-Relatively high dispersion on most models (compounded with movement, but compensated for by current assault skill).

Ion Pistol
- Low range
- high dispersion
- 'low' total ammo
- Poor charged shot functionality
Designed mostly to be this way

Shotgun
-Low range
-Low total ammo carried
-high dispersion (compounded when moving)
-Lengthy reloads

Plasma Cannon
-Low total ammo.
-Long reload time.
-not a hitscan weapon
-1 shot wonder.

The only real 'feelgood' universal buff that can be given is to gallente assault that benefits all weapons is reload speed, and then the next buff should target the most common factor of non-specialist weapons which is dispersion while moving, kick is fairly negligible or non-existant on most gallente weapons.

My proposal is a 5% buff to reload speed and a 5% reduction to hipfire dispersion.

This right here.

Caldari - 5% bonus to rail reload and 5% rail kick reduction per level.

Allows cal to be very efficient and sustain damage from long range

Gallente - 5% blaster dispersion reduction and 5% reload speed bonus to blasters per level

Fits into CQC brawling. Accurate hip fire, pop behind cover with high armor reps and quick reloads.

These bonuses don't affect the damage vs range balancing that Rattati worked hard for and make just too much sense. Rail charge time is also not favorable for cal because it affects dps of bolt and charge sniper.

Literally no reason Cal or Gal Should receive buffs to two weapons statistics at a 5% modifier.

Literally no reason Cal or Gal Should receive buffs to two weapons statistics at a 5% modifier.