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CPM input request: Assault Bonuses

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Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3376	Posted - 2014.10.20 18:57:00 - [61] - Quote Brain Storming wrote: Gal Assault +5% per level to OPTIMAL weapon range with Gal LWs (this would not alter any absolute range values only increase the portion of the weapons current range profile which is considered within its optimal range). Cal 10% per level reduction to charge time of Caldari weapons - This would include value for the MagSec - This would be a substantial buff to the charged sniper, but only applies to the assault suit so would create another sub-set of possible sniper play (numbers/degrees would need some evaluation) Alternate Cal suggestion X% improvement to hipfire per level - This would make tac sniping more viable - This is intended to happen hand in hand with INCREASED hipfire kick (or dispersion) on the RR to reduce its general CQC application (this is a change that is already being looked into as RR is not supposed to be a strong CQC weapon) - This would allow another method to touch up the Bolt Pistol by increasing its base spread while still allowing for high levels of function at max assault skills Current roughed out idea(s) from conversations so far (I'm still catching up on the thread since I posted it right before I left for work yesterday). I am interesting in perceptions on this (and of course feel free to continue to put forth other ideas). Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Middas Betancore Kirjuun Heiian 93	Posted - 2014.10.20 18:59:00 - [62] - Quote Possible gal bonuses 5-10% hybrid blaster total ammo Bonus to flux nade radius 5%ish Bonus to armour fittings...3-5% armour rep fitting reduction Just ideas... CEO-Kirjuun Heiian-Caldari Faction Warfare Corp Join our public chat channel. Kirjuun Heiian
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18272	Posted - 2014.10.20 18:59:00 - [63] - Quote I've been speaking with Cross via Skype on this topic. Arkena Wyrnspire: "Allow me to preemptively state that both direct range and direct damage buffs are likely off the table due to game wide weapons balance considerations and that the current intent of maintaining some degree of racial flavor within the bonus selected is indented to be maintained. That being said let's put our heads together and figure out a way to improve these racial buffs." I'd just like to comment on this - Unless using very large numbers, neither of these bonuses would seriously affect racial flavour. A range bonus to rail weaponry for the Caldari would still have them as the longest range types, and up to a 25% range bonus on the Gallente dropsuit the range of plasma rifles wouldn't exceed the range of combat rifles. A damage bonus would similarly work for either race because it still wouldn't throw the damage output out of whack with the other racial gear - an RR wouldn't start outDPSing a CR with a 10% bonus, and the 10% bonus already works fine on the commando. Cross Atu: the damage bonus is due to role overlap not balance per se, the commando is already lacking a defined niche so adding a direct damage buff would degrade that still further, range buffs are being left alone because last I heard from CCP things that altered the range of weapons were considered verboden due to how the old sharpshooter skills effected balance. So in both cases I'm essentially just 'coloring within the lines' Arkena Wyrnspire: Is role overlap undesirable? There is a reload bonus presently shared between the Caldari assault and the commando class. Cross Atu: Some degree of overlap could be workable, part of the issue with the commando is that their role is so weakly defined right now and they need their own workup, adding something which further waters down where they are seems like a step backwards that aside giving the assault more damage as an effect does seem good, the amarr bonus is pretty much the gold standard at this point but finding similar things for the gal/cal may be difficult Arkena Wyrnspire: I don't think the commando role is weakly defined so much as the suits themselves are weak. The two light weapon thing is pretty distinctive and a huge incentive to use them. I adore using two light weapons. The main thing that stops me from doing that, though, is that the suit itself is pretty weak. I was inclined to suggest charge time for the Cal and range for the Gal, previously. A charge time bonus would have to be significant, though, something like 10% per level, and that would be a pretty huge buff to the charge sniper. Cross Atu: the one point of unity that has really been present in the commando thread is that they lack fittings resources, and that seems evident to me as well, however when the question of "what do they do" is riased almost everyone has a differing answer regarding the nature of the commando role Cross Atu: [19:11] Arkena Wyrnspire: <<< A charge time bonus would have to be significant, though, something like 10% per level, and that would be a pretty huge buff to the charge sniper.That's an interesting concept for sure, how would you see that being applied? Cross Atu: sorry, wow, totally missed the 10% you typed there Cross Atu: reading fail for me :P Cross Atu: that would provide value to the charged SR, the RR, and the MagSec (nod) Cross Atu: What about (and I don't know if this can be done tech wise) an increase to the optimal of the Gal weapons. Absolute range wouldn't change but I might be able to sell CCP on a buff that expands the portion of weapon range in which you are getting full damage -snip commando discussion- Arkena Wyrnspire: Changing the absolute range is kind of pointless. At that point you've got so little damage it's worthless to be shooting out there anyway. Arkena Wyrnspire: The optimal range would be useful. One of the main killers of AR Galassaults are HMG heavies, because there isn't really a window in which the AR can engage that's safely outside HMG range. Cross Atu: any thoughts on the per level value that would be soild for such a buff if applied? Arkena Wyrnspire: 5% maximum, I think. Past that point it starts to outrange the CR. That'd give about 10m more range. he other thing is that it would affect the shotgun. The plasma cannon still wouldn't be affected but other than a reload or damage bonus there's nothing I can think of that would affect all the Gallente weapons. Cross Atu: They are kind of spread around the map aren't they :P Arkena Wyrnspire: Another thing that could be considered is non-weapon bonuses. For example, armour repairs on the Gallente and shields on the Caldari. Cross Atu: This is true, that would give them something unique within the current assault context. I think CCP is leaning towards keeping the assault buffs more "gank" focused if possible however, so I'll see what they have to say about the charge and optimal increases first :) Arkena Wyrnspire: None of the assaults are really bonused towards gank, though. Only to sustained damage/damage application. None of the bonuses apart from perhaps some edge effects of the Amarr bonus help you actually gank targets quicker. Cross Atu: Higher / sustained damage output is what I was refrencing not pure alpha per se Arkena Wyrnspire: The Amarr assault has some effect on alpha because with the bonus you can reliably use the charge shot. But again, really, it's not higher damage output. It's just better sustained. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18272	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:00:00 - [64] - Quote Cross Atu: Yea, broadly speaking the goal (as I understand it) is to have assault buffs that mitigate the shortcomings of their racial weapons and in so doing provide a better sustained/average damage profile with the amarr being the classic example (tho the min does alright as well AFAIK). But I only have each racial assult to level 1 so my direct personal testing is very limited at this point Arkena Wyrnspire: [19:28] Cross Atu: <<< mitigate the shortcomingsThat fits charge time/range, then. Arkena Wyrnspire: Alternatively, I heard something about Rattati not liking dying in CQC to RRs? If there's a hipfire change on them a hipfire bonus could well work for rail weaponry. Cross Atu: That's a good point as well, touche up the CQC for RRs, and I have discovered it isn't a bad thing to present more than one option when moving ideas forward with CCP ;) Arkena Wyrnspire: It also presents an option for dealing with bolt pistol dominance - upping the hipfire spread. *END CHAT PASTE* I would be interested to hear the thoughts of others. EDIT: Cross sort of summarised at the top of the page. This is here for those who want to know more about the reasoning, though. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Jack 3enimble Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 442	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:01:00 - [65] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Brain Storming wrote: Gal Assault +5% per level to OPTIMAL weapon range with Gal LWs (this would not alter any absolute range values only increase the portion of the weapons current range profile which is considered within its optimal range). Cal 10% per level reduction to charge time of Caldari weapons - This would include value for the MagSec - This would be a substantial buff to the charged sniper, but only applies to the assault suit so would create another sub-set of possible sniper play (numbers/degrees would need some evaluation) Alternate Cal suggestion X% improvement to hipfire per level - This would make tac sniping more viable - This is intended to happen hand in hand with INCREASED hipfire kick (or dispersion) on the RR to reduce its general CQC application (this is a change that is already being looked into as RR is not supposed to be a strong CQC weapon) - This would allow another method to touch up the Bolt Pistol by increasing its base spread while still allowing for high levels of function at max assault skills Current roughed out idea(s) from conversations so far (I'm still catching up on the thread since I posted it right before I left for work yesterday). I am interesting in perceptions on this (and of course feel free to continue to put forth other ideas). Cheers, Cross This would make the Charge Sniper so OP it renders all sniper rifles useless. Besides the real drawback of rail weaponry is kick and its inability to sustain fire in a accurate manner. Not charge up time imho EDIT All caldari suits proto. First proto suit was assault
Middas Betancore Kirjuun Heiian 93	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:21:00 - [66] - Quote If caldari assault were to get a kick reduction, a hipfire dispersion nerf may be needed to give it just the right balance. Bolt pistols would also benefit from hipfire nerf, also I say spread its damage per magazine out to 5-6 rounds Kick reduction makes all snipers better, firing series of shots in quick succession. An interesting difference with commando Magsec hipfire may be ok where it is, kick reduction isn't that necessary...tough one... CEO-Kirjuun Heiian-Caldari Faction Warfare Corp Join our public chat channel. Kirjuun Heiian
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3259	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:24:00 - [67] - Quote CALDARI: Reload speed is not a weakness of Caldari Rail Weapons, the only weapon that would benefit from it would be the Swarm Launcher, which is not affected by the Assault Bonus. Caldari have effectivly 7 different types of weapons, 2 Rail Rifles, Magsec, Bolt Pistol, and 3 sniper rifles. Reduction to charge time would affect 5 of these (Both Rifles, Magsec, Pistol, and Charge Sniper) but the added benefit is small for all of them except the Charge Sniper, so only 1 weapon gets a strong benefit from reduced charge time. Recoil would affect 6 of these weapons (Both Rifles, Magsec, Pistol, Charge & Tac Sniper) but the added benefit is most useful for the Rifles, Magsec, and Tac Sniper, so 4 of the 7 have a strong benefit from reduced recoil. (Correct me if I'm mispeaking on the Sniper Rifles, I'm not as familiar with them as some) Reload affects all of these weapons but as stated before, does not have a strong benefit for any of them, as Caldari Weapons don't suffer much from long reloads. That being said, I feel reduced recoil for the Caldari Assault gives the biggest benefit overall. GALLENTE: This one is a bit trickier, as the bonus it currently has isn't bad, but it feels underwhelming in many cases. Gallente Effectively have 7 different types of weapons, 3 Rifles, Ion Pistol, 2 shotguns, and plasma cannon. Fire Rate/Damage are not weaknesses of the Gallente weapons, as they often support very high fire rates and often the highest overall DPS. Range is an obvious weakness but with recent balance passes, DPS is balanced against range. Giving Gallente Weapons more range breaks this progression and infringes on other weapons, so I'm extremely reluctant to go that direction. This would benefit all weapons save perhaps the PLC. Dispersion would benefit all 3 rifles and the ion pistol (though the Tac AR would have a lesser benefit.) If the bonus actually tightened the Shotgun's cone I think it would be far better received, with perhaps a buff to the bonus amount. Honestly if we're avoiding damage and range, I think dispersion is really the only logical choice, perhaps reworked a bit to make it sound and feel more appealing. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Middas Betancore Kirjuun Heiian 93	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:34:00 - [68] - Quote Blaster optimal is lowest, being able to buff it only on the assault suit sounds reasonable If you do it so it outranges the next longest projectile, the assault gains a niche, the commando keeps the niche of up close rapid reload Essentially a max gal assault retains his power further into his maximum range It just might work Only the assault can do it.. Shotguns and ion pistol range is so small...not sure it will give u much CEO-Kirjuun Heiian-Caldari Faction Warfare Corp Join our public chat channel. Kirjuun Heiian
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1972	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:36:00 - [69] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Gallente Assault (duh :p ) I feel that a Range bonus to Hybrid Plasma would be the best way to solve this issue. I've been debating between the RoF bonus and Range bonus for quite some time but I finally decided to go with the Range. We could increase range in three ways: A). Give a slight bonus to both Falloff range and Optimal Range B). Give a nice bonus to Falloff Range C). Give a nice bonus to Optimal Range *(My personal Favorite)* Any of those three I'd be happy with. No matter how much you hear random blueberries saying the bonus is useful they are falling victim to the placebo effect and a majority of the time they are in NPC corps. Do not listen to these guys, I've never met another primary Gallente Assault (that's actually good) that said the bonus was good like the Amarr and Minmatar. Caldari Assault user. But increasing optimal range, like the old sharpshooter skill, was removed for being OP, was it not? Not that I'm against it, but we do need to avoid making the next FOTM if possible. I think option A you suggested would be a good balance. Say 3% per level. Gives a healthy boost to both. The weakness is range and assaults are all about shoring up the weaknesses of their rifles, but again, wasn't range increases through skills removed for a reason? You are right and we should not get too crazy with the range if it were to happen but remember that the Game was very different to what we have now. Just to put things in perspective; The Duvolle Tactical has less range than the Rail Rifle and the Duvolle Assault Rifle has less range than the Duvolle Tactical. In my ideal world the Gallente Assault bonus would bounce the Duvolle Assault Rifle to Duvolle Tactical Ranges and put the Duvolle Tactical around the same range as the Rail Rifle. This may sound like it may be OP but the lower Alpha damage will not make it seem like the Rail Rifle at longer Ranges. The Rail has the benefit of higher Alpha so the Falloff doesn't hurt it as much as it would the Plasma Rifles. An interesting point. I am for it, as long as it doesn't encroach onto other rifles' territory. I think the PR should be lacking at range compared to the RR, but I'm definitely in favor of closing the gap some. I don't want it I just need it To breath, to feel, to know I'm alive
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18275	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:42:00 - [70] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: If the bonus actually tightened the Shotgun's cone I think it would be far better received, with perhaps a buff to the bonus amount. Despite appearances, if you do not have the centre of the shotgun reticule on a target you will do no damage. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3377	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:43:00 - [71] - Quote Jack 3enimble wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Brain Storming wrote: Gal Assault +5% per level to OPTIMAL weapon range with Gal LWs (this would not alter any absolute range values only increase the portion of the weapons current range profile which is considered within its optimal range). Cal 10% per level reduction to charge time of Caldari weapons - This would include value for the MagSec - This would be a substantial buff to the charged sniper, but only applies to the assault suit so would create another sub-set of possible sniper play (numbers/degrees would need some evaluation) Alternate Cal suggestion X% improvement to hipfire per level - This would make tac sniping more viable - This is intended to happen hand in hand with INCREASED hipfire kick (or dispersion) on the RR to reduce its general CQC application (this is a change that is already being looked into as RR is not supposed to be a strong CQC weapon) - This would allow another method to touch up the Bolt Pistol by increasing its base spread while still allowing for high levels of function at max assault skills Current roughed out idea(s) from conversations so far (I'm still catching up on the thread since I posted it right before I left for work yesterday). I am interesting in perceptions on this (and of course feel free to continue to put forth other ideas). Cheers, Cross This would make the Charge Sniper so OP it renders all sniper rifles useless. Besides the real drawback of rail weaponry is kick and its inability to sustain fire in a accurate manner. Not charge up time imho EDIT All caldari suits proto. First proto suit was assault I have not sniped in any meaningful way since beta, please elaborate. o7 See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 146	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:43:00 - [72] - Quote Lol and thats why you shouldn't skype with strange people on the net lolz. Did he/she convince you lol? ..Sigh.. Back to the topic: The goal should be to make each classes more unique instead of attempting to generalize them or attempt to make them over powered; It might even help if you Imagine the RR and CR in a balance state. New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1412	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:46:00 - [73] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Brain Storming wrote: Gal Assault +5% per level to OPTIMAL weapon range with Gal LWs (this would not alter any absolute range values only increase the portion of the weapons current range profile which is considered within its optimal range). Cal 10% per level reduction to charge time of Caldari weapons - This would include value for the MagSec - This would be a substantial buff to the charged sniper, but only applies to the assault suit so would create another sub-set of possible sniper play (numbers/degrees would need some evaluation) Alternate Cal suggestion X% improvement to hipfire per level - This would make tac sniping more viable - This is intended to happen hand in hand with INCREASED hipfire kick (or dispersion) on the RR to reduce its general CQC application (this is a change that is already being looked into as RR is not supposed to be a strong CQC weapon) - This would allow another method to touch up the Bolt Pistol by increasing its base spread while still allowing for high levels of function at max assault skills Current roughed out idea(s) from conversations so far (I'm still catching up on the thread since I posted it right before I left for work yesterday). I am interesting in perceptions on this (and of course feel free to continue to put forth other ideas). Cheers, Cross I am heavily against an optimal range buff on the assault suit, as that directly affects the ability to project DPS. I can sympathize with the desire for a range buff on the assault suit, because currently plays within the same schoolyard as the vastly the bully called the HMG, but I feel that this should be a buff to the default value of the weapon itself, rather than something slapped on to the suit to compensate a subpar weapon. I do not feel that any assault should be outright better from a damage or ability to project damage than a non-assault, any damage or range buffs throw this out the window completely. I am all for the assault rifle being in a healthy place, so long as that healthy isn't solely relegated to the hands of the assault. If it were to be relegated solely to the assault I feel that it could have an incredible negative effect on the game as a whole. I think the 'template' for assaults should be more akin to the Amarr assault, in that the bonus helps make a decent weapon much better by slightly compensating for a drawback, or accentuating a strength. With the Minmatar the bonus is quite good (though I absolutely despise it for being relatively unoriginal and not applying to 50% of minmatar weapons). In the Caldari case while we are happy with the reload speed, a reduction of spoolup is not a meaningful bonus as spoolup is already fairly negligible, kick reduction on the other hand makes the weapons perform much better the longer a fight goes on (which ties back in to the template set by the Amarr and Minmatar). In the case of the Gallente there are a few downsides to their weapons that aren't necessarily universal or if they are, are points of design balance. Starting with the Assault rifle: -Low range (should be buffed on the rifle itself) -Low total ammo carried (on the standard / burst variants) -Low magazine capacity (on the tactical / breach variants - offset by having some of the best damage/magazine) -Relatively high dispersion on most models (compounded with movement, but compensated for by current assault skill). Ion Pistol - Low range - high dispersion - 'low' total ammo - Poor charged shot functionality Designed mostly to be this way Shotgun -Low range -Low total ammo carried -high dispersion (compounded when moving) -Lengthy reloads Plasma Cannon -Low total ammo. -Long reload time. -not a hitscan weapon -1 shot wonder. The only real 'feelgood' universal buff that can be given is to gallente assault that benefits all weapons is reload speed, and then the next buff should target the most common factor of non-specialist weapons which is dispersion while moving, kick is fairly negligible or non-existant on most gallente weapons. My proposal is a 5% buff to reload speed and a 5% reduction to hipfire dispersion. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
hfderrtgvcd 902	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:47:00 - [74] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Jack 3enimble wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Brain Storming wrote: Gal Assault +5% per level to OPTIMAL weapon range with Gal LWs (this would not alter any absolute range values only increase the portion of the weapons current range profile which is considered within its optimal range). Cal 10% per level reduction to charge time of Caldari weapons - This would include value for the MagSec - This would be a substantial buff to the charged sniper, but only applies to the assault suit so would create another sub-set of possible sniper play (numbers/degrees would need some evaluation) Alternate Cal suggestion X% improvement to hipfire per level - This would make tac sniping more viable - This is intended to happen hand in hand with INCREASED hipfire kick (or dispersion) on the RR to reduce its general CQC application (this is a change that is already being looked into as RR is not supposed to be a strong CQC weapon) - This would allow another method to touch up the Bolt Pistol by increasing its base spread while still allowing for high levels of function at max assault skills Current roughed out idea(s) from conversations so far (I'm still catching up on the thread since I posted it right before I left for work yesterday). I am interesting in perceptions on this (and of course feel free to continue to put forth other ideas). Cheers, Cross This would make the Charge Sniper so OP it renders all sniper rifles useless. Besides the real drawback of rail weaponry is kick and its inability to sustain fire in a accurate manner. Not charge up time imho EDIT All caldari suits proto. First proto suit was assault I have not sniped in any meaningful way since beta, please elaborate. o7 basically doubles the dps of the charge sniper You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1412	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:51:00 - [75] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Lol and thats why you shouldn't skype with strange people on the net lolz. Did he/she convince you lol? ..Sigh.. Back to the topic: The goal should be to make each classes more unique instead of attempting to generalize them or attempt to make them over powered; It might even help if you Imagine the RR and CR in a balance state. Yeah I like how people weren't buying into arkena and kirks crap so rather than have an intelligent debate about the merits of such buffs we instead go directly to crying to the CPM member on Skype and now we have him honestly considering a incredibly unbalanced by design buff. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3377	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:52:00 - [76] - Quote More specifically to the point, Is it the buff type or the numeric value which causes issues? See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1972	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:53:00 - [77] - Quote I think Caldari Assault needs a recoil reduction. This is the disadvantage of all rail weapons (BP, RR, SR, Magsec) and helps the weapon apply more DPS, which is what the Amarr and MinAssault suits do. I don't want it I just need it To breath, to feel, to know I'm alive
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1412	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:58:00 - [78] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: More specifically to the point, Is it the buff type or the numeric value which causes issues? It's the buff type. Any buff to range affects ability to project dps, which is inherently unbalanced when it comes to assault vs non-assault. Because the assault suits are so good now, buffs to them should not ever affect up front dps versus other suits, but their ability to project that dps over time - assaults should be used for staying power and slaying power not for being the I win because i murder 55% harder suit. Assaults should be oriented towards damage over time, rather than frontloaded damage. Range is a buff that affects damage over time from a distance. It's quite clear that the assault rifle needs a range buff, but that needs to happen to the assault rifle itself - it's in the same rough engagement range as the HMG, which really hurts its function as a primary weapon. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 49	Posted - 2014.10.20 20:03:00 - [79] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: More specifically to the point, Is it the buff type or the numeric value which causes issues? As a Gallente commando, I can say that the biggest detriment to the Plasma rifle is it's range. It has a optimal of 42 meters and an effective of 70m. It is specifically this 28m difference that is the problem as the RR and ScR have on difference of 20. This is a problem with the weapon itself, and I believe that the assault getting a bonus to this weapon would fix this problem. It means that while an assault is more incentivised to use this weapon, nobody else is. I so WAY more Galmandos with RRs and CRs because they have better performance in general. This is indicative of the Plasma rifle itself needing a buff, not the Gal assault suit needing one. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3377	Posted - 2014.10.20 20:03:00 - [80] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Blueprint For Murder wrote: Lol and thats why you shouldn't skype with strange people on the net lolz. Did he/she convince you lol? ..Sigh.. Back to the topic: The goal should be to make each classes more unique instead of attempting to generalize them or attempt to make them over powered; It might even help if you Imagine the RR and CR in a balance state. Yeah I like how people weren't buying into arkena and kirks crap so rather than have an intelligent debate about the merits of such buffs we instead go directly to crying to the CPM member on Skype and now we have him honestly considering a incredibly unbalanced by design buff. A) Chill B) I have e-mail, skype, and this thread all of which I'm monitoring, people are *supposed* to talk to me, that's kind of the point C) When I say what do people think of this and why, let's discuss that's what it means, it is not rhetorical. If you have points to make then make them. nods at back on topic Just like that. D) This thread only went up last night before I left for work, it is hardly in a finalized state (even so the type of buffs proposed in the quoted text are hardly unique to the skype chat, changes of that type have already been mentioned in this thread by more than one person). So to refocus: Feedback is more valuable when it contains descriptions rather than statements Feedback is more actionable when it is debating the topic rather than the presenter Feedback which defines "how" and/or "why" is vastly more useful that statements about "what" These are all key, as an example saying "that would be OP" doesn't really do much in the way of supplying constructive information. Whereas by contrast saying "change X would effect mechanic Y in Z manner which would be over powered" can be applied usefully and discussed constructively. With regards to your prior post those are fair points to raise and consider. Having said that if something is potent but feels underwhelming a change may very much still be called for. Note I say change not buff. Base value in a game is - theoretically - fun factor. If something feels underwhelming to a substantial number of players it is at least worth looking at the mechanic in question and seeing if there are ways to apply polish. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Middas Betancore Kirjuun Heiian 93	Posted - 2014.10.20 20:08:00 - [81] - Quote So if we buff the plasma rifle optimal 5-8m, what should the gal assault have with its new found optimal range? CEO-Kirjuun Heiian-Caldari Faction Warfare Corp Join our public chat channel. Kirjuun Heiian
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1413	Posted - 2014.10.20 20:10:00 - [82] - Quote Middas Betancore wrote: So if we buff the plasma rifle optimal 5-8m, what should the gal assault have with its new found optimal range? If we fixed the optimal on the rifle I don't think there is a need for an optimal range buff on the suit. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3377	Posted - 2014.10.20 20:12:00 - [83] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Cross Atu wrote: More specifically to the point, Is it the buff type or the numeric value which causes issues? It's the buff type. Any buff to range affects ability to project dps, which is inherently unbalanced when it comes to assault vs non-assault. Any buff to DPS affects balance of assaults vs non assault. Because the assault suits are so good now, buffs to them should not ever affect up front dps versus other suits, but their ability to project that dps over time - assaults should be used for staying power and durational slaying power not for being the 'I win because i murder 55% harder suit'. Assaults should be oriented towards damage over time, rather than frontloaded damage - this is the template set by the amarr and minmatar. Range is a buff that affects damage over time from a distance which throws assault vs non assault. It's quite clear that the assault rifle needs a range buff, but that needs to happen to the assault rifle itself - it's in the same rough engagement range as the HMG, which really hurts its function as a primary weapon. This is in reference to the mentioned Gal bonus yes? Rather than the mentioned Cal bonus? Presuming that is the case an elaboration also needs to be made for more weapons that the Gal AR (not saying this needs to happen in your quoted text, just in general) because the assault bonus being defined by a single weapon seems like a poor method to take. In the case of the Gal this makes finding applicable buffs tricky. I realize that "feel" is more than a little slippery when it comes to how it interacts with numeric balance and certainly giving something extra power because the feel isn't as appealing will rarely result in a positive outcome so keeping an eye on that is key. 'Threading the needle' this point consists of finding something which address the consistent requests for a more meaningful Gal/Cal bonus, applies to more than one weapon sub-type within the racial line, and does not break the power curve. Some of this stuff is apples to oranges but it is all relevant. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
hfderrtgvcd 903	Posted - 2014.10.20 20:14:00 - [84] - Quote while we're talking about assault bonuses, shouldn't the minmatar assault bonus also benefit mass drivers and flaylocks? You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 49	Posted - 2014.10.20 20:15:00 - [85] - Quote Middas Betancore wrote: So if we buff the plasma rifle optimal 5-8m, what should the gal assault have with its new found optimal range? If we adjust the range on the rifle itself, then it needs no further adjustment in that regard. I think it's current bonus is good, but perhaps if it were adjusted by a larger amount, like 6% or 8% or even 10%, then it might seems more useful. The rifle itself handles fine in general. Being able to aim down sights to hit a target in the head at a distance, and being able to hit the target up close, while still getting to actively maintain maximum maneuverability makes it a powerful bonus. This could also make the shotgun VERY good if the numbers work out correctly, but I am not an expert on that weapon. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Middas Betancore Kirjuun Heiian 93	Posted - 2014.10.20 20:15:00 - [86] - Quote Agreed, so in feeling something about armour, incentivise reactives and ferroscale, maybe repairers, try and promote a more mobile high repair suit, contrasting more with commandos and sentinels slow, high hp play CEO-Kirjuun Heiian-Caldari Faction Warfare Corp Join our public chat channel. Kirjuun Heiian
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 50	Posted - 2014.10.20 20:19:00 - [87] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: while we're talking about assault bonuses, shouldn't the minmatar assault bonus also benefit mass drivers and flaylocks? I believe it should. The PLC and Swarm are AV weapons, and I feel their universal need to fulfill that roll should exclude them from similar balance concerns for their respective assaults, the Flaylock and MD need some love too. Perhaps a +10% magazine capacity per level bonus to those weapons should be in order. Or maybe another bonus that effects their performance. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3377	Posted - 2014.10.20 20:20:00 - [88] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: while we're talking about assault bonuses, shouldn't the minmatar assault bonus also benefit mass drivers and flaylocks? Ideally yes, I think it should. Consider that conversation also on the table. EDIT: Honestly, even the Amarr bonus which works well generally speaking, falls a bit short in that it does nothing for their side arms. There may not be a way to do this properly but in an ideal world it seems like an assault suit should provide enhanced *sustained* (not alpha) damage from its racially related weapons (both light weapons and sidearms). ^This is my fundamental conception/impression. If anyone thinks I'm crazy, or doesn't know what the kitten I'm talking about, feel free to discuss it with me here. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 50	Posted - 2014.10.20 20:25:00 - [89] - Quote Middas Betancore wrote: Agreed, so in feeling something about armour, incentivise reactives and ferroscale, maybe repairers, try and promote a more mobile high repair suit, contrasting more with commandos and sentinels slow, high hp play I think that as it stands, the ferroscale and reactive plates just don't provide enough incentive to use them over a regular plate and armor rep. Ideally, as they make kin cats, a gal should have speed to help them close the gap, but the speed/HP, and range/DPS balances aren't easy things to simply point out as having one or two problems. I think this warrants further investigation. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1413	Posted - 2014.10.20 20:27:00 - [90] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Cross Atu wrote: More specifically to the point, Is it the buff type or the numeric value which causes issues? It's the buff type. Any buff to range affects ability to project dps, which is inherently unbalanced when it comes to assault vs non-assault. Any buff to DPS affects balance of assaults vs non assault. Because the assault suits are so good now, buffs to them should not ever affect up front dps versus other suits, but their ability to project that dps over time - assaults should be used for staying power and durational slaying power not for being the 'I win because i murder 55% harder suit'. Assaults should be oriented towards damage over time, rather than frontloaded damage - this is the template set by the amarr and minmatar. Range is a buff that affects damage over time from a distance which throws assault vs non assault. It's quite clear that the assault rifle needs a range buff, but that needs to happen to the assault rifle itself - it's in the same rough engagement range as the HMG, which really hurts its function as a primary weapon. This is in reference to the mentioned Gal bonus yes? Rather than the mentioned Cal bonus? Presuming that is the case an elaboration also needs to be made for more weapons that the Gal AR (not saying this needs to happen in your quoted text, just in general) because the assault bonus being defined by a single weapon seems like a poor method to take. In the case of the Gal this makes finding applicable buffs tricky. I realize that "feel" is more than a little slippery when it comes to how it interacts with numeric balance and certainly giving something extra power because the feel isn't as appealing will rarely result in a positive outcome so keeping an eye on that is key. 'Threading the needle' this point consists of finding something which address the consistent requests for a more meaningful Gal/Cal bonus, applies to more than one weapon sub-type within the racial line, and does not break the power curve. Some of this stuff is apples to oranges but it is all relevant. It's mostly in regards to any weapon. If you look at the scrambler rifle or laser rifle they still function very well when used on non-amarr suits, they just function better over extreme lengths of time when used on the amarr suit. I'll agree that the potential desired buffs on the gallente are a bit wonky to try and find balance for, which is why in one of my previous posts I suggested a reload speed bonus as the primary 'good feeling' bonus, and then the hipfire dispersion reduction as the less obvious but far more performance related buff. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.



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