So. The reasonGǪ one of the big problems I have is because itGÇÖs so expensive, people are actually not using [prototype suits], and we have really good people, really good players, and I know some people from CPM actually are doing that, that play militia gear. What the point? I donGÇÖt want that! I donGÇÖt want anybody to play militia gear when youGÇÖre done with militia gear just because a drop suit is expensive. You should be proud of, you know, having unlocked that drop suit and playing with that drop suit.

no.

vehicle combat is too fast for a capacitor to be a viable balancing tool, cool thingy/what have you. honestly I question how much time everyone who suggests this has spent in a vehicle(you aren't the first and undoubtedly wont be the last).

being completely honest the module wheel is a sub optimal solution to having a larger number of mods than buttons. anyone who has spent any time in a vehicle has turned off mods accidentally or selected the wrong mod and this typically results in death or best case a severe disadvantage. it also obstructs the screen and inhibits combat.

pulsing a rep is a common practice with a capacitor, for those unaware repairs/shield boosters take up a massive amount of cap per cycle so capsuleers switch them on and off regularly depending on how the fight is going and what other modules need to be on. can you imagine trying to pulse a rep while flying a dropship? or while in the middle of a tank battle? cap management in combat would be a nightmare.

in eve with a couple of mouse clicks you lock onto and fire on a ship automatically you don't need to aim or fire and there is no cover. flying is largely taken out of the pilots hands as well, this frees up time and concentration to focus on cap management. not to mention the TTK in eve is very long so if you make a mistake it's not the end of the world. the module activation system is very simple and fast to use unlike dust's and doesn't interrupt damage output or flight.

TL;DR no.

The nature of the EVE skill system is also a huge component of why EVE has done so well. You gain linear improvement for exponential SP investment. This has several advantages: you can get into the basics of a role very quickly, but it takes a lot of time to truly excel in it. This encourages deep commitment, but allows a lot of player freedom and flexibility. YouGÇÖre never GÇ£doneGÇ¥ with EVEGÇÖs progression. DUST 514 has this advantage as well. Abandoning it is a catastrophic error in judgment.

(Continued)

CCP hire this man! everything but his opinion of capacitors is spot on.

CCP hire this man! everything but his opinion of capacitors is spot on.

What makes DUST special IS that a player with 50 million SP can still have a use for a militia drop suit. That ALL of those 2,000+ suits/items you have are actually useful and donGÇÖt become obsolete once you reach the next GÇ£level.GÇ¥ High SP players can squeeze higher meta modules into that militia suit and create great ISK efficient fits with it. ItGÇÖs incredibly gratifying to kill someone wearing a very expensive suit using a cheap one. The asymmetrical nature of DUST 514 is what makes the game compelling. There is supposed to be an economic ecosystem where you run cheap suits/fits at a disadvantage or grind PvE (in theory) to build ISK so you can buy better suits that give you an advantage. DUSTGÇÖs economy is broken because of the ISK faucet PC has become, not because of this modelGÇöwhich is excellent. This is a system that has both depth and longevity. Having suits follow a linear progression suit A < suit B < suit C gets stale once youGÇÖve maxed out your suit. And no, looking at your old suits stacked up in your quarters doesnGÇÖt fix this. The inevitable result is to introduce an expansion with suit D that everyone works towards, and then getGÇÖs bored with: i.e. the gear treadmill. People get exhausted with this kind of system and eventually move on to another game. All MMOGÇÖs with this approach to progression have declined in users over time. The only one that hasnGÇÖt is EVE, and it doesnGÇÖt use this approach. It is foolish to ignore this point.
(Continued)

I'm afraid that you have written a massive and detailed post which is completely and utterly wrong.

You don't even understand how Dust progression is fundamentally different to EVE's much better system.

If you get your wish and it appears many legion fans support you, then you are dooming Dust to the same imbalanced graveyard that killed Dust. You think Dust is "asymmetrical" but it isn't, it's just unbalanced.

Go look at EVE's SP system and how it relates to ships and equipment. If you can come back here and explain how they are different to Dust then you will rewrite your own post without me having to tell you why.

A must read for CCP.

And where be all this legion info, I'm clearly not looking hard enough.

CCP hire this man! everything but his opinion of capacitors is spot on.

Yes, EVE and Dust's skill trees are significantly different, for one, Nothing in dust has multiple pre-requisites.

If anything, this is a sign that we should move even FURTHER away from the proposed Legion's skill tree, into something closer to EVE's, that's more inter-woven.


[quote=Kincate]
Overall I like the post however a quick counterpoint to this is the fact that if I take a wolf out for a spin and come across a rifter, skills of the pilots being equal, the wolf will win./quote]

While yes, a wolf will almost always beat a rifter, all other things being equal, the wolf has other disadvantages over the rifter, that don't deal with price. IIRC, the rifter is faster and more agile, as well as has a significantly better cap recharge time.






I'm worried about the dumbing down of the skill-tree.
Here's a scene in my head.
Sir A: Hey, sirB, that's a cool weapon, how can I get to use one?
Sir B: Well, this is an assault rail rifle, just look under weapons, then light weapons, then rank rail rifle to four.
Sir A: Thank you for your help.

Compare with
Sir A: Hey, sirB, that's a cool weapon, how can I get to use one?
Sir B: Well, this is a type 93-variant advanced assault rail carbine rifle meant for scout suits. You'll want to unlock the light suits, then go all the way right on the tree, then go ahead and unlock the entire main portion of the scout suit tree, once that's done, go into caldari scouts, look for the weapon tree on the bottom, then go ahead and go to the lower left part of that branch and you'll see the weapon section. It'll be the third after the "Caldari Scout Advanced Rail Weaponary skill"
Sir A: .... screw that. I guess I wasted ALL of my current SP since I spent it all in assault suits, and it won't help me one bit getting that cool weapon.




Also, I'm worried about CCP Z's flagrant disregard for the creation and destruction cycle of New Eden. It should be a legitimate gameplay worry for "Well, we could throw more money at this fight and maybe win it, but will it be worth the cost?"

CCP hire this man! everything but his opinion of capacitors is spot on.

DUST: progression from CCP Z was horrible... is he new to CCP GAMES? he suggest completely opposite of what makes EVE good. Skill tree is idea from hell. It will kill Legion, and make it ordinary MMO. EVE for me is the only MMO where I can be jack of all trades. Don't force me to not use shotgun on my heavy dropsuit, even if it's bad idea. Encourage me with skill bonus to use my Heavy weapon (and bonus to GEAR, like in EVE, and not in skills itself).

Also, I'm worried about CCP Z's flagrant disregard for the creation and destruction cycle of New Eden. It should be a legitimate gameplay worry for "Well, we could throw more money at this fight and maybe win it, but will it be worth the cost?"

I am beginning to wonder if you people watched the same presentation I did...

Free Suits:

I believe that Vell0cet's intended purpose was to address CCP Z "I donGÇÖt want anybody to play militia gear when youGÇÖre done with militia gear just because a drop suit is expensive." statement.
While making suits BPO can essentially let things remain the same, it did not seem that that is what CCP Z intended for it to do.

I myself do like the thought that expend a suit every time I do something stupid and die. I feel like it helps the lore.

Though on the other note of lore: suits, modules, equipment, weapons, everything you spawn in with is generated with resources on your MCC or CRU. So technically every time you spawn in, you're using the resource material. (Theory: Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

I am beginning to wonder if you people watched the same presentation I did...

Free Suits:
- Making the suit free was more of an identity decision, than a change to the Risk/Reward system.
- Weapons still cost ISK. Modules still cost ISK. Equipment still costs ISK.
- Even with free suits, people will still use Militia modules and possibly weapons to save ISK.
- The match making system is based on total meta counts. You may still want to use a Militia suit to reduce your meta count.

The only real change is that instead of running Proto Modules on a Standard suit, I will be running Militia Modules on at Proto suit, when I am grinding ISK.

Progression tree:
While you raise a point that CCP should consider, I suspect that any try that contained the Laser Rifle would also include the other infantry rifles. As long as there are options that fit that role easily accessible within the tree you are skilling into, you can adapt to balance changes. If you decide to switch from a Laser Rifle to a Shotgun, that is a complete change of role, so I donGÇÖt see a problem with it requiring more of a skill point investment. But, yes, the ability to adapt to balance changes is something CCP should consider when designing the progression.

Also, Militia items should be available for all weapons, models, and equipment, so you can try stuff out before skilling deep into a tree.
GǪ
Skill Tree:
- From what I saw the skill tree is just as deep as it was before. It is just organized in a different manner.

The New Game Enhancements update turned the gameGÇÖs original character progression into a class-based systemGǪBut what happened with Star Wars Galaxies should serve as a pretty clear lesson to the rest of the online gaming industry.

Cost of Gear:

Maybe stuff seems inexpensive from your perspective as a member of Dirt Nap Squad, but even with a positive KDR I loose ISK when running even Advanced Dropsuits or Militia tanks. In DUST if you are not a PC grade player, you canGÇÖt afford to run anything above a standard suit, so I donGÇÖt think your argument is valid. If prices were raised enough for them to hurt you, I would be stuck in Starter Fits.

Meta based Match Making depth:
Meta based Match Making means that if you want to get matched in the mid range you can have:
- Proto suit with Militia Modules, Standard equipment, Standard weapon.
- Militia suit, with Proto weapon, and Standard modules.
- Standard suit, Proto modules, Proto equipment, Standard weapon.
- Advanced suit, Advanced modules, Advanced equipment, Standard weapon
There would be plenty of diversity in the mid range. At the bottom end everything would be Militia, but that is what you want for the new guys. At the top end it would be all Proto, but that would be the point of the top end now wouldnGÇÖt it?

Meta based Match Making, why bother using expensive stuff?
- Currently you get more ISK at the end of the battle if you kill Proto suits than if you kill Militia suits. Presumably this would be the same in Legion. Hopefully CCP takes it a step farther and makes the rewards higher for higher meta level matches. Then if you can avoid dying, you can make more ISK running all Proto.
- As the Meta Level goes up the Risk increases, so the rewards should be higher as the Meta goes up too.

Match making on Gear vs Ability:
- With Gear parity you are fighting on an even playing field and it comes down to player skill. It is a lot less frustrating to get stomped because the other player is more skilled than you, than it is to get stomped because the other player has better gear than you (uneven playing field).
- Ability is much more difficult to measure, so match making based on ability is much less reliable.

CCP hire this man! everything but his opinion of capacitors is spot on.

Well, technically speaking we should be charged for our Clones as well... Those things donGÇÖt grow themselves.

The big problem is that weGÇÖre moving away from the way things work in EVE and more towards a much more traditional and linear class based progression.

...What if they removed skill tree bonuses?
Then BPOs would make sense. They'd be your permanent bonuses, in contrast to Dust's model where your bonuses come from the skill tree.
Functionally, it's almost identical, except that each suit would be a different set of bonuses. Which would level the playing field.
Not sure how I feel about that, but it makes sense.

The issue with suits being BPOs is that they cost nothing - the bonuses and skills are irrelevant to that.

Maybe you shouldn't have specifically asked for CCP Rouge, but anyone at CCP willing to look at our feedback.

I think this is something CCP Rouge should read.

TL;DR - Tears' Lake; Dreams Ruined

Seriously, BPOs are no different from skill bonuses. Are you crying about skill bonuses?

How are BPOs that are phyiscal (if virtual) items the same as skills that are intangible (if virtual) abilities.

Would you be saying the same thing if they make all vehicles BPOs too?

Moving to Project Legion General Discussions.

I see no issue with vehicle BPOs

you forgot the blue tag. Does it mean you didn't read it?

IGÇÖm very concerned that youGÇÖre taking the wrong lessons away from DUST and that Project Legion will fail as a result. As angry as I am about how this went down, I do want to see a deep, EVE-based MMOFPSRPG set in New Eden with true integration with EVE that persists for decades to come. The original vision for DUST is great, donGÇÖt loose sight of it. DonGÇÖt water it down, donGÇÖt make it shiny and shallow. Keep it deep and focus on improving rich, tactical gameplay. Learn from the failure of the Star Wars Galaxies relaunch that wanted to make the game more GÇ£accessibleGÇ¥ with the New Game Enhancement additions that killed the game. Sit down, and have a serious re-think of whether dumbing down the rich and successful systems in DUST is really the best thing for Project Legion.

Signed,
A concerned merc

No, generally any moderation action doesn't get a blue tag. I'm reading it (it's very long!) and I'll certainly be passing this thread about internally.

...some clever words...

This line here invalidates anything else you have said on the subhject of BPOs. gg

I like this idea. Might be worth making its own thread about.

(Also as an Amarr Assault player, even given infinite ISK I'd not use that suit; it's terribad. No sidearm = nothing to allow me to continue dealing DPS while my primary cools, and a RoF bonus is irrelevant to a weapon you can't max with your finger. More raw damage or better overheat rate would be better xD)

You seem to be under the assumption that turrets and hardeners come free with a BPO vehicle.

I agree to some extend with the OP. EVERYTHING in New Eden should have a price. EVERYTHING. Truthfully, I would love to see a long winded receipt when I die that helps me track my ISK efficiency.

Death: Severus Smith
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- 50,000 ISK : Amarr Sentinel Dropsuit
- 15,000 ISK : Boundless Heavy Machine Gun
- 5,000 ISK : T1 Submachine Gun
- 1,000 ISK : T1 Locus Grenade
- 10,000 ISK : 2x T1 Shield Extender
- 15,000 ISK : 3x T1 Armor Repairer
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- 5,000 ISK : Alpha Clone
- 500 ISK : Reanimation Fee
- 10,000 ISK : CONCORD Security Fee
- 1,000 ISK Applicable Taxes
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Fitted: 96,000 ISK
Fees: 16,500 ISK
Total: 112,500 ISK

The above would be pretty cool. You could track your ISK efficiency and know how much you lost. You just have to price modules / suits better than the current DUST iteration (and the player market will help fix that). One of the BIGGEST things I can think of is to move away from the idea of Militia -> Basic -> Advanced -> Prototype. EVE does it well.

Civilian = Crap that you never use unless you're new or being funny

Tech 1 = Generalist gear that is good and decently cheap

Tech 2 = Specialized gear that is amazing in it's niche but incredibly expensive

It's like the above example of a Rifter vs a Wolf. In almost all occasions the Wolf will beat the Rifter (all skills equal) but the Wold costs 20x the Rifter. But that's because the Wolf is specialized for PvP (hence "Assault Frigate").

- Go try to tackle in a Wolf - it'll be outperformed by the 20x cheaper RIfter.
- Go try to scan in a Wolf - it'll be outperformed by the 20x cheaper Rifter.
- Etc...

The Wolf is amazing at PvP but cannot do other roles like the Rifter can. Hence why the Rifter is a generalist "Tech 1" ship and the Wolf is a specialist "Tech 2" ship. How should this translate to Legion? Tech 1 suits should be generalists while Tech 2 are specialists. This preserves the sandbox / modular feel everyone likes about DUST without making the Tech 2 suit the new "must use, OP" proto suit.

Consider this example:

Templar (Amarr Tech 1 Medium Frame)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Price: 25,000 ISK each

Amarr Medium Frame skill bonus:
- 3% increased light weapon damage per level
- 5% reduction in weapon heat buildup per level

High: 1
Low: 4
Equipment: 1
Weapons: Light / Sidearm
Grenades: 1
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

This is a Tech 1 dropsuit for the Amarr. It favors laser weaponry with it's bonuses and has a decent slot layout allowing for a sidearm and equipment. This gives it the ability to restock ammo, or repair, or scan, or whatever. And the sidearm gives some additional flexibility.

Justicar (Amarr Tech 2 Medium Frame, Based on the Templar)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Price: 500,000 ISK each

Amarr Medium Frame skill bonus:
-3% increased light weapon damage per level
-5% reduction in weapon heat buildup per level

Assault Dropsuit skill bonus:
-5% increased armor plate efficacy per level
-10% reduction to armor plate speed penalty per level

Role Bonus:
-5% increased weapon RoF per level

High: 2
Low:4
Equipment:0
Weapons:Light
Grenades:1
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

This is a Tech 2 dropsuit for the Amarr and is basically the specialized Templar. It gains a huge weapon RoF bonus, a speed bonus, and more armor. However, it loses its equipment and sidearm. This means this suit cannot restock it's own ammo and must rely on other support suits to do so.

The Justicar is clearly the better "Assault" suit. It will decimate the Templar in 1 vs 1 combat. However, it cannot support other mercs, it cannot rearm itself, and it is 20x more expensive than the Templar. This provides balance. If you want to field a Tech 2 suit you need a reason to justify risking 20x more ISK and to bring some friends. Most people won't "Proto stomp" a public contract (that awards 300,000 ISK if won) in a 500,000 ISK suit (without fittings). And if they do then the matchmaker should pair them up with people with a comparable meta level.

In the end, everything should have a price. Even suits / clones. And I personally like the Tech 1 / Tech 2 system in EVE where I can spend less to get a decent item, or spend f***tons more the get a much better, albeit specialized, item. Losing a few 500,000 ISK suits to win a basic public contract makes no sense. But losing a few 500,000 ISK suits to defend my corporations multi-billion ISK asset on Planet X does.

Thanks for the like, I know the numbers are probably off but I was just trying to show a point.

I may make my own thread about this.

Thanks again.

this man, gj brother


my one objection, i dont feel that proto suit fits are to cheep right now. i use proto assault myself, and if i lose more than one a game, im not going to make any isk. period.

vehicle prices need to go up, but proto suit costs feel like their in a good place. what needs to be fixed is corps printing money off of PC.

Completely Agree the skill system and equipment progression Dust 514 has is in my opinion perfect.

The problem lies in the lack of PVE, as there is no way for noobs to get better equipment other than to get protostomped in pub matches.

Also, the massive amount of passive income District owners get. Complete lack of risk for reward. This meant district owners could simply roll-proto every battle without denting their wallets.

No, generally any moderation action doesn't get a blue tag. I'm reading it (it's very long!) and I'll certainly be passing this thread about internally.

@ the op - I love this thread but I especially love the 3rd post down in the thread and wholeheartedly agree!

I would love more commander / RTS elements in the game especially for the more 'endgame' type stuff. I would also love to see an end to passive incomes and instead make corps more reliant on their members for income (Taxation).

CCP has the plans or at least used to have plans to allow us to drop in turret installations and stuff, expand on this! That is a major area that could reap rewards!

Let me go into the weaknesses of DUST that you can hopefully learn from and improve on them. A huge problem with DUST is that ISK efficiency isnGÇÖt tracked and promoted as the most important stat. This is major low-hanging fruit that you havenGÇÖt pickedGÇöIt would be trivial to code. One of the major deterrents to the EVE equivalent of GÇ£protostompingGÇ¥ is that it will destroy your ISK efficiency stats and reflects poorly on your corp. Players are discouraged from running maxed-out fits through social engineering because it looks terrible on killmails. Adding this stat is critical, and it should be emphasized over any other stat in the game (especially K/D).

This. Always this.

In the GÇ£ProgressionGÇ¥ session at Fanfest CCP Z made a statement that really concerned me: When CCP Z said that, I thought to myself: GÇ£This guy really doesnGÇÖt understand what makes DUST 514 special.GÇ¥