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To CCP Rouge (An Open Letter)

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Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 1559	Posted - 2014.05.04 15:16:00 - [1] - Quote Warning: This is long, so print it off and read it on the flight to Shanghai or something. Dear CCP Rouge. First, I admit that I am angry and frustrated with the announcement about Project Legion being a separate product. I feel betrayed. You have asked for feedback, and so I have written a rational analysis of Project Legion based on what has been proposed thus far. This is objective feedback, not colored by emotion. I think there has been a serious miscalibration in the analysis of DUSTGÇÖs strengths and weaknesses that went into the planning for how to design Project LegionGÇÖs progression system. Nearly all MMOs have the serious challenge of creating a progression system that is compelling for GÇ£end-gameGÇ¥ veterans. Most fall into the trap of World of WarcraftGÇÖs GÇ£gear treadmillGÇ¥ system where the cool stuff you work for becomes obsolete as a better version is released several months/years later. EVE solved this problem with itGÇÖs skill tree, and DUST inherited that solution by being derived from it. In EVE, all ships are useful: your Rifter is still fun to use even after you unlock the Wolf. There are times when a cheap ship is better than an expensive one, and youGÇÖre forced to make those decisions about when you want to risk exponentially more expensive ships for linear power advantages every time you undock. ItGÇÖs part of the GÇ£secret sauceGÇ¥ that has made EVE the only MMO to grow every year since launch. The nature of the EVE skill system is also a huge component of why EVE has done so well. You gain linear improvement for exponential SP investment. This has several advantages: you can get into the basics of a role very quickly, but it takes a lot of time to truly excel in it. This encourages deep commitment, but allows a lot of player freedom and flexibility. YouGÇÖre never GÇ£doneGÇ¥ with EVEGÇÖs progression. DUST 514 has this advantage as well. Abandoning it is a catastrophic error in judgment. DUST has so many problems and can be such a chore to play in its current state, and yet you have tens of thousands of active players regularly logging in to earn their SP (despite its flaws). If there wasnGÇÖt the depth of the SP system, I honestly doubt most of them would play nearly as often (or even at all). That should tell you something about how powerful the SP system is for motivating players and the longevity the existing SP system creates. In the GÇ£ProgressionGÇ¥ session at Fanfest CCP Z made a statement that really concerned me: CCP Z wrote: So. The reasonGÇª one of the big problems I have is because itGÇÖs so expensive, people are actually not using [prototype suits], and we have really good people, really good players, and I know some people from CPM actually are doing that, that play militia gear. What the point? I donGÇÖt want that! I donGÇÖt want anybody to play militia gear when youGÇÖre done with militia gear just because a drop suit is expensive. You should be proud of, you know, having unlocked that drop suit and playing with that drop suit. When CCP Z said that, I thought to myself: GÇ£This guy really doesnGÇÖt understand what makes DUST 514 special.GÇ¥ What makes DUST special IS that a player with 50 million SP can still have a use for a militia drop suit. That ALL of those 2,000+ suits/items you have are actually useful and donGÇÖt become obsolete once you reach the next GÇ£level.GÇ¥ High SP players can squeeze higher meta modules into that militia suit and create great ISK efficient fits with it. ItGÇÖs incredibly gratifying to kill someone wearing a very expensive suit using a cheap one. The asymmetrical nature of DUST 514 is what makes the game compelling. There is supposed to be an economic ecosystem where you run cheap suits/fits at a disadvantage or grind PvE (in theory) to build ISK so you can buy better suits that give you an advantage. DUSTGÇÖs economy is broken because of the ISK faucet PC has become, not because of this modelGÇöwhich is excellent. This is a system that has both depth and longevity. Having suits follow a linear progression suit A < suit B < suit C gets stale once youGÇÖve maxed out your suit. And no, looking at your old suits stacked up in your quarters doesnGÇÖt fix this. The inevitable result is to introduce an expansion with suit D that everyone works towards, and then getGÇÖs bored with: i.e. the gear treadmill. People get exhausted with this kind of system and eventually move on to another game. All MMOGÇÖs with this approach to progression have declined in users over time. The only one that hasnGÇÖt is EVE, and it doesnGÇÖt use this approach. It is foolish to ignore this point. The proposed system makes it difficult to change directions if youGÇÖre deeply invested in something you donGÇÖt like. Under the system proposed you donGÇÖt unlock certain weapons until much deeper in the tree. As balancing nerfs/buffs come out (and theyGÇÖre unavoidable in a game of this nature) itGÇÖs going to make adjusting your character much more difficult. For example, when the laser rifle was changed with Uprising 1.0, it didnGÇÖt become playable until 1.4 nearly 6 months later. If you were specced into the suit with that role youGÇÖd be angry and frustrated because you feel GÇ£locked inGÇ¥ to a cookie-cutter GÇ£role-basedGÇ¥ (letGÇÖs be realGÇöits almost identical to class based) progression system. In the current system, you can quickly start a different weapon and move on, while waiting for your weapon of choice to get fixed. I think your proposed progression system will create a lot of unnecessary friction and frustration by limiting playerGÇÖs freedom for the questionable benefit of accessibility (which can be better addressed via the UI and tutorials). (Continued) Best PvE idea ever!
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 1559	Posted - 2014.05.04 15:17:00 - [2] - Quote Incentive for power should be balanced by the pain of grinding for ISK (via cheap fits in PvP or PvE). There will always be a strong desire to run the best possible stuff. This needs to be tempered by making the best suits and gear take a lot of player time and effort to acquire (by acquire, I donGÇÖt mean unlock once and have forever, I mean each death)GÇöeach death in top-of-the-line gear should really hurt. A big part of the proto stomping issue in DUST is that proto fits are MUCH too cheap, and vehicles are ridiculously cheap. A vehicle that can mow down mercs by the dozen should have a price that represents several hours of game time to acquire the ISK to buy. This segues into the flaws of gear-based matchmaking. Having asymmetry on the battlefield is what creates depth, tactics and intrigue. If all suits are fit with relatively similar meta gear, why bother using expensive stuff? In the current system, youGÇÖre trading ISK (which is really time/effort grinding in cheap fits/PvE) for an advantage. Your deaths are very meaningful to you because it represents a lot of effort. Remove the advantage and you remove the incentive to use expensive stuff. ThereGÇÖs no reason to fly a Wolf if flying a Rifter will suffice. Large EVE corps design their fleet doctrines around affordability. Under the proposed Project Legion progression system, matchmaking is balancing on the wrong attributes: gear instead of player talent/ability. New players need an extended academy mode (up to 5 mill SP) to prevent stomping and a phenomenal story-based tutorial. But after that, the matchmaker should focus on matching players on their ability as a player, not by gear. In other words, an exceptional FPS player who is new to Legion and has ripped through his fellow academy cadets would be better placed against players with higher SP and better gear than keeping him dominating the players within his gear pool. It yields closer and better matches than basing it on gear. I tried very hard to find something CCP Shanghai is getting right in your planning of the Project LegionGÇÖs progression system. It seems youGÇÖre trading a fair bit of depth for increasing accessibility. I donGÇÖt think this is necessary. You can have depth AND accessibility if you build the right UIs and invest the resources into making an amazing, story-based gameplay tutorial. EVEGÇÖs ISIS, and Mastery systems are excellent examples of how this can be done. Explore a suit/vehicle/role-based ISIS analogue for Project Legion that has the benefits of guiding new players in their role-based choices, without tossing out one of your greatest assets (the EVE-style skill tree). The EVE team didnGÇÖt have to re-architect the skill tree to accomplish ISIS (only minor revisions), and they retain the same 5-level skill system. I could easily picture an alternate UI option for the existing skill system that uses roles to aid decision-making (like ISIS). Combine this with the test range concept described later, and you have solved the accessibility issues without opening yourselves up to the pitfalls of a linear progression and the risks of a gear treadmill. I suspect that your proposed system may very well draw in more players, at least initially, but it will suffer the same fate as other MMOGÇÖs using more traditional skill progression systems, and players will get bored and burn out. I also have grave concerns about your target audience. It seems that youGÇÖre targeting a broader audience with Project Legion at the expense of the hardcore players who love the depth of the current system. I donGÇÖt think CCP Shanghai has the resources, money, or experience to compete directly with the top game producers/studios in the world as an accessible FPS game. ItGÇÖs much wiser to cater-to and expand the more niche market for a MMOFPSRPG with infinite depth and customization. There are countless other players like myself that hate other FPS games because theyGÇÖre simplistic and shallow: spawn, kill, die, respawn: repeat ad nauseum. If Project Legion could tap into and expand this market which has literally no competition, I think there is a much healthier LONG TERM future for Project Legion. Go head-to-head with shallow FPS games like COD, BF, PS2, Destiny etc. and I really donGÇÖt like your odds, youGÇÖre trying to punch WAY above your weight class. ItGÇÖs much wiser strategically, to cater to your strengths: drawing as much from the proven successes of EVEGÇÖs progression system as possible instead of pursuing failed models that lead to tedium. Let me go into the weaknesses of DUST that you can hopefully learn from and improve on them. A huge problem with DUST is that ISK efficiency isnGÇÖt tracked and promoted as the most important stat. This is major low-hanging fruit that you havenGÇÖt pickedGÇöIt would be trivial to code. One of the major deterrents to the EVE equivalent of GÇ£protostompingGÇ¥ is that it will destroy your ISK efficiency stats and reflects poorly on your corp. Players are discouraged from running maxed-out fits through social engineering because it looks terrible on killmails. Adding this stat is critical, and it should be emphasized over any other stat in the game (especially K/D). DUST is incomplete. I know itGÇÖs a game, like EVE thatGÇÖs never really GÇ£finished.GÇ¥ And I know you werenGÇÖt responsible for releasing DUST with so much content absent. Getting full racial parity should have been a much higher priority in DUSTGÇÖs development. I hope you plan to release the missing Amarr and Minmatar vehicles/turrets, as well as the missing heavy weapons for DUST. YouGÇÖre going to need them for Project LegionGÇÖs release on day 1, so those assets should be produced soon and released into DUST 514 to help balance them for Project Legion. You owe your players this much. No excuses. (Continued) Best PvE idea ever!
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 1559	Posted - 2014.05.04 15:17:00 - [3] - Quote Dust is unpolished. Yes the PS3 hardware is a huge limitation. We all agree. There are bugs like hanging on terrain, having to jump over a 2GÇ¥ curb, hit detection, and vanishing plasma cannon projectiles that shouldnGÇÖt still exist in a product released 12 months ago. After watching the keynote, I fear that youGÇÖre focusing on shiny graphical effects instead of gameplay. Project Legion should launch with mediocre graphics, huge battles that run amazingly well with fantastically smooth gameplay. Increase graphics IF AND ONLY IF gameplay is flawless in a 100+ player battle. No excuses. DUST isnGÇÖt struggling because itGÇÖs not pretty enough. Do however create awesome maps and environments. You donGÇÖt need crazy lighting effects and reflections. Building compelling maps with diverse alien vegetation, deep canyons, water, caves, jungles, forests, swamps, large ranges of elevation etc. Is much more important than polygon counts and glitz. Make these elements important to gameplay. Have the map designs create GÇ£organicGÇ¥ choke points and areas with tactical depth (e.g. a deep canyon with a bridge that needs to be defended, or crossed with dropships). You can keep this stuff with lower-resolutions at first, and only scale up if the gameplay isnGÇÖt affected. Sockets from every race are essential. As for the new player experience, there isnGÇÖt much of one for DUST. YouGÇÖre right to segregate new players from the start, but they need a fully interactive, story-based tutorial. It should be exciting, with intense action. YouGÇÖre making a free-to-play game, so think of the tutorial as the most important advertisement for Project Legion you will ever create. You only get one brief opportunity to GÇ£wowGÇ¥ your prospective customer (who is already invested enough to create an account and spend hours downloading your game), so make an impact, take them through all of the cool stuff in the game. The tutorial is your chance to GÇ£close the sale.GÇ¥ Have them use vehicles, reppers, uplinks, nano hives, switch weapons, suits, etc. Teach them the difference between armor and shields, and explain how different damage types are more/less effective against them. Walk them through the game like ordering the sampler platter appetizer, giving them a taste of everything. You should keep the same skill system, and make it even deeper. This isnGÇÖt whatGÇÖs holding back new players, just improve the interface and make the tutorial more rich. You need a test mode. You should be able to deploy to a personal instance of a map with infinite SP, and access to all gear/suits/vehicles/weapons that all cost 0 ISK. There should be static NPCGÇÖs you can approach and configure their suits/vehicles and skills. You should be able to call in friends to this mode as well with friendly fire enabled. Kills, deaths etc. have no effect on stats in this mode, you gain no SP. Give it a GÇ£TronGÇ¥ like skybox of pure black with a grid of console-text-green overhead just to emphasize this area isnGÇÖt GÇ£real.GÇ¥Having this available would be incredibly helpful (and should be added in addition to a SiSi test server). Players could use it for testing game mechanics, learning how to control vehicles, goofing around, training, developing tactics, deciding where to invest SP, etc. This needs to exist on day 1. No excuses. The economy is broken. ISK sinks and faucets are not balanced. DonGÇÖt make dropsuits into BPOs with linear progression. Almost every idea mentioned by CCP Z in the Progression session was terrible. Please reconsider. MCCGÇÖs and Warbarges should be major ISK sinks. Players in corps should be pumping ISK in to acquire these, not sitting back collecting weekly ISK payouts. PC sucks. Try to incorporate RTS elements with a battle commander(s) who deploys expensive corp assets to the field. This was in the original vision from long ago. It is a solid vision. It will create deep, tactical fights that will be a lot of fun to participate in. You should be able to fortify your assets and design your defense to protect your GÇ£sandcastleGÇ¥ (i.e. more ISK sinks). We donGÇÖt want it to work like PS2 though where you spend all day capping objectives only to go to sleep, wake up and have all of your work undone. There should be some sort of timer system (like in EVE) with strontium and shields or something to that effect, so fights happen on a big scale instead of perpetual ninja-hacking that makes fights feel pointless and that your efforts have no lasting or meaningful impact. DUST needs EWAR. Vehicles and suits NEED CAPACITORS!!! This is an additional stat that you can use to refine balance without directly affecting TTK/survivability. It would allow for vehicles to be very expensive, powerful assets with high survivability, that always risk being tackled and crippled (just like in EVE) to be slowly worn down and destroyed. ThatGÇÖs the proper way to balance vehicles vs. infantry. One thing I think you do have right is the sandbox concepts. I have a post from back in November that details a really cool way to implement PvE and link it to EVE exploration in a way that promotes cooperative gameplay between the two games. This would be incredibly fun and allow for betrayal. Please give it a read. There is a lot of positive community feedback on it and I think it would be a fantastic way to link Project Legion and EVE Online. (Continued) Best PvE idea ever!
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 1559	Posted - 2014.05.04 15:18:00 - [4] - Quote IGÇÖm very concerned that youGÇÖre taking the wrong lessons away from DUST and that Project Legion will fail as a result. As angry as I am about how this went down, I do want to see a deep, EVE-based MMOFPSRPG set in New Eden with true integration with EVE that persists for decades to come. The original vision for DUST is great, donGÇÖt loose sight of it. DonGÇÖt water it down, donGÇÖt make it shiny and shallow. Keep it deep and focus on improving rich, tactical gameplay. Learn from the failure of the Star Wars Galaxies relaunch that wanted to make the game more GÇ£accessibleGÇ¥ with the New Game Enhancement additions that killed the game. Sit down, and have a serious re-think of whether dumbing down the rich and successful systems in DUST is really the best thing for Project Legion. Signed, A concerned merc Best PvE idea ever!
The Noob Destroyer Pradox One Proficiency V. 691	Posted - 2014.05.04 15:19:00 - [5] - Quote cool story bro
Megan Steel DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 39	Posted - 2014.05.04 15:31:00 - [6] - Quote I wish they could read this and translate this ideas into legion... I was banned ...
knight of 6 SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1895	Posted - 2014.05.04 15:34:00 - [7] - Quote CCP hire this man! everything but his opinion of capacitors is spot on. Knight's genaric rant about capacitors wrote: no. vehicle combat is too fast for a capacitor to be a viable balancing tool, cool thingy/what have you. honestly I question how much time everyone who suggests this has spent in a vehicle(you aren't the first and undoubtedly wont be the last). being completely honest the module wheel is a sub optimal solution to having a larger number of mods than buttons. anyone who has spent any time in a vehicle has turned off mods accidentally or selected the wrong mod and this typically results in death or best case a severe disadvantage. it also obstructs the screen and inhibits combat. pulsing a rep is a common practice with a capacitor, for those unaware repairs/shield boosters take up a massive amount of cap per cycle so capsuleers switch them on and off regularly depending on how the fight is going and what other modules need to be on. can you imagine trying to pulse a rep while flying a dropship? or while in the middle of a tank battle? cap management in combat would be a nightmare. in eve with a couple of mouse clicks you lock onto and fire on a ship automatically you don't need to aim or fire and there is no cover. flying is largely taken out of the pilots hands as well, this frees up time and concentration to focus on cap management. not to mention the TTK in eve is very long so if you make a mistake it's not the end of the world. the module activation system is very simple and fast to use unlike dust's and doesn't interrupt damage output or flight. TL;DR no. Ko6 scout,
Kelestia Colvolian DUST'S Rouge Wedding 83	Posted - 2014.05.04 15:40:00 - [8] - Quote Great analysis. The only sad thing is that CCP will probably do almost everyting the opposite of all the rational ideas you've suggested.
Megan Steel DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 40	Posted - 2014.05.04 15:47:00 - [9] - Quote The graphics can be horrible... really ... I want massive battles... that have a meaning... just like in EVE ... I was banned ...
Unit-775 Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 50	Posted - 2014.05.04 15:51:00 - [10] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: The nature of the EVE skill system is also a huge component of why EVE has done so well. You gain linear improvement for exponential SP investment. This has several advantages: you can get into the basics of a role very quickly, but it takes a lot of time to truly excel in it. This encourages deep commitment, but allows a lot of player freedom and flexibility. YouGÇÖre never GÇ£doneGÇ¥ with EVEGÇÖs progression. DUST 514 has this advantage as well. Abandoning it is a catastrophic error in judgment. (Continued) I thought the same. i completely agree with your whole post, it reflects my concerns about the stuff CCP Z presented.

Kovinis Sparagas Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 305	Posted - 2014.05.04 16:48:00 - [11] - Quote I agree also, and could have told better myself. I will promote this if needed. DUST: progression from CCP Z was horrible... is he new to CCP GAMES? he suggest completely opposite of what makes EVE good. Skill tree is idea from hell. It will kill Legion, and make it ordinary MMO. EVE for me is the only MMO where I can be jack of all trades. Don't force me to not use shotgun on my heavy dropsuit, even if it's bad idea. Encourage me with skill bonus to use my Heavy weapon (and bonus to GEAR, like in EVE, and not in skills itself). Key word - Encourage, not force. This is sandbox, I'll do what ever I want. And I don't want to be proud of my gear. I want to be FEARED that if I go to that planet, I could loose my one month investment! I am player, and I know better what I want, and not what he thinks I want. I want fear, of my investment. As I said, agree with everything except a place where you have max SP. In every game where I can do it, I play just like 5 min, and get bored. Like... thats it? thats all I could get after 5 years grind? Don't do that. Also I'll add something from my self: to speed up development - copy-paste everything from EVE. for two reasons: 1) EVE is successful game for 11 years. Why reinvent the wheel? Use the same game design what made EVE the only game where subscription is growing. 2) better NPE and NP in general. When all games will be connected on PC, a player from one game could go to other. It will be more easer and accessible for him to play other game, when he learns the first one. You will not have to infest so much time to learn absolutely new mechanics Key word - don't reinvent the wheel I support EVE Legion, but the message was very badly delivered...
Summer Sault Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 75	Posted - 2014.05.04 17:53:00 - [12] - Quote MoAr LiKeS! Even if it's just for the effort! My like definitely isn't just for the effort though. Why isn't there a DEV tag on this? somebody @CCP jump on this and realize you need to communicate your vision as quickly and completely as possible. Good luck, A concerned merc (different one). Hello, Worlds!
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2135	Posted - 2014.05.04 18:21:00 - [13] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: CCP hire this man! everything but his opinion of capacitors is spot on. Knight's genaric rant about capacitors wrote: no. vehicle combat is too fast for a capacitor to be a viable balancing tool, cool thingy/what have you. honestly I question how much time everyone who suggests this has spent in a vehicle(you aren't the first and undoubtedly wont be the last). being completely honest the module wheel is a sub optimal solution to having a larger number of mods than buttons. anyone who has spent any time in a vehicle has turned off mods accidentally or selected the wrong mod and this typically results in death or best case a severe disadvantage. it also obstructs the screen and inhibits combat. pulsing a rep is a common practice with a capacitor, for those unaware repairs/shield boosters take up a massive amount of cap per cycle so capsuleers switch them on and off regularly depending on how the fight is going and what other modules need to be on. can you imagine trying to pulse a rep while flying a dropship? or while in the middle of a tank battle? cap management in combat would be a nightmare. in eve with a couple of mouse clicks you lock onto and fire on a ship automatically you don't need to aim or fire and there is no cover. flying is largely taken out of the pilots hands as well, this frees up time and concentration to focus on cap management. not to mention the TTK in eve is very long so if you make a mistake it's not the end of the world. the module activation system is very simple and fast to use unlike dust's and doesn't interrupt damage output or flight. TL;DR no. I've said the exact same thing. But people think it's just me. I'm glad someone else understands..... click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 1605	Posted - 2014.05.04 20:36:00 - [14] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: CCP hire this man! everything but his opinion of capacitors is spot on. Knight's genaric rant about capacitors wrote: no. vehicle combat is too fast for a capacitor to be a viable balancing tool, cool thingy/what have you. honestly I question how much time everyone who suggests this has spent in a vehicle(you aren't the first and undoubtedly wont be the last). being completely honest the module wheel is a sub optimal solution to having a larger number of mods than buttons. anyone who has spent any time in a vehicle has turned off mods accidentally or selected the wrong mod and this typically results in death or best case a severe disadvantage. it also obstructs the screen and inhibits combat. pulsing a rep is a common practice with a capacitor, for those unaware repairs/shield boosters take up a massive amount of cap per cycle so capsuleers switch them on and off regularly depending on how the fight is going and what other modules need to be on. can you imagine trying to pulse a rep while flying a dropship? or while in the middle of a tank battle? cap management in combat would be a nightmare. in eve with a couple of mouse clicks you lock onto and fire on a ship automatically you don't need to aim or fire and there is no cover. flying is largely taken out of the pilots hands as well, this frees up time and concentration to focus on cap management. not to mention the TTK in eve is very long so if you make a mistake it's not the end of the world. the module activation system is very simple and fast to use unlike dust's and doesn't interrupt damage output or flight. TL;DR no. I don't want to derail the discussion and turn it into a vehicle capacitor debate, but I do think if they're starting from scratch, vehicles could be made to be very powerful assets with long TTKs (similar to a frig v. frig fight) that are vulnerable to Ewar. Much of the UI concerns won't apply on the PC, and this would allow vehicles to be really expensive and powerful assets. I can imagine a LAV with a tracking disruptor turret "orbiting" a tank tackled with web drones while another player slowly wears down his shields and armor. That would be the kind of deep and interesting team-based approach to vehicles in Project Legion. Best PvE idea ever!
Silas Swakhammer GamersForChrist 411	Posted - 2014.05.04 20:49:00 - [15] - Quote Great post! I am also severely critical of the ideas CCP Z presented. Pineapples on pizza.
Kincate DUST University Ivy League 40	Posted - 2014.05.04 21:04:00 - [16] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: What makes DUST special IS that a player with 50 million SP can still have a use for a militia drop suit. That ALL of those 2,000+ suits/items you have are actually useful and donGÇÖt become obsolete once you reach the next GÇ£level.GÇ¥ High SP players can squeeze higher meta modules into that militia suit and create great ISK efficient fits with it. ItGÇÖs incredibly gratifying to kill someone wearing a very expensive suit using a cheap one. The asymmetrical nature of DUST 514 is what makes the game compelling. There is supposed to be an economic ecosystem where you run cheap suits/fits at a disadvantage or grind PvE (in theory) to build ISK so you can buy better suits that give you an advantage. DUSTGÇÖs economy is broken because of the ISK faucet PC has become, not because of this modelGÇöwhich is excellent. This is a system that has both depth and longevity. Having suits follow a linear progression suit A < suit B < suit C gets stale once youGÇÖve maxed out your suit. And no, looking at your old suits stacked up in your quarters doesnGÇÖt fix this. The inevitable result is to introduce an expansion with suit D that everyone works towards, and then getGÇÖs bored with: i.e. the gear treadmill. People get exhausted with this kind of system and eventually move on to another game. All MMOGÇÖs with this approach to progression have declined in users over time. The only one that hasnGÇÖt is EVE, and it doesnGÇÖt use this approach. It is foolish to ignore this point. (Continued) Overall I like the post however a quick counterpoint to this is the fact that if I take a wolf out for a spin and come across a rifter, skills of the pilots being equal, the wolf will win. Eve presents a solution to that, which is bring two rifters. Dust does not allow for that with its lobby format. The plan (As stated so far) is for Legion to make Dust more like eve in that respect, 1 for 1 militia gear should not be equal to proto gear, militia gear should be useful, but proto gear should also be profitable, which right now it is not. I mean for what you pay for a proto suit you make in one game. Unfortunetly most of us are not good enough to run an entire game and not be killed even with proto gear. So what CCP Z says is not all that far out of line.
boba's fetta Dead Man's Game 576	Posted - 2014.05.04 21:15:00 - [17] - Quote the skill system and the risk make this game what it is. without it youre just a mid range shooter. listen to the man he speaks sense.
Alena Ventrallis PAND3M0N1UM Top Men. 1261	Posted - 2014.05.04 21:30:00 - [18] - Quote slow clap Bravo, good sir. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 1621	Posted - 2014.05.04 23:07:00 - [19] - Quote Anyone at CCP read this? Best PvE idea ever!
Tectonic Fusion 1641	Posted - 2014.05.04 23:19:00 - [20] - Quote Pie. Ehem...*OBVIOUSER

Frame Halgorbor Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 5	Posted - 2014.05.05 09:33:00 - [21] - Quote I had a corp friend point something out yesterday DUST 514....... 5th month of 2014 You knew from the start when you would announce the death of dust You knew from the start your plans/death for Dust 514 May 5th month of 2014 Feck you, and you lies
knight of 6 SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1906	Posted - 2014.05.05 13:23:00 - [22] - Quote just gonna bump this cause caps aside I really do like it. Ko6 scout,
Gaurdian Satyr Glitched Connection 249	Posted - 2014.05.05 14:45:00 - [23] - Quote +1 on each post CCP makes me physically ill
Kev Crow Bragian Order Amarr Empire 50	Posted - 2014.05.05 14:53:00 - [24] - Quote Great post! Hope CCP reads this.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 3120	Posted - 2014.05.05 14:53:00 - [25] - Quote Solid analysis. I totally missed that quote about militia gear from Z. That's pure facepalm. Talk about having zero understanding of the game your own company makes. o7 I'm out. See you on the other side. psn: bobswerski
Shion Typhon Intara Direct Action Caldari State 627	Posted - 2014.05.05 15:04:00 - [26] - Quote I'm afraid that you have written a massive and detailed post which is completely and utterly wrong. You don't even understand how Dust progression is fundamentally different to EVE's much better system. If you get your wish and it appears many legion fans support you, then you are dooming Dust to the same imbalanced graveyard that killed Dust. You think Dust is "asymmetrical" but it isn't, it's just unbalanced. Go look at EVE's SP system and how it relates to ships and equipment. If you can come back here and explain how they are different to Dust then you will rewrite your own post without me having to tell you why.
Alexander G Dulhut Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 18	Posted - 2014.05.05 15:06:00 - [27] - Quote Regarding the SP and progression system I agree with the previous reply, I wasn-¦t able to connect them from what you elaborated on, BUT... the rest you wrote down here is music in my ears. Thanks.
Sirpidey Adtur Aloren Foundations 124	Posted - 2014.05.05 22:29:00 - [28] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: I'm afraid that you have written a massive and detailed post which is completely and utterly wrong. You don't even understand how Dust progression is fundamentally different to EVE's much better system. If you get your wish and it appears many legion fans support you, then you are dooming Dust to the same imbalanced graveyard that killed Dust. You think Dust is "asymmetrical" but it isn't, it's just unbalanced. Go look at EVE's SP system and how it relates to ships and equipment. If you can come back here and explain how they are different to Dust then you will rewrite your own post without me having to tell you why. Yes, EVE and Dust's skill trees are significantly different, for one, Nothing in dust has multiple pre-requisites. If anything, this is a sign that we should move even FURTHER away from the proposed Legion's skill tree, into something closer to EVE's, that's more inter-woven. [quote=Kincate] Overall I like the post however a quick counterpoint to this is the fact that if I take a wolf out for a spin and come across a rifter, skills of the pilots being equal, the wolf will win./quote] While yes, a wolf will almost always beat a rifter, all other things being equal, the wolf has other disadvantages over the rifter, that don't deal with price. IIRC, the rifter is faster and more agile, as well as has a significantly better cap recharge time. I'm worried about the dumbing down of the skill-tree. Here's a scene in my head. Sir A: Hey, sirB, that's a cool weapon, how can I get to use one? Sir B: Well, this is an assault rail rifle, just look under weapons, then light weapons, then rank rail rifle to four. Sir A: Thank you for your help. Compare with Sir A: Hey, sirB, that's a cool weapon, how can I get to use one? Sir B: Well, this is a type 93-variant advanced assault rail carbine rifle meant for scout suits. You'll want to unlock the light suits, then go all the way right on the tree, then go ahead and unlock the entire main portion of the scout suit tree, once that's done, go into caldari scouts, look for the weapon tree on the bottom, then go ahead and go to the lower left part of that branch and you'll see the weapon section. It'll be the third after the "Caldari Scout Advanced Rail Weaponary skill" Sir A: .... screw that. I guess I wasted ALL of my current SP since I spent it all in assault suits, and it won't help me one bit getting that cool weapon. Also, I'm worried about CCP Z's flagrant disregard for the creation and destruction cycle of New Eden. It should be a legitimate gameplay worry for "Well, we could throw more money at this fight and maybe win it, but will it be worth the cost?"
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 901	Posted - 2014.05.05 22:36:00 - [29] - Quote A must read for CCP. And where be all this legion info, I'm clearly not looking hard enough. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Sirpidey Adtur Aloren Foundations 124	Posted - 2014.05.05 22:39:00 - [30] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: A must read for CCP. And where be all this legion info, I'm clearly not looking hard enough. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vxhrGVv0NuQ#t=2146



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