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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Cai Mo
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
30
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Posted - 2014.05.07 04:30:00 -
[61] - Quote
Great posts overall, always agreed with a storyline NPE aproach, even if it's just to make the transition easier for new players coming from other games who are not familiar with the (harsh) realities in the New Eden universe.
Quote:The big problem is that weGÇÖre moving away from the way things work in EVE and more towards a much more traditional and linear class based progression.
As much as I hate to bring up Eve everytime when discussing game-design, that one-liner does summerizes my basic feeling about the presented plans. I would prefer to see dust/legion grow even more similar to the core philosophies and mechanics in New Eden (one universe, one war - one set of rules), yet they seem to go in the opposite direction :(
The dropsuit bpo comment made by CCP Z made me really wonder. Personally I fully dissagree that a 'free' bpo would make me more connected with my suit, or use my protosuits more if modules would be more expensive (as mentioned by CCP EyjoG, their chief economist). As long as the objective of a battle is to make money rather than winning I will use cost-efficient setups and not bring my best/most expensive setup everytime.
As far as matchmaking goes, by meta-level or otherwise, I don't understand why there has to be a matchmaking AI while we as players can do it better ourselves given the right tools. For example, why not have a list of available contracts with different (variable) payment values for each side, so we can pick for ourselves which contract to accept and side to fight for. Keeping the sandbox philosophy without forcing anyone, similar to the risk/reward ratios in the various security systems. More player-driven actions and less automated AI processes.
Finally to comment on the skill-progression, if any module can still be fitted on any suit as suggested, the 'new' tree will only be a bigger sp-sink imho. And while I somewhat agree that it is too easy to skill into all weapons as it is right now, the current plans are not the best solution. We do need more dependencies in the skill-tree though and get rid of those empty skills that do nothing but unlock another skill.
I hope the developers at ccp dust/legion take a look back on their initial vision for dust (first glimpse 2009) and truely build one universe where battles can take up to 19 hours, or at least as long as logistics can facilitate.
forum explorer, dust prospector and eve illuminati
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Tallen Ellecon
1895
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Posted - 2014.05.07 06:22:00 -
[62] - Quote
I'll bump it.
 
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
3132
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Posted - 2014.05.07 09:39:00 -
[63] - Quote
While I don't agree with everything you said (no to capacitors and dropsuit tiers do have to go), much of what is said in the OPs is exactly what I was thinking when I was watching the presentation.
All suits BPOs - no thanks; EVERYTHING should have a cost
Weapons and modules tied to suit trees - no thanks; EVERYTHING should be flexible
Meta-score based match making - no thanks; I want to be able to go up against stronger suits than mine and still try to take them down, given I play well enough
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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Sole Fenychs
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
417
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Posted - 2014.05.07 10:29:00 -
[64] - Quote
...What if they removed skill tree bonuses?
Then BPOs would make sense. They'd be your permanent bonuses, in contrast to Dust's model where your bonuses come from the skill tree.
Functionally, it's almost identical, except that each suit would be a different set of bonuses. Which would level the playing field.
Not sure how I feel about that, but it makes sense. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
3134
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Posted - 2014.05.07 10:33:00 -
[65] - Quote
Sole Fenychs wrote:...What if they removed skill tree bonuses?
Then BPOs would make sense. They'd be your permanent bonuses, in contrast to Dust's model where your bonuses come from the skill tree.
Functionally, it's almost identical, except that each suit would be a different set of bonuses. Which would level the playing field.
Not sure how I feel about that, but it makes sense.
The issue with suits being BPOs is that they cost nothing - the bonuses and skills are irrelevant to that.
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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Summer Sault
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
81
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Posted - 2014.05.07 11:35:00 -
[66] - Quote
Is it just me or does it seem that the DEV's have no idea how to put a dev tag on something a member of the community has put a lot of effort in?
How about a quick reply that states: Awesome what a lot of information and thoughts, we will definitely get to you on this!.
Just as an example...
Hello, Worlds!
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
468
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Posted - 2014.05.07 12:21:00 -
[67] - Quote
I doubt the suggestion of focusing on the gameplay before graphics will help anything because they are probably already iterating on a functional set of graphics, and could at any time just turn in the current textures and models. I doubt they are waiting on the art or graphics people at any point.
I want to believe them when they said CCP Shanghai has learned the Eve cluster architecture, and will develop Legion more quickly than Dust.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
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Denchlad 7
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
239
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:07:00 -
[68] - Quote
Bumping till blue/red tag actually replies.
I will be the only player to Prototype every single god damn weapon before Dust dies. I swear to it.
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Reaper Alim
highland marines
IMMORTAL REGIME
16
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:09:00 -
[69] - Quote
Take away all the isk that CCP gave out and the isk and gear that was giving via abusing PC by locking down districts, or a matter of fact take broken PC out and reset everyones isk to 0 then we can talk about makeing gear cost more then it is now. Why should you exploiters be the only ones to stack a team and use proto? |
Forlorn Destrier
2438
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:39:00 -
[70] - Quote
Pizza.
Chocolate.
Bacon.
This post.
See a pattern? Still waiting for blue tag and sticky. |
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Sole Fenychs
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
417
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:49:00 -
[71] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:
The issue with suits being BPOs is that they cost nothing - the bonuses and skills are irrelevant to that.
Are we still talking about arbitrary numbers in a fictional universe that is being simulated on a computer network?
Or did you suddenly decide that ISK is somehow a real currency?
It doesn't matter if the suits cost something or if they don't. If you run out of money, you still won't be able to equip them fully. Cheap fits will still be infinitely inferior to a fully outfitted suit.
I would be surprised if we didn't also get a higher number of item slots for exactly this reason, to weaken the relative inherent strength of suits. |
Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
469
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:19:00 -
[72] - Quote
Maybe you shouldn't have specifically asked for CCP Rouge, but anyone at CCP willing to look at our feedback.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
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Royce Kronos
Sanguis Defense Syndicate
168
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Posted - 2014.05.07 16:07:00 -
[73] - Quote
A bump for discussion.
I know you want to.
The future belongs to the few of us still willing to get our hands dirty.
SDSyn
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Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1869
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Posted - 2014.05.07 16:09:00 -
[74] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:Maybe you shouldn't have specifically asked for CCP Rouge, but anyone at CCP willing to look at our feedback.
I think this is something CCP Rouge should read.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
469
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Posted - 2014.05.07 17:05:00 -
[75] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:Luk Manag wrote:Maybe you shouldn't have specifically asked for CCP Rouge, but anyone at CCP willing to look at our feedback. I think this is something CCP Rouge should read.
Yeah, but he might be more of a delegator, along the lines of: "Sure, I'll have our community guy read the feedback and have him paint me a 'broad strokes' picture of how excited everyone is with my new vision of equality and accessibility."
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
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Dalmont Legrand
407
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Posted - 2014.05.07 17:11:00 -
[76] - Quote
TL;DR - Tears' Lake; Dreams Ruined
The best is yet to come
CPM1 Candidate
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
470
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Posted - 2014.05.07 19:28:00 -
[77] - Quote
Dalmont Legrand wrote:TL;DR - Tears' Lake; Dreams Ruined
Not really.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
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Cyrus Militani
Leon Conglomerate
45
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Posted - 2014.05.07 20:08:00 -
[78] - Quote
Vell0cet, your expressions of how things should be is perfect. I agree with you 100%.
CCP, please hire this guy! |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
3148
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Posted - 2014.05.08 10:29:00 -
[79] - Quote
Sole Fenychs wrote:Seriously, BPOs are no different from skill bonuses. Are you crying about skill bonuses?
How are BPOs that are phyiscal (if virtual) items the same as skills that are intangible (if virtual) abilities.
Would you be saying the same thing if they make all vehicles BPOs too?
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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Sole Fenychs
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
424
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Posted - 2014.05.08 11:08:00 -
[80] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Sole Fenychs wrote:Seriously, BPOs are no different from skill bonuses. Are you crying about skill bonuses? How are BPOs that are phyiscal (if virtual) items the same as skills that are intangible (if virtual) abilities. Would you be saying the same thing if they make all vehicles BPOs too?
BPOs aren't physical. They are visual.
You can see the BPOs. But there is no difference between "you permanently gain 200 armor and 500 shield, as well as three high and one low slot when you run Caldari Assault" vs "your shield is permanently raised by 25% and all modules you ever equip take up 25% less CPU/PG no matter what you do", except that the former is bound to BPOs which you can actually exchange, while the latter is a bonus that never goes away.
You can actually see which BPO an enemy has and which bonuses apply to them, which is superior to the pure skill tree bonuses. It simply merges the current visual information (race and size) with the skill tree and also adds a component of carefully adjusting your loadout due to none of your bonuses being global.
See it as all global bonuses turning into class bonuses.
I see no issue with vehicle BPOs. That would imo be perfect for bikes.
For all other vehicles, though, I would prefer the "be a mechanic" approach where each vehicle is expensive and carefully tuned. In a perfect world, each vehicle would be slightly different, causing you to bond emotionally to that one Gunnlogi that has the best stats for your equipment selection and going on a shooting spree if someone shoots it down. Imagine a tank driver who's so enraged about losing his baby that he sets out a bounty on your head.
However, that doesn't work on infantry. Infantry is simply too short-lived for that kind of experience. It's feasible to never lose a tank throughout multiple matches by carefully using active modules.
But good luck surviving even one match without deaths as infantry.
That's also why I dislike damage profiles for infantry, while I like them for vehicles - They add tactics to vehicles, because a tank that is caught in a bad matchup will be able to engage overdrive. Meanwhile, as infantry, you are forced to engage anyway in most situations because sprint is laughable, numbers of infantry players are far higher, you are extremely squishy and there are no active modules to save you, aside from the really crappy cloak.
Also, pilot suits would be BPOs. And I'd expect them to function as granting bonuses to vehicle operation. |
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CCP Logibro
C C P
C C P Alliance
7294
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Posted - 2014.05.08 11:33:00 -
[81] - Quote
Moving to Project Legion General Discussions.
CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites
(a¦á_a¦á)
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martinofski
Onsencaliss
351
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Posted - 2014.05.08 11:42:00 -
[82] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:Moving to Project Legion General Discussions.
you forgot the blue tag. Does it mean you didn't read it? |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
3148
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Posted - 2014.05.08 13:03:00 -
[83] - Quote
Sole Fenychs wrote:I see no issue with vehicle BPOs
This line here invalidates anything else you have said on the subhject of BPOs. gg
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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CCP Logibro
C C P
C C P Alliance
7313
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Posted - 2014.05.08 13:35:00 -
[84] - Quote
martinofski wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:Moving to Project Legion General Discussions. you forgot the blue tag. Does it mean you didn't read it?
No, generally any moderation action doesn't get a blue tag. I'm reading it (it's very long!) and I'll certainly be passing this thread about internally.
CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites
(a¦á_a¦á)
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Zaria Min Deir
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
643
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Posted - 2014.05.08 13:57:00 -
[85] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:IGÇÖm very concerned that youGÇÖre taking the wrong lessons away from DUST and that Project Legion will fail as a result. As angry as I am about how this went down, I do want to see a deep, EVE-based MMOFPSRPG set in New Eden with true integration with EVE that persists for decades to come. The original vision for DUST is great, donGÇÖt loose sight of it. DonGÇÖt water it down, donGÇÖt make it shiny and shallow. Keep it deep and focus on improving rich, tactical gameplay. Learn from the failure of the Star Wars Galaxies relaunch that wanted to make the game more GÇ£accessibleGÇ¥ with the New Game Enhancement additions that killed the game. Sit down, and have a serious re-think of whether dumbing down the rich and successful systems in DUST is really the best thing for Project Legion.
Signed,
A concerned merc
All the likes ever.
Have you considered installing the improved keyboard?
"Go Go Power Rangers!"
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Forlorn Destrier
2444
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Posted - 2014.05.08 14:09:00 -
[86] - Quote
CCP Logibro wrote:martinofski wrote:CCP Logibro wrote:Moving to Project Legion General Discussions. you forgot the blue tag. Does it mean you didn't read it? No, generally any moderation action doesn't get a blue tag. I'm reading it (it's very long!) and I'll certainly be passing this thread about internally.
Many thanks! This seems to be the consensus for what the players would like to see. |
Severus Smith
Caldari State
515
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Posted - 2014.05.08 14:12:00 -
[87] - Quote
I agree to some extend with the OP. EVERYTHING in New Eden should have a price. EVERYTHING. Truthfully, I would love to see a long winded receipt when I die that helps me track my ISK efficiency.
Death: Severus Smith
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- 50,000 ISK : Amarr Sentinel Dropsuit
- 15,000 ISK : Boundless Heavy Machine Gun
- 5,000 ISK : T1 Submachine Gun
- 1,000 ISK : T1 Locus Grenade
- 10,000 ISK : 2x T1 Shield Extender
- 15,000 ISK : 3x T1 Armor Repairer
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- 5,000 ISK : Alpha Clone
- 500 ISK : Reanimation Fee
- 10,000 ISK : CONCORD Security Fee
- 1,000 ISK Applicable Taxes
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Fitted: 96,000 ISK
Fees: 16,500 ISK
Total: 112,500 ISK
The above would be pretty cool. You could track your ISK efficiency and know how much you lost. You just have to price modules / suits better than the current DUST iteration (and the player market will help fix that). One of the BIGGEST things I can think of is to move away from the idea of Militia -> Basic -> Advanced -> Prototype. EVE does it well.
Civilian = Crap that you never use unless you're new or being funny
Tech 1 = Generalist gear that is good and decently cheap
Tech 2 = Specialized gear that is amazing in it's niche but incredibly expensive
It's like the above example of a Rifter vs a Wolf. In almost all occasions the Wolf will beat the Rifter (all skills equal) but the Wold costs 20x the Rifter. But that's because the Wolf is specialized for PvP (hence "Assault Frigate").
- Go try to tackle in a Wolf - it'll be outperformed by the 20x cheaper RIfter.
- Go try to scan in a Wolf - it'll be outperformed by the 20x cheaper Rifter.
- Etc...
The Wolf is amazing at PvP but cannot do other roles like the Rifter can. Hence why the Rifter is a generalist "Tech 1" ship and the Wolf is a specialist "Tech 2" ship. How should this translate to Legion? Tech 1 suits should be generalists while Tech 2 are specialists. This preserves the sandbox / modular feel everyone likes about DUST without making the Tech 2 suit the new "must use, OP" proto suit.
Consider this example:
Templar (Amarr Tech 1 Medium Frame)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Price: 25,000 ISK each
Amarr Medium Frame skill bonus:
- 3% increased light weapon damage per level
- 5% reduction in weapon heat buildup per level
High: 1
Low: 4
Equipment: 1
Weapons: Light / Sidearm
Grenades: 1
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
This is a Tech 1 dropsuit for the Amarr. It favors laser weaponry with it's bonuses and has a decent slot layout allowing for a sidearm and equipment. This gives it the ability to restock ammo, or repair, or scan, or whatever. And the sidearm gives some additional flexibility.
Justicar (Amarr Tech 2 Medium Frame, Based on the Templar)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Price: 500,000 ISK each
Amarr Medium Frame skill bonus:
-3% increased light weapon damage per level
-5% reduction in weapon heat buildup per level
Assault Dropsuit skill bonus:
-5% increased armor plate efficacy per level
-10% reduction to armor plate speed penalty per level
Role Bonus:
-5% increased weapon RoF per level
High: 2
Low:4
Equipment:0
Weapons:Light
Grenades:1
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
This is a Tech 2 dropsuit for the Amarr and is basically the specialized Templar. It gains a huge weapon RoF bonus, a speed bonus, and more armor. However, it loses its equipment and sidearm. This means this suit cannot restock it's own ammo and must rely on other support suits to do so.
The Justicar is clearly the better "Assault" suit. It will decimate the Templar in 1 vs 1 combat. However, it cannot support other mercs, it cannot rearm itself, and it is 20x more expensive than the Templar. This provides balance. If you want to field a Tech 2 suit you need a reason to justify risking 20x more ISK and to bring some friends. Most people won't "Proto stomp" a public contract (that awards 300,000 ISK if won) in a 500,000 ISK suit (without fittings). And if they do then the matchmaker should pair them up with people with a comparable meta level.
In the end, everything should have a price. Even suits / clones. And I personally like the Tech 1 / Tech 2 system in EVE where I can spend less to get a decent item, or spend f***tons more the get a much better, albeit specialized, item. Losing a few 500,000 ISK suits to win a basic public contract makes no sense. But losing a few 500,000 ISK suits to defend my corporations multi-billion ISK asset on Planet X does. |
Leeroy Gannarsein
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
25
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Posted - 2014.05.08 14:40:00 -
[88] - Quote
Severus Smith wrote:...some clever words...
I like this idea. Might be worth making its own thread about.
(Also as an Amarr Assault player, even given infinite ISK I'd not use that suit; it's terribad. No sidearm = nothing to allow me to continue dealing DPS while my primary cools, and a RoF bonus is irrelevant to a weapon you can't max with your finger. More raw damage or better overheat rate would be better xD)
MY ACTUAL NAME IS LORHAK
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Sole Fenychs
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
425
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Posted - 2014.05.08 14:58:00 -
[89] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Sole Fenychs wrote:I see no issue with vehicle BPOs This line here invalidates anything else you have said on the subhject of BPOs. gg
You seem to be under the assumption that turrets and hardeners come free with a BPO vehicle. |
Severus Smith
Caldari State
517
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Posted - 2014.05.08 15:17:00 -
[90] - Quote
Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:Severus Smith wrote:...some clever words... I like this idea. Might be worth making its own thread about. (Also as an Amarr Assault player, even given infinite ISK I'd not use that suit; it's terribad. No sidearm = nothing to allow me to continue dealing DPS while my primary cools, and a RoF bonus is irrelevant to a weapon you can't max with your finger. More raw damage or better overheat rate would be better xD) Thanks for the like, I know the numbers are probably off but I was just trying to show a point.
I may make my own thread about this.
Thanks again. |
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