Aiming better doesn't even matter, you guys can already super strafe to the point you're untrackable.

No one wants Unreal Tournament 514

Aiming better doesn't even matter, you guys can already super strafe to the point you're untrackable.

No one wants Unreal Tournament 514

If there was raw input, there would be no stopping M/K players.
I'm saying that as someone who spent the first YEARS of his FPS life playing counter strike.
The accuracy I can get with a DS3 + Aim assist is still no way near ot what I can get with a M/K.


So no to raw input, unless DS3 had auto aim to the head, because that's basically what I would do to you

If there was raw input, there would be no stopping M/K players.
I'm saying that as someone who spent the first YEARS of his FPS life playing counter strike.
The accuracy I can get with a DS3 + Aim assist is still no way near ot what I can get with a M/K.


So no to raw input, unless DS3 had auto aim to the head, because that's basically what I would do to you

Catmerc, we bassicly had raw input in chromosome and mouse users didn't excell over ds3, - per the leader boards- how do you explain that ? I get better accuracy with aim assist because my iron site barley moves away from the target even while straffing because of aim assist...


Raw input is only fair vs the current aim assist in fact the same can be said for AA.. Since AA has been implemented nothing is stopng DS3 users from walking all over mouse user just a flick of the thumb and its instant headshot. .

I'm not saying remove AA leave it the way it is but give mouse users chromosome/raw input back..

I can strafe quicker with DS3 all you have to do is wigglee left and right and aim assist does the rest for me...

This is coming from someone who has used a kb/m for years. Dust has forced me to use the ds3 because aim assist is easy mode and CCP has royally screwed up mouse aiming. ..

I tried M/K in chromo.
That was no where near a PC, I can tell you that for a fact.

It wasn't raw input, if it was I would tell.

KBM raw input would be great, but then it would become OP in the eyes of DS3 players. From what I've seen of the squad cup clips the overall tracking of players is, how should I put it nicely ... casual at best?

So by raw input you mean, "turn 360 degrees in a split second?"

So by raw input you mean, "turn 360 degrees in a split second?"

So by raw input you mean, "turn 360 degrees in a split second?"

I can already do that. That's not the issue here.

Mouse controls in this game are dictated by a "thumbstick emulation" scheme where the mouse acts like your thumb moving a joystick. This presents several problems: it makes aiming difficult because of input lag and extremely inconsistent sensitivity. In PC when framerate becomes unbearable it's especially noticeable because there's at least a 100-300 ms delay between mouse movement and camera movement.

That may not sound like a lot but in terms of competitive play it's about as good as playing with your elbows.

I am not sure where this lie started but it needs to end.

Thumbsticks work on acceleration. This means that as you move the stick to the right or left you accelerate in that direction and then you decelerate as you release the thumbstick.

The mouse, even in this game, works on precision. You move the mouse by a certain amount and it pertains to an amount of pixels that your camera moves. If the mouse in this game worked based off of acceleration you would need to continually move the mouse in order to rotate.

You must not be as good as you think with a kb/m then because I was surgical with the AR in chromosome.. Not to mention many others said the same thing about chromosome "It felt like damn near raw input"..

I hear this argument a lot and how could they complain when they have auto tracking aim assist.. I'm sure they will, but wouldn't the response be you have aim assist we don't ?

Go look up eagle eye, frag fx or any DS3 to mouse conversion kit.. It still emulates the DS3 with out the acceleration not to mention since CCP has handicapped the mouse you have these third party devices that do a better job along with allowing mouse users to utilize the OP aim assist...

Wow.... I had not seen those devices before. It is so freaking sad how people will do anything for a advantage (i.e. cheat) in a damn video game.

How in the world can you have a competitive game when they very basis of it, they method of input, is not equal from player to player? I mean there is a reason why they ban steroids in any sport worth anything.

TBH I don't have an answer for attempting to balance a mouse versus a controller. Since they operate on completely different principles (acceleration versus precision), I do not see a way to make them equal without seriously gimping one or the other.

Turn speed limits and momentum definitely make sense from a realism standpoint.... but then you make mouse and keyboard users unhappy because they like the unrealistic behavior they are used too (turn 180 degrees in a split second with a 100 kg weapon).

Then you have aim assist which to counteract the precision of a mouse and keyboard need to artificially increase the skill of the user. I mean if you were to do raw input mouse versus a controller I am sure aim assist would have to be to be turn so high that as long as you were facing your target you would be hitting it.

So what is the right answer? Gimp the mouse or make the controllers half man half AI?

So what is the right answer? Gimp the mouse or make the controllers half man half AI?

Wow.... I had not seen those devices before. It is so freaking sad how people will do anything for a advantage (i.e. cheat) in a damn video game.

How in the world can you have a competitive game when they very basis of it, they method of input, is not equal from player to player? I mean there is a reason why they ban steroids in any sport worth anything.

TBH I don't have an answer for attempting to balance a mouse versus a controller. Since they operate on completely different principles (acceleration versus precision), I do not see a way to make them equal without seriously gimping one or the other.

Turn speed limits and momentum definitely make sense from a realism standpoint.... but then you make mouse and keyboard users unhappy because they like the unrealistic behavior they are used too (turn 180 degrees in a split second with a 100 kg weapon).

Then you have aim assist which to counteract the precision of a mouse and keyboard need to artificially increase the skill of the user. I mean if you were to do raw input mouse versus a controller I am sure aim assist would have to be to be turn so high that as long as you were facing your target you would be hitting it.

So what is the right answer? Gimp the mouse or make the controllers half man half AI?

How is that "cheating?" Anyone can go out and buy a different controller or control mechanism. Hell I would hope that many do because the ones that come with the PS3 suck as they are designed for a child's hands! What about people that are physically disabled in some way? Are you gonna deny them some kind of different input device because you believe it to be cheating? They are not providing preferential treatment or and are not catering to one or the other or saying you must buy this to win. Only you guys are saying this.

I too use a KBM, however after the last fix to hit detection plus the AA addition, I've had to switch back to using a controller while waiting for the fragfx shark I ordered from splitfish to come in:

http://www.splitfish.com/index.php/en/products/fragfx-shark-ps3-v2013

Oh noes... that's pay to win! No it's not. By doing this it no way guarantees that I'll win anything. It only provides my hands with some of the ergonomic comfort that I'm seeking while still taking advantage of the AA benefits that CCP has coded into the game for EVERYONE to be able to use.

With regard to mouse getting some sort of limiting input delay, I'm not sure what it was, but I was definitely getting a delay with a controller for a long while during chromosome, and maybe into uprising 1.2. It could have largely been a result of what I found to be network latency, but it REALLY screwed up the ability to reliably use my mass driver, as I'd often spin just a hair too much and shoot the wall killing myself rather than strafe just outside of it to fire at the target.

With regard to the above posters reference to precision vs. acceleration, I see this as the biggest point. I think the idea of 'raw input' is a white elephant. What do you mean by raw input?

I honestly don't really get what x,000 dpi in mouse speed corresponds to. Could someone clarify? Are you saying that if you move your mouse 1 inch in one second, and that rotates your charachter 25% of the screen, raw input would imply that if you move 4x that speed then you would rotate 100% in the same time. Then theoretically, you could probably move your mouse 10x+ that speed spinning extremely fast...?

So what is the right answer? Gimp the mouse or make the controllers half man half AI?

Noone is stopping you go out and buy a 300$ Mechanical Keyboard....then find out its not the keyboard...

Catmerc, we bassicly had raw input in chromosome and mouse users didn't excell over ds3, - per the leader boards- how do you explain that ? I get better accuracy with aim assist because my iron site barley moves away from the target even while straffing because of aim assist...


Raw input is only fair vs the current aim assist in fact the same can be said for AA.. Since AA has been implemented nothing is stopng DS3 users from walking all over mouse user just a flick of the thumb and its instant headshot. .

I'm not saying remove AA leave it the way it is but give mouse users chromosome/raw input back..

Didn't the mouse and the DS3 have aim friction in Chromosome and early Uprising?

Not having friction anymore is what makes CQC horrible for mouse users (well for me anyway...).
At range the precision of the mouse can almost compete with aim assist but in CQC you don't stand a chance of keeping your aim on target.

Because you're the minority.
Like it or not, this is a console shooter, if DS3 is the weakest way to control this game is fail.

Do you guys truly believe that RAW input is no better then DS3?

Do you guys truly believe that with RAW input you will not have a huge advantage?

DS3 is better than M/KB for anything <10m in almost every scenario.

Please go tell that to Regnyum, Kalante Schifer, 13ear, LordChaos...name after name All DS3 users. seriously... and everyone of those guys where BETTER, IMO.... when mouse had raw input and the now aim assist wasn't in the game.

There is aiming with a DS3 like there was in chromosome... and then there is what we have now where it's not really based on aiming at all, or even helping... or even training wheel's for an inspiring FPS player... it's straight up toggled aim bot.

I find the balance between DS3 and keyboard/mouse good today. I remember how you needed keyboard/mouse pre Uprising to compete and now both have their advantages and disadvantages. Mouse users have precision on long range and very quick tracking speeds, keyboards users have godly adadada strafing, DS3 users have the cqc advantage and better movement capabilities due to analogues input.

Giving mouse/keyboard raw input will remove the only advantage ds3 users have and make mouse/keyboard the best input device as in previous builds. I used mouse in Chromosome and still use mouse today when forge gunning, sniping or needing quick precision aiming at longer distances. And it is still better for weapons that do not have AA at all distances like plasma canons and MD. DS3 finally have its place and can compete against the mouse/keyboard.

You should do as I and probably many others, have both input devices ready at hand and use DS3 if it is as good as you say within 10 meters and your mouse when you are engaging at longer distances.

EDIT: You mention all keyboard/mouse users will leave, that is exactly what happened to many DS3 users in protest over the advantage mouse/keyboards had, they left as they felt it was impossible to compete on equal terms. I still remember some of the old discussions on this subject, the only response from mouse/keyboards users war, "noobs", "HTFU", "harden up" etc

Please link me this "Protest" DS3 users had vs the Kb/M you're speaking of ? Was it in Chromosome when kb/m was damn near raw input, if so I must of been playing a different game ? The only compliant I can remrmber was kb/m having quicker turn speeds do to suit limitations (Even then the DS3 users excelled via the leaderboards) CCP attempted to fix turn speeds by removing suit restrictions for all... At the same time also handicapping kb/m users at the start of Uprising..

If you remember at the launch of Uprising DS3 users realized they couldn't aim because what little aim assist they had in Chromosome was gone.. Holy **** these forums were flooded with DS3 tears, because they weren't able to aim in CQC, after CCP busted out the riot gear the new and improved aim assist was born..

Sorry but you're incredibly bad if you think the DS3 only excels at CQC.. Dust is my first console shooter and with aim assist being the go to for competitive play I had to switch and Im able to pick up a DS3 and drop 30+ kill games... As where when I use the kb/m something that I've been extremely proficient with (in chromosome and outside of Dust) for the past 15yrs, I can't even track my target because like others have stated CCP has ruined the kb/m its like you constantly have a force (under water etc) fighting against your aim/fine movements. .

So please know what you're talking about before spreading wild accusations especially now adays, its pretty comical to read a DS3 users claim the current mouse settings are OP or even useable.. Especially when scrub DS3 users continuously get mudered on the field and assume it's kb/m they are going up against.. (not saying that's you but you sure sound like the type)

Well that's cool guys just wanted to know what you thought about it all.

I am more than happy for you guys to get RAW input, but only if the servers are split and M/KB guys only play against each other.

Other then that there is a reason that they are deliberately gimping your mouse...

Aim assist as it is now is more than competent enough to combat a pro KB/M user with raw input.

In fact, I would still give the edge to the DS3 with the exception of sniper rifles and forge guns, as they are basically the only weapons that do not benefit from aim assist. Mass driver doesn't matter because people with mass drivers can't aim to begin with.

DS3 is better than M/KB for anything <10m in almost every scenario. Aim assist compounded with bad framerates and awful mouse controls makes tracking targets at close ranges about as slippery as it can get. I tried it with a DS3 and it is SO much easier to track targets. I was initially puzzled as to why I seemed to be dying so fast but it really becomes evident when you make the switch from M/KB to DS3.

It's funny because so many people have made claims about M/KB superiority and that they don't belong. Sure we may get a slightly easier method of strafing but that's easily compensated for on the DS3 once you learn how. Something like a sticky reticle and aim tracking is not something that can be learned. It's provided by the game to make it easier for people who haven't learned yet to track targets.

Having raw input would not give us a "huge advantage". I fail to see how that would be the case. It would simply level the playing field by allowing mouse users to compensate for aim assist by having the game actually respond accordingly to the player's input and not be dictated by some awful control scheme.

Fact is we don't have raw input, and whatever they changed back in 1.4 to mouse controls only made things far worse.

A pro KBM user would **** all over the current DS3 + Aim assist.
Maybe below average KBM user.

You want to see toggled aim bot?
Go play COD or Battlefield or Halo (In case you wanted to compare to a tracking shooter).
Compared to those, Dust 514 has the softest aim assist ever.
You guys are seriously overblowing it out of proportion.

Wow, chill out there man, you don't have to get so defensive. You also completely missed my point. In order to have competetive gameplay, certain standards must be adhered to. By knowingly order the fragFX in order to utilize third party software (well firmware in the dongle) in conjunction with aim assits, you are in fact cheating. You are using specific hardware meant to circumvent restrictions made by CCP in order to game the system. How is this not cheating?

Aim assist (which is not that strong[see battlefield or COD]) is meant to allow acceleration based controllers to compete with precision controllers. What you are doing is bypassing CCP's balancing attempts by using a precision based controller with aim assist.

I love that "anyone can buy it" argument, it is so disingenuous. Allow me a corollary: anyone can go out and buy steroids, therefor all athletes should be able to use them.

As for your "competitive" argument, try telling that one to the huge alliances that crush the little corps in EVE online. Once they make battles in DUST result in larger and more meaningful consequences in EVE, you better believe that DUST corps/alliances backed/supported by huge EVE alliances will start a whole new level of stomping all over this game. I'm not talking just "gameplay" but also logistics, funding, spying, logging, coercion, diplomacy, market war, production blocking, transport blockading, and more... This game has only just begun to see some of the smaller things that can be done with it, but it's tied to a much larger universe of possibilities and all it takes is for someone to just open themselves up to them and take advantage of it. Boxing yourself into the notions of "fairplay", "competitive combat", and "right/wrong" will only get you even more frustrated than you already are.

Are you telling me there is no honour in New Eden?! WHAT?! I paid good money for E-Bushido and furthermore

Just so everyone ITT is aware: You must own some form of cheaty 3rd party controller to be in goonfeet. We regularly discuss which device guarantees the most face wrecking. Currently the fragfx shark holds favor, but eagle eye is an old favorite and it's not that far behind.

You want your raw input, fine. Give DS3 stick acceleration and customizable ADS sensitivity.
By acceleration i mean if i hold the stick left, it starts out slowly, allowing for precision. Then at about 25 degree turn it accelerates so that i can do those goddamned 180's you kb/m users are so proud of. Equality bitches.

Tl:dr raw input allows for CQC tracking, stick acceleration allows for DS3 to pull the CoD 180's that kb/m has already.

Are you telling me there is no honour in New Eden?! WHAT?! I paid good money for E-Bushido and furthermore

Just so everyone ITT is aware: You must own some form of cheaty 3rd party controller to be in goonfeet. We regularly discuss which device guarantees the most face wrecking. Currently the fragfx shark holds favor, but eagle eye is an old favorite and it's not that far behind.

You want your raw input, fine. Give DS3 stick acceleration and customizable ADS sensitivity.
By acceleration i mean if i hold the stick left, it starts out slowly, allowing for precision. Then at about 25 degree turn it accelerates so that i can do those goddamned 180's you kb/m users are so proud of. Equality bitches.

Tl:dr raw input allows for CQC tracking, stick acceleration allows for DS3 to pull the CoD 180's that kb/m has already.

BRZZTTT wrong. In sports they specifically disallow the drugs and state such. CCP has not disallowed 3rd party anything. They only say that you cannot gain profit off of it.

And I understand what you are saying about AA trying to "even things out" due to differing types of controls, but my point is I have to use a KBM because my hands cannot operate the dumb-ass controllers designed for little kids' hands. They cause me to cramp up and not want to play anymore.

So not a cheat, not even close. And you have no idea what level of "meta" CCP allows in their games if you believe that a simple little controller is "cheating".

As for your "competitive" argument, try telling that one to the huge alliances that crush the little corps in EVE online. Once they make battles in DUST result in larger and more meaningful consequences in EVE, you better believe that DUST corps/alliances backed/supported by huge EVE alliances will start a whole new level of stomping all over this game. I'm not talking just "gameplay" but also logistics, funding, spying, logging, coercion, diplomacy, market war, production blocking, transport blockading, and more... This game has only just begun to see some of the smaller things that can be done with it, but it's tied to a much larger universe of possibilities and all it takes is for someone to just open themselves up to them and take advantage of it. Boxing yourself into the notions of "fairplay", "competitive combat", and "right/wrong" will only get you even more frustrated than you already are.

If you wanna play Dust 514 with a mouse and keyboard get a PC lol !!! consoles use controllers, it's that simple.

Fair enough.

Hell you guys can have whatever you damn well please if CCP would just implement raw freaking input.

A pro KBM user would **** all over the current DS3 + Aim assist.
Maybe below average KBM user.

If you wanna play Dust 514 with a mouse and keyboard get a PC lol !!! consoles use controllers, it's that simple.

You want your raw input, fine. Give DS3 stick acceleration and customizable ADS sensitivity.
By acceleration i mean if i hold the stick left, it starts out slowly, allowing for precision. Then at about 25 degree turn it accelerates so that i can do those goddamned 180's you kb/m users are so proud of. Equality bitches.

Tl:dr raw input allows for CQC tracking, stick acceleration allows for DS3 to pull the CoD 180's that kb/m has already.

False and unproven speculation. You have no grounds from which to make that claim..

Irrelevant. Aim assist was not nearly as powerful in shadowrun, and movement was far slower in Halo 2 which gave KB/M the edge.

Dust has far faster movement, and far stronger aim assist. It is immune from the issues of its predecessors.

Actually, I'm pretty sure (It is possible I am incorrect though) that we /do/ have raw input enabled for Dust. It was disabled for the longest time, then enabled (or at least was supposed to be to the best of my knowledge) in Uprising 1.3

The lower DPI/Speed can sometimes be accounted for by people not changing their mouse settings in the PS3 settings itself, as it's defaulted to "slow" if memory serves.

I play with a KB/M and it took me quite a while to figure out how to configure my mouse so that it didn't feel like total garbage while playing Dust. The biggest improvement to precision for me was reducing my mouse's polling rate from 1000Hz to 125Hz. Anything above 125Hz seems to cause fast movements to get "dampened". I'm not sure if this is purely a Dust issue, as high polling rates also cause mouse control of the PS3 XMB to behave somewhat erratically too. As for latency, I've always assumed that it was a result of bad/inconsistent framerates, coupled with Dust 514's implementation of server-side hit detection.

I definitely agree that playing another FPS (on PC or console) after logging some hours in Dust feels like easy mode simply because you're no longer fighting the various input/framerate/hit detection issues with the game.

I checked around and looks like the ps3 polling rate is 100Hz and Xbox is 125Hz
either way when i set to 100Hz the mouse moves much faster which in theory it should have no impact on, so i assume you are correct

However after a few games like this the mouse stopped responding, i can still fire but in Dust there is no aim with the mouse now, still moves fine on the XMB

I have changed sensitivity down to 20 but thats the only other change

I have since set it to 125Hz Still the same issue, very odd its only in Dust, Will keep playing with setting see if i can get it back

I remember playing Shadowrun it had a stronger aim assist then dust. It even had a tech upgrade skill that increased aim assist further, you clearly never played it.

I thought you were arguing for KB/M.
So i don't understand your point about movement was far slower in Halo 2 which gave KB/M the edge.
If movement is faster it would give KB/M the edge because they strafe better.
How would it give KB/M the edge if it was slower too?

Actually, I'm pretty sure (It is possible I am incorrect though) that we /do/ have raw input enabled for Dust. It was disabled for the longest time, then enabled (or at least was supposed to be to the best of my knowledge) in Uprising 1.3

The lower DPI/Speed can sometimes be accounted for by people not changing their mouse settings in the PS3 settings itself, as it's defaulted to "slow" if memory serves.

Actually, I'm pretty sure (It is possible I am incorrect though) that we /do/ have raw input enabled for Dust. It was disabled for the longest time, then enabled (or at least was supposed to be to the best of my knowledge) in Uprising 1.3

The lower DPI/Speed can sometimes be accounted for by people not changing their mouse settings in the PS3 settings itself, as it's defaulted to "slow" if memory serves.

Maybe "RAW" is the incorrect term then.

What I'm noticing is acceleration(which we can't turn off or adjust), the ignoring of fine movements(particularly while sniping), and a general sensation of slipperiness while in close quarters (might be the acceleration).

Get the kbm players some love!!!

I'm tired of owning them in cqc cuz they can't track :P