|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
206
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 18:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
Funkmaster Whale wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:So by raw input you mean, "turn 360 degrees in a split second?" I can already do that. That's not the issue here. Mouse controls in this game are dictated by a "thumbstick emulation" scheme where the mouse acts like your thumb moving a joystick. This presents several problems: it makes aiming difficult because of input lag and extremely inconsistent sensitivity. In PC when framerate becomes unbearable it's especially noticeable because there's at least a 100-300 ms delay between mouse movement and camera movement. That may not sound like a lot but in terms of competitive play it's about as good as playing with your elbows.
I am not sure where this lie started but it needs to end.
Thumbsticks work on acceleration. This means that as you move the stick to the right or left you accelerate in that direction and then you decelerate as you release the thumbstick.
The mouse, even in this game, works on precision. You move the mouse by a certain amount and it pertains to an amount of pixels that your camera moves. If the mouse in this game worked based off of acceleration you would need to continually move the mouse in order to rotate.
an easy fix to Matchmaking
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
206
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 19:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
M McManus wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Funkmaster Whale wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:So by raw input you mean, "turn 360 degrees in a split second?" I can already do that. That's not the issue here. Mouse controls in this game are dictated by a "thumbstick emulation" scheme where the mouse acts like your thumb moving a joystick. This presents several problems: it makes aiming difficult because of input lag and extremely inconsistent sensitivity. In PC when framerate becomes unbearable it's especially noticeable because there's at least a 100-300 ms delay between mouse movement and camera movement. That may not sound like a lot but in terms of competitive play it's about as good as playing with your elbows. I am not sure where this lie started but it needs to end. Thumbsticks work on acceleration. This means that as you move the stick to the right or left you accelerate in that direction and then you decelerate as you release the thumbstick. The mouse, even in this game, works on precision. You move the mouse by a certain amount and it pertains to an amount of pixels that your camera moves. If the mouse in this game worked based off of acceleration you would need to continually move the mouse in order to rotate. Go look up eagle eye, frag fx or any DS3 to mouse conversion kit.. It still emulates the DS3 with out the acceleration not to mention since CCP has handicapped the mouse you have these third party devices that do a better job along with allowing mouse users to utilize the OP aim assist...
Wow.... I had not seen those devices before. It is so freaking sad how people will do anything for a advantage (i.e. cheat) in a damn video game.
How in the world can you have a competitive game when they very basis of it, they method of input, is not equal from player to player? I mean there is a reason why they ban steroids in any sport worth anything.
TBH I don't have an answer for attempting to balance a mouse versus a controller. Since they operate on completely different principles (acceleration versus precision), I do not see a way to make them equal without seriously gimping one or the other.
Turn speed limits and momentum definitely make sense from a realism standpoint.... but then you make mouse and keyboard users unhappy because they like the unrealistic behavior they are used too (turn 180 degrees in a split second with a 100 kg weapon).
Then you have aim assist which to counteract the precision of a mouse and keyboard need to artificially increase the skill of the user. I mean if you were to do raw input mouse versus a controller I am sure aim assist would have to be to be turn so high that as long as you were facing your target you would be hitting it.
So what is the right answer? Gimp the mouse or make the controllers half man half AI?
an easy fix to Matchmaking
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
208
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 20:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jadd Hatchen wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Wow.... I had not seen those devices before. It is so freaking sad how people will do anything for a advantage (i.e. cheat) in a damn video game.
How in the world can you have a competitive game when they very basis of it, they method of input, is not equal from player to player? I mean there is a reason why they ban steroids in any sport worth anything.
TBH I don't have an answer for attempting to balance a mouse versus a controller. Since they operate on completely different principles (acceleration versus precision), I do not see a way to make them equal without seriously gimping one or the other.
Turn speed limits and momentum definitely make sense from a realism standpoint.... but then you make mouse and keyboard users unhappy because they like the unrealistic behavior they are used too (turn 180 degrees in a split second with a 100 kg weapon).
Then you have aim assist which to counteract the precision of a mouse and keyboard need to artificially increase the skill of the user. I mean if you were to do raw input mouse versus a controller I am sure aim assist would have to be to be turn so high that as long as you were facing your target you would be hitting it.
So what is the right answer? Gimp the mouse or make the controllers half man half AI?
How is that "cheating?" Anyone can go out and buy a different controller or control mechanism. Hell I would hope that many do because the ones that come with the PS3 suck as they are designed for a child's hands! What about people that are physically disabled in some way? Are you gonna deny them some kind of different input device because you believe it to be cheating? They are not providing preferential treatment or and are not catering to one or the other or saying you must buy this to win. Only you guys are saying this. I too use a KBM, however after the last fix to hit detection plus the AA addition, I've had to switch back to using a controller while waiting for the fragfx shark I ordered from splitfish to come in: http://www.splitfish.com/index.php/en/products/fragfx-shark-ps3-v2013Oh noes... that's pay to win! No it's not. By doing this it no way guarantees that I'll win anything. It only provides my hands with some of the ergonomic comfort that I'm seeking while still taking advantage of the AA benefits that CCP has coded into the game for EVERYONE to be able to use.
Wow, chill out there man, you don't have to get so defensive. You also completely missed my point. In order to have competetive gameplay, certain standards must be adhered to. By knowingly order the fragFX in order to utilize third party software (well firmware in the dongle) in conjunction with aim assits, you are in fact cheating. You are using specific hardware meant to circumvent restrictions made by CCP in order to game the system. How is this not cheating?
Aim assist (which is not that strong[see battlefield or COD]) is meant to allow acceleration based controllers to compete with precision controllers. What you are doing is bypassing CCP's balancing attempts by using a precision based controller with aim assist.
I love that "anyone can buy it" argument, it is so disingenuous. Allow me a corollary: anyone can go out and buy steroids, therefor all athletes should be able to use them.
an easy fix to Matchmaking
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
209
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 20:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:With regard to mouse getting some sort of limiting input delay, I'm not sure what it was, but I was definitely getting a delay with a controller for a long while during chromosome, and maybe into uprising 1.2. It could have largely been a result of what I found to be network latency, but it REALLY screwed up the ability to reliably use my mass driver, as I'd often spin just a hair too much and shoot the wall killing myself rather than strafe just outside of it to fire at the target.
With regard to the above posters reference to precision vs. acceleration, I see this as the biggest point. I think the idea of 'raw input' is a white elephant. What do you mean by raw input?
I honestly don't really get what x,000 dpi in mouse speed corresponds to. Could someone clarify? Are you saying that if you move your mouse 1 inch in one second, and that rotates your charachter 25% of the screen, raw input would imply that if you move 4x that speed then you would rotate 100% in the same time. Then theoretically, you could probably move your mouse 10x+ that speed spinning extremely fast...?
DPI is dots per inch, it also relates directly to the mouse READING, along with the movement on screen. So that said, if you use a 1024x786 screen rez, and you having a 1000DPI mouse, it would 'technicly' take 1 inch to move from one side to the other.
stolen from here
an easy fix to Matchmaking
|
Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
218
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 22:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jadd Hatchen wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Wow, chill out there man, you don't have to get so defensive. You also completely missed my point. In order to have competetive gameplay, certain standards must be adhered to. By knowingly order the fragFX in order to utilize third party software (well firmware in the dongle) in conjunction with aim assits, you are in fact cheating. You are using specific hardware meant to circumvent restrictions made by CCP in order to game the system. How is this not cheating?
Aim assist (which is not that strong[see battlefield or COD]) is meant to allow acceleration based controllers to compete with precision controllers. What you are doing is bypassing CCP's balancing attempts by using a precision based controller with aim assist.
I love that "anyone can buy it" argument, it is so disingenuous. Allow me a corollary: anyone can go out and buy steroids, therefor all athletes should be able to use them. BRZZTTT wrong. In sports they specifically disallow the drugs and state such. CCP has not disallowed 3rd party anything. They only say that you cannot gain profit off of it. And I understand what you are saying about AA trying to "even things out" due to differing types of controls, but my point is I have to use a KBM because my hands cannot operate the dumb-ass controllers designed for little kids' hands. They cause me to cramp up and not want to play anymore. So not a cheat, not even close. And you have no idea what level of "meta" CCP allows in their games if you believe that a simple little controller is "cheating". As for your "competitive" argument, try telling that one to the huge alliances that crush the little corps in EVE online. Once they make battles in DUST result in larger and more meaningful consequences in EVE, you better believe that DUST corps/alliances backed/supported by huge EVE alliances will start a whole new level of stomping all over this game. I'm not talking just "gameplay" but also logistics, funding, spying, logging, coercion, diplomacy, market war, production blocking, transport blockading, and more... This game has only just begun to see some of the smaller things that can be done with it, but it's tied to a much larger universe of possibilities and all it takes is for someone to just open themselves up to them and take advantage of it. Boxing yourself into the notions of "fairplay", "competitive combat", and "right/wrong" will only get you even more frustrated than you already are.
I am not sure you even really understood what I wrote.
If you were using a usb mouse and keyboard, everything would be fine. The FragFX allows you to utilize the advantages of a mouse along with the advantages of the controller (you get precision control along with aim assist) by fooling the console into thinking you are using a controller.
This is a mechanical way to circumvent balancing efforts made by CCP(i.e. cheating.)
I played eve from 2005 til 2011, I know all about eve. Did you know CCP doesn't allow you to store rapid macros (like the ones used in the G9) for usage in game? They also do not allow automated mining or combat systems. CCP does not want you to use mechanics (i.e. software/firmware) to gain an advantage over others (Which is exactly what the FragFX does btw.)
Dust 514 EULA Section 6. 1. 2.
You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.
I am pretty sure that would include software used to combine two gameplay mechanics that CCP balances for separately. By combining the aim assists meant for acceleration based controllers, and the freedom of movement allowed by precision based controllers... you are indeed cheating.
an easy fix to Matchmaking
|
|
|
|