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1.7 worse for av or tankers?

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GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Public Disorder. 607	Posted - 2013.11.19 22:14:00 - [91] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: Oooh, someone's butthurt about Assault Mass Drivers denying an area. And you're right, without swarms to worry about, I can easily get elevation to use my weapon in optimal. Blues won't survive. They will be 2-shotted at worst by vehicles they can't touch. This change does nothing but reward 10+million SP players that are already done customizing their 1 suit to skill into another suit. Telling players "Skill into Heavies in order to be able to deal with AV before you skill into the stuff you really want" doesn't promote anything but grinding. By vehicles they can't touch? Swarms out range blasters, and missiles are not exactly the most precise weapons at range, so your statement is not borne out by the facts. People still have medium frame options. The just are not optimal. For that you need a heavy frame. So if you want to specialize as AV, go heavy. If you want an acceptable deterrent to vehicles, swarms and AV nades will do you just fine. Heaven forbid the medium frame not excel at everything. Mr. Hybrid Vayu
Alpha 443-6732 211	Posted - 2013.11.19 22:17:00 - [92] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: poison Diego wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: Get good at tanking before you complain about AV. There is always someone out there so naive.... my point here exactly that swarmlunchers dont need any skills, they lock on and shoot. but tankers have to have a lot of skills, trying to escape bloody swarms. about 4-6m sp goes into a descent tank, maybe 1m into an op av bastard. Recently my most liked post was countering this very point. I could just as easily say that a tanker can roll into a group of enemies and kill them all, as long as he can activate his reppers & get out when his HP gets low. Of course I'd only say that if I had no idea what I was talking about. You can say whatever you want... all that matters is who has the more supported and logical argument. AV =/= Completely dominate and render vehicles useless. AV = Counterpart of vehicles that combats vehicles.
Alpha 443-6732 211	Posted - 2013.11.19 22:19:00 - [93] - Quote 1st Lieutenant Tiberius wrote: skippy678 wrote: my proto AV fit costs 244 k isk. More than your tank prob. Tanks cost upwards of 800k, almost a Mil. I dont tank but I do reimburse my tankers, so I would know. The Vayus that I was running last night were costing me 2.4 mil a pop AV =/= Completely dominate and render vehicles useless. AV = Counterpart of vehicles that combats vehicles.
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz 510	Posted - 2013.11.19 22:31:00 - [94] - Quote GeneralButtNaked wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Oooh, someone's butthurt about Assault Mass Drivers denying an area. And you're right, without swarms to worry about, I can easily get elevation to use my weapon in optimal. Blues won't survive. They will be 2-shotted at worst by vehicles they can't touch. This change does nothing but reward 10+million SP players that are already done customizing their 1 suit to skill into another suit. Telling players "Skill into Heavies in order to be able to deal with AV before you skill into the stuff you really want" doesn't promote anything but grinding. By vehicles they can't touch? Swarms out range blasters, and missiles are not exactly the most precise weapons at range, so your statement is not borne out by the facts. People still have medium frame options. The just are not optimal. For that you need a heavy frame. So if you want to specialize as AV, go heavy. If you want an acceptable deterrent to vehicles, swarms and AV nades will do you just fine. Heaven forbid the medium frame not excel at everything. 175m lock with Standard swarm damage is trash and you know it. You can't honestly be saying Dropships are worried at all about Swarms in 1.7. Someone said before, the range nerf puts you in Infantry range vs any other vehicle, and Medium Frame AV suits auto-lose to standard Infantry. The Forge Gun was the best AV weapon available to Infantry in the game before the nerf, and it is after nerf. Players always skilled into Heavies for the Assault Forge if they really wanted to get rid of vehicles. No one is saying that other AV options have to outclass Forge Gunners, but they have to have the ability to win in optimal, not deter, or there will be no point in skilling into it. "Deter" only means that opposing team has a numerical advantage, especially if it takes more than 1 person to deter.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 182	Posted - 2013.11.19 22:32:00 - [95] - Quote I have some prototype AV mines, and if I lay out 6 of them I can sometimes get a passing LAV. They say they do 750 damage (same as the standard ones), which might be slightly more effective now relatively speaking (swarm damage nerf). I have also tried using all the different tiers together, laying out 6 proto, 5 advanced, and 4 standard AV mines, and despite all that lag-inducing clutter, I've watched takes drive right over them. It's just silly when I carpet the road with 15 AV mines, and just as silly to see tanks cruise right over them without taking much noticeable damage. With the tankers being asked to use more hit+run tactics, mines may be more tactically useful, but even with the raw hp nerf, I doubt my lag pile will actually stop a tank. AV mines should be buffed a lot, and the number of active mines limited 1 std, 2adv, and 3pro - because of lag, and because I think 3 AV mines should be something a tank should worry about. An AV mine should kill a Soma or Sica - two if it has extenders. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
Alpha 443-6732 211	Posted - 2013.11.19 22:33:00 - [96] - Quote Kane Fyea wrote: GeneralButtNaked wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Entire argument made obsolete by Aim Assisted ARs. Remind me when Forge Guns are accessible to Medium and Light Frames. Until then, they will be doing nothing to Dropships, and will be relying on Remote Explosives to take out other vehicles. Do AR rounds bend to hit their target? Why does a medium frame need a powerful, long range, tracking AV weapon? Why is that the way to go for people? Heavy suit should be the primary AV suit. It should have the strongest weapons, the best defenses, and the greatest ability to withstand a vehicular assault. The issue here seems to be that people want AV without having to spec out of their current fit. Ahh the stuggle of the medium frames. If they can't do everything as well or better than every other frame, they scream unfair. Don't worry Justin, I am sure you will still be able to find rooftops to mass drive off of. Because that is all pro. Please tell me why the heavy suit should be the primary AV unit. Give me a reasonable explanation other then "Because I said so". Uhhh, because there needs to be a reason to use it? Are you ***** ******? Do you not realize it makes trades to field better guns? Do you not understand? THERE ARE MORE FACTORS IN BALANCING OTHER THAN DAMAGE AND HEALTH AV =/= Completely dominate and render vehicles useless. AV = Counterpart of vehicles that combats vehicles.
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Public Disorder. 611	Posted - 2013.11.19 22:39:00 - [97] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: 175m lock with Standard swarm damage is trash and you know it. You can't honestly be saying Dropships are worried at all about Swarms in 1.7. Someone said before, the range nerf puts you in Infantry range vs any other vehicle, and Medium Frame AV suits auto-lose to standard Infantry. The Forge Gun was the best AV weapon available to Infantry in the game before the nerf, and it is after nerf. Players always skilled into Heavies for the Assault Forge if they really wanted to get rid of vehicles. No one is saying that other AV options have to outclass Forge Gunners, but they have to have the ability to win in optimal, not deter, or there will be no point in skilling into it. "Deter" only means that opposing team has a numerical advantage, especially if it takes more than 1 person to deter. No, I do not know that the range is insufficient, because I haven't played vs them yet. I also disagree that the FG is the best AV weapon right now. Currently, there is little reason to spec a FG unless you aim to be a heavy beyond just forging. Swarms do more damage, are longer range, and track to the target. They can also be equipped with more damage mods, can carry hives to resupply, and can jump better to avoid blaster fire. Additionally, they do not need direct line of sight to be fired and hit the target. Oh yeah, and you don't need to spec into another frame to use it. So I disagree with your position that the FG is the best AV choice right now. Thankfully, the FG will be the prime choice in 1.7, as it should be. Mr. Hybrid Vayu
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1165	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:02:00 - [98] - Quote GeneralButtNaked wrote: Atiim wrote: If you honestly believe that then Blasters and Missile turrets should do no damage to anything whatsoever.. They are stupid easy and even easier when you press R3. It does take skill. Until you can post a video of you soloing a good HAV with a good pilot, you will continue to be spitting baseless claims. I find it hilarious how you say AV is easy when HAVs are thg most easiest thing to do in the game. All you need is SP. Try again. All you need is SP? Absolutely not. Unless you want to be broke, with a bad K/D. You think anyone can just hop into a tank and throw out good numbers? Yes anyone can; my first time piloting an HAV made me go 23-12-0. Than explain why all tankers don't have ridiculously high K/D ratios. Because of the very thing you want removed, AV. Heck, CharCharOdell even made a thread about how she misses being able to go 30-0 with ease. I think it's called Tank Nostalgia? BTW, blaster turrets and missiles do not lock on, and they do not track. In no way do swarms take skill compared to tanking, in no way do swarms take skill relative to FG or PLC users. A Forge Gun is so much more easier to use than a Swarm that it's funny. A 1-2 second charge time, a travel time faster than any vehicle can react to (except Scout LAVs, those things are scary fast with nitrous mods), and the ability to kill infantry. It's like AR users who say MDs are easy mode. So you want me to dump 610k SP into swarms just to make you look stupid? No need, you do that every time you post. If I said right now that I had 0 SP invested into HAVs, you'd be the first one to say, "well you don't use tanks so HTFU and get good". You don't use swarm launchers yet think your able to make an educated valuable, and non-biased opinion about them? Yeah anything you say about SLs from this point is null and void. Also, I have more SP invested into HAVs then I do AV atm. But that gap is slowly closing.... Slowly..... Unless you want to pay for the clone pack for me to attack AE, and provide the ringers to tie up their infantry so I can go solo Bob, there is no valid way to satisfy your demands. Does it look like I have 36 million dollars to give to someone who is probably going to hit up Cakeman and say "yeah I'm doing that video demonstration that Atiim asked me to do, you mind bringing out a $h!t fit for me"? (It's not like he wouldn't do that if you paid him). My wallet total isn't even 36 Million ISK. And If I take money from the corp wallet then I have to pay it back. Not that I would anyway, because you are merely defending the worst of play styles because you are bad. If you could do anything else reasonably well, then you wouldn't be the standard bearer for scrub play. Or maybe your just wrong. I could easily say HTFU and GET GOOD to the other tankers here but unlike you and most people in the LOLTank Brigade, I defend my points with facts and logic. Not "lol yeah this is easy mode you need to HTFU and get good scrub" followed by your typical, "No I don't need proof at all why would I use proof to try to prove you wrong"? Keep telling yourself that swarming takes skill. Delusional people give me a good chuckle. I'm worried about you. It's not healthy to laugh at yourself like that. And once again, you say that as if HAV piloting was hard Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 4166	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:10:00 - [99] - Quote Atiim wrote: GeneralButtNaked wrote: Atiim wrote: If you honestly believe that then Blasters and Missile turrets should do no damage to anything whatsoever.. They are stupid easy and even easier when you press R3. It does take skill. Until you can post a video of you soloing a good HAV with a good pilot, you will continue to be spitting baseless claims. I find it hilarious how you say AV is easy when HAVs are thg most easiest thing to do in the game. All you need is SP. Try again. All you need is SP? Absolutely not. Unless you want to be broke, with a bad K/D. You think anyone can just hop into a tank and throw out good numbers? Yes anyone can; my first time piloting an HAV made me go 23-12-0. Than explain why all tankers don't have ridiculously high K/D ratios. Because of the very thing you want removed, AV. Heck, CharCharOdell even made a thread about how she misses being able to go 30-0 with ease. I think it's called Tank Nostalgia? BTW, blaster turrets and missiles do not lock on, and they do not track. In no way do swarms take skill compared to tanking, in no way do swarms take skill relative to FG or PLC users. A Forge Gun is so much more easier to use than a Swarm that it's funny. A 1-2 second charge time, a travel time faster than any vehicle can react to (except Scout LAVs, those things are scary fast with nitrous mods), and the ability to kill infantry. It's like AR users who say MDs are easy mode. So you want me to dump 610k SP into swarms just to make you look stupid? No need, you do that every time you post. If I said right now that I had 0 SP invested into HAVs, you'd be the first one to say, "well you don't use tanks so HTFU and get good". You don't use swarm launchers yet think your able to make an educated valuable, and non-biased opinion about them? Yeah anything you say about SLs from this point is null and void. Also, I have more SP invested into HAVs then I do AV atm. But that gap is slowly closing.... Slowly..... Unless you want to pay for the clone pack for me to attack AE, and provide the ringers to tie up their infantry so I can go solo Bob, there is no valid way to satisfy your demands. Does it look like I have 36 million dollars to give to someone who is probably going to hit up Cakeman and say "yeah I'm doing that video demonstration that Atiim asked me to do, you mind bringing out a $h!t fit for me"? (It's not like he wouldn't do that if you paid him). My wallet total isn't even 36 Million ISK. And If I take money from the corp wallet then I have to pay it back. Not that I would anyway, because you are merely defending the worst of play styles because you are bad. If you could do anything else reasonably well, then you wouldn't be the standard bearer for scrub play. Or maybe your just wrong. I could easily say HTFU and GET GOOD to the other tankers here but unlike you and most people in the LOLTank Brigade, I defend my points with facts and logic. Not "lol yeah this is easy mode you need to HTFU and get good scrub" followed by your typical, "No I don't need proof at all why would I use proof to try to prove you wrong"? Keep telling yourself that swarming takes skill. Delusional people give me a good chuckle. I'm worried about you. It's not healthy to laugh at yourself like that. And once again, you say that as if HAV piloting was hard However given your inclination alongside avid tankers like Void and Spkr to exaggerate..... your words are not really all that convincing knowing that you wish tanks to be utter jokes.... I don't think you get anything out of this argument, neither does the General here drop it since you cannot convince tankers to tank more nerfs and Av to get more buffs, consequently we cannot convince you that tanks deserve buffs and AV nerfs. "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 103	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:10:00 - [100] - Quote GeneralButtNaked wrote: -Swarms do more damage *Not against shields.* -Are longer range *That's debatable since swarms also go super slow and are easy to see* -Track to the target *Again, they're also really slow compared to the FG* -They can also be equipped with more damage mods *For now. Watch what you say, you're the kind of person who is going to be super mad when the Caldari heavy frame comes out* -Can carry hives to resupply *True* -Can jump better to avoid blaster fire *Speed is a larger factor than jumping. Jumping has never saved me against a tank* -They do not need direct line of sight to be fired and hit the target Yes they do. I've had swarms hit walls many times mostly because the tank hides behind a wall because swarms go so slow. Rockets have also hit walls because I don't have 70-¦ of open space. The FG can easily take advantage of small spaces. -Don't need to spec into another frame to use it. *True* The not logic bomb!

Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1166	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:11:00 - [101] - Quote GeneralButtNaked wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: 175m lock with Standard swarm damage is trash and you know it. You can't honestly be saying Dropships are worried at all about Swarms in 1.7. Someone said before, the range nerf puts you in Infantry range vs any other vehicle, and Medium Frame AV suits auto-lose to standard Infantry. The Forge Gun was the best AV weapon available to Infantry in the game before the nerf, and it is after nerf. Players always skilled into Heavies for the Assault Forge if they really wanted to get rid of vehicles. No one is saying that other AV options have to outclass Forge Gunners, but they have to have the ability to win in optimal, not deter, or there will be no point in skilling into it. "Deter" only means that opposing team has a numerical advantage, especially if it takes more than 1 person to deter. No, I do not know that the range is insufficient, because I haven't played vs them yet. I also disagree that the FG is the best AV weapon right now. Currently, there is little reason to spec a FG unless you aim to be a heavy beyond just forging. Swarms do more damage, are longer range, and track to the target. They can also be equipped with more damage mods, can carry hives to resupply, and can jump better to avoid blaster fire. Additionally, they do not need direct line of sight to be fired and hit the target. Oh yeah, and you don't need to spec into another frame to use it. So I disagree with your position that the FG is the best AV choice right now. Thankfully, the FG will be the prime choice in 1.7, as it should be. Forges are more than just AV. If I had a respec, then yeah I would pick FGs because I can forge gun snipe with them and if someone starts shooting me while I'm firing at the tank I actually have a chance of living. Swarms and Forge Guns do the exact same amount of damage. Maybe you should skill into them before making "assumptions" Yes, to lock on and fire at anything, we have to have a direct line of sight. That was patched in the same update that gave us the new maps. Forge Guns may not damage it at all, but they can go from MCC to MCC and still get hit markers. Swarms have a max of 400m if your lucky. You don't need to spec into another frame to use FGs either. There are MLT heavy suits. And everyone starts off with dropsuit command level 0. Meaning that they could easily become a heavy frame before being a medium frame. A swarm launcher has 2 clips worth of ammo. A forge gun has around 6. What's your point? A heavy may not be able to avoid blaster shots as well, but they have high HP and can easily survive to cover. A medium/light frame is dead when It gets ambushed by a blaster turret. Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 4166	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:18:00 - [102] - Quote Marlin Kirby wrote: GeneralButtNaked wrote: -Swarms do more damage *Not against shields.* -Are longer range *That's debatable since swarms also go super slow and are easy to see* -Track to the target *Again, they're also really slow compared to the FG* -They can also be equipped with more damage mods *For now. Watch what you say, you're the kind of person who is going to be super mad when the Caldari heavy frame comes out* -Can carry hives to resupply *True* -Can jump better to avoid blaster fire *Speed is a larger factor than jumping. Jumping has never saved me against a tank* -They do not need direct line of sight to be fired and hit the target Yes they do. I've had swarms hit walls many times mostly because the tank hides behind a wall because swarms go so slow. Rockets have also hit walls because I don't have 70-¦ of open space. The FG can easily take advantage of small spaces. -Don't need to spec into another frame to use it. *True* Did you just say swarms are easy to see? *Face palms brains through back of head...slumps to the floor blood pumping from the gaping wound in his face..... "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1166	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:21:00 - [103] - Quote True Adamance wrote: However given your inclination alongside avid tankers like Void and Spkr to exaggerate..... your words are not really all that convincing knowing that you wish tanks to be utter jokes.... I don't think you get anything out of this argument, neither does the General here drop it since you cannot convince tankers to tank more nerfs and Av to get more buffs, consequently we cannot convince you that tanks deserve buffs and AV nerfs. I have never once in my entire life as a DUST 514 player ever said that I want HAVs to be complete jokes. I've never said that they should be nerfed or anything of that nature. That is the exact opposite of my goal, which is complete balance between all classes within DUST 514. AV does not need a nerf. I've seen tankers highly capable of surviving multiple AV with ease. The people with the super strong tanks will always be able to hold a candle to my super strong AV. That's how it is and should be. What HAVs do need though is ADV and PRO tanks. That way we'd have a clear distinction of how to balance AV and Vehicles through tiers. And if you say that Enforcers take the place of PRO tanks then you are part of the problem. I'd facepalm myself into blindness. Exaggeration? Everything I've said can be tested and proven. I can't say the same about other people Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 4166	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:26:00 - [104] - Quote Atiim wrote: True Adamance wrote: However given your inclination alongside avid tankers like Void and Spkr to exaggerate..... your words are not really all that convincing knowing that you wish tanks to be utter jokes.... I don't think you get anything out of this argument, neither does the General here drop it since you cannot convince tankers to tank more nerfs and Av to get more buffs, consequently we cannot convince you that tanks deserve buffs and AV nerfs. I have never once in my entire life as a DUST 514 player ever said that I want HAVs to be complete jokes. I've never said that they should be nerfed or anything of that nature. That is the exact opposite of my goal, which is complete balance between all classes within DUST 514. AV does not need a nerf. I've seen tankers highly capable of surviving multiple AV with ease. The people with the super strong tanks will always be able to hold a candle to my super strong AV. That's how it is and should be. What HAVs do need though is ADV and PRO tanks. That way we'd have a clear distinction of how to balance AV and Vehicles through tiers. And if you say that Enforcers take the place of PRO tanks then you are part of the problem. I'd facepalm myself into blindness. Exaggeration? Everything I've said can be tested and proven. I can't say the same about other people Yet I can cite so many occasions where I was being hit by insanely damaging invisible swarms. All I think about AV is that fire and forget weapons should either be weak, or not fire and forget at all. "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 103	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:31:00 - [105] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Marlin Kirby wrote: GeneralButtNaked wrote: -Are longer range *That's debatable since swarms also go super slow and are easy to see* Did you just say swarms are easy to see? Face palms brains through back of head...slumps to the floor blood pumping from the gaping wound in his face..... Easier to see You're right. Unfair on my part. I don't use vehicles and the only time I fear AV is when I'm a passenger (usually a dropship). I clearly see missiles coming my way, however, this is usually because I'm on a turret of said dropship. I wish I could shoot at the buggers. But when it comes to FG vs dropships: Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu-, I don't stand a chance. The not logic bomb!
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 103	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:32:00 - [106] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Yet I can cite so many occasions where I was being hit by insanely damaging invisible swarms. ????? Is this a visual glitch? The not logic bomb!
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1166	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:35:00 - [107] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Atiim wrote: True Adamance wrote: However given your inclination alongside avid tankers like Void and Spkr to exaggerate..... your words are not really all that convincing knowing that you wish tanks to be utter jokes.... I don't think you get anything out of this argument, neither does the General here drop it since you cannot convince tankers to tank more nerfs and Av to get more buffs, consequently we cannot convince you that tanks deserve buffs and AV nerfs. I have never once in my entire life as a DUST 514 player ever said that I want HAVs to be complete jokes. I've never said that they should be nerfed or anything of that nature. That is the exact opposite of my goal, which is complete balance between all classes within DUST 514. AV does not need a nerf. I've seen tankers highly capable of surviving multiple AV with ease. The people with the super strong tanks will always be able to hold a candle to my super strong AV. That's how it is and should be. What HAVs do need though is ADV and PRO tanks. That way we'd have a clear distinction of how to balance AV and Vehicles through tiers. And if you say that Enforcers take the place of PRO tanks then you are part of the problem. I'd facepalm myself into blindness. Exaggeration? Everything I've said can be tested and proven. I can't say the same about other people Yet I can cite so many occasions where I was being hit by insanely damaging invisible swarms. All I think about AV is that fire and forget weapons should either be weak, or not fire and forget at all. Swarms are only fire and forget on maps like Manus Peak where you have a complete view of the battlefield. Not even then in most cases. If you decide to be a man and not AV from the redline then swarms are fire, crash into a wall, and then get gunned down by enemy infantry every time. I can cite many occasions of where my Swarms decided to glitch worse than giant MCC sized GEKs. Your point? Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Public Disorder. 612	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:35:00 - [108] - Quote Marlin Kirby wrote: GeneralButtNaked wrote: -Swarms do more damage *Not against shields.* -Are longer range *That's debatable since swarms also go super slow and are easy to see* -Track to the target *Again, they're also really slow compared to the FG* -They can also be equipped with more damage mods *For now. Watch what you say, you're the kind of person who is going to be super mad when the Caldari heavy frame comes out* -Can carry hives to resupply *True* -Can jump better to avoid blaster fire *Speed is a larger factor than jumping. Jumping has never saved me against a tank* -They do not need direct line of sight to be fired and hit the target Yes they do. I've had swarms hit walls many times mostly because the tank hides behind a wall because swarms go so slow. Rockets have also hit walls because I don't have 70-¦ of open space. The FG can easily take advantage of small spaces. -Don't need to spec into another frame to use it. *True* Swarms do more damage against armor tanks, the majority of tanks are armor. FG max range: 300m Swarm max range: 400m. Not debatable. Slow compared to the FG, sure, but they track to their target. Using an unreleased suit as a manner of saying swarms are not OP is asinine. If jumping has never saved you against a tank, that is because you are too far away for it too matter. When you are forging up close against a blaster, jumping is what saves you. Seeing many swarms take advantage of the lag to do the same. Just their jumps are bigger, and they have enough stamina to jump an extra time or two before they get immobile and easier to hit. My point about not needing direct line of sight to fire referred to being able to step out long enough to acquire a target, and then move back into cover to launch over it. Happens all the time. FG can't do that. They need direct LOS between themselves and the target if they want a hit. Mr. Hybrid Vayu
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1166	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:37:00 - [109] - Quote Marlin Kirby wrote: True Adamance wrote: Yet I can cite so many occasions where I was being hit by insanely damaging invisible swarms. ????? Is this a visual glitch? Yes, this is a glitch that happens every once and a while. Most tankers like to believe that AV should be nerfed because of this as opposed to just fixing the glitch. Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
Monkey MAC killer taxi company 1008	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:38:00 - [110] - Quote Somebody-Who's-name-I-Forgot wrote: Just because a stinger would do more damage in real life, does not make it good for game balance. And game balance is what we are after. If we start trying to apply realism to a game set in another galaxy, far in the future, it just gets absurd. I know, I know, like I said Just Sayin Same-Guy wrote: As to the rest, I want the heavy suit to be the primary AV role. I think FG should be the go to weapon for AV, followed by the PLC, then swarms and AV nades. Well you see that's the thing, so long as there are light av weapons, av is gonna be whoever is closer to Suppku Depot, hut removing them would be bad formthe game. But Im not argue, so how about you and I agree to disagree and wait to see what happens? The pen is mightier than the sword The gun is mightier than both Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1

True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 4167	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:39:00 - [111] - Quote Marlin Kirby wrote: True Adamance wrote: Marlin Kirby wrote: GeneralButtNaked wrote: -Are longer range *That's debatable since swarms also go super slow and are easy to see* Did you just say swarms are easy to see? Face palms brains through back of head...slumps to the floor blood pumping from the gaping wound in his face..... Easier to see You're right. Unfair on my part. I don't use vehicles and the only time I fear AV is when I'm a passenger (usually a dropship). I clearly see missiles coming my way, however, this is usually because I'm on a turret of said dropship. I wish I could shoot at the buggers. But when it comes to FG vs dropships: Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu-, I don't stand a chance. They are invisible most of the time, and the rare times you do see them they are phasing through solid objects. "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Public Disorder. 612	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:44:00 - [112] - Quote Atiim wrote: Swarms are only fire and forget on maps like Manus Peak where you have a complete view of the battlefield. Not even then in most cases. If you decide to be a man and not AV from the redline then swarms are fire, crash into a wall, and then get gunned down by enemy infantry every time. I can cite many occasions of where my Swarms decided to glitch worse than giant MCC sized GEKs. Your point? Bad maps for swarmers to use there full 400m range on currently: Ashland Fracture Road Border Gulch Maps that allow for 400m engagements without issue: Spine crescent Line harvest Manus peak Border Gulch Iron Delta Skim Junction The funny thing is that even on the "bad" swarm maps, there are still multiple positions where swarms can be used to their full range, or at the least at a range vastly further than the HAV can see them at. Saying swarms are not even fire and forget on manus peak shows your bias. Buff the PLC, and make you swarm scrubs earn your kills. Mr. Hybrid Vayu
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 1166	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:46:00 - [113] - Quote GeneralButtNaked wrote: Swarms do more damage against armor tanks, the majority of tanks are armor. FG max range: 300m Swarm max range: 400m. Not debatable. Slow compared to the FG, sure, but they track to their target. Using an unreleased suit as a manner of saying swarms are not OP is asinine. If jumping has never saved you against a tank, that is because you are too far away for it too matter. When you are forging up close against a blaster, jumping is what saves you. Seeing many swarms take advantage of the lag to do the same. Just their jumps are bigger, and they have enough stamina to jump an extra time or two before they get immobile and easier to hit. My point about not needing direct line of sight to fire referred to being able to step out long enough to acquire a target, and then move back into cover to launch over it. Happens all the time. FG can't do that. They need direct LOS between themselves and the target if they want a hit. QUIT LYING TO YOURSELF! Forge guns and Swarm Launchers have the same damage bonus to armor. And the fact that the majority of tanks are armor doesn't matter when they both have the same SP costs. That's like Gallente Assaults complaining about Mass Drivers or Caldari suits complaining about Flux Grenades. I'd love to see anyone try to get hit markers on a non-stationary tank while locking onto a vehicle at 400m. At that range the swarms will almost always crash into a wall or terrain. Forge Guns can charge while in cover, and then jump out of cover for half a second to fire at the tank. A Swarm has to jump out of cover keep a direct line of sight through the entire lock process and while firing. All while outside of cover to fire. A Forge Gun can kill dropsuits with splash damage, and a direct LOS is needed for a fraction of a second with a forge gun. You can charge behind cover, swarms cannot. And aiming is not hard at all on DS3. KB/M? LOL. Check out my corp's new website here :D -HAND
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 4167	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:48:00 - [114] - Quote Atiim wrote: True Adamance wrote: Atiim wrote: True Adamance wrote: However given your inclination alongside avid tankers like Void and Spkr to exaggerate..... your words are not really all that convincing knowing that you wish tanks to be utter jokes.... I don't think you get anything out of this argument, neither does the General here drop it since you cannot convince tankers to tank more nerfs and Av to get more buffs, consequently we cannot convince you that tanks deserve buffs and AV nerfs. I have never once in my entire life as a DUST 514 player ever said that I want HAVs to be complete jokes. I've never said that they should be nerfed or anything of that nature. That is the exact opposite of my goal, which is complete balance between all classes within DUST 514. AV does not need a nerf. I've seen tankers highly capable of surviving multiple AV with ease. The people with the super strong tanks will always be able to hold a candle to my super strong AV. That's how it is and should be. What HAVs do need though is ADV and PRO tanks. That way we'd have a clear distinction of how to balance AV and Vehicles through tiers. And if you say that Enforcers take the place of PRO tanks then you are part of the problem. I'd facepalm myself into blindness. Exaggeration? Everything I've said can be tested and proven. I can't say the same about other people Yet I can cite so many occasions where I was being hit by insanely damaging invisible swarms. All I think about AV is that fire and forget weapons should either be weak, or not fire and forget at all. Swarms are only fire and forget on maps like Manus Peak where you have a complete view of the battlefield. Not even then in most cases. If you decide to be a man and not AV from the redline then swarms are fire, crash into a wall, and then get gunned down by enemy infantry every time. I can cite many occasions of where my Swarms decided to glitch worse than giant MCC sized GEKs. Your point? That your anecdotal evidence is not more or less valuable or relevant to the discussion than mine is. That is my point. "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Public Disorder. 612	Posted - 2013.11.19 23:49:00 - [115] - Quote Atiim wrote: Marlin Kirby wrote: True Adamance wrote: Yet I can cite so many occasions where I was being hit by insanely damaging invisible swarms. ????? Is this a visual glitch? Yes, this is a glitch that happens every once and a while. Most tankers like to believe that AV should be nerfed because of this as opposed to just fixing the glitch. It doesn't happen once in awhile. It happens every single time the swarmer is outside of 150 m. It happens most of the time they are between 100-150. It happens occasionally closer than that. It is not a glitch, it is a design decision by CCP to reduce render distance to increase graphical fidelity. As a result, swarms NEEDED a nerf to not continue a paradigm where tankers can't see the swarms or the swarmer. Mr. Hybrid Vayu
Ripcord19981 KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND 263	Posted - 2013.11.20 00:05:00 - [116] - Quote poison Diego wrote: I want to ask you guys who ar saying that this swarm luncher nerf is to much, have you EVER stepped into a tank? let me tell you that the assault forgeguns are enough pain in the anus without you jumping ants running around my tank or sitting way over in the redline packing a 2100 damage punch 4 times with that silly little toy of yours... and then you trow these bloody tracking germain hand grenades, and of course they do about 1500 damage EACH. If you dont think that its unfair that you only need one ant to sneak up to a tank, put a good nanohive down, thow a few av grenades, then when the tank tries to make a run for it (unexpectedly) the ant pull out his way overpowered wiryrkomi swarm luncher and drains the last scraps of his armour. and there are 600k isk gone.. how mouch was the ant-¦s suit again? maybe 100k? You have to relize that you are not the only ones getting nerfed... Tankers are going to be nerfed to the dust to. Try to imagine the galliente logistics with 3 lows instead of 5... You would laugh right? oh WOW we get 400 more armour!! that just made my day! If you would give galliente logistics 40 more armour and take 2 low modules away then first we would hear people rage for real. Just please take all the low and high slots away ccp! appearantly we dont need them. Please just stop this bullshit that tanks are going to be overpowered. just think about it, I think that 600k-1m isk should be more op than one 100k suit though the aren-¦t. Im sorry, maybe I am the only one that thinks that? 600k isk? no wonder you get blown up. But i get what ur saying. I can only please one person per day. Today is not ur day, tomorrow doesn't look too bright either. Turkey sammich>taco
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz 510	Posted - 2013.11.20 00:09:00 - [117] - Quote GeneralButtNaked wrote: Atiim wrote: Marlin Kirby wrote: True Adamance wrote: Yet I can cite so many occasions where I was being hit by insanely damaging invisible swarms. ????? Is this a visual glitch? Yes, this is a glitch that happens every once and a while. Most tankers like to believe that AV should be nerfed because of this as opposed to just fixing the glitch. It doesn't happen once in awhile. It happens every single time the swarmer is outside of 150 m. It happens most of the time they are between 100-150. It happens occasionally closer than that. It is not a glitch, it is a design decision by CCP to reduce render distance to increase graphical fidelity. As a result, swarms NEEDED a nerf to not continue a paradigm where tankers can't see the swarms or the swarmer. Swarm users don't give a damn about tankers seeing the swarms all they care about is damage and range. And still, that's like complaining about not being able to see the Sniper when you get hit.
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 103	Posted - 2013.11.20 00:20:00 - [118] - Quote GeneralButtNaked wrote: Swarms do more damage against armor tanks, the majority of tanks are armor. *That's that tanker's fault* FG max range: 300m Swarm max range: 400m. Not debatable. Again, I'm the guy who thinks the range nerf was necessary, but too extreme. Slow compared to the FG, sure, but they track to their target. *Tracking is useless when the tank hides behind a wall.* Using an unreleased suit as a manner of saying swarms are not OP is asinine. *No, it means I'm looking at the long-term. In the long-haul, your point on damage mods is pointless.* If jumping has never saved you against a tank, that is because you are too far away for it too matter. When you are forging up close against a blaster, jumping is what saves you. Seeing many swarms take advantage of the lag to do the same. Just their jumps are bigger, and they have enough stamina to jump an extra time or two before they get immobile and easier to hit. *I was talking about short range here, and tanks always kill me at short range when I jump. If I'm in a tank's sights I'm done for unless I have conveniently close cover. I might get one swarm of.* My point about not needing direct line of sight to fire referred to being able to step out long enough to acquire a target, and then move back into cover to launch over it. Happens all the time. FG can't do that. They need direct LOS between themselves and the target if they want a hit. *So do SLs. I can't lock on through walls* The not logic bomb!
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 103	Posted - 2013.11.20 00:21:00 - [119] - Quote Atiim wrote: Forge guns and Swarm Launchers have the same damage bonus to armor. Ehhh, not true. It's +/-10% for Forgeguns and +/-20% for SL. Both are strong against armor and weak against shields. GeneralButtNaked wrote: Atiim wrote: Marlin Kirby wrote: True Adamance wrote: Yet I can cite so many occasions where I was being hit by insanely damaging invisible swarms. ????? Is this a visual glitch? Yes, this is a glitch that happens every once and a while. Most tankers like to believe that AV should be nerfed because of this as opposed to just fixing the glitch. It doesn't happen once in awhile. It happens every single time the swarmer is outside of 150 m. It happens most of the time they are between 100-150. It happens occasionally closer than that. It is not a glitch, it is a design decision by CCP to reduce render distance to increase graphical fidelity. As a result, swarms NEEDED a nerf to not continue a paradigm where tankers can't see the swarms or the swarmer. Wouldn't make sense if the driver/pilot knew that they were being tracked? You know, something almost every already game does. The not logic bomb!
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 4168	Posted - 2013.11.20 00:44:00 - [120] - Quote Marlin Kirby wrote: It is not a glitch, it is a design decision by CCP to reduce render distance to increase graphical fidelity. As a result, swarms NEEDED a nerf to not continue a paradigm where tankers can't see the swarms or the swarmer. 20000 years into the future you would think that vehicles would be able to use a type of technology to back track and determine the flight path of said auto locking swarms to determine the firing position. At least I should be able to see you and not just have you appear at 60m with swarmer in hand. Wouldn't make sense if the driver/pilot knew that they were being tracked? You know, something almost every already game does.[/quote] "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"



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