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Canis Ferox
Ultramarine Corp
1
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Posted - 2013.11.09 22:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
Gentlemen.
Let's get this all out in the open so we can look at the arguments clearly. I want everyone here to openly express how they feel about possessing an Heavy Attack Vehicle (HAV, tank) or being endlessly owned by tanks. About being stung by lazily flung AV grenades and about watching your swarm launcher missiles ping like popping candy off the armour of a seething enemy juggernaut.
And brothers, let me make clear my bias, please: I hate tanks. - I love watching them burn. I love to stand on a dark night out in the wastes with a smoking SL in my hand, listening to enemy clones fizz and crackle while they slow-roast in the pouring black, oily smoke of a tank's carcass; - a warm glow on my face and a cheer in my heart.
And why shouldn't I? I'm an infantryman, they mess my game up. I don't really mind them being there, it's just EveryThing I have to kill them is ineffective.
Let's start with turrets. Noone ever talks about turrets vs tanks, but they are there, on the battlefield. The only purpose I've seen them put to is collecting war points; which, by the way, should be cut out immediately.
Swarm Launchers (SL), bounce. They should lock on to heavies because at least they'd be worth using. I know that prototype (pt.) SL do actually kill tanks and tear apart dropships, but we're not talking about dropships (understand?).
Anti Vehicle (AV) grenades are effective against Baby tanks*. But Mummy tanks just get angry and Daddy tanks..** (YEs I am taking this analogy all the way!) ...Daddy tanks just laugh in the face of a combined AV, swarm launcher assault, turn around and stomp you!
[*Here I am referring to Militia HAV.. **Such as an armour-tanked Gunnlogi with arma-rep'er]
HAVs are not OP. High SP, super ISK tanks should not deal any less damage. They shouldnGÇÖt have less armour, I donGÇÖt think, they are tanks for heavenGÇÖs sake. But hereGÇÖs the point I am making: Anti Vehicle grenades and Swarm Launchers are ANTI-Tank. So they should be able to destroy tanks or do significant damage.
IF YOUR argument as an inexperience tank driver (I donGÇÖt hear any pros* complaining, do you?) is that GÇ£Anti VehicleGÇ¥ weapons, which force the user to abandon hopes at attacking or defending himself against other infantry, which highlight that players position and weaponry choice gloriously, which waste so much time in changing fits, avoiding enemies and chasing fast tanks around the map on foot and abandoned LAVsGǪ then your argument is plainly wrong sir and you should face the facts that proposed v1.7 nerfing of AV will certainly result in a surge of tank-filled matches and the total inability of anyone to deal with even the lowest tank drivers - who are the ones lobbying to turn Dust into one of those hacked matches HALO combat evolved that only drunk people played!*
*I am describing an idiot and if youGÇÖre wondering whether or not thatGÇÖs you then I canGÇÖt tell you that it is.
Discuss. |
Harpyja
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
750
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 22:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
I just want to point out that turrets are not useless in the right hands. I've been able to take out many HAVs using blaster and railgun turret installations. And not all of them were militia either. And almost all of the turrets I used were nowhere near the redlines and gave the enemy HAV a fighting chance of killing me.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
1466
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 22:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
What in the actual **** is wrong with you.........
'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever!
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
796
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Posted - 2013.11.09 22:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:What in the actual **** is wrong with you.........
Truth hurts doesn't it?
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
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Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
2326
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 22:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Theres some actual sense buried in that rambling
Now we wait to hear tankers defend pay to win
Im not drunk, the planet just happens to be especially wobbly today.
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Robocop Junior
The Surrogates Of War
328
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Posted - 2013.11.09 22:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:What in the actual **** is wrong with you.........
Lol thread wasn't worth reading til that part thanks. |
Beld Errmon
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
1099
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 22:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. |
Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
796
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 22:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
I kinda agree with you but at the same time I want to slap you in the face and ask "WTF is your problem"?
I hate using both things sometimes.
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
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Void Echo
2127
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 23:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:What in the actual **** is wrong with you......... Truth hurts doesn't it?
pilots are still the only thing keeping you from turning this game into another call of duty.
Youtube
Closed Beta Vet
Level 2.1 Forum Warrior
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Monkey MAC
killer taxi company
General Tso's Alliance
943
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 23:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
A tank discussion? Sure, I'll give you my view! I know there people who don't agree with it, who misconstrued it, and those who outright hate it, lookimg at you spike.
I believe that no vehicle, no matter it be a LAV, MAV, HAV, LAAV, MAAV or HAAV should as a standalone unit, should not be worth any more than its equivalent infantry unit!
To be clear 1tank without support should not be worth more than 1 heavy without support! This is best seen in the LDS, a dropship is primarily a troop transport and infantry/vehicle support!
Now a LDS not either repping a tank, transporting troops or supportting troops on the ground, is pretty useless, its weaponry isn't much help on a battlefield!
But if a dropship works with a squad, that squad has rapid transport, the squad can be in more places when they need to be, making them mkre effective. Vehicles should make your infantry better, it should not be a standalone elite unit!
The pen is mightier than the sword
The gun is mightier than both
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
796
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Posted - 2013.11.09 23:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Void Echo wrote:Atiim wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:What in the actual **** is wrong with you......... Truth hurts doesn't it? pilots are still the only thing keeping you from turning this game into another call of duty.
(Ok I'm fed up with this, please stop using excess line breaks in your posts.)
Really? I thought the mass diversity and the fact that everyone isn't a tryhard KD/R scrub is what kept this from becoming a CoD clone. You give yourself way too much credit.
And it's AV that prevents this from becoming TANK 514. And I expect a new release of "Wirykomi" 514 in the next update.
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
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True Adamance
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
4033
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Posted - 2013.11.09 23:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps.
"All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
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Fist Groinpunch
Goonfeet
Top Men.
140
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Posted - 2013.11.09 23:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
My problem with tanks is that they are a force multiplier for the one person driving them only.
It's the same as with a dropsuit. A highly skilled player in a starter fit is one thing. That same highly skilled player in a pimped out proto suit is quite another.
A highly skilled player in a tank? Downright invincible.
But CCP seems set on having tanks needing several players to take out. So while the tank driver is in full control of his entire tank, and will be even more in control once vehicle locks are in, AV players will have to rely on each other in order to take out the tank.
So while the grizzled veteran with 20k+ SP in tanks alone trundles along blowing up one red after another, completely effective and self-reliant and in full control of his death machine, AV players will have to somehow band together and coordinate to take him out. It's one thing when there are organized squads facing the tank driver. But it's totally another when it's a mishmash of NPC corp pubbies that don't squad up and only have that AV starter fit.
I remember tank drivers complaining about dumb pubbies in their turrets. Pubbies that would spend the entire round shooting at the MCC with the secondary turret, etc. Well, guess what, CCP says that these are the same pubbies I have to rely on when trying to take out a tank with my swarm launcher. That limits my ability to blow up the tank. I may be the best swarms operator in the game, but if none of my teammates choose to engage the tank, I won't be able to win. The tank driver doesn't have that problem. He is always effective. it's frustrating.
Not looking forward to 1.7 |
Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
796
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 23:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps.
And tanks are difficult?
Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now.
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
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Woka II
Ultramarine Corp
2
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Posted - 2013.11.09 23:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
Traitor, you owe us tankers for some of your wins and if my gunloggi wasn't there that madruger woulda ripped your suit to shreds. And btw keep in mind swarm = LIGHT av weapon their damage should not be on par or greater than the forge gun ( forge gun = HEAVY av weapon). This is like saying a 40mm grenade launcher should deal the same destruction as a 120mm howitzer ( not literally) . Tell you what why don't you get a madruger or a gunloggi and see what happen when you have 3 guys even with standard swarms team up on you. You know why tankers are unhappy? We have to deal with dropships, enemy installations, rooftop forge gunners, enemy tanks, orbitals ( we basically have a bullseye on our tanks) and infantrymen who aren't gonna be happy until they solo a tank with militia swarm, like you said " they're tanks for heaven's sake" and a "tank" should not be crippled by a single soldier. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company
General Tso's Alliance
943
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 23:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps. And tanks are difficult? Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now.
Atiim, I am not a fan of tanks, but I think the SL range nerf will be interesting, as for the damage nerf, tanks are being nerfed to, we will have to wait and try out for ourselves!
The pen is mightier than the sword
The gun is mightier than both
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Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
2329
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Posted - 2013.11.09 23:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
Woka II wrote:Traitor, you owe us tankers for some of your wins and if my gunloggi wasn't there that madruger woulda ripped your suit to shreds. And btw keep in mind swarm = LIGHT av weapon their damage should not be on par or greater than the forge gun ( forge gun = HEAVY av weapon). This is like saying a 40mm grenade launcher should deal the same destruction as a 120mm howitzer ( not literally) . Tell you what why don't you get a madruger or a gunloggi and see what happen when you have 3 guys even with standard swarms team up on you. You know why tankers are unhappy? We have to deal with dropships, enemy installations, rooftop forge gunners, enemy tanks, orbitals ( we basically have a bullseye on our tanks) and infantrymen who aren't gonna be happy until they solo a tank with militia swarm, like you said " they're tanks for heaven's sake" and a "tank" should not be crippled by a single soldier.
Lets ignore that everything you listed infantry players have to worry about as well in addition to every other weapon in the game
Lets ignore that there are many real world single man portable weapons capable of destroying a MBT since this is a game
But lets focus on "One person should not be able to destroy a tank"
Tell me why you think that, "Because its a tank" is not an answer
Is it because of the SP investment? How about the fact that getting a weapon, modules, core skills and a frame to carry all that has a comparable cost but with more empty SP sinks with no benefit
Is it the ISK cost? If so then please explain to me why you support pay to win
Im all ears
Im not drunk, the planet just happens to be especially wobbly today.
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
797
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Posted - 2013.11.09 23:26:00 -
[18] - Quote
Woka II wrote:Traitor, you owe us tankers for some of your wins and if my gunloggi wasn't there that madruger woulda ripped your suit to shreds. And btw keep in mind swarm = LIGHT av weapon their damage should not be on par or greater than the forge gun ( forge gun = HEAVY av weapon). This is like saying a 40mm grenade launcher should deal the same destruction as a 120mm howitzer ( not literally) . Tell you what why don't you get a madruger or a gunloggi and see what happen when you have 3 guys even with standard swarms team up on you. You know why tankers are unhappy? We have to deal with dropships, enemy installations, rooftop forge gunners, enemy tanks, orbitals ( we basically have a bullseye on our tanks) and infantrymen who aren't gonna be happy until they solo a tank with militia swarm, like you said " they're tanks for heaven's sake" and a "tank" should not be crippled by a single soldier.
Welcome to New Eden, where technology has evolved to allow Forge Guns to be equal to Swarm Launchers. By that same logi, we should re-do drop uplinks, as a PRO drop uplink shouldn't have the same capabilities as a CRU.
My end goal is complete balance between the two. Problem is there are some tankers who want AV to be useless. I bet my life that no-one on this entire forum heck even CPMs and DEVs could post a link to a thread where I've said that I want vehicles removed from the game completely.
A forge gun should be equal to a swarm launcher, that's called balance.
And BTW, you owe AV for some of those win because if we didn't destroy those tanks, you would have gone pop! (Like most crappy tankers who think that simply driving a Madrugar should grant you god-like power and the ability to lock entire squads out of combat),
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
797
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 23:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps. And tanks are difficult? Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now. Atiim, I am not a fan of tanks, but I think the SL range nerf will be interesting, as for the damage nerf, tanks are being nerfed to, we will have to wait and try out for ourselves!
Your right, SLs are getting a range nerf. Not saying that 400m was okay, but at 175m max range any dropship pilot will be invincible to SL users if they fly high enough.
Damage nerf is okay, but what about PRO and ADV tanks? What then.
I'm not hating or trying to bag on you, but I think that some of the AV nerfs were ridiculously stupid.
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
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Cosgar
ParagonX
7542
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Posted - 2013.11.09 23:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vehicles have been through a lot over several builds. HAV a heart man.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Monkey MAC
killer taxi company
General Tso's Alliance
945
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Posted - 2013.11.09 23:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps. And tanks are difficult? Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now. Atiim, I am not a fan of tanks, but I think the SL range nerf will be interesting, as for the damage nerf, tanks are being nerfed to, we will have to wait and try out for ourselves! Your right, SLs are getting a range nerf. Not saying that 400m was okay, but at 175m max range any dropship pilot will be invincible to SL users if they fly high enough. Damage nerf is okay, but what about PRO and ADV tanks? What then. I'm not hating or trying to bag on you, but I think that some of the AV nerfs were ridiculously stupid.
Well you see I never saw the SL as much of an AA weapon, considering the dropships inability to dodge, counteract or even retort, it seemed a bit unfair, but no the swarm launcher is now an immediate theatre av weapon. So weaker tanks don't have to worry about every crevice.
What you will see is more commando units in squads to deal with immediate av threats, while FG units will Rock up at vehicle chokepoints gorilla warfare style! This rework is going to cause a monumental shift in how infantry react to vehicles, and vice versa, I just hope its for the better of REAL tankers and infantry!
The pen is mightier than the sword
The gun is mightier than both
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Woka II
Ultramarine Corp
2
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Posted - 2013.11.09 23:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Woka II wrote:Traitor, you owe us tankers for some of your wins and if my gunloggi wasn't there that madruger woulda ripped your suit to shreds. And btw keep in mind swarm = LIGHT av weapon their damage should not be on par or greater than the forge gun ( forge gun = HEAVY av weapon). This is like saying a 40mm grenade launcher should deal the same destruction as a 120mm howitzer ( not literally) . Tell you what why don't you get a madruger or a gunloggi and see what happen when you have 3 guys even with standard swarms team up on you. You know why tankers are unhappy? We have to deal with dropships, enemy installations, rooftop forge gunners, enemy tanks, orbitals ( we basically have a bullseye on our tanks) and infantrymen who aren't gonna be happy until they solo a tank with militia swarm, like you said " they're tanks for heaven's sake" and a "tank" should not be crippled by a single soldier. Welcome to New Eden, where technology has evolved to allow Forge Guns to be equal to Swarm Launchers. By that same logi, we should re-do drop uplinks, as a PRO drop uplink shouldn't have the same capabilities as a CRU. My end goal is complete balance between the two. Problem is there are some tankers who want AV to be useless. I bet my life that no-one on this entire forum heck even CPMs and DEVs could post a link to a thread where I've said that I want vehicles removed from the game completely. A forge gun should be equal to a swarm launcher, that's called balance. And BTW, you owe AV for some of those win because if we didn't destroy those tanks, you would have gone pop! (Like most crappy tankers who think that simply driving a Madrugar should grant you god-like power and the ability to lock entire squads out of combat),
To my defense I run gunloggis, against armor tanks and av they're pretty easy to get killed in so I don't think it grants me god like power, it just makes me think smarter than the ****** madruger drivers ( not saying all madruger drivers are ****, there are sone really good ones out there) and that comment about owing is directed at my corp mate, but swarm = forge is not balance a medium frame that can run circles around heavies should not hit as hard and you're right about the pro uplinks |
Void Echo
2127
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Posted - 2013.11.09 23:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps. And tanks are difficult? Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now.
they are the hardest class to use in the game, if they were as easy as you say they are, 100% of dust would be using them you ******* idiot
Youtube
Closed Beta Vet
Level 2.1 Forum Warrior
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Monkey MAC
killer taxi company
General Tso's Alliance
945
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Posted - 2013.11.09 23:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
Void Echo wrote:Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps. And tanks are difficult? Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now. they are the hardest class to use in the game, if they were as easy as you say they are, 100% of dust would be using them you ******* idiot
Tell that to the nova knife scout and pretty much everyone not running ar.
I mean I took a miltia tank and killed a DS and its crew, within 3mins, the reason most people don't do tanks is because they haven't skilled, but it sure as hell is not the hardest class in the game!
The pen is mightier than the sword
The gun is mightier than both
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echo47
Minmatar Republic
98
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Posted - 2013.11.09 23:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
Void Echo wrote:Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps. And tanks are difficult? Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now. they are the hardest class to use in the game, if they were as easy as you say they are, 100% of dust would be using them you ******* idiot
Not the hardest class. They just take a lot of skill points (too many), and are too expensive. |
Void Echo
2127
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Posted - 2013.11.10 00:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
echo47 wrote:Void Echo wrote:Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps. And tanks are difficult? Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now. they are the hardest class to use in the game, if they were as easy as you say they are, 100% of dust would be using them you ******* idiot Not the hardest class. They just take a lot of skill points (too many), and are too expensive.
better way of wording it, thank you
Youtube
Closed Beta Vet
Level 2.1 Forum Warrior
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Monkey MAC
killer taxi company
General Tso's Alliance
946
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Posted - 2013.11.10 00:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Void Echo wrote:echo47 wrote:Void Echo wrote:Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps. And tanks are difficult? Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now. they are the hardest class to use in the game, if they were as easy as you say they are, 100% of dust would be using them you ******* idiot Not the hardest class. They just take a lot of skill points (too many), and are too expensive. better way of wording it, thank you
well rejoice your skill tree will be almost identical to ours soon, yay!
The pen is mightier than the sword
The gun is mightier than both
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
801
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Posted - 2013.11.10 01:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
Woka II wrote:
To my defense I run gunloggis, against armor tanks and av they're pretty easy to get killed in so I don't think it grants me god like power, it just makes me think smarter than the ****** madruger drivers ( not saying all madruger drivers are ****, there are sone really good ones out there) and that comment about owing is directed at my corp mate, but swarm = forge is not balance a medium frame that can run circles around heavies should not hit as hard and you're right about the pro uplinks
Oh I didn't realize he was in the same corp as you.
Swarms = Forge is balanced.
Otherwise, you'd have an imbalance between the two.
And in terms of capability, the FG is better because it can be used as a super sniper if you put them on a roof. Just ask Tankahiro and Godin, they'll tell you all about it. 
But yeah a FG has the ability to kill dropsuits, and is free-fire. That means that you don't have to always worry about your swarms crashing into a wall, which is what usually happens.
So yeah, in a sense Forge Guns are much better than Swarm Launchers.
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
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Woka II
Ultramarine Corp
2
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Posted - 2013.11.10 01:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:Woka II wrote:Traitor, you owe us tankers for some of your wins and if my gunloggi wasn't there that madruger woulda ripped your suit to shreds. And btw keep in mind swarm = LIGHT av weapon their damage should not be on par or greater than the forge gun ( forge gun = HEAVY av weapon). This is like saying a 40mm grenade launcher should deal the same destruction as a 120mm howitzer ( not literally) . Tell you what why don't you get a madruger or a gunloggi and see what happen when you have 3 guys even with standard swarms team up on you. You know why tankers are unhappy? We have to deal with dropships, enemy installations, rooftop forge gunners, enemy tanks, orbitals ( we basically have a bullseye on our tanks) and infantrymen who aren't gonna be happy until they solo a tank with militia swarm, like you said " they're tanks for heaven's sake" and a "tank" should not be crippled by a single soldier. Lets ignore that everything you listed infantry players have to worry about as well in addition to every other weapon in the game Lets ignore that there are many real world single man portable weapons capable of destroying a MBT since this is a game But lets focus on "One person should not be able to destroy a tank" Tell me why you think that, "Because its a tank" is not an answer Is it because of the SP investment? How about the fact that getting a weapon, modules, core skills and a frame to carry all that has a comparable cost but with more empty SP sinks with no benefit Is it the ISK cost? If so then please explain to me why you support pay to win Im all ears
1. You guy have to worry about other weapons but here's the thing, you don't have a bullseye painted on your back that screams " here I am, shoot me". In my experience they choose to kill my tank over a group of infantry in full or near full proto gear. Ive been singled on manus peak with an orbital when there were atleast 8 guys on A ( domination). We all got scanned.
2. Like you said it's a game. There should be balance, not a single light weapon that allows you to hold a 1 mil tank back. Heavier weapons I can sorta understand.
3. Yes and no, we have to deal with protos while using standard hulls. You guys who have lv 5 engineering and electronics can benefit more from your skills in your proto suits but we can only benefit so much in a standard hull
4. Again, yes and no. I would prefer not to have my 1 mil tank blown up because some guy can hit me from 400m and do the same amount of damage as a forge and i don't support pay to win.
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Woka II
Ultramarine Corp
2
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Posted - 2013.11.10 01:57:00 -
[30] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Woka II wrote:
To my defense I run gunloggis, against armor tanks and av they're pretty easy to get killed in so I don't think it grants me god like power, it just makes me think smarter than the ****** madruger drivers ( not saying all madruger drivers are ****, there are sone really good ones out there) and that comment about owing is directed at my corp mate, but swarm = forge is not balance a medium frame that can run circles around heavies should not hit as hard and you're right about the pro uplinks
Oh I didn't realize he was in the same corp as you. Swarms = Forge is balanced. Otherwise, you'd have an imbalance between the two. And in terms of capability, the FG is better because it can be used as a super sniper if you put them on a roof. Just ask Tankahiro and Godin, they'll tell you all about it. But yeah a FG has the ability to kill dropsuits, and is free-fire. That means that you don't have to always worry about your swarms crashing into a wall, which is what usually happens. So yeah, in a sense Forge Guns are much better than Swarm Launchers.
I dont mind forges being powerful, heavy weapons deserve to be powerful considering the horrendous movement speed, giant target and the cost, a light weapon should not be on par with a heavy weapon(damage wise and have more range). I know you can't free fire it but just like being caught with a forge at close range you better have a good backup or chances are you're screwed. |
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
801
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Posted - 2013.11.10 01:59:00 -
[31] - Quote
Void Echo wrote:Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps. And tanks are difficult? Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now. they are the hardest class to use in the game, if they were as easy as you say they are, 100% of dust would be using them you ******* idiot
- Infinite Ammo
- Near complete immunity to all but 3 infantry weapons in the entire game (REs don't count as weapons)
- Ability to fulfill multiple roles at the exact same time
- Requires an entire class to deal with.
The only reason why all of DUST doesn't use them is because of how expensive they are in comparison to dropsuits. The SP sink problem is a joke, It doesn't even take that much SP to get them running complete non-militia garbage.
Well that, and some people find more excitement in doing things besides driving inside a giant steel box firing infinite rounds at enemies.
Which is why I can't wait for the finite ammo system to come in, I'll finally have a reason to destroy Supply Depots in Matri/Caldari FW.
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
|
Benjamin Ciscko
The Generals
EoN.
182
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 02:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
My best fit tank (a little more than 1.4mil) can just barely take six proto swarms than a STD flaylock could rip me to pieces, something that costs much less than my tank both SP and ISK wise can easily kill me. AV nades just lol those things are way too over powered get the proto ones and get close to a tank and spam, don't complain that you can't kill a top tier tank w/ out damage mods using STD AV nades. You clearly have not driven tanks before because I have used AV and I know both sides off the story.
I have taken out expensive tanks using only STD gear, I took an AE tanker out this way. It is really simple get a STD min logi fit 1 proxy 1 RE and a nanohive. Determine the tanks route and where he's likely to go and place 4 tight proxies and 3 RE's than lie in wait. When the tank rolls by detonate the RE's and you will do 7,500 base damage factor in armor damage and you will do upwards of 10,000 damage and say he does survive 3 AV's and 3 SL volley's will surely kill him, want to kill a tank do it right. Just because you're a scrub and we are pro's does not mean we should get nerfed
Use team work don't complain you can't solo an expensive well built tank with low grade gear. Next patch LLAV's are being removed so they are literally nerfing our teamwork they haven't nerfed yours.
Vehicle rework scheduled for 1.5.... 1.6.... 1.7........
Tanker/Logi
Wait until AV feels the pain vehicle users have
|
Benjamin Ciscko
The Generals
EoN.
182
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 02:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Void Echo wrote:Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps. And tanks are difficult? Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now. they are the hardest class to use in the game, if they were as easy as you say they are, 100% of dust would be using them you ******* idiot
- Infinite Ammo
- Near complete immunity to all but 3 infantry weapons in the entire game (REs don't count as weapons)
- Ability to fulfill multiple roles at the exact same time
- Requires an entire class to deal with.
The only reason why all of DUST doesn't use them is because of how expensive they are in comparison to dropsuits. The SP sink problem is a joke, It doesn't even take that much SP to get them running complete non-militia garbage. Well that, and some people find more excitement in doing things besides driving inside a giant steel box firing infinite rounds at enemies. Which is why I can't wait for the finite ammo system to come in, I'll finally have a reason to destroy Supply Depots in Matri/Caldari FW.
What good is unlimited ammo when you can't see the swarms or the swarmer let alone hit him.
FG's obliterate tanks SL's obliterate tanks PLC needs a buff and it's a weapon if it can be used to kill tanks.
by design
Common sense/ by design, you can also use a tank of your own to kill it fulfilling multiple rolls (BTW I can waffle stomp at least five of your best fit tanks at the same time)
Your complaining you can't take something out that costs more SP than you put in the counter. It doesn't take Much SP to run proto lets see IA FG 650k SP prof. V 342k ADV heavy roughly 1mil SP complex DMG mods roughly 1mil sp so for only about 3m SP you can destroy some who has invested millions more SP. Also those DMG mods will help out your HMG heavy and other suits your ADV suit will as well the mill I have in Large hybrid turrets doesn't apply any where else nor the SP in HAV command, armor adaptation, armor upgrades, repping, plates and the list goes on.
Vehicle rework scheduled for 1.5.... 1.6.... 1.7........
Tanker/Logi
Wait until AV feels the pain vehicle users have
|
Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
1468
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 03:30:00 -
[34] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:What in the actual **** is wrong with you......... Truth hurts doesn't it?
You didn't get what I meant by that, did you?
'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever!
|
Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
1468
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 03:41:00 -
[35] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Woka II wrote:Traitor, you owe us tankers for some of your wins and if my gunloggi wasn't there that madruger woulda ripped your suit to shreds. And btw keep in mind swarm = LIGHT av weapon their damage should not be on par or greater than the forge gun ( forge gun = HEAVY av weapon). This is like saying a 40mm grenade launcher should deal the same destruction as a 120mm howitzer ( not literally) . Tell you what why don't you get a madruger or a gunloggi and see what happen when you have 3 guys even with standard swarms team up on you. You know why tankers are unhappy? We have to deal with dropships, enemy installations, rooftop forge gunners, enemy tanks, orbitals ( we basically have a bullseye on our tanks) and infantrymen who aren't gonna be happy until they solo a tank with militia swarm, like you said " they're tanks for heaven's sake" and a "tank" should not be crippled by a single soldier. Welcome to New Eden, where technology has evolved to allow Forge Guns to be equal to Swarm Launchers. By that same logi, we should re-do drop uplinks, as a PRO drop uplink shouldn't have the same capabilities as a CRU. My end goal is complete balance between the two. Problem is there are some tankers who want AV to be useless. I bet my life that no-one on this entire forum heck even CPMs and DEVs could post a link to a thread where I've said that I want vehicles removed from the game completely. A forge gun should be equal to a swarm launcher, that's called balance. And BTW, you owe AV for some of those win because if we didn't destroy those tanks, you would have gone pop! (Like most crappy tankers who think that simply driving a Madrugar should grant you god-like power and the ability to lock entire squads out of combat),
1: There will always be someone who thinks that vehicles should be useless as well. We should always ignore them.
2: Although I haven't seen you say that (yet), you do seem to lean towards the, "I want them to be pieces of ****" side of the spectrum.
3: Agreed, which is why the FG needs to be nerfed, so every AV'er doesn't just go FG in 1.7, which I'm sure will happen.
4: I'm sure you're not referring to me, as I've taken on more than 1 HAV solo and won.
'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever!
|
Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
809
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 03:47:00 -
[36] - Quote
Benjamin Ciscko wrote:
What good is unlimited ammo when you can't see the swarms or the swarmer let alone hit him.
FG's obliterate tanks SL's obliterate tanks PLC needs a buff and it's a weapon if it can be used to kill tanks.
by design
Common sense/ by design, you can also use a tank of your own to kill it fulfilling multiple rolls (BTW I can waffle stomp at least five of your best fit tanks at the same time)
Your complaining you can't take something out that costs more SP than you put in the counter. It doesn't take Much SP to run proto lets see IA FG 650k SP prof. V 342k ADV heavy roughly 1mil SP complex DMG mods roughly 1mil sp so for only about 3m SP you can destroy some who has invested millions more SP. Also those DMG mods will help out your HMG heavy and other suits your ADV suit will as well the mill I have in Large hybrid turrets doesn't apply any where else nor the SP in HAV command, armor adaptation, armor upgrades, repping, plates and the list goes on.
The invisible swarms is a glitch that can only be fixed by CCP. And it is a glitch so you can't blame the user for it. I'm not gonna fire a warning shot at you to see whether or not my swarms are invisible.
You make a lot of assumptions. And yeah It takes way more than 650k to get any weapon at level 5/prof 5. try again. The Grenadier skill, the core skills it takes to even have enough CPU/PG to run the gear and have room for complex damage mods, the range amplifiers, the skill for a dropsuit itself is a decent SP sink within itself.
Complaining about not being able to destroy tanks? Almost all of my corp members carry PRO AV, so not destroying a tank is something that rarely happens.
I currently have around an equal amount of SP invested into AV and Tanks, and that SP was so easy to gain. (If 2 weeks could be considered easy).
Won't help on anything else? I find that hilarious because my armor regeneration, transporting, shield boosters and shield transporters also work on my Limbus and soon to be dropship. All vehicles share the exact same core skills (save for a few maybe). The skills can be useful for more than one thing, it's just that many tankers only use it on one thing.
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
|
Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
1468
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 03:48:00 -
[37] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps. And tanks are difficult? Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now. Atiim, I am not a fan of tanks, but I think the SL range nerf will be interesting, as for the damage nerf, tanks are being nerfed to, we will have to wait and try out for ourselves! Your right, SLs are getting a range nerf. Not saying that 400m was okay, but at 175m max range any dropship pilot will be invincible to SL users if they fly high enough. Damage nerf is okay, but what about PRO and ADV tanks? What then. I'm not hating or trying to bag on you, but I think that some of the AV nerfs were ridiculously stupid.
Maybe you don't understand this yet. Unlike your little infantry suit, we can't die lots of times and still make ISK. Most of the time, we can't even die once for several matches, or we won't make ISK. So dying is not in our best interests. You want us to get easily popped by AV, and I get that. But when our **** costs this much, it shouldn't happen. And it's not. Anyways, PROTO HAV's will cost a **** load if they ever come out (which I hope they don't), so if we do happen to lose 1, it will hurt. A lot. But if we have the necessary skills, it will take a good while to do so.
Anyways, I do think AV'ers are under rewarded, so damage WP's, and like a "you scared the vehicle off" WP systems for AV weapons only should be given.
'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever!
|
Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
1468
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 03:51:00 -
[38] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Void Echo wrote:Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps. And tanks are difficult? Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now. they are the hardest class to use in the game, if they were as easy as you say they are, 100% of dust would be using them you ******* idiot Tell that to the nova knife scout and pretty much everyone not running ar. I mean I took a miltia tank and killed a DS and its crew, within 3mins, the reason most people don't do tanks is because they haven't skilled, but it sure as hell is not the hardest class in the game!
in terms of making a profit it is
'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever!
|
Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
809
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 04:02:00 -
[39] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:
Maybe you don't understand this yet. Unlike your little infantry suit, we can't die lots of times and still make ISK. Most of the time, we can't even die once for several matches, or we won't make ISK. So dying is not in our best interests. You want us to get easily popped by AV, and I get that. But when our **** costs this much, it shouldn't happen. And it's not. Anyways, PROTO HAV's will cost a **** load if they ever come out (which I hope they don't), so if we do happen to lose 1, it will hurt. A lot. But if we have the necessary skills, it will take a good while to do so.
Anyways, I do think AV'ers are under rewarded, so damage WP's, and like a "you scared the vehicle off" WP systems for AV weapons only should be given.
I have no problem with getting WP for "scaring off" a tank. Just as long as it is given properly as opposed to "You chased of a tank, here's 5 WP."
Currently it's winner takes all, leading to the "You must die at all costs" mentality.
And I personally think that tanks cost way too much to be viable in it's current state, and with the supposed price of ADV and PRO tanks you can bet your @$$ that most of the playerbase will stay them. This game needs to stop catering to rich vets with 2B ISK and focus on the other 90% of it's players. HAVs truly do need a price debuff.
And my strongest AV suit costs 1/2 of the price of my HAV, so I can't really afford to die that much either.
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
|
Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
1468
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 04:16:00 -
[40] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:
Maybe you don't understand this yet. Unlike your little infantry suit, we can't die lots of times and still make ISK. Most of the time, we can't even die once for several matches, or we won't make ISK. So dying is not in our best interests. You want us to get easily popped by AV, and I get that. But when our **** costs this much, it shouldn't happen. And it's not. Anyways, PROTO HAV's will cost a **** load if they ever come out (which I hope they don't), so if we do happen to lose 1, it will hurt. A lot. But if we have the necessary skills, it will take a good while to do so.
Anyways, I do think AV'ers are under rewarded, so damage WP's, and like a "you scared the vehicle off" WP systems for AV weapons only should be given.
I have no problem with getting WP for "scaring off" a tank. Just as long as it is given properly as opposed to "You chased of a tank, here's 5 WP." Currently it's winner takes all, leading to the "You must die at all costs" mentality. And I personally think that tanks cost way too much to be viable in it's current state, and with the supposed price of ADV and PRO tanks you can bet your @$$ that most of the playerbase will stay them. This game needs to stop catering to rich vets with 2B ISK and focus on the other 90% of it's players. HAVs truly do need a price debuff. And my strongest AV suit costs 1/2 of the price of my HAV, so I can't really afford to die that much either.
1: 5 wp's would be too low. It should be based off of how much WP's per hull size, and should give wp's based on that hull.
ex. you do 750-1000 damage to a HAV. You get 15-25 wp's. You do 250-500 damage to a LAV, you get 5-15 wp's
And you should be able to get a reward for it for at least 4 times before it hit a cap for a minute. Also, for the scaring away vehicle WP's if you damage a vehicle, for the damage WP's, and the pilot either recalls or doesn't get any WP's for a minute, you get whatever the hull's damage WP's is. That caps out for 2 minutes for that pilot
ex. You fire at a HAV, and damage it. you get 15-25 WP's. It retreats and recalls. You get a extra 15-25 WP's. He calls it back, and you fire at it again, same scenario happens, but this time, you don't get the scaring away WP's.
2: That must be a cheap and weak HAV. My proto Av suit costs 4-16x less than my HAV's.
'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever!
|
|
|
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company
General Tso's Alliance
948
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 12:12:00 -
[41] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Atiim wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:
Maybe you don't understand this yet. Unlike your little infantry suit, we can't die lots of times and still make ISK. Most of the time, we can't even die once for several matches, or we won't make ISK. So dying is not in our best interests. You want us to get easily popped by AV, and I get that. But when our **** costs this much, it shouldn't happen. And it's not. Anyways, PROTO HAV's will cost a **** load if they ever come out (which I hope they don't), so if we do happen to lose 1, it will hurt. A lot. But if we have the necessary skills, it will take a good while to do so.
Anyways, I do think AV'ers are under rewarded, so damage WP's, and like a "you scared the vehicle off" WP systems for AV weapons only should be given.
I have no problem with getting WP for "scaring off" a tank. Just as long as it is given properly as opposed to "You chased of a tank, here's 5 WP." Currently it's winner takes all, leading to the "You must die at all costs" mentality. And I personally think that tanks cost way too much to be viable in it's current state, and with the supposed price of ADV and PRO tanks you can bet your @$$ that most of the playerbase will stay them. This game needs to stop catering to rich vets with 2B ISK and focus on the other 90% of it's players. HAVs truly do need a price debuff. And my strongest AV suit costs 1/2 of the price of my HAV, so I can't really afford to die that much either. 1: 5 wp's would be too low. It should be based off of how much WP's per hull size, and should give wp's based on that hull. ex. you do 750-1000 damage to a HAV. You get 15-25 wp's. You do 250-500 damage to a LAV, you get 5-15 wp's And you should be able to get a reward for it for at least 4 times before it hit a cap for a minute. Also, for the scaring away vehicle WP's if you damage a vehicle, for the damage WP's, and the pilot either recalls or doesn't get any WP's for a minute, you get whatever the hull's damage WP's is. That caps out for 2 minutes for that pilot ex. You fire at a HAV, and damage it. you get 15-25 WP's. It retreats and recalls. You get a extra 15-25 WP's. He calls it back, and you fire at it again, same scenario happens, but this time, you don't get the scaring away WP's. 2: That must be a cheap and weak HAV. My proto Av suit costs 4-16x less than my HAV's.
I think 16x less is a bit of an exageration, we know you cost more, but what a lot of tankers forget, you might die once every few matches, but an infantry unit will die a few times every match, now a suit costs about 50,000+50,000+25,000+25,000+(6+ù5,000) ~ 200,000 per suit, there abouts now8w what that means in a public match if we die once, we pull in a profit of about 12,000 isk, but that is unlikely to happen. If we try to be AV for the majority of the match we can expect to die at least a dozen times, and half a dozen when we play as infantry.
The pen is mightier than the sword
The gun is mightier than both
|
Benjamin Ciscko
The Generals
EoN.
184
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 16:30:00 -
[42] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Benjamin Ciscko wrote:
What good is unlimited ammo when you can't see the swarms or the swarmer let alone hit him.
FG's obliterate tanks SL's obliterate tanks PLC needs a buff and it's a weapon if it can be used to kill tanks.
by design
Common sense/ by design, you can also use a tank of your own to kill it fulfilling multiple rolls (BTW I can waffle stomp at least five of your best fit tanks at the same time)
Your complaining you can't take something out that costs more SP than you put in the counter. It doesn't take Much SP to run proto lets see IA FG 650k SP prof. V 342k ADV heavy roughly 1mil SP complex DMG mods roughly 1mil sp so for only about 3m SP you can destroy some who has invested millions more SP. Also those DMG mods will help out your HMG heavy and other suits your ADV suit will as well the mill I have in Large hybrid turrets doesn't apply any where else nor the SP in HAV command, armor adaptation, armor upgrades, repping, plates and the list goes on.
The invisible swarms is a glitch that can only be fixed by CCP. And it is a glitch so you can't blame the user for it. I'm not gonna fire a warning shot at you to see whether or not my swarms are invisible. You make a lot of assumptions. And yeah It takes way more than 650k to get any weapon at level 5/prof 5. try again. The Grenadier skill, the core skills it takes to even have enough CPU/PG to run the gear and have room for complex damage mods, the range amplifiers, the skill for a dropsuit itself is a decent SP sink within itself. Complaining about not being able to destroy tanks? Almost all of my corp members carry PRO AV, so not destroying a tank is something that rarely happens. I currently have around an equal amount of SP invested into AV and Tanks, and that SP was so easy to gain. (If 2 weeks could be considered easy). Won't help on anything else? I find that hilarious because my armor regeneration, transporting, shield boosters and shield transporters also work on my Limbus and soon to be dropship. All vehicles share the exact same core skills (save for a few maybe). The skills can be useful for more than one thing, it's just that many tankers only use it on one thing.
prof. V was a typo I meant prof. III, I'm almost certain you could drop some armor or a secondary or a grenade to fit the DMG mod, range amplifiers you have incredible range to begin with.
If your corp can easily destroy tanks why are you complaining?
Vehicle rework scheduled for 1.5.... 1.6.... 1.7........
Tanker/Logi
Wait until AV feels the pain vehicle users have
|
Lorhak Gannarsein
572
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 16:48:00 -
[43] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:Woka II wrote:Traitor, you owe us tankers for some of your wins and if my gunloggi wasn't there that madruger woulda ripped your suit to shreds. And btw keep in mind swarm = LIGHT av weapon their damage should not be on par or greater than the forge gun ( forge gun = HEAVY av weapon). This is like saying a 40mm grenade launcher should deal the same destruction as a 120mm howitzer ( not literally) . Tell you what why don't you get a madruger or a gunloggi and see what happen when you have 3 guys even with standard swarms team up on you. You know why tankers are unhappy? We have to deal with dropships, enemy installations, rooftop forge gunners, enemy tanks, orbitals ( we basically have a bullseye on our tanks) and infantrymen who aren't gonna be happy until they solo a tank with militia swarm, like you said " they're tanks for heaven's sake" and a "tank" should not be crippled by a single soldier. Lets ignore that everything you listed infantry players have to worry about as well in addition to every other weapon in the game Lets ignore that there are many real world single man portable weapons capable of destroying a MBT since this is a game But lets focus on "One person should not be able to destroy a tank" Tell me why you think that, "Because its a tank" is not an answer Is it because of the SP investment? How about the fact that getting a weapon, modules, core skills and a frame to carry all that has a comparable cost but with more empty SP sinks with no benefit Is it the ISK cost? If so then please explain to me why you support pay to win Im all ears
Okay, too tired to read the rest, only care about the last sentence.
I think you misunderstand; most tankers run them cos it's fun. Not because it's a win button or whatever. I'd love to be in one all day long; it's my favourite thing to do in this game.
I can't, cos it's super expensive and consequently nigh-impossible to run a profit. Or even break even.
I would have been overjoyed at a buff to tank durability to bring it in line with cost (which is to say, possible to run a profit in) or alternatively, a series of nerfs and price drops that make it easy for AV to solo a tank, and cutting the price massively at the same time.
Ain't no pay-to-win except what you're putting in people's mouths.
But while I'm shelling out 700k just to play my preferred role (which translates to three matches or an hour, incidentally), I bloody well expect to be able to rip sh*t up.
Too busy clicking cookies to play DUST...
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CharCharOdell
1501
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 17:05:00 -
[44] - Quote
You're wrong. AV grenades and swarm launchers are LIGHT weapons and therefore, should be there for destroying LIGHT vehicles; NOT HAVS. THat is why we have a forge gun. If a forge gun kills a tank, then whatevs, it is a heavy weapon and the guy using it is a big, slow target who spent a lot more isk and sp to kill havs than the SL guy with yolo nades did.
Any lock on weapon should just be god awful, by comparison. They need this nerf.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Benjamin Ciscko
The Generals
EoN.
184
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 18:24:00 -
[45] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:Woka II wrote:Traitor, you owe us tankers for some of your wins and if my gunloggi wasn't there that madruger woulda ripped your suit to shreds. And btw keep in mind swarm = LIGHT av weapon their damage should not be on par or greater than the forge gun ( forge gun = HEAVY av weapon). This is like saying a 40mm grenade launcher should deal the same destruction as a 120mm howitzer ( not literally) . Tell you what why don't you get a madruger or a gunloggi and see what happen when you have 3 guys even with standard swarms team up on you. You know why tankers are unhappy? We have to deal with dropships, enemy installations, rooftop forge gunners, enemy tanks, orbitals ( we basically have a bullseye on our tanks) and infantrymen who aren't gonna be happy until they solo a tank with militia swarm, like you said " they're tanks for heaven's sake" and a "tank" should not be crippled by a single soldier. Lets ignore that everything you listed infantry players have to worry about as well in addition to every other weapon in the game Lets ignore that there are many real world single man portable weapons capable of destroying a MBT since this is a game But lets focus on "One person should not be able to destroy a tank" Tell me why you think that, "Because its a tank" is not an answer Is it because of the SP investment? How about the fact that getting a weapon, modules, core skills and a frame to carry all that has a comparable cost but with more empty SP sinks with no benefit Is it the ISK cost? If so then please explain to me why you support pay to win Im all ears
There are tanks that can shake off multiple RPG shots because the RPG is a light weapon and tanks are heavy vehicles.
Because it's a ******* video game and we are talking about balance and yes because it's also a tank.
It takes much more SP in tanks than it does AV 3mil AV is greater than 6mil+ tank
200k swarm suit is greater than 1.4mil tank.
Vehicle rework scheduled for 1.5.... 1.6.... 1.7........
Tanker/Logi
Wait until AV feels the pain vehicle users have
|
pegasis prime
BIG BAD W0LVES
1255
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 18:40:00 -
[46] - Quote
do you know what I love about all the anti tank brigade. when they all proclaim to not really like vehicular combat or like vehicles being in a shooter .
Did any of these folks watch even 1 add that ccp released most if not all display a heaver vehicle presence than infantry. if they did watch these adds and see all these vehicles did they think oh my another game for me to go cry about ........ or did they watch it and think wow that looks f'cking awesome with tanks, drop ships and lavs all battling it out with infantry scattered between fighting on the front together.
if you watch any of the interwebs adds about dust they ALL have a heavy vehicular presence so its clear that ccp wanted them to be prominent on the field.... just my 0.2 isk
Its gone from suck .....to blow
level 1 forum warrior
|
MUDFLAPS McGILLICUTTY
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
98
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 19:07:00 -
[47] - Quote
Canis Ferox wrote:
Anti Vehicle (AV) grenades are effective against Baby tanks*. But Mummy tanks just get angry and Daddy tanks..** (YEs I am taking this analogy all the way!) ...Daddy tanks just laugh in the face of a combined AV, swarm launcher assault, turn around and stomp you!
Discuss.
The "daddy" analogy is creepy.
Strong tanks require strong AV. It's as simple as that...
A high-end tank isn't going to splat instantly because some guy is shooting a Militia Swarm Launcher and throwing base AV nades.
However, Lai Dai packed AV + Wyrakomi Swarms will shred any current tank fit in seconds.
Considering AV grenades aren't their own specific tree and swarm launchers require very little SP to spec into, I really don't see what the problem is? I invested 15 million SP into vehicles, I don't understand how unskilled infantryman expect to be able to instantly counter that with little to nothing invested in AV? The way it is currently, one proto AV on a rooftop = GG for ALL vehicles. Seriously, AV grenades and swarm launchers are the only weapons in this game that you literally don't even need to be able to aim to use. Just get someone near on-target and the homing systems do the rest for you.
I seriously doubt 1.7 will become a tankfest. I consider 1.7 to be a huge nerf to tanks - look at the slots lost, ammo requirements, etc. They haven't even fixed the basic issues (distance rendering for drivers, invisible swarms, hit detection shield glitch) etc... Not to mention half of the new maps have supply depots that are either underground or on a roof - meaning you're just going to constantly have to recall and call in a new tank as you run out of ammo.
Which, all-in-all, doesn't really sound like much fun to me. |
Harpyja
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
754
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 19:19:00 -
[48] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Okay, too tired to read the rest, only care about the last sentence. I think you misunderstand; most tankers run them cos it's fun. Not because it's a win button or whatever. I'd love to be in one all day long; it's my favourite thing to do in this game. I can't, cos it's super expensive and consequently nigh-impossible to run a profit. Or even break even. I would have been overjoyed at a buff to tank durability to bring it in line with cost (which is to say, possible to run a profit in) or alternatively, a series of nerfs and price drops that make it easy for AV to solo a tank, and cutting the price massively at the same time. Ain't no pay-to-win except what you're putting in people's mouths. But while I'm shelling out 700k just to play my preferred role (which translates to three matches or an hour, incidentally), I bloody well expect to be able to rip sh*t up.
I'm just the same way. I don't use vehicles because I want them to be I-win buttons. I use vehicles because they are fun.
I enjoy flying my Python because it's fun and I like flying in FPS games like Dust, even though I may get 10-15 kills max while assaults on the ground get more. But it isn't fun when people shoot me down, not because I am a larger threat than any infantryman, but because of "Hey look, WPs." I've lost very few Pythons because I'm a rather decent pilot, but it's still hard to run positive due to their cost of nearly 1mil ISK and being rewarded up to 250k ISK, if not much less.
I also enjoyed flying my Eryx, simply because I am a mobile spawn point. I enjoyed hovering over objectives and have people spawn and drop and capture objectives. But, the problems of getting very low ISK rewards and blueberries that don't jump out forced me to stop flying my Eryx.
I enjoy roaming around in my missile Gunnlogi. I like to install fear into my enemy when I round a corner and fire my missiles at them. I don't want it to be an I-win button. However, I don't want it to be destroyed by one person with proto AV before I can even pull out. I want people to fear me like they did in the old days of Chromosome, and smile when good teamwork brought me down. Now I'm just a pinata full of ISK and WPs, waiting to get popped by a couple of assault suits with ARs, a nanohive, and some Lai Dai AV 'nades. Yes, AV 'nades hurt shield tanks as well, because our shield regen is terrible.
I don't enjoy sitting on the hills with my railgun Gunnlogi. I don't enjoy sitting near the enemy's red line for an entire match, waiting for an RDV to get called in. But this is what I must do so I can stay positive and run any of my other vehicles for fun.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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pegasis prime
BIG BAD W0LVES
1255
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 20:16:00 -
[49] - Quote
I just thought id come on here and leave these ads . everyone have a good watch at them and then decide what type of combat ccp had in mind did they wand ar 514 or Dust 514 just watch them and decide.
1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN58mesUkkY
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZRty1OiSsE
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shtFNDef9Rc
4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPYY3sHCdXk
these are just some of the adds that are out there and again im going to point out how vehicular they appear to be yes they also include infantry but are heavily focused on vehicular combat.
Every time I see someone getting but hurt because of vehicles I just think wow did they even see any adds or look into what this game is about before coming hear to ruin it for every one. just bloody look at them CCP obviously wanted heavy vehicle presence on the battlefield just as much as infantry any one who watches these ads and signs up to dust only to get but hurt because of vehicles is just plain stupid and you can take that to the f'#cking bank
Its gone from suck .....to blow
level 1 forum warrior
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Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
1473
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 20:24:00 -
[50] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Atiim wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:
Maybe you don't understand this yet. Unlike your little infantry suit, we can't die lots of times and still make ISK. Most of the time, we can't even die once for several matches, or we won't make ISK. So dying is not in our best interests. You want us to get easily popped by AV, and I get that. But when our **** costs this much, it shouldn't happen. And it's not. Anyways, PROTO HAV's will cost a **** load if they ever come out (which I hope they don't), so if we do happen to lose 1, it will hurt. A lot. But if we have the necessary skills, it will take a good while to do so.
Anyways, I do think AV'ers are under rewarded, so damage WP's, and like a "you scared the vehicle off" WP systems for AV weapons only should be given.
I have no problem with getting WP for "scaring off" a tank. Just as long as it is given properly as opposed to "You chased of a tank, here's 5 WP." Currently it's winner takes all, leading to the "You must die at all costs" mentality. And I personally think that tanks cost way too much to be viable in it's current state, and with the supposed price of ADV and PRO tanks you can bet your @$$ that most of the playerbase will stay them. This game needs to stop catering to rich vets with 2B ISK and focus on the other 90% of it's players. HAVs truly do need a price debuff. And my strongest AV suit costs 1/2 of the price of my HAV, so I can't really afford to die that much either. 1: 5 wp's would be too low. It should be based off of how much WP's per hull size, and should give wp's based on that hull. ex. you do 750-1000 damage to a HAV. You get 15-25 wp's. You do 250-500 damage to a LAV, you get 5-15 wp's And you should be able to get a reward for it for at least 4 times before it hit a cap for a minute. Also, for the scaring away vehicle WP's if you damage a vehicle, for the damage WP's, and the pilot either recalls or doesn't get any WP's for a minute, you get whatever the hull's damage WP's is. That caps out for 2 minutes for that pilot ex. You fire at a HAV, and damage it. you get 15-25 WP's. It retreats and recalls. You get a extra 15-25 WP's. He calls it back, and you fire at it again, same scenario happens, but this time, you don't get the scaring away WP's. 2: That must be a cheap and weak HAV. My proto Av suit costs 4-16x less than my HAV's. I think 16x less is a bit of an exageration, we know you cost more, but what a lot of tankers forget, you might die once every few matches, but an infantry unit will die a few times every match, now a suit costs about 50,000+50,000+25,000+25,000+(6+ù5,000) ~ 200,000 per suit, there abouts now8w what that means in a public match if we die once, we pull in a profit of about 12,000 isk, but that is unlikely to happen. If we try to be AV for the majority of the match we can expect to die at least a dozen times, and half a dozen when we play as infantry.
Nope. times 200k by 16. 1.6 mil ISK per HAV. I kid you not.
'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever!
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Beld Errmon
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
1106
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 20:41:00 -
[51] - Quote
Tankers are wasting their breath trying to reason with the anti tank crowd, they've been molested by a tanker in the past and they won't rest till tanks are gone or OHK'd by militia swarms, they are terrible at their role and think its the tanks fault, while in PC i've seen 1 man with protoAV kill or drive off multiple tanks. |
Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
831
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 20:52:00 -
[52] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:Tankers are wasting their breath trying to reason with the anti tank crowd, they've been molested by a tanker in the past and they won't rest till tanks are gone or OHK'd by militia swarms, they are terrible at their role and think its the tanks fault, while in PC i've seen 1 man with protoAV kill or drive off multiple tanks.
I wouldn't consider myself as part of the Anti-Tank crowd, but I'll bite the apple anyway....
When have I ever said I want tanks to be OHKO'd by MLT swarms? When has anyone?
PRO AV is supposed to be super strong. Against PRO AV only the strongest of the the strong tanks should survive. It is PRO.
You assume that everyone here who's AV is bad at their role? You haven't even squared up with all of them (us).
As I've said before, I've never said nor implied that I want vehicles removed from the game. And I challenge anyone to state the contrary.
Don't resort to baseless claims and ad hominem. It just makes your arguments look weak.
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
831
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 21:06:00 -
[53] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:You're wrong. AV grenades and swarm launchers are LIGHT weapons and therefore, should be there for destroying LIGHT vehicles; NOT HAVS. THat is why we have a forge gun. If a forge gun kills a tank, then whatevs, it is a heavy weapon and the guy using it is a big, slow target who spent a lot more isk and sp to kill havs than the SL guy with yolo nades did.
Any lock on weapon should just be god awful, by comparison. They need this nerf.
No you are wrong.
Forge Guns = Swarm Launchers is balance. Every class needs to be equal.
Forge Guns have the same SP investments as Swarm Launchers, so there is no greater SP investment for the slow moving target. ISK? IAFGs & iASLs cost the exact same.
So because it's bigger it should be better? Do you realize that I could use the exact same logic to justify TTK and why Scouts aren't viable right?
A lock isn't that good when the swarms crash into a wall 90% of the time. I honestly would prefer if Swarm Launchers were like predator missiles.
They need this nerf? They need to 99.9999999999% useless against good dropship pilots?
And what happens when the ADV and PRO tanks decide to crash the party? If it takes 3 people to take out a STD tank then how many should it take to destroy a PRO tank? An entire squad?
And the "But they will be super rare because they cost so much" argument is thrown out the window when most people have around 600m-2B ISK.
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
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True Adamance
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
4039
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 21:15:00 -
[54] - Quote
Atiim wrote:CharCharOdell wrote:You're wrong. AV grenades and swarm launchers are LIGHT weapons and therefore, should be there for destroying LIGHT vehicles; NOT HAVS. THat is why we have a forge gun. If a forge gun kills a tank, then whatevs, it is a heavy weapon and the guy using it is a big, slow target who spent a lot more isk and sp to kill havs than the SL guy with yolo nades did.
Any lock on weapon should just be god awful, by comparison. They need this nerf. No you are wrong. Forge Guns = Swarm Launchers is balance. Every class needs to be equal. Forge Guns have the same SP investments as Swarm Launchers, so there is no greater SP investment for the slow moving target. ISK? IAFGs & iASLs cost the exact same. So because it's bigger it should be better? Do you realize that I could use the exact same logic to justify TTK and why Scouts aren't viable right? A lock isn't that good when the swarms crash into a wall 90% of the time. I honestly would prefer if Swarm Launchers were like predator missiles. They need this nerf? They need to 99.9999999999% useless against good dropship pilots? And what happens when the ADV and PRO tanks decide to crash the party? If it takes 3 people to take out a STD tank then how many should it take to destroy a PRO tank? An entire squad? And the "But they will be super rare because they cost so much" argument is thrown out the window when most people have around 600m-2B ISK.
I don't disagree with you.... but I also don't disagree with Char....who know far more about vehicles than we ever will....
I think he is right though. Swarm launchers should be weapons designed to hit light vehicles hard and destroy them, the fast projectile velocity and homing nature make them idea light vehicle killers.
Just as the forge guns high alpha, long range make it the ideal HAV destroying device.
AS for AV grenades, I have made no attmpts to hide I think they are stupid, don't make sense and are broken as hell. I wish they'd just be removed.
"All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
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Canis Ferox
Ultramarine Corp
4
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Posted - 2013.11.11 08:55:00 -
[55] - Quote
Woka II wrote:You know why tankers are unhappy? We have to deal with dropships, enemy installations, rooftop forge gunners, enemy tanks, orbitals ( we basically have a bullseye on our tanks) and infantrymen who aren't gonna be happy until they solo a tank with militia swarm, like you said " they're tanks for heaven's sake" and a "tank" should not be crippled by a single soldier.
Firstly, thank you for your contribution. However, I am never grateful for any allied tanker's assistance. More often than not, you destroy installations which are valuable to me for strategic advantage. You also harvest kills, which leaves fewer enemies for me to engage with (which is kinda the point of playing). And I don't play to win, I don't play for SP and I certainly don't play for K/D.
I play to play.
Also, you're complaints are quite interesting; Tankers have to put up with enemy tanks? I can't even comment on that politely. And you have a massive bullseye printed on you because you have an unbalanced ability to kill everything in sight - we need to get you down as quickly as possible and as you have clearly pointed out - it takes a large number of the opposing team to tackle you. I don't mind that, it inspires team work, but if the guns don't work then we'll need the whole team switching to AV just to kill one player. |
dogmanpig
black market bank
33
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 08:58:00 -
[56] - Quote
i not going to get dragged into this nerf tanks thread, it only takes one av guy to kill any tank and if you can't then your a scrub.
You hate me, I hate you. Lets keep it that way.
Level 7 1/3 Forum alt.
"Its worth half a penny and a reach around"
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Monkey MAC
killer taxi company
General Tso's Alliance
956
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Posted - 2013.11.11 10:12:00 -
[57] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Atiim wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:
Maybe you don't understand this yet. Unlike your little infantry suit, we can't die lots of times and still make ISK. Most of the time, we can't even die once for several matches, or we won't make ISK. So dying is not in our best interests. You want us to get easily popped by AV, and I get that. But when our **** costs this much, it shouldn't happen. And it's not. Anyways, PROTO HAV's will cost a **** load if they ever come out (which I hope they don't), so if we do happen to lose 1, it will hurt. A lot. But if we have the necessary skills, it will take a good while to do so.
Anyways, I do think AV'ers are under rewarded, so damage WP's, and like a "you scared the vehicle off" WP systems for AV weapons only should be given.
I have no problem with getting WP for "scaring off" a tank. Just as long as it is given properly as opposed to "You chased of a tank, here's 5 WP." Currently it's winner takes all, leading to the "You must die at all costs" mentality. And I personally think that tanks cost way too much to be viable in it's current state, and with the supposed price of ADV and PRO tanks you can bet your @$$ that most of the playerbase will stay them. This game needs to stop catering to rich vets with 2B ISK and focus on the other 90% of it's players. HAVs truly do need a price debuff. And my strongest AV suit costs 1/2 of the price of my HAV, so I can't really afford to die that much either. 1: 5 wp's would be too low. It should be based off of how much WP's per hull size, and should give wp's based on that hull. ex. you do 750-1000 damage to a HAV. You get 15-25 wp's. You do 250-500 damage to a LAV, you get 5-15 wp's And you should be able to get a reward for it for at least 4 times before it hit a cap for a minute. Also, for the scaring away vehicle WP's if you damage a vehicle, for the damage WP's, and the pilot either recalls or doesn't get any WP's for a minute, you get whatever the hull's damage WP's is. That caps out for 2 minutes for that pilot ex. You fire at a HAV, and damage it. you get 15-25 WP's. It retreats and recalls. You get a extra 15-25 WP's. He calls it back, and you fire at it again, same scenario happens, but this time, you don't get the scaring away WP's. 2: That must be a cheap and weak HAV. My proto Av suit costs 4-16x less than my HAV's. I think 16x less is a bit of an exageration, we know you cost more, but what a lot of tankers forget, you might die once every few matches, but an infantry unit will die a few times every match, now a suit costs about 50,000+50,000+25,000+25,000+(6+ù5,000) ~ 200,000 per suit, there abouts now8w what that means in a public match if we die once, we pull in a profit of about 12,000 isk, but that is unlikely to happen. If we try to be AV for the majority of the match we can expect to die at least a dozen times, and half a dozen when we play as infantry. Nope. times 200k by 16. 1.6 mil ISK per HAV. I kid you not.
200k x 16 = 3.2mil, might wanna check you maths
200k x 8 = 1.6mil.
So a light aver can die 7 times and still be better of than you, assuming the same av dogs you every match making it his sole goal to kill you.
If he manages to kill you every match without dieing 8 times, then I will hire him for my squad, because he is either the hero unit of av, or he will want a squad to watch his back. Because I guarantee when I go AV in an advanced suit, I have to wait for the tank to come to me, behind my friendly offensive lines.
So please stop whining, the tank is the easiest to make money if you know what you are doing, take a friend in a lav for extra reps, butcher a load of people, take in more money than your infantry counterparts, die less than your infantry counterparts.
You wanna find a way that makes you almost no money, try a 180K proto scout without a scanner, you pull in approx 160K a match and die at least 3 dozen times on a bad day.
The pen is mightier than the sword
The gun is mightier than both
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Monkey MAC
killer taxi company
General Tso's Alliance
956
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 10:14:00 -
[58] - Quote
Canis Ferox wrote:Woka II wrote:You know why tankers are unhappy? We have to deal with dropships, enemy installations, rooftop forge gunners, enemy tanks, orbitals ( we basically have a bullseye on our tanks) and infantrymen who aren't gonna be happy until they solo a tank with militia swarm, like you said " they're tanks for heaven's sake" and a "tank" should not be crippled by a single soldier. Firstly, thank you for your contribution. However, I am never grateful for any allied tanker's assistance. More often than not, you destroy installations which are valuable to me for strategic advantage. You also harvest kills, which leaves fewer enemies for me to engage with (which is kinda the point of playing). And I don't play to win, I don't play for SP and I certainly don't play for K/D. I play to play. Also, you're complaints are quite interesting; Tankers have to put up with enemy tanks? I can't even comment on that politely. And you have a massive bullseye printed on you because you have an unbalanced ability to kill everything in sight - we need to get you down as quickly as possible and as you have clearly pointed out - it takes a large number of the opposing team to tackle you. I don't mind that, it inspires team work, but if the guns don't work then we'll need the whole team switching to AV just to kill one player.
You'll end up with what I have seen so many times already, bring proto av, or go home!
The pen is mightier than the sword
The gun is mightier than both
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Woka II
Ultramarine Corp
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 03:31:00 -
[59] - Quote
Canis Ferox wrote:Woka II wrote:You know why tankers are unhappy? We have to deal with dropships, enemy installations, rooftop forge gunners, enemy tanks, orbitals ( we basically have a bullseye on our tanks) and infantrymen who aren't gonna be happy until they solo a tank with militia swarm, like you said " they're tanks for heaven's sake" and a "tank" should not be crippled by a single soldier. Firstly, thank you for your contribution. However, I am never grateful for any allied tanker's assistance. More often than not, you destroy installations which are valuable to me for strategic advantage. You also harvest kills, which leaves fewer enemies for me to engage with (which is kinda the point of playing). And I don't play to win, I don't play for SP and I certainly don't play for K/D. I play to play. Also, you're complaints are quite interesting; Tankers have to put up with enemy tanks? I can't even comment on that politely. And you have a massive bullseye printed on you because you have an unbalanced ability to kill everything in sight - we need to get you down as quickly as possible and as you have clearly pointed out - it takes a large number of the opposing team to tackle you. I don't mind that, it inspires team work, but if the guns don't work then we'll need the whole team switching to AV just to kill one player.
Your "strategic positions" brings more harm to your own teammates than good. "OMG A TURRET I SHOULD HACK IT!!! *2 minutes later* enemy hacks it and shoots down a friendly dropship. And if I don't blow it up, an enemy will, idk bout you but my team's success matters more to me than an enemy's so if I can ill take the 100 wp and add onto an orbital that could change the flow of the battle, ill blast it rather than leave a piece of crap installation that's gonna get targeted by friendlies and enemies. Also unbalanced ability to kill my ass, if you can't take tank out with 3 ppl or less, you suck. Y'all already got tanks nerfed after chromosome because you didn't have the coordination back then and you sure as hell don't have it now ( considering that you claim a piece of useless tin has an unbalanced ability to kill) . And honestly when was the last you saw an installation take down a tank. And yes we have to deal with enemy tanks y'all give up when you can't kill a well fit tank with a militia swarm launcher.
P.S if it takes you an entire team to take down a gunloggi, you deserve to die considering how weak a gunloggi is. |
Canis Ferox
Ultramarine Corp
5
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:06:00 -
[60] - Quote
dogmanpig wrote:i not going to get dragged into this nerf tanks thread, it only takes one av guy to kill any tank and if you can't then your a scrub.
Thank you for your heart-felt contribution dogpigman and welcome to the debate at large, the one you're not getting dragged into. Well done.
=] |
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1220
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:26:00 -
[61] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Void Echo wrote:Atiim wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:What in the actual **** is wrong with you......... Truth hurts doesn't it? pilots are still the only thing keeping you from turning this game into another call of duty. (Ok I'm fed up with this, please stop using excess line breaks in your posts.) Really? I thought the mass diversity and the fact that everyone isn't a tryhard KD/R scrub is what kept this from becoming a CoD clone. You give yourself way too much credit. And it's AV that prevents this from becoming TANK 514. And I expect a new release of "Wirykomi" 514 in the next update.
16 Cal Logis can be deployed with a mix of FOTM weapons, but you can't deploy 16 tanks per team. Your argument is invalid. Please stop posting any more tank-related threads.
Why should it be balanced around pubs? Have you even been in a PC match?
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1220
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:27:00 -
[62] - Quote
Fist Groinpunch wrote:
So while the grizzled veteran with 20k+ SP in tanks alone
Wait...................... wut?
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1220
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Posted - 2013.11.12 10:27:00 -
[63] - Quote
Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps. And tanks are difficult? Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now.
Tanks are easy because you don't know what punishing AV is like.
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1220
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:29:00 -
[64] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:Woka II wrote:Traitor, you owe us tankers for some of your wins and if my gunloggi wasn't there that madruger woulda ripped your suit to shreds. And btw keep in mind swarm = LIGHT av weapon their damage should not be on par or greater than the forge gun ( forge gun = HEAVY av weapon). This is like saying a 40mm grenade launcher should deal the same destruction as a 120mm howitzer ( not literally) . Tell you what why don't you get a madruger or a gunloggi and see what happen when you have 3 guys even with standard swarms team up on you. You know why tankers are unhappy? We have to deal with dropships, enemy installations, rooftop forge gunners, enemy tanks, orbitals ( we basically have a bullseye on our tanks) and infantrymen who aren't gonna be happy until they solo a tank with militia swarm, like you said " they're tanks for heaven's sake" and a "tank" should not be crippled by a single soldier. Lets ignore that everything you listed infantry players have to worry about as well in addition to every other weapon in the game Lets ignore that there are many real world single man portable weapons capable of destroying a MBT since this is a game But lets focus on "One person should not be able to destroy a tank" Tell me why you think that, "Because its a tank" is not an answer Is it because of the SP investment? How about the fact that getting a weapon, modules, core skills and a frame to carry all that has a comparable cost but with more empty SP sinks with no benefit Is it the ISK cost? If so then please explain to me why you support pay to win Im all ears
Lol of course you want to ignore all things that could be hitting a tanker at once, because you don't know what it's like. Please go away.
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1220
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:31:00 -
[65] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Void Echo wrote:Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps. And tanks are difficult? Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now. they are the hardest class to use in the game, if they were as easy as you say they are, 100% of dust would be using them you ******* idiot Tell that to the nova knife scout and pretty much everyone not running ar. I mean I took a miltia tank and killed a DS and its crew, within 3mins, the reason most people don't do tanks is because they haven't skilled, but it sure as hell is not the hardest class in the game!
Oh wow, you killed someone that doesn't know how to escape and evade in a dropship, so hard to do.
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1220
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:32:00 -
[66] - Quote
echo47 wrote:Void Echo wrote:Atiim wrote:True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps. And tanks are difficult? Aside from redline AV and 2 idiots on high towers with IAFGs (who QQ about them simultaneously), tanks are quite possibly the easiest thing in the game right now. they are the hardest class to use in the game, if they were as easy as you say they are, 100% of dust would be using them you ******* idiot Not the hardest class. They just take a lot of skill points (too many), and are too expensive.
Do you even tank?
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1220
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:40:00 -
[67] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Benjamin Ciscko wrote:
What good is unlimited ammo when you can't see the swarms or the swarmer let alone hit him.
FG's obliterate tanks SL's obliterate tanks PLC needs a buff and it's a weapon if it can be used to kill tanks.
by design
Common sense/ by design, you can also use a tank of your own to kill it fulfilling multiple rolls (BTW I can waffle stomp at least five of your best fit tanks at the same time)
Your complaining you can't take something out that costs more SP than you put in the counter. It doesn't take Much SP to run proto lets see IA FG 650k SP prof. V 342k ADV heavy roughly 1mil SP complex DMG mods roughly 1mil sp so for only about 3m SP you can destroy some who has invested millions more SP. Also those DMG mods will help out your HMG heavy and other suits your ADV suit will as well the mill I have in Large hybrid turrets doesn't apply any where else nor the SP in HAV command, armor adaptation, armor upgrades, repping, plates and the list goes on.
The invisible swarms is a glitch that can only be fixed by CCP. And it is a glitch so you can't blame the user for it. I'm not gonna fire a warning shot at you to see whether or not my swarms are invisible. You make a lot of assumptions. And yeah It takes way more than 650k to get any weapon at level 5/prof 5. try again. The Grenadier skill, the core skills it takes to even have enough CPU/PG to run the gear and have room for complex damage mods, the range amplifiers, the skill for a dropsuit itself is a decent SP sink within itself. Complaining about not being able to destroy tanks? Almost all of my corp members carry PRO AV, so not destroying a tank is something that rarely happens. I currently have around an equal amount of SP invested into AV and Tanks, and that SP was so easy to gain. (If 2 weeks could be considered easy). Won't help on anything else? I find that hilarious because my armor regeneration, transporting, shield boosters and shield transporters also work on my Limbus and soon to be dropship. All vehicles share the exact same core skills (save for a few maybe). The skills can be useful for more than one thing, it's just that many tankers only use it on one thing.
But it doesn't transfer to dropsuits like it used to. We had to make hard choices for Uprising 1.0, all or nothing into vehicles. The 15mil or so I have into vehicles doesn't transfer to my dropsuits. I have to do a whole other tree for that.
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1220
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:42:00 -
[68] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:
Maybe you don't understand this yet. Unlike your little infantry suit, we can't die lots of times and still make ISK. Most of the time, we can't even die once for several matches, or we won't make ISK. So dying is not in our best interests. You want us to get easily popped by AV, and I get that. But when our **** costs this much, it shouldn't happen. And it's not. Anyways, PROTO HAV's will cost a **** load if they ever come out (which I hope they don't), so if we do happen to lose 1, it will hurt. A lot. But if we have the necessary skills, it will take a good while to do so.
Anyways, I do think AV'ers are under rewarded, so damage WP's, and like a "you scared the vehicle off" WP systems for AV weapons only should be given.
I have no problem with getting WP for "scaring off" a tank. Just as long as it is given properly as opposed to "You chased of a tank, here's 5 WP." Currently it's winner takes all, leading to the "You must die at all costs" mentality. And I personally think that tanks cost way too much to be viable in it's current state, and with the supposed price of ADV and PRO tanks you can bet your @$$ that most of the playerbase will stay them. This game needs to stop catering to rich vets with 2B ISK and focus on the other 90% of it's players. HAVs truly do need a price debuff. And my strongest AV suit costs 1/2 of the price of my HAV, so I can't really afford to die that much either.
LOL Unless you're running a PRO suit, PRO sidearm, PRO swarm, PRO nanohive and all complex modules, it's not going to be that much. I have an ADV logi with 3 PRO nanohives on it and a damn Toxin SMG and it's still over 100,000 ISK. Either you're lying, or you're running the worst tanks known to Dust.
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1220
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:44:00 -
[69] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Atiim wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:
Maybe you don't understand this yet. Unlike your little infantry suit, we can't die lots of times and still make ISK. Most of the time, we can't even die once for several matches, or we won't make ISK. So dying is not in our best interests. You want us to get easily popped by AV, and I get that. But when our **** costs this much, it shouldn't happen. And it's not. Anyways, PROTO HAV's will cost a **** load if they ever come out (which I hope they don't), so if we do happen to lose 1, it will hurt. A lot. But if we have the necessary skills, it will take a good while to do so.
Anyways, I do think AV'ers are under rewarded, so damage WP's, and like a "you scared the vehicle off" WP systems for AV weapons only should be given.
I have no problem with getting WP for "scaring off" a tank. Just as long as it is given properly as opposed to "You chased of a tank, here's 5 WP." Currently it's winner takes all, leading to the "You must die at all costs" mentality. And I personally think that tanks cost way too much to be viable in it's current state, and with the supposed price of ADV and PRO tanks you can bet your @$$ that most of the playerbase will stay them. This game needs to stop catering to rich vets with 2B ISK and focus on the other 90% of it's players. HAVs truly do need a price debuff. And my strongest AV suit costs 1/2 of the price of my HAV, so I can't really afford to die that much either. 1: 5 wp's would be too low. It should be based off of how much WP's per hull size, and should give wp's based on that hull. ex. you do 750-1000 damage to a HAV. You get 15-25 wp's. You do 250-500 damage to a LAV, you get 5-15 wp's And you should be able to get a reward for it for at least 4 times before it hit a cap for a minute. Also, for the scaring away vehicle WP's if you damage a vehicle, for the damage WP's, and the pilot either recalls or doesn't get any WP's for a minute, you get whatever the hull's damage WP's is. That caps out for 2 minutes for that pilot ex. You fire at a HAV, and damage it. you get 15-25 WP's. It retreats and recalls. You get a extra 15-25 WP's. He calls it back, and you fire at it again, same scenario happens, but this time, you don't get the scaring away WP's. 2: That must be a cheap and weak HAV. My proto Av suit costs 4-16x less than my HAV's. I think 16x less is a bit of an exageration, we know you cost more, but what a lot of tankers forget, you might die once every few matches, but an infantry unit will die a few times every match, now a suit costs about 50,000+50,000+25,000+25,000+(6+ù5,000) ~ 200,000 per suit, there abouts now8w what that means in a public match if we die once, we pull in a profit of about 12,000 isk, but that is unlikely to happen. If we try to be AV for the majority of the match we can expect to die at least a dozen times, and half a dozen when we play as infantry.
Do you run full PRO at all times knowing full well that at least a squad's worth on the other team is likely using little STD gear?
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
|
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1220
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:50:00 -
[70] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Beld Errmon wrote:Tankers are wasting their breath trying to reason with the anti tank crowd, they've been molested by a tanker in the past and they won't rest till tanks are gone or OHK'd by militia swarms, they are terrible at their role and think its the tanks fault, while in PC i've seen 1 man with protoAV kill or drive off multiple tanks. I wouldn't consider myself as part of the Anti-Tank crowd, but I'll bite the apple anyway.... When have I ever said I want tanks to be OHKO'd by MLT swarms? When has anyone? PRO AV is supposed to be super strong. Against PRO AV only the strongest of the the strong tanks should survive. It is PRO. You assume that everyone here who's AV is bad at their role? You haven't even squared up with all of them (us). As I've said before, I've never said nor implied that I want vehicles removed from the game. And I challenge anyone to state the contrary. Don't resort to baseless claims and ad hominem. It just makes your arguments look weak.
You're near the top of the anti-vehicle crowd.
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
|
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1220
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:53:00 -
[71] - Quote
Canis Ferox wrote:Woka II wrote:You know why tankers are unhappy? We have to deal with dropships, enemy installations, rooftop forge gunners, enemy tanks, orbitals ( we basically have a bullseye on our tanks) and infantrymen who aren't gonna be happy until they solo a tank with militia swarm, like you said " they're tanks for heaven's sake" and a "tank" should not be crippled by a single soldier. Firstly, thank you for your contribution. However, I am never grateful for any allied tanker's assistance. More often than not, you destroy installations which are valuable to me for strategic advantage. You also harvest kills, which leaves fewer enemies for me to engage with (which is kinda the point of playing). And I don't play to win, I don't play for SP and I certainly don't play for K/D. I play to play. Also, you're complaints are quite interesting; Tankers have to put up with enemy tanks? I can't even comment on that politely. And you have a massive bullseye printed on you because you have an unbalanced ability to kill everything in sight - we need to get you down as quickly as possible and as you have clearly pointed out - it takes a large number of the opposing team to tackle you. I don't mind that, it inspires team work, but if the guns don't work then we'll need the whole team switching to AV just to kill one player.
Lol
It takes one red dot with a CBR7 to clear the field of enemy vehicles. And by that, make it so they can't be safely piloted anywhere on any map, not necessarily outright destroy them.
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
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Canis Ferox
Ultramarine Corp
5
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 10:55:00 -
[72] - Quote
Woka II wrote:
Your "strategic positions" brings more harm to your own teammates than good. "OMG A TURRET I SHOULD HACK IT!!! *2 minutes later* enemy hacks it and shoots down a friendly dropship. ...
...P.S if it takes you an entire team to take down a gunloggi, you deserve to die considering how weak a gunloggi is.
Thank you again.
I was referring to supply depots and CRUs, I already stated that turrets are nigh useless. (And yes it is possible to kill a tank with one, but only if the driver is unaware and inept. - Harpiya)
The debate here truly rises between weak and strong tanks, soka or madrugur.
I do not expect my militia swarm launcher to be able to destroy a Madrugur. I don't want it to. Neither my advanced AV grenades. But a good tank driver will never allow me to get close enough to use AV grenades of any kind. And in real world warfare tanks are heavily supported and in communication with infantrymen, drones or spy satellite. When I sit in a tank turret I spend half the time on the map directing my driver to enemy HAVs and installations. Whenever an uki comes close I hop out and gun him down. If played carefully an HAV can be invincible.
If you don't want to lose it, what is it doing sitting out in the open? Why is it sitting there waiting for another burst of swarm instead of high-tailing it into cover?
But if you're expecting to get away with prowling solo around map deep in enemy lines, soaking in missiles and bouncing off AV grenades then your view of what an FPS MMO with 31 other players in each match is downright selfish and kinda silly.
I want tanks to survive entire matches when they are supported by their team and within their own lines. I do not think the current set up is balanced. I don't believe anyone is getting enough ISK for their efforts on the battlefield. I think if you bring a tank, get 30+ kills and win the match you should get a massive payout, 1m+ ISK.
Changes I would make (with further consideration and debate of course!)
Scan profile of tanks should be vast and they should be visible to a whole team when one merc has sights on them, and it shouldn't disappear for 3 seconds! (I know this is serious and ppl should mic up and comm. but they don't - so this is the solution). HAVS could also be louder - if you were a merc on the field you would know if one was close and which direction - this doesn't come through the tv or headphones well enough.
Turrets should be either last longer, be better placed or have higher ROF.
Destroying a neutral structure should harvest 0 WP.
AV grenades should not home in and perhaps have their own skill tree.
Swarm launchers should have a Heavy version which deals significant damage.
SL target range should not be reduced (except for militia./basic and if pt.SL really are as broken as they say perhaps should not deal as much damage).
Tank flares, counter missiles, EMP bursts or some measure of defense for tanks (which require timing and skill) should be deployed!
More ISK for effort.
Even though we are not talking about dropships they should have flares too (but then they'd be invincible, no?)
NOTE: most of my changes are in support of tanks, I just want them to remain vulnerable.
If tanks are much easier to destroy it will take the fun out of killing them! But the game needs to be balanced: Give them more ISK and let me keep my AV. Then what have they to complain about?
Peace. |
Canis Ferox
Ultramarine Corp
5
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 11:04:00 -
[73] - Quote
Confusingly two people have now stated that Swarm Launchers should be equal to Forge Guns.
Er, no. FG are heavy - they weigh more. Heavy suits can carry heavier, larger and more powerful weapons. That is the point.
Otherwise you could say a scout suit should be able to carry a railgun turret so that the classes are equal. They should be balanced, not equal. Stop ruining my side of the argument with silly comments! That's my job! |
Woka II
Ultramarine Corp
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 21:09:00 -
[74] - Quote
Canis Ferox wrote:Woka II wrote:
Your "strategic positions" brings more harm to your own teammates than good. "OMG A TURRET I SHOULD HACK IT!!! *2 minutes later* enemy hacks it and shoots down a friendly dropship. ...
...P.S if it takes you an entire team to take down a gunloggi, you deserve to die considering how weak a gunloggi is.
Thank you again. I was referring to supply depots and CRUs, I already stated that turrets are nigh useless. (And yes it is possible to kill a tank with one, but only if the driver is unaware and inept. - Harpiya) The debate here truly rises between weak and strong tanks, soka or madrugur. I do not expect my militia swarm launcher to be able to destroy a Madrugur. I don't want it to. Neither my advanced AV grenades. But a good tank driver will never allow me to get close enough to use AV grenades of any kind. And in real world warfare tanks are heavily supported and in communication with infantrymen, drones or spy satellite. When I sit in a tank turret I spend half the time on the map directing my driver to enemy HAVs and installations. Whenever an uki comes close I hop out and gun him down. If played carefully an HAV can be invincible. If you don't want to lose it, what is it doing sitting out in the open? Why is it sitting there waiting for another burst of swarm instead of high-tailing it into cover? But if you're expecting to get away with prowling solo around map deep in enemy lines, soaking in missiles and bouncing off AV grenades then your view of what an FPS MMO with 31 other players in each match is downright selfish and kinda silly. I want tanks to survive entire matches when they are supported by their team and within their own lines. I do not think the current set up is balanced. I don't believe anyone is getting enough ISK for their efforts on the battlefield. I think if you bring a tank, get 30+ kills and win the match you should get a massive payout, 1m+ ISK. Changes I would make (with further consideration and debate of course!) Scan profile of tanks should be vast and they should be visible to a whole team when one merc has sights on them, and it shouldn't disappear for 3 seconds! (I know this is serious and ppl should mic up and comm. but they don't - so this is the solution). HAVS could also be louder - if you were a merc on the field you would know if one was close and which direction - this doesn't come through the tv or headphones well enough. Turrets should be either last longer, be better placed or have higher ROF. Destroying a neutral structure should harvest 0 WP. AV grenades should not home in and perhaps have their own skill tree. Swarm launchers should have a Heavy version which deals significant damage. SL target range should not be reduced (except for militia./basic and if pt.SL really are as broken as they say perhaps should not deal as much damage). Tank flares, counter missiles, EMP bursts or some measure of defense for tanks (which require timing and skill) should be deployed! More ISK for effort. Even though we are not talking about dropships they should have flares too (but then they'd be invincible, no?) NOTE: most of my changes are in support of tanks, I just want them to remain vulnerable. If tanks are much easier to destroy it will take the fun out of killing them! But the game needs to be balanced: Give them more ISK and let me keep my AV. Then what have they to complain about? Peace.
Coulda stated that before our argument started but whatever the past is the past. I do agree with most of your suggestions a bump from me. Also for the record I won't blow up sd and cru unless my sq lead orders it. As far as I'm concerned I'm a support unit for my corp mates on the ground. |
Xender17
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
924
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 21:23:00 -
[75] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Void Echo wrote:Atiim wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:What in the actual **** is wrong with you......... Truth hurts doesn't it? pilots are still the only thing keeping you from turning this game into another call of duty. (Ok I'm fed up with this, please stop using excess line breaks in your posts.) Really? I thought the mass diversity and the fact that everyone isn't a tryhard KD/R scrub is what kept this from becoming a CoD clone. You give yourself way too much credit. And it's AV that prevents this from becoming TANK 514. And I expect a new release of "Wirykomi" 514 in the next update.
Its the limit of 5 vehicles aloud in a match that stops it.
I have been a tankers for around 9 months. I main gunnlogis (which most people know is a bad idea.)
I also have been AV for around 5 months.
Proto SLs and ADV FGs.
I can still honestly say AV is OP.
This games balance is centered around ISK and SP.
Who do think would win? someone std ARs or someone with proto?
The proto spent more money and more SP.
Of course they would win.
Why should it be any different for vehicles.
We spend 10 times the isk and more than double the SP on our fittings yet we will still die once a match and get sent back 4 games.
I don't speak on behalf of madrugar HAVs however. Which most people would inform you I am highly biased towards.
What the fox say?
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8213
The Neutral Zone
678
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 21:40:00 -
[76] - Quote
This reminds me of the cival rights movement in the United States. People were kept separate and lived off their prejudice.
HAV operators and AV guys usually never share the same Skillset. HAVs don't see how hard AV can be to use against a HAV with double 25% Hardeners. And AV guys don't realize that HAV guys lose more ISK than they earn everyday. One HAV costs you about 2-4 Public match (Not including Enforcer HAVs which cost millions) earnings.
The HAV is no match for a FG on high ground. Except a Railgun Turret... which is a USELESS Turret to fit on an HAV.
The infantry clone is no match for a Turret driving onto the battlefield...
You people need to co-mingle more and realize what the other goes through, and realize you are both fighting the same fight. There is not enough of this in DUST 514 in general. Hence why the community is so divided despite the fact that it's tiny. |
cooldudesuper1
The Tickle Monsters
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 21:42:00 -
[77] - Quote
god... if my main PSN diddent get suspended from here for a while, ida replyed how you think... have you ever been 3 shotted by a wiyrokomi WITH all of your modules on? i have, 3 swarm shots do 12372 in a period of 5.2 secs, a forge dose more damage than a proto railgun,(NEEDS NERF BAD!!!!) swrms deserve this large nerf, the forge gun STILL needs one. pro tankers take alot of hurt from those supposedly 'hard to one man army' a tank, if theres one, a tank MIGHT live, if theres 2, its screwed, if three? just god... |
Michael Epic
The Neutral Zone
144
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 21:44:00 -
[78] - Quote
I'm so sick and tired of getting proto-stomped by million dollar tanks....I'm going to get myself a nice set of swarm launchers and flaylock pistols and start camping out on the map and costing every single one of them millions of isk.
I mean seriously....camping a tank at an indoor objective just right so you can shoot anyone who tries to hack it? Smart. For sure...but ridiculous.
I'm coming for you mf's |
Beld Errmon
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
1114
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 22:04:00 -
[79] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Beld Errmon wrote:Tankers are wasting their breath trying to reason with the anti tank crowd, they've been molested by a tanker in the past and they won't rest till tanks are gone or OHK'd by militia swarms, they are terrible at their role and think its the tanks fault, while in PC i've seen 1 man with protoAV kill or drive off multiple tanks. I wouldn't consider myself as part of the Anti-Tank crowd, but I'll bite the apple anyway.... When have I ever said I want tanks to be OHKO'd by MLT swarms? When has anyone? PRO AV is supposed to be super strong. Against PRO AV only the strongest of the the strong tanks should survive. It is PRO. You assume that everyone here who's AV is bad at their role? You haven't even squared up with all of them (us). As I've said before, I've never said nor implied that I want vehicles removed from the game. And I challenge anyone to state the contrary. Don't resort to baseless claims and ad hominem. It just makes your arguments look weak.
Why anyone replies to you is beyond my ability to reason, I think you spend most of your time on this forum reliving your high school debate club dreams, I've got some Latin for you to buddy Pedicabo ego vado vos. |
Canis Ferox
Ultramarine Corp
6
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 18:04:00 -
[80] - Quote
I am well aware of how irrelevent this is, but out of interest; let's bring the HAV vs Infantry debate into the real world.
Russian T-72 tank ($1 - 2million) being brutaled by a well placed M-72 LAW ($876K) in this video just after 26.00 min:
http://youtu.be/rd_8E_KSY0o
However I have completely failed to find a decent US tank being completely destroyed due to enemy fire, although a few have been disabled or severely damaged due to big IEDs (eg one article said 37.5Kg - 83 pounds). Only one, in Iraq, in 2003 seems to have been immobilized by an RPG which pierced the engine and this was then fully destroyed by the US themselves to prevent capture.
Therefore I have partially discredited my own argument by bringing this in: Perhaps Marauders should be utter invincible! Then they could be disabled, capturable and repairable - at cost to the owner. Recalling a tank should be possible if it's smoking, certainly, but with a charge? 10,000 ISK?
I don't really care. I just want the game to be balanced. |
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Canis Ferox
Ultramarine Corp
8
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 13:08:00 -
[81] - Quote
"Quote:And Lo, CCP spake and did say; Blessed are the Tank Drivers, whom from this point will flourish like spring lambs born forth in to the field and go merrily about the battle place reigning His mighty terror on the people, undisturbed by the Swarms and AVs which will fall like light spring rain on their hulls as they are under His protection and cannot be harmed."
-Book of Armaments, verse 9, chapter 12 |
Justicar Karnellia
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
Caldari State
226
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 13:23:00 -
[82] - Quote
Interestingly enough you were right in many ways.... sorry I didn't see your thread before. I had just started this thread today which pretty much says what you are saying, in a different way:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=127327&find=unread |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
1852
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 13:27:00 -
[83] - Quote
OP is wrong
Balance has been achieved
FG is the hard vehicle counter, tank v tank is the main way
Get gud |
Slag Emberforge
Immortal Retribution
236
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 13:35:00 -
[84] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:OP is wrong
Balance has been achieved
FG is the hard vehicle counter, tank v tank is the main way
Get gud
Says the tank scrub.
But hey, I guess AV weapons should only tickle tanks? Should we be shooting poultry out if our forge guns? it's about as effective as that ATM, that is if you don't die during that increased spool time.
Vehicle vs vehicle counter is not effective, we heard no end to the crying that tower forges could only be countered by other forgers, yet you defend that only tanks should kill tanks? You sire are a hypocrite of the worst sort. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
1852
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 13:42:00 -
[85] - Quote
Slag Emberforge wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:OP is wrong
Balance has been achieved
FG is the hard vehicle counter, tank v tank is the main way
Get gud Says the tank scrub. But hey, I guess AV weapons should only tickle tanks? Should we be shooting poultry out if our forge guns? it's about as effective as that ATM, that is if you don't die during that increased spool time. Vehicle vs vehicle counter is not effective, we heard no end to the crying that tower forges could only be countered by other forgers, yet you defend that only tanks should kill tanks? You sire are a hypocrite of the worst sort.
FG are still very effective
I dunno what you are doing? oh hang on yes i do your trying to solo vehicles again
Vehicle vs vehicle is very effective, i have done it a fair few times
Tower forge controled 100% of the map with just 1 person and did clear all and every vehicle with ease, now vehicles have some teeth and survivabilty they are now classed as UP
Get gud scrub |
taxi bastard
Minor Trueblood
60
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 13:46:00 -
[86] - Quote
I have an alt with 500-600k SP's in vehicle mods/HAV skills
you do not need many SP's - they are broken. they are dirt cheap
try it yourself on an alt. |
Darken-Sol
BIG BAD W0LVES
779
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 13:53:00 -
[87] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:AV= too easy right now
I like the proposed changes because that way we will see more vehicles on the maps.
I was hoping to see some beast tanks. Nope. I haven't found one I can't drive off with a well fit soma. |
Slag Emberforge
Immortal Retribution
239
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 14:23:00 -
[88] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Slag Emberforge wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:OP is wrong
Balance has been achieved
FG is the hard vehicle counter, tank v tank is the main way
Get gud Says the tank scrub. But hey, I guess AV weapons should only tickle tanks? Should we be shooting poultry out if our forge guns? it's about as effective as that ATM, that is if you don't die during that increased spool time. Vehicle vs vehicle counter is not effective, we heard no end to the crying that tower forges could only be countered by other forgers, yet you defend that only tanks should kill tanks? You sire are a hypocrite of the worst sort. FG are still very effective I dunno what you are doing? oh hang on yes i do your trying to solo vehicles again Vehicle vs vehicle is very effective, i have done it a fair few times Tower forge controled 100% of the map with just 1 person and did clear all and every vehicle with ease, now vehicles have some teeth and survivabilty they are now classed as UP Get gud scrub
1. FG have the capacity to take out HAVs that does not mean they are effective or efficient.
2. V vs AV. Has to be 1 to 1 or you generate an empirical advantage similar to having more players on one side than the other, this is not balance.
3. Sorry that was a typo from posting on a smart phone, that is not an EFFICIENT design, vehicles should not be the primary counter, this is basically stating, herpaderp whoever has more tanks should win automatically. Somehow I don't agree with your version of tank 514. This game is about mercenaries first and vehicles are an asset, but not an absolute necessity.
4. Tanks control whatever area they are in, also your claim is mitigated by the fact that map design was the game breaking feature, and there were many other weapons that also took heavy advantage of tower usage ( see mass driver, sniper rifle, swarm launcher, grenade spammers)
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chase rowland
The Enclave Syndicate
Dark Taboo
110
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 14:32:00 -
[89] - Quote
Atiim wrote:I kinda agree with you but at the same time I want to slap you in the face and ask "WTF is your problem"?
I hate using both things sometimes.
can we slap him yet? |
Lazy Scumbag
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
72
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Posted - 2013.12.11 14:32:00 -
[90] - Quote
All they needed to change was the pricing. Tanks were already invincible versus infantry, and helpless against AV. Thought that was the point. Now we have purpose built weapons at proto level that are at best, a minor annoyance to HAVs. The problem was that the loss of an HAV required too much time grinding to replace it. |
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
316
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 14:51:00 -
[91] - Quote
Lazy Scumbag wrote:All they needed to change was the pricing. Tanks were already invincible versus infantry, and helpless against AV. Thought that was the point. Now we have purpose built weapons at proto level that are at best, a minor annoyance to HAVs. The problem was that the loss of an HAV required too much time grinding to replace it.
You are right pricing was one great issue but it seems balancing for CCP is an all or nothing attempt. If they nerf they nerf pretty hard and if they buff they buff very hard. In the case of AV vs Vehicles they did both buffed Vehicles and nerfed AV thats why we have the current mess.
But at least RE's are an alternative to some degree... |
Justicar Karnellia
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
Caldari State
228
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Posted - 2013.12.11 15:04:00 -
[92] - Quote
Slag Emberforge wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Slag Emberforge wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:OP is wrong
Balance has been achieved
FG is the hard vehicle counter, tank v tank is the main way
Get gud Says the tank scrub. But hey, I guess AV weapons should only tickle tanks? Should we be shooting poultry out if our forge guns? it's about as effective as that ATM, that is if you don't die during that increased spool time. Vehicle vs vehicle counter is not effective, we heard no end to the crying that tower forges could only be countered by other forgers, yet you defend that only tanks should kill tanks? You sire are a hypocrite of the worst sort. FG are still very effective I dunno what you are doing? oh hang on yes i do your trying to solo vehicles again Vehicle vs vehicle is very effective, i have done it a fair few times Tower forge controled 100% of the map with just 1 person and did clear all and every vehicle with ease, now vehicles have some teeth and survivabilty they are now classed as UP Get gud scrub 1. FG have the capacity to take out HAVs that does not mean they are effective or efficient. 2. V vs AV. Has to be 1 to 1 or you generate an empirical advantage similar to having more players on one side than the other, this is not balance. ...
Exactly... it's not really hard to understand. If the only hard counter to a tank is another tank OR you need a numerical AV advantage, then the people with the most Tanks win - simple. It changes the dynamics of the game. I can guarantee you CCP don't want their game turning into Tanks 514. If they did, they'd remove the vehicle limit. If they let things stand the way they are, you can guarantee everyone will be speccing into Tanks. I'm sure some people are thinking about it right now after being steamrolled. |
pegasis prime
BIG BAD W0LVES
1409
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Posted - 2013.12.11 15:24:00 -
[93] - Quote
ill give my feed back on gunlogis as when 1.7 hit I maxed everything shield wise and turret wise so my feed back will only come from the high end hav perspective.
first off the modules
shield hardners - I only run complex for their active time and lower turn over cycle. now I think the 60% damage reduction is fine at complex level but feel the damage reduction should be lessened for the lower mods say 55% at adv and 50% at std. keeping all cooldowns in place this would balance the modules out. Now shield hardeners might seem op if you are engaging a tank while they are active but the max they will run for is about 42 seconds and cool down for 45 seconds so you have plenty of opportunity to destroy the hav when it reaches cool down and having a slightly less active time balances this out.
Shield boosters - Absolutely fantastic they give just enough hp over the right time period for burst tanking, any less they'd be useless any more they'd be op. over all they give just a little more hp than pre 1.7 but over a much shorter period.
shield extenders- Shield extenders in particular the heavy ones are nice for buffering fire while you make your cool down run but once your hardeners are on it doesn't matter if you have 2000 shields or 4000 shields as the damage is absorbed by the hardeners but youll be thankfull of them when your on cooldown.
damage mods- wow really pack a punch, no really they do
Ammo cashe- works as intended gives you that little bit more staying power before you need to resupply.
pg upgrades - work as intended
Turrets
Large missile - brilliant weapon with excellent burst damage capabilities but with the long reload times it really is a hit and run turret.
Large blasters - Work quite similarly to pre1.7 with better hit detection and
Rails- love them but their anti infantry power has been severely reduced unless you have higher ground.
now tanks have been through a major over haul and well see a lot of different fits on the field . tank battles now no longer have 2 tanks roll up and just shoot until the other is dead it takes allot to out tank another tank now but it can be done. AV vrs tanks ive found forge guns still pack a punch and will cut through shield hardners as will plasma cannons surprisingly enough , swarms wont even dent your shields when your hardeners are active but will destroy you quicker than a forge once your on cool down. over all tank combat has been awesome and I have lost a few tanks to av but more tanks to other tanks I hope the fights iv been having over the past day carry on.
Its gone from suck .....to blow
level 1 forum warrior
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Tac Com
Sanguis Defense Syndicate
82
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Posted - 2013.12.11 18:22:00 -
[94] - Quote
To add to what pegasis wrote, there is a big component that is being overlooked which our squad employed to great effectiveness. That is the use of teamwork with the tanks. HAVs are mostly being used as solo machines but last night we had a 2-3 guys (including myself) which proceeded to clean house.
The first was using a tank combination which very much mimics the old infantry combo of a sniper spotter and your ground forces. So we had a tank (blaster or missile) which did the close engagements, but a rail tank up high to spot targets and cover the other tank. This extra firepower typically resulted in both our tanks surviving the match while getting multiple tank kills.
The other which is even more overlooked now due to turrets being removable, is having someone in a small turret. With a blaster tank, we preferred to have a small rail on the top turret only. This small turret does a respectable amount of DPS and helps to provide some long range cover to an otherwise short range tank. Again, playing in this configuration, we went 12/1 in tank K/D over 2 matches.
The role of AV though has clearly shifted. To kill any tank, whether it's TvT or IvT, you need multiple people to reliably kill the tank. That said though, you need only one to reliably deny the tank area presence. We've had to back out of many fights due to a well placed swarm or forge user as continuing to press on would have resulted in our deaths. This left our squad without vehicle support and other tank at the time did clean them up. In many ways, even if you don't kill the tank, keeping the tank out of the fight is also a big win for your team and doesn't take a lot of people to do.
I'll be testing more stuff out tonight. Until then... |
Jacques Cayton II
Providence Guard
Templis Dragonaors
264
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Posted - 2013.12.11 18:34:00 -
[95] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:What in the actual **** is wrong with you.........
Tanks were balanced but they were only STANDARD FRAMES you guys still have ADV & PROTO now it's just poop imagine a surya or a sagaris now
We fight for the future of the State not our
personal goals
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Lynn Beck
Granite Mercenary Division
Top Men.
329
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Posted - 2013.12.11 19:08:00 -
[96] - Quote
I call a buff to soma turning speed, and make the sica's base shield recharge delay higher.
Rails on a sica is fun as hell, and the ability to take a forge hit and say 'holy **** activate hardener and roll out!' Is beter than 'oh shi-'
Hp wise i love it. Mobility moght be too high ATM though.
Under 28db
Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14)
I haz knife. Me get steak?
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8213
BIG BAD W0LVES
1031
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Posted - 2013.12.12 03:18:00 -
[97] - Quote
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Tanks and their counterpart AV have become broken even more... ... ...
"You're 47,000 ISK Swarm shouldn't be able to take down my tank. My tank costs the price of 5 of your AV dropsuit fittings!"
Well now tankers know what it's like to rule the map in a tank that costs less than a dropsuit fitting.
Tankers wanted their investment protect. Now they have no investment and insane protection...
Good job tanks, you got what you wanted. Now we should all enjoy it until its gets nerfed to the ground so hard, you'll be begging for your 1.6 HAV settings to come back (which were more than adequate btw) and still not getting the core mechanics fixed... |
chase rowland
The Enclave Syndicate
Dark Taboo
112
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 14:09:00 -
[98] - Quote
8213 wrote:Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Tanks and their counterpart AV have become broken even more... ... ...
"You're 47,000 ISK Swarm shouldn't be able to take down my tank. My tank costs the price of 5 of your AV dropsuit fittings!"
Well now tankers know what it's like to rule the map in a tank that costs less than a dropsuit fitting.
Tankers wanted their investment protect. Now they have no investment and insane protection...
Good job tanks, you got what you wanted. Now we should all enjoy it until its gets nerfed to the ground so hard, you'll be begging for your 1.6 HAV settings to come back (which were more than adequate btw) and still not getting the core mechanics fixed...
hmm so its either have a tank that's near useless and cost a fortune or have a tank that's actually viable and costs as much as a derpsuit.... I wonder what to pick? really dude? how about we nerf everything you got to uselessness for a year? asshol3 |
Slag Emberforge
Immortal Retribution
261
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 14:26:00 -
[99] - Quote
chase rowland wrote:8213 wrote:Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Tanks and their counterpart AV have become broken even more... ... ...
"You're 47,000 ISK Swarm shouldn't be able to take down my tank. My tank costs the price of 5 of your AV dropsuit fittings!"
Well now tankers know what it's like to rule the map in a tank that costs less than a dropsuit fitting.
Tankers wanted their investment protect. Now they have no investment and insane protection...
Good job tanks, you got what you wanted. Now we should all enjoy it until its gets nerfed to the ground so hard, you'll be begging for your 1.6 HAV settings to come back (which were more than adequate btw) and still not getting the core mechanics fixed... hmm so its either have a tank that's near useless and cost a fortune or have a tank that's actually viable and costs as much as a derpsuit.... I wonder what to pick? really dude? how about we nerf everything you got to uselessness for a year? asshol3
If tanks were useless for you in 1.6 you are a scrub, serious tankers had no problem being competitive and good tankers rarely died unless there were multiple AV on the other side, or the tanker had gotten careless.
It was mostly militia scrubs that I blew up every match, admittedly I have destroyed many tanks, but they still had the ability to kill me as well. It was COMPETITIVE. Not like this completely one sided bullshit it is now.
Also please stifle your allegations, heavies have been mistreated and nerfed since chromosome. |
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