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Canis Ferox
Ultramarine Corp
1
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Posted - 2013.11.09 22:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
Gentlemen.
Let's get this all out in the open so we can look at the arguments clearly. I want everyone here to openly express how they feel about possessing an Heavy Attack Vehicle (HAV, tank) or being endlessly owned by tanks. About being stung by lazily flung AV grenades and about watching your swarm launcher missiles ping like popping candy off the armour of a seething enemy juggernaut.
And brothers, let me make clear my bias, please: I hate tanks. - I love watching them burn. I love to stand on a dark night out in the wastes with a smoking SL in my hand, listening to enemy clones fizz and crackle while they slow-roast in the pouring black, oily smoke of a tank's carcass; - a warm glow on my face and a cheer in my heart.
And why shouldn't I? I'm an infantryman, they mess my game up. I don't really mind them being there, it's just EveryThing I have to kill them is ineffective.
Let's start with turrets. Noone ever talks about turrets vs tanks, but they are there, on the battlefield. The only purpose I've seen them put to is collecting war points; which, by the way, should be cut out immediately.
Swarm Launchers (SL), bounce. They should lock on to heavies because at least they'd be worth using. I know that prototype (pt.) SL do actually kill tanks and tear apart dropships, but we're not talking about dropships (understand?).
Anti Vehicle (AV) grenades are effective against Baby tanks*. But Mummy tanks just get angry and Daddy tanks..** (YEs I am taking this analogy all the way!) ...Daddy tanks just laugh in the face of a combined AV, swarm launcher assault, turn around and stomp you!
[*Here I am referring to Militia HAV.. **Such as an armour-tanked Gunnlogi with arma-rep'er]
HAVs are not OP. High SP, super ISK tanks should not deal any less damage. They shouldnGÇÖt have less armour, I donGÇÖt think, they are tanks for heavenGÇÖs sake. But hereGÇÖs the point I am making: Anti Vehicle grenades and Swarm Launchers are ANTI-Tank. So they should be able to destroy tanks or do significant damage.
IF YOUR argument as an inexperience tank driver (I donGÇÖt hear any pros* complaining, do you?) is that GÇ£Anti VehicleGÇ¥ weapons, which force the user to abandon hopes at attacking or defending himself against other infantry, which highlight that players position and weaponry choice gloriously, which waste so much time in changing fits, avoiding enemies and chasing fast tanks around the map on foot and abandoned LAVsGǪ then your argument is plainly wrong sir and you should face the facts that proposed v1.7 nerfing of AV will certainly result in a surge of tank-filled matches and the total inability of anyone to deal with even the lowest tank drivers - who are the ones lobbying to turn Dust into one of those hacked matches HALO combat evolved that only drunk people played!*
*I am describing an idiot and if youGÇÖre wondering whether or not thatGÇÖs you then I canGÇÖt tell you that it is.
Discuss. |
Canis Ferox
Ultramarine Corp
4
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Posted - 2013.11.11 08:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Woka II wrote:You know why tankers are unhappy? We have to deal with dropships, enemy installations, rooftop forge gunners, enemy tanks, orbitals ( we basically have a bullseye on our tanks) and infantrymen who aren't gonna be happy until they solo a tank with militia swarm, like you said " they're tanks for heaven's sake" and a "tank" should not be crippled by a single soldier.
Firstly, thank you for your contribution. However, I am never grateful for any allied tanker's assistance. More often than not, you destroy installations which are valuable to me for strategic advantage. You also harvest kills, which leaves fewer enemies for me to engage with (which is kinda the point of playing). And I don't play to win, I don't play for SP and I certainly don't play for K/D.
I play to play.
Also, you're complaints are quite interesting; Tankers have to put up with enemy tanks? I can't even comment on that politely. And you have a massive bullseye printed on you because you have an unbalanced ability to kill everything in sight - we need to get you down as quickly as possible and as you have clearly pointed out - it takes a large number of the opposing team to tackle you. I don't mind that, it inspires team work, but if the guns don't work then we'll need the whole team switching to AV just to kill one player. |
Canis Ferox
Ultramarine Corp
5
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Posted - 2013.11.12 10:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
dogmanpig wrote:i not going to get dragged into this nerf tanks thread, it only takes one av guy to kill any tank and if you can't then your a scrub.
Thank you for your heart-felt contribution dogpigman and welcome to the debate at large, the one you're not getting dragged into. Well done.
=] |
Canis Ferox
Ultramarine Corp
5
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Posted - 2013.11.12 10:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Woka II wrote:
Your "strategic positions" brings more harm to your own teammates than good. "OMG A TURRET I SHOULD HACK IT!!! *2 minutes later* enemy hacks it and shoots down a friendly dropship. ...
...P.S if it takes you an entire team to take down a gunloggi, you deserve to die considering how weak a gunloggi is.
Thank you again.
I was referring to supply depots and CRUs, I already stated that turrets are nigh useless. (And yes it is possible to kill a tank with one, but only if the driver is unaware and inept. - Harpiya)
The debate here truly rises between weak and strong tanks, soka or madrugur.
I do not expect my militia swarm launcher to be able to destroy a Madrugur. I don't want it to. Neither my advanced AV grenades. But a good tank driver will never allow me to get close enough to use AV grenades of any kind. And in real world warfare tanks are heavily supported and in communication with infantrymen, drones or spy satellite. When I sit in a tank turret I spend half the time on the map directing my driver to enemy HAVs and installations. Whenever an uki comes close I hop out and gun him down. If played carefully an HAV can be invincible.
If you don't want to lose it, what is it doing sitting out in the open? Why is it sitting there waiting for another burst of swarm instead of high-tailing it into cover?
But if you're expecting to get away with prowling solo around map deep in enemy lines, soaking in missiles and bouncing off AV grenades then your view of what an FPS MMO with 31 other players in each match is downright selfish and kinda silly.
I want tanks to survive entire matches when they are supported by their team and within their own lines. I do not think the current set up is balanced. I don't believe anyone is getting enough ISK for their efforts on the battlefield. I think if you bring a tank, get 30+ kills and win the match you should get a massive payout, 1m+ ISK.
Changes I would make (with further consideration and debate of course!)
Scan profile of tanks should be vast and they should be visible to a whole team when one merc has sights on them, and it shouldn't disappear for 3 seconds! (I know this is serious and ppl should mic up and comm. but they don't - so this is the solution). HAVS could also be louder - if you were a merc on the field you would know if one was close and which direction - this doesn't come through the tv or headphones well enough.
Turrets should be either last longer, be better placed or have higher ROF.
Destroying a neutral structure should harvest 0 WP.
AV grenades should not home in and perhaps have their own skill tree.
Swarm launchers should have a Heavy version which deals significant damage.
SL target range should not be reduced (except for militia./basic and if pt.SL really are as broken as they say perhaps should not deal as much damage).
Tank flares, counter missiles, EMP bursts or some measure of defense for tanks (which require timing and skill) should be deployed!
More ISK for effort.
Even though we are not talking about dropships they should have flares too (but then they'd be invincible, no?)
NOTE: most of my changes are in support of tanks, I just want them to remain vulnerable.
If tanks are much easier to destroy it will take the fun out of killing them! But the game needs to be balanced: Give them more ISK and let me keep my AV. Then what have they to complain about?
Peace. |
Canis Ferox
Ultramarine Corp
5
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Posted - 2013.11.12 11:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Confusingly two people have now stated that Swarm Launchers should be equal to Forge Guns.
Er, no. FG are heavy - they weigh more. Heavy suits can carry heavier, larger and more powerful weapons. That is the point.
Otherwise you could say a scout suit should be able to carry a railgun turret so that the classes are equal. They should be balanced, not equal. Stop ruining my side of the argument with silly comments! That's my job! |
Canis Ferox
Ultramarine Corp
6
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Posted - 2013.11.14 18:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
I am well aware of how irrelevent this is, but out of interest; let's bring the HAV vs Infantry debate into the real world.
Russian T-72 tank ($1 - 2million) being brutaled by a well placed M-72 LAW ($876K) in this video just after 26.00 min:
http://youtu.be/rd_8E_KSY0o
However I have completely failed to find a decent US tank being completely destroyed due to enemy fire, although a few have been disabled or severely damaged due to big IEDs (eg one article said 37.5Kg - 83 pounds). Only one, in Iraq, in 2003 seems to have been immobilized by an RPG which pierced the engine and this was then fully destroyed by the US themselves to prevent capture.
Therefore I have partially discredited my own argument by bringing this in: Perhaps Marauders should be utter invincible! Then they could be disabled, capturable and repairable - at cost to the owner. Recalling a tank should be possible if it's smoking, certainly, but with a charge? 10,000 ISK?
I don't really care. I just want the game to be balanced. |
Canis Ferox
Ultramarine Corp
8
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Posted - 2013.12.11 13:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
"Quote:And Lo, CCP spake and did say; Blessed are the Tank Drivers, whom from this point will flourish like spring lambs born forth in to the field and go merrily about the battle place reigning His mighty terror on the people, undisturbed by the Swarms and AVs which will fall like light spring rain on their hulls as they are under His protection and cannot be harmed."
-Book of Armaments, verse 9, chapter 12 |
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