if there is one thing i hate more than cod its a unconstructive post and ive yet to see one like the one im about to reveal. the wars between avers and tankers needs to stop. avers want tankers easy to blow up and not worth speccing into. this means for you avers, if you get a buff and tanks get a nerf, you wont have anything to kill with them proto swarm or lai dai grenade. tankers, if we didnt have demented avers suiciding in our red line trying to kill us and keep us under locks, than infantry would be scarce and we wouldnt have anything to kill. if either gets nerfed to the ground it means we are screwed. nobody seems to see this but me. as for my opinion of balance, wp should be given for every thousand damage you do to tanks but not devastate tanks and blow them to bits. its not right that a guy running solo grenades that cost 10k and a swarm at 50k can blow up a 2 mill tank so you really need to consider balancing av too. we already lose plenty when we face other tankers. i really hope ccp takes this into account with 1.6 pretty soon(tm), but we need proto tanks back if we are going against this becouse this is just sad. ccp you shoulda nerfed the blaster turret instead of the tank if it was that big a deal. if you get 1.6 wrong ccp, i fear most for you. you already lost most of your good tankers. now everyone has av and tanking is a dying art. others feel free to leave comments and thoughts about this but please, dont act like a 8 year old and argue. this game needs balance, not brainless chimps throwing **** at eachother. and im a aver too so dont even try to critisize me.

Shoot, I was looking for the post to end the war... and all I got was a wall of text.

if there is one thing i hate more than cod its a unconstructive post and ive yet to see one like the one im about to reveal. the wars between avers and tankers needs to stop. avers want tankers easy to blow up and not worth speccing into. this means for you avers, if you get a buff and tanks get a nerf, you wont have anything to kill with them proto swarm or lai dai grenade. tankers, if we didnt have demented avers suiciding in our red line trying to kill us and keep us under locks, than infantry would be scarce and we wouldnt have anything to kill. if either gets nerfed to the ground it means we are screwed. nobody seems to see this but me. as for my opinion of balance, wp should be given for every thousand damage you do to tanks but not devastate tanks and blow them to bits. its not right that a guy running solo grenades that cost 10k and a swarm at 50k can blow up a 2 mill tank so you really need to consider balancing av too. we already lose plenty when we face other tankers. i really hope ccp takes this into account with 1.6 pretty soon(tm), but we need proto tanks back if we are going against this becouse this is just sad. ccp you shoulda nerfed the blaster turret instead of the tank if it was that big a deal. if you get 1.6 wrong ccp, i fear most for you. you already lost most of your good tankers. now everyone has av and tanking is a dying art. others feel free to leave comments and thoughts about this but please, dont act like a 8 year old and argue. this game needs balance, not brainless chimps throwing **** at eachother. and im a aver too so dont even try to critisize me.

do you know the definition of enlighten? besides, only ccp could fix this mess....

If there is one thing I hate more than COD, its an unconstructive post, and I've yet to see one like the one I'm about to reveal. The wars between AV'ers and tankers needs to stop. AV'ers want tankers easy to blow up and not worth speccing into. This means for you AV'ers, if you get a buff and tanks get a nerf, you wont have anything to kill with them proto swarm or lai dai grenade. Tankers, if we didn't have demented AV'ers suiciding in our red line trying to kill us and keep us under locks, than infantry would be scarce and we wouldn't have anything to kill. If either gets nerfed to the ground it means we are screwed. Nobody seems to see this but me.


As for my opinion of balance, WP should be given for every thousand damage you do to tanks but not devastate tanks and blow them to bits. It's not right that a guy running solo grenades that cost 10k and a swarm at 50k can blow up a 2 mill tank so you really need to consider balancing AV too. We already lose plenty when we face other tankers. I really hope CCP takes this into account with 1.6 pretty Soon(tm), but we need proto tanks back if we are going against this because this is just sad. CCP you shoulda nerfed the blaster turret instead of the tank if it was that big a deal. if you get 1.6 wrong CCP, I fear most for you. You already lost most of your good tankers. Now everyone has AV and tanking is a dying art.

Others feel free to leave comments and thoughts about this but please, don't act like a 8 year old and argue. This game needs balance, not brainless chimps throwing **** at each other, and I'm an AV'er too so don't even try to critisize me.

shattered you know me well enough to know this. and i fixed it. and thats a good one crash, i just was in a rush is all

AVers should pretty much be able to dominate a lone tank that doesn't have infantry support. Maybe, and I say MAYBE 2 AVers should be required to take down a decent, lone tank. I'll say that a rough ballpark of 1-3 AVers should always defeat a lone tank, no problem (due more in part to tactics, less in part to damage). And there is one thing Tankers are forgetting/won't acknowledge. That AV dude trying to take you out? His choice of AV nades puts him/her at a massive disadvantage to me, an Assault with real nades. I don't need or want to be in your tank, but if Tankers would let me, I could protect them from AV. But they don't let me/want me to.

The RPG has been the same forever, takes almost no training to use proficiently, and is basically just a tube and an exploding shell with an impact fuse. Just a guess but I would say construction of 1 RPG tube and 1 round is well under 1000 dollars, probably closer to 100 dollars.

I understand we are playing a futuristic videogame with made up weapons and technology, but if we aren't going to follow reality in any way shape or form, then everybody (tankers included) better put on their big boy pants and get ready for MAVs, Fighters, Heavy Aircraft, and those Mechs that have been rumored to be a possibility way down the road. Because if a Tank should be able to solo with no support, then so should everything else. And if they aren't, then everyone needs to get ready for Tanker QQing multiplied by 4.

If I have a decent amount of SP into AV nades and I engage a tank in a city setting where I have boxes and stuff to hide behind and or enough cover to sneak up behind a tank, then yea, I should be able to solo a tank. The tank had no business being alone in that setting, and doesn't need a buff because of the results.

Tankers can solo all they want in Pubs, and they don't dominate. Yet most Tanker QQing seems to be in relation to Pubs, so I am naturally confused.

ok since you seem to want to be able to 1v1 a 2 mill tank, how about we make av 2 mill? different form of balance and you can still 1v1 tanks, yet you get as broke as us in the process. in the war against iraq, we sent in around 250 tanks, about 230 came back fine. so dont even get started about real life becouse if we made it like real life, then tanks would just dominate. cod isnt like real life my friend, you severely underestimate tanks.

so explain to me why you think its possible to solo tanks irl?

Oh hey, look at this interesting little tid bit-

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2005-03-29-abrams-tank-a_x.htm

You're talking about the Battle of 73 Easting Chase. Which was in 1991.

ok since you seem to want to be able to 1v1 a 2 mill tank, how about we make av 2 mill? different form of balance and you can still 1v1 tanks, yet you get as broke as us in the process. in the war against iraq, we sent in around 250 tanks, about 230 came back fine. so dont even get started about real life becouse if we made it like real life, then tanks would just dominate. cod isnt like real life my friend, you severely underestimate tanks.

so explain to me why you think its possible to solo tanks irl?

quick edit: about 80 tanks were so badly damaged that they had to be shipped back. youve done my work for me. thank you ignorent aver

CCP needs to not Buff or Nerf anything and some how make a game mode that forces Tanks and Infantry to work together. I have no idea what this mode would be. Maybe a capture the flag esq type game where a team has to hack a yellow tank then return it safely to their red line or something.

The gunner issue aside (feels to me that the gunner issue was the original issue, but after reading the forums over the past few days there is definitely a bunch of separate issues) the flaw in almost everybodys reasoning, from tankers to infantry, is that while people acknowledge team work is something required for infantry working with infantry, almost no one wants to acknowledge team work is a necessity between infantry and tanks.

AVers should pretty much be able to dominate a lone tank that doesn't have infantry support. Maybe, and I say MAYBE 2 AVers should be required to take down a decent, lone tank. I'll say that a rough ballpark of 1-3 AVers should always defeat a lone tank, no problem (due more in part to tactics, less in part to damage). And there is one thing Tankers are forgetting/won't acknowledge. That AV dude trying to take you out? His choice of AV nades puts him/her at a massive disadvantage to me, an Assault with real nades. I don't need or want to be in your tank, but if Tankers would let me, I could protect them from AV. But they don't let me/want me to.

I have seen and met a lot of REAL LIFE Military/Ex Military people here in Dust. I would like to see someone who has had REAL LIFE experience with Tanks and Tank tactics/strategy get on here and talk some sense into Dust Tankers. They would tell you that if you try and do anything with out infantry support, you are a moron and deserve the death that is coming your way. Of course, no one on here would listen to said person, so I guess that's a moot point.

In real life the 4 supposed best Main Battle Tanks (M1 Abrams, Leopard 2, Challenger 2, and AMX-56 Leclerc) cost easily into the millions of dollars to build (I wanna say the M1 Abrams is around like 54 million per tank, but i'm pulling that from memory and could be incorrect) and take massive amounts of training to make the CREW proficient.

The RPG has been the same forever, takes almost no training to use proficiently, and is basically just a tube and an exploding shell with an impact fuse. Just a guess but I would say construction of 1 RPG tube and 1 round is well under 1000 dollars, probably closer to 100 dollars.

I understand we are playing a futuristic videogame with made up weapons and technology, but if we aren't going to follow reality in any way shape or form, then everybody (tankers included) better put on their big boy pants and get ready for MAVs, Fighters, Heavy Aircraft, and those Mechs that have been rumored to be a possibility way down the road. Because if a Tank should be able to solo with no support, then so should everything else. And if they aren't, then everyone needs to get ready for Tanker QQing multiplied by 4.

EDIT: I'm not against Tank buffs. I'm against Tank buffs when considering the Tank a lone unit that doesn't work with support. I would not be against a buff that takes into consideration the fact a Tank needs to work with support forces.

Congratulations, you found a paragraph that you could pull out of context and try and use for your argument. I guess that means you win right?

What about this paragraph-

In the all-out battles of the 1991 Gulf War, only 18 Abrams tanks were lost and no soldiers in them killed. But since the March 2003 invasion of Iraq, with tanks in daily combat against the unexpectedly fierce insurgency, the Army says 80 of the 69-ton behemoths have been damaged so badly they had to be shipped back to the United States.

Did you miss that one? Or are you going to say they were just damaged and shipped home, not destroyed, so that some how validates your argument?

What about this paragraph-

Because it was designed to fight other tanks, the Abrams' heavy armor is up front. In Iraq's cities, however, insurgents sneak up from behind, fire from rooftops above and set off mines below.

Holy **** that sounds like Dust!!!

Tanks in this game get defense modules, are corralled into a tiny little bowl of land and played by players who would like to have some fun. Calling down a tank and having to roll around more methodically isn't tha same as just popping another respawn and running into bullets again and again.

Tanks should not die outright to one guy when they've timed their modules to activate and have specced up into a better tank and mods. One AV guy should be able to run them off so as to make them not be as big of a threat to infantry. That is all that is needed for balance. The better specced that one guy's AV skill is, the quicker that tank needs to book it out.

If you wnt to kill a tank you should either have to organize, chase the tank down or be smart and wait where the tank will patrol out while mods are on cooldown and vulnerable.

I know and those pesky insurgents have bad hit boxes just like Dust!

What about those soldiers that get shot but if they wait a few moments they feel better?

Nub......

true but based on real facts from the military, tanks clearly dominate avers. your lucky i gave you so much slack in my first post. instead you got aggressive so i bring facts to case. so, any more points i must clarify? you forget out of 1100 tanks 80 were destroyed. go figure.

I agree with you 100%, especially the last part. But it has to go both ways. I simply cannot accept any Tank arguments when Tanks flat out refuse to work with anyone else. A Tank with 2-4 (good) infantry supporting it on foot should be nearly unstoppable. A lone tank should be at the mercy of whatever AV is focused on it (to an extent of course).

Based on real facts from the military. That sounds official. You mind sharing the source of these real facts? I never got aggressive, and you don't need to cut me any slack. And yeah, you need to clarify all your points because the one you made in your last sentence says that 80 of the most advanced tanks on planet earth were taken out by RPGs and roadside bombs. Soooo......

cod isnt like real life my friend, you severely underestimate tanks.

quick edit: about 80 tanks were so badly damaged that they had to be shipped back. youve done my work for me. thank you ignorent aver

plus they never said anything about rpgs.

if there is one thing i hate more than cod its a unconstructive post and ive yet to see one like the one im about to reveal. the wars between avers and tankers needs to stop.

others feel free to leave comments and thoughts about this but please, dont act like a 8 year old and argue. this game needs balance, not brainless chimps throwing **** at eachother. and im a aver too so dont even try to critisize me.

First Paragraph of said article-

WASHINGTON GÇö The U.S. military's Abrams tank, designed during the Cold War to withstand the fiercest blows from the best Soviet tanks, is getting knocked out at surprising rates by the low-tech bombs and rocket-propelled grenades of Iraqi insurgents.

Oh man, Chase, you gotta be getting full. You have eaten a hell of a lot of your words over the past 30 minutes or so.

Why do tankers always try to bring in real life example and ramble on about how "its a tank it dominates everything" when in real life the niche of the MBT has been on the way out since the 90s due to large strides weapons technology keep making
Even CIWS and trophy counter measure systems designed to destroy in coming rockets and missiles to defend the tank are easily overwhelmed just by firing in volume and all it takes is on javelin to turn that million dollar tank into a pile of scrap metal

Oh my favorite is when you mention these things to counter them talking about real world examples they come back with "yeah but this is a game"

WASHINGTON GÇö The U.S. military's Abrams tank, designed during the Cold War to withstand the fiercest blows from the best Soviet tanks, is getting knocked out at surprising rates by the low-tech bombs and rocket-propelled grenades of Iraqi insurgents.

Oh man, Chase, you gotta be getting full. You have eaten a hell of a lot of your words over the past 30 minutes or so.

I agree with you 100%, especially the last part. But it has to go both ways. I simply cannot accept any Tank arguments when Tanks flat out refuse to work with anyone else. A Tank with 2-4 (good) infantry supporting it on foot should be nearly unstoppable. A lone tank should be at the mercy of whatever AV is focused on it (to an extent of course).

Why do tankers always try to bring in real life example and ramble on about how "its a tank it dominates everything" when in real life the niche of the MBT has been on the way out since the 90s due to large strides weapons technology keep making
Even CIWS and trophy counter measure systems designed to destroy in coming rockets and missiles to defend the tank are easily overwhelmed just by firing in volume and all it takes is on javelin to turn that million dollar tank into a pile of scrap metal

Oh my favorite is when you mention these things to counter them talking about real world examples they come back with "yeah but this is a game"

Yes, if it's mods are down it is vulnerable. Also, without support it will be getting hit with impunity. A tank should be able to make a reasonable retreat before it's mods give out when only one guy is bombarding it.

The tank is not a threat when it is having to roll out and is vulnerable. The new tank changes are pretty much going to be that. Tanks will be momentarily invulnerable and only with the skills and mods then they have to roll out for a longer period of time to recoup.

A solo AVer should have to work for their kill. Tuck in at a prime point they know the tank is going to be headed while it's down.

Have you seen the cruise missile box?
Entirely automated, you drop it in a feild away from the battle, an infantry commander pops a lasersight and BOOM a 10 second fligh path on a cruise missile that can pierce 30 foot of concrete!! :)

Indeed, these guys dont know how good they have it
All that said though they should still get counter measures like a CIWS that can take down a missile from a swarm closing in on them but they absolutely should not get their health and resistance buffed up to stupid levels

Like it has been said this is a game, you will die in this game, suck it up and respawn and if what you were doing got you killed then dont do it again or at least take some counter measures *cough* stoprunningsolomorons *cough*

In game, a single suit should not equal a tank. I know many want that to be "in balance" but a tank <> a suit.

From the web...

the M1A1/A2 tank is the most advance piece of steel we have in Iraq; it has been disabled by knocking tracks with RPGs, but I have not heard of a single incident where a single RPG shot has destroyed an M1A1, I've heard (and seen) a few M1s being damaged by RPGs, hell, I've even seen an M1 being launched in the air by a daisy-chained IED on a road, but the tank managed to drive on and the crew survived, despite a massive case of ringing in the ears and bruises galore from being bounced around inside this M1, but an RPG-7D (currently used RPG rocket launcher in Iraq) cannot by itself defeat the composite (Chobham/Burlington) armor on an M1 tank; some of the newer RPGs being smuggled into Iraq through Iran have penetrated the sideskirt armor of the M1 and partially penetrated the turret armor, but not enough to disable the tank or kill the crew.

In Desert Storm, we had 18 M1A1 tanks disabled by not only enemy fire, but also by fractricide.

During an early attack on Baghdad, one M1A1 was disabled by a recoiless rifle round that had penetrated the rear engine housing, and punctured a hole in the right rear fuel cell, causing fuel to leak onto the hot turbine engine. After repeated attempts to extinguish the fire, the decision was made to destroy or remove any sensitive equipment. Oil and .50 caliber rounds were scattered in the interior, the ammunition doors were opened and several thermite grenades ignited inside. Another M1 then fired a HEAT round in order to ensure the destruction of the disabled tank. Unfortunately, the tank was completely disabled but still intact. Later, an AGM-65 Maverick was fired into the tank to finish its destruction. Ironically the tank still appeared to be intact from the exterior. (took a lot of ammo to destroy this M1)

On November 27, 2004 an Abrams tank was badly damaged and its driver killed from shrapnel wounds when an extremely powerful improvised explosive device (IED) consisting of three M109A6 155 mm shells with a total explosive weight of 34.5 kg detonated next to the tank. The other three crew members were able to escape.

On December 25, 2005 another M1A2 was disabled by a roadside bomb that left the tank burning near central Baghdad, Crew member, Spc. Sergio Gudino, died in the attack.

On June 4, 2006 two out of four soldiers died in Baghdad, Iraq, when an IED detonated near their M1A2.

Some were disabled by Iraqi infantrymen in ambushes employing short-range antitank rockets, such as the Russian RPG-7, during the 2003 invasion. This damage usually corresponds to the tracks of the Abrams. Another one was put out of action when heavy machine gun rounds struck fuel stowed in an external rack, starting a fire that spread to the engine.

So, in short; you could disable an M1 tank with an RPG-7 round, but you will NEVER destroy one by just using an RPG-7 alone.

Edit: A tank site dealing with this topic. It doesn't resolve the debate either but it's interesting.

80, out of 1100, check that kdr out..... i think thats the point

you brought real life scenarios in with you 1st post, then attempt to prove you point by posting that link, which again, says 80 out of 1100 had to get sent home, (dust scenario, they went boom!) and again, 80 out of 1100 isnt many is it......

here read it again

"But since the March 2003 invasion of Iraq, with tanks in daily combat against the unexpectedly fierce insurgency, Army says 80 of the 69-ton behemoths have been damaged so badly they had to be shipped back to the United States"

"The casualties are the lowest in any Army vehicles, despite how often the Abrams is targeted GÇö about 70% of the more than 1,100 tanks used in Iraq have been struck by enemy fire, mostly with minor damage."

minor damage (dust scenario (taking my shields to 10, still got amour left))

why the **** your comparing video games to real life is beyond me though

i have both av prof v ccp buff tanks lol dunno what ur talking about op no aver honestly want vehicles nerfed more

if there is one thing i hate more than cod its a unconstructive post and ive yet to see one like the one im about to reveal. the wars between avers and tankers needs to stop. avers want tankers easy to blow up and not worth speccing into. this means for you avers, if you get a buff and tanks get a nerf, you wont have anything to kill with them proto swarm or lai dai grenade. tankers, if we didnt have demented avers suiciding in our red line trying to kill us and keep us under locks, than infantry would be scarce and we wouldnt have anything to kill. if either gets nerfed to the ground it means we are screwed. nobody seems to see this but me.


as for my opinion of balance, wp should be given for every thousand damage you do to tanks but not devastate tanks and blow them to bits. its not right that a guy running solo grenades that cost 10k and a swarm at 50k can blow up a 2 mill tank so you really need to consider balancing av too. we already lose plenty when we face other tankers. i really hope ccp takes this into account with 1.6 pretty soon(tm), but we need proto tanks back if we are going against this becouse this is just sad. ccp you shoulda nerfed the blaster turret instead of the tank if it was that big a deal. if you get 1.6 wrong ccp, i fear most for you. you already lost most of your good tankers. now everyone has av and tanking is a dying art.

others feel free to leave comments and thoughts about this but please, dont act like a 8 year old and argue. this game needs balance, not brainless chimps throwing **** at eachother. and im a aver too so dont even try to critisize me.

I'm sorry but I don't think tanks are gonna make "tankers" happy . . . . . . . . .
Not after the rework, it sounds like tanks are gonna be restricted to their engagement time!
Ammo is gonna be a big deal, it will limit them serverly, a new breed of vehicle users will rise, they always do, but tanks aren't going to be what you hope for!

Sorry!

1: From how the title sounded, and how you typed this up, you're neither AV nor Pilot, so why are you even talking?

2: WP awards for hitting vehicles up to a cap would make it perfect for them. Hit us until we run, keep on doing it, so if you're awarded, you still feel good for scaring it away, rather than killing it.

3: That's the whole premise of our argument: Even though I spent hours doing math on several fits trying to find the best fit possible, and spending months trying to perfect my skill, you just want to pull out a PROTO swarm and solo me in under 5 seconds. **** that, teamwork required. An HAV, a group of AV, EWAR, or a mix of the three should be required to either take me out of kill me.

I'm sorry but I don't think tanks are gonna make "tankers" happy . . . . . . . . .
Not after the rework, it sounds like tanks are gonna be restricted to their engagement time!
Ammo is gonna be a big deal, it will limit them serverly, a new breed of vehicle users will rise, they always do, but tanks aren't going to be what you hope for!

Sorry!

As long as it is a change and not q complete nerf, the good tankers will remain the best, because we've stayed around long enough to learn flexibility.

Also, tanks are already ruled by a 10-60 second engagement time.

1: From how the title sounded, and how you typed this up, you're neither AV nor Pilot, so why are you even talking?

2: WP awards for hitting vehicles up to a cap would make it perfect for them. Hit us until we run, keep on doing it, so if you're awarded, you still feel good for scaring it away, rather than killing it.

3: That's the whole premise of our argument: Even though I spent hours doing math on several fits trying to find the best fit possible, and spending months trying to perfect my skill, you just want to pull out a PROTO swarm and solo me in under 5 seconds. **** that, teamwork required. An HAV, a group of AV, EWAR, or a mix of the three should be required to either take me out of kill me.

As long as it is a change and not q complete nerf, the good tankers will remain the best, because we've stayed around long enough to learn flexibility.

Also, tanks are already ruled by a 10-60 second engagement time.

2 fine no problem their.
But humour me this, why should it require a team of people to take down a tank? Is a tank worth more than 1 person?
Tanks are meant to be force multipliers, not 1 man/vehicle armies!

10men = 10men
10men > 10 tank
10men < 9men + 1 tank

Think about that, you make your infantry stronger, you do not act like a hero unit in risk!

if you pull a tank, one tank is going to die. thats a fact. so why not be a man and show him which tanker is better? usually tank battles only last 1 minute. or if you so weak and pitiful, why not pull 2 tankers? it goes on like this in pc matches till someone gives or goes broke.

or even better, go anti-tank tanking. pull a rail if its a open map or missile if its closed. those battles are EPIC

the point is, no matter what, tanks are always going to be a big part in warfare. just becouse they have a tank doenst mean you cant. you can always go rail and make sure that tanker stays out of action the entire match. if i go against a tanker with really good ground support, i go rail and he blows up in about 4 shots. you need timing is all. so no matter if your team sucks, a tank can always counter a tank.

yet, not a single AV guy on here posted a good reason why they should be able to solo a tank. they just repeat over and over "i should solo a tank". and when i demand evidence from them, it takes them a hour to bring me a military link that clearly states tanks dominated AV. can anyone give me a reason? im still trying to understand. and dont say tanks are limited to only one person. you can use them too.

That has nothing to do with the point I made!

10men = 10men
10men > 10 tanks
10men < 9men + 1tank

this is how tanks should work, it doesn't happen like this yet, it needs to!

yet, not a single AV guy on here posted a good reason why they should be able to solo a tank. they just repeat over and over "i should solo a tank". and when i demand evidence from them, it takes them a hour to bring me a military link that clearly states tanks dominated AV. can anyone give me a reason? im still trying to understand. and dont say tanks are limited to only one person. you can use them too.

ok since you seem to want to be able to 1v1 a 2 mill tank, how about we make av 2 mill? different form of balance and you can still 1v1 tanks, yet you get as broke as us in the process. in the war against iraq, we sent in around 250 tanks, about 230 came back fine. so dont even get started about real life becouse if we made it like real life, then tanks would just dominate. cod isnt like real life my friend, you severely underestimate tanks.

so explain to me why you think its possible to solo tanks irl?

CCP needs to not Buff or Nerf anything and some how make a game mode that forces Tanks and Infantry to work together. I have no idea what this mode would be. Maybe a capture the flag esq type game where a team has to hack a yellow tank then return it safely to their red line or something.

The gunner issue aside (feels to me that the gunner issue was the original issue, but after reading the forums over the past few days there is definitely a bunch of separate issues) the flaw in almost everybodys reasoning, from tankers to infantry, is that while people acknowledge team work is something required for infantry working with infantry, almost no one wants to acknowledge team work is a necessity between infantry and tanks.

AVers should pretty much be able to dominate a lone tank that doesn't have infantry support. Maybe, and I say MAYBE 2 AVers should be required to take down a decent, lone tank. I'll say that a rough ballpark of 1-3 AVers should always defeat a lone tank, no problem (due more in part to tactics, less in part to damage). And there is one thing Tankers are forgetting/won't acknowledge. That AV dude trying to take you out? His choice of AV nades puts him/her at a massive disadvantage to me, an Assault with real nades. I don't need or want to be in your tank, but if Tankers would let me, I could protect them from AV. But they don't let me/want me to.

I have seen and met a lot of REAL LIFE Military/Ex Military people here in Dust. I would like to see someone who has had REAL LIFE experience with Tanks and Tank tactics/strategy get on here and talk some sense into Dust Tankers. They would tell you that if you try and do anything with out infantry support, you are a moron and deserve the death that is coming your way. Of course, no one on here would listen to said person, so I guess that's a moot point.

In real life the 4 supposed best Main Battle Tanks (M1 Abrams, Leopard 2, Challenger 2, and AMX-56 Leclerc) cost easily into the millions of dollars to build (I wanna say the M1 Abrams is around like 54 million per tank, but i'm pulling that from memory and could be incorrect) and take massive amounts of training to make the CREW proficient.

The RPG has been the same forever, takes almost no training to use proficiently, and is basically just a tube and an exploding shell with an impact fuse. Just a guess but I would say construction of 1 RPG tube and 1 round is well under 1000 dollars, probably closer to 100 dollars.

I understand we are playing a futuristic videogame with made up weapons and technology, but if we aren't going to follow reality in any way shape or form, then everybody (tankers included) better put on their big boy pants and get ready for MAVs, Fighters, Heavy Aircraft, and those Mechs that have been rumored to be a possibility way down the road. Because if a Tank should be able to solo with no support, then so should everything else. And if they aren't, then everyone needs to get ready for Tanker QQing multiplied by 4.

EDIT: I'm not against Tank buffs. I'm against Tank buffs when considering the Tank a lone unit that doesn't work with support. I would not be against a buff that takes into consideration the fact a Tank needs to work with support forces.

If that's the case 1 proximity Mine should be able to blow up or completely immobilize a tank, "Plasma Cannons" should be 1-shotting tanks. IRL tanks don't roll in the Dust's type of maps without support, you'd get eaten alive by AV.

ok sure its been said before

TANKS role is infantry support or leading an assault. both require infantry support.

the defence of the tank comes in 3 ways - first armour/shields/rep - second suppression/firepower needless to say a fully manned tank has a far better chance of getting out of sticky situations with all the extra firepower and supressing fire it can provide.-thirdly the speed of the tank potentially allows it to get out of trouble providing it does not over commit itself.

TANKS cost a lot of isk, but they should NOT be invulnerable to all but mass AV attack. IF a tank goes where it should not i.e in built up area's it should be very vulnerable. If your getting hit by AV grenades, your too close don't complain if you die to one AV player you over committed and should not have got yourself in that situation.

Really I don't think a tank should go into a urban area unless it has a large amount of infantry support. currently this happens an awful lot and 9/10 times they get away with it when IMO it should be 50/50

Currently tanks have plenty of defence IMO, tankers need to ask themselves are they tanking right? is the tank full? do I have infantry support? are the gunners making the primary target the AV players either through suppression or killing?

If I had to make any changes to tanks/AV it would be with the AV weapons. make them more affective at close range and less affective at long range

I am sure many tankers will not agree but this is not world of tanks. bringing out the big guns should be a co-ordinated effort to make it work when used properly, in the same respect a well supported tank used correctly should be a challenge to take down.

any solo tanker asking for buffs I have no sympathy for, tanks are not god mode where every match you should get 30+ - 0. there are a fair few good tankers out there, but how many can say they use the tank in the correct role?

my 2 cents

i just hate that they can solo tanks with three men. all they need are lai dai grenades and swarms and the brains to hit us from behind. pro swarms do about 2k dam with comp dam mods and prof being 65% bonus. thats about 3k. if you hit it from behind thats an automatic 100% addition. so 6k from a single swarm from behind isnt enough? packed lai dais do 2k plus 100%. thats 4k from a grenade.... 3 of those is 12k dam plus 3 swarms is 18k dam. 30k dam from all grenades and a clip of swarms...

a AVer that sneaks up behind you is devestating becouse of this and tanks have only about 6700 armour. thats not enough? if you attack fast enough before he notices you he wont have time to activate anything so in short, hes screwed from 1 swarm and a grenade. reppers take 3 seconds after activation to help at all so that well enough to chuck 2 extra grenades. not OP enough?

How are they getting behind you? Are you staying close to your infantry support? Are they running a scanner? Do you have a friendly LLAV remote ripping you? Or are you riding around by yourself trying to play god-mode solo-tanker and failing?

i ride with 2 gunners in my tank. i NEVER run solo but its hard to find a logi jeep or logi dropship. usually the gunners hop out and rep me, following me till im out of battle while hit by AV. it works well until a AV guy drops from a tower behind you and rips hell on me from suprise. usually i can call out AV for them to kill unless they are on a tower or sneak up on me like i said before.

damn auto correct....

CCP needs to not Buff or Nerf anything and some how make a game mode that forces Tanks and Infantry to work together. I have no idea what this mode would be. Maybe a capture the flag esq type game where a team has to hack a yellow tank then return it safely to their red line or something.

so i did the math and pro swarms alone do 7840 from the back with 5 comp mods in a pro cal logi suit. 1 volly. is this reasonable?

it should yet it doesnt. i was placing a counter to all those who think they should solo a tank, yet are saddly somehow unable given the current circumstances. and if one man can control a tank with a controller, why cant one do that in the army? oh wait, they do....

if there is one thing i hate more than cod its a unconstructive post and ive yet to see one like the one im about to reveal. the wars between avers and tankers needs to stop. avers want tankers easy to blow up and not worth speccing into. this means for you avers, if you get a buff and tanks get a nerf, you wont have anything to kill with them proto swarm or lai dai grenade. tankers, if we didnt have demented avers suiciding in our red line trying to kill us and keep us under locks, than infantry would be scarce and we wouldnt have anything to kill. if either gets nerfed to the ground it means we are screwed. nobody seems to see this but me.


as for my opinion of balance, wp should be given for every thousand damage you do to tanks but not devastate tanks and blow them to bits. its not right that a guy running solo grenades that cost 10k and a swarm at 50k can blow up a 2 mill tank so you really need to consider balancing av too. we already lose plenty when we face other tankers. i really hope ccp takes this into account with 1.6 pretty soon(tm), but we need proto tanks back if we are going against this becouse this is just sad. ccp you shoulda nerfed the blaster turret instead of the tank if it was that big a deal. if you get 1.6 wrong ccp, i fear most for you. you already lost most of your good tankers. now everyone has av and tanking is a dying art.

others feel free to leave comments and thoughts about this but please, dont act like a 8 year old and argue. this game needs balance, not brainless chimps throwing **** at eachother. and im a aver too so dont even try to critisize me.

that's not what we want at all. we want the tank player to understand the ground game first, then skill into the tank. i don't care if you're in a hurry, tankers make some strange decisions in battle.

Infantry just cannot accept that the best counter to a tank should be another tank. No, it has to be infantry weapons, that are each all more powerful than a turret. That's like saying a 40mm 203 round is more powerful than the main gun of an Abrams.

Exactly tankers should not rule the field. Unfortunately this appears to be what SOME tankers want.



You are aware you have just asked for tanks to become the very definition of an OverPowered weapon.

An overpowered weapon is where 1 weapon is so much more effective than any other weapon that the only way to combat it in 1v1 fights is to weild it.

We find it hard to take tankers seriously, when there are those coming up with this!

so 7000 damage isnt enough? nor warpoints for damage? what the hell do you want? to be able to 1 shot the damn mcc??? it really is hard to take AV seriously when they can already 1 shot a tank if they sneak behind them, and ask for buffs..... just really? and i expect a 2 mill piece of equipment to be strong. just like a duvole AR is better than a militia AR.

Im not asking for buffs!
The current av is strong enough!

But if 1 man can drive a tank, 1 av unit should blow up a tank, like it is now!
Thats all! We don't need av buffing we just want to make sure tanks don't get buffed to Spkr ridiculous levels.

when you 1 shot a 2 mill tank. you think thats not OP?

if i have everything unlocked for vehicles, i should not be 1 shotted by AV. why should a 50k peice of epuipment overpower a 2 mill tank? you arent using reason, your constantly discarding everything i represent and shoot the same thing at me over and over. is that all you can come up with? you know, you can pull out a madrugar with std missile turrets and kill armour tanks. you dont have to cower behind your crutch

sorry buddy but CCP banned takecover ordie. he quit caring and stopped playing dust because of this.

Because maybe a tank shouldn't cost 2 mil. We have suggested making tanks slightly cheaper!

And to use your ar example

A more expensive ar will beat a cheaper ar
but the worlds most expensive ar isn't gonna help against a sniper at 300m, or a tank

It costing more does not guarantee power outside of your class.

I retort with the same response because you keep giving me the same starting argument!
l know my argument works so why would I change tact against the same argument?

yet, not a single AV guy on here posted a good reason why they should be able to solo a tank. they just repeat over and over "i should solo a tank". and when i demand evidence from them, it takes them a hour to bring me a military link that clearly states tanks dominated AV. can anyone give me a reason? im still trying to understand. and dont say tanks are limited to only one person. you can use them too.

You're calculating this wrong. It should be balanced around the total amount of ISK in destroyed dropsuits/vehicles by tanks vs. total cost of tanks destroyed. I highly suspect tanks deal out more pain than what they cost. It's the ISK efficiency that should be important not the price of the counter. You have to remember that AV have to run a gauntlet of vehicles and infantry (especially enemy snipers) that mow down AV like its nothing. The only thing AV is good at is taking out vehicles, except you think instead of paper killing rock, it should be a stack of paper to kill a rock with rocks and scissors shredding paper like Enron.

Vehicles should be balanced around teamwork. CCP needs to fix vehicle remote repairing, so that tankers are going to want a remote-repping LLAV or dropship with them when they charge into the fray. I have no sympathy for players who want to deal millions of ISK in losses to the enemy solo, but expect to either not pay much for the privilege, or expect to be so indestructible that they can regularly do this solo AND TURN A PROFIT. That's crazy. If tanks need a buff (and I'm not convinced they do) then it should be a buff to supporting abilities of the tanks. A defender light missile turret might be cool to fit onto LLAV's for example with fitting requirements that make it difficult/impossible to fit on a tank or dropship. Give players WPs for taking out enemy swarms. Or there could be a wide energy beam that does no damage, but will cause missiles to prematurely detonate when they enter the beam's path.

I also want to see vehicle capacitors implemented. This will give skilled tankers/pilots more flexibility and opportunity to weigh their module activation choices. It also might help bring in EVE pilots to DUST.

As long as risk vs reward arnt balanced, then tanks need a buff.

2+ mil isk tank shouldnt lose to a 150k isk dropsuit solo.

Something that actually takes skill, massive amounts of SP and isk shouldnt lose to one guy sitting on a tower dominating everyone.

AV should not 1 shot a tankmbecause I have specced into them
AV requires the person to skill into AV to get proto, he has to go through more levels to get his av then you do for your tank

]

Lower the price of tanks then!
A 2.5mil worth of dropsuits should not loose to a 2mil tank then!
Or does that logic only work in one direction?

if there is one thing i hate more than cod its a unconstructive post and ive yet to see one like the one im about to reveal. the wars between avers and tankers needs to stop. avers want tankers easy to blow up and not worth speccing into. this means for you avers, if you get a buff and tanks get a nerf, you wont have anything to kill with them proto swarm or lai dai grenade. tankers, if we didnt have demented avers suiciding in our red line trying to kill us and keep us under locks, than infantry would be scarce and we wouldnt have anything to kill. if either gets nerfed to the ground it means we are screwed. nobody seems to see this but me.


as for my opinion of balance, wp should be given for every thousand damage you do to tanks but not devastate tanks and blow them to bits. its not right that a guy running solo grenades that cost 10k and a swarm at 50k can blow up a 2 mill tank so you really need to consider balancing av too. we already lose plenty when we face other tankers. i really hope ccp takes this into account with 1.6 pretty soon(tm), but we need proto tanks back if we are going against this becouse this is just sad. ccp you shoulda nerfed the blaster turret instead of the tank if it was that big a deal. if you get 1.6 wrong ccp, i fear most for you. you already lost most of your good tankers. now everyone has av and tanking is a dying art.

others feel free to leave comments and thoughts about this but please, dont act like a 8 year old and argue. this game needs balance, not brainless chimps throwing **** at eachother. and im a aver too so dont even try to critisize me.

BULL ****

Iv spe'c enough to run ADV swarms and a std nanohive and I can SOLO any tank on the field.

Lets see what skill we need to spec into to use AV vs Tanks

Swarm launcher or Forgegun, no more then level 3 / 4 respectivelly to take out any vehicle on the field solo


Tank

Vehicle / LAV / HAV / (optional enforcer)
Turret / Large turret / Small turret
Vehicle upgrades / armour plates / armour hardners / armour reppers
CPU / PG skills for CPU/PG moduals / Scanners / turret upgrades

Yeah real fair

Chase, Dunk., et all...

I have spec'd into AVs quite seriously. I don't drive tanks but I routinely volunteer to be a dedicated gunner & ground support for them. I also happen to have more RW experience with this than probably 99.5% of the folks playing the game.

My opinion, for what that's worth, is that vehicles vs AV equipment is actually fairly balanced (some exceptions to this at the proto level) and the ultimate leveler is the skill of the tanker vs the skill or numbers of the opposing team.

A decent tanker with some dedicated infantry support (even if it's just two guys that gun in turrets and dismount to disrupt AV or swarm on other tanks) is extremely difficult to stop with out a large portion of the opposing team stopping everything they are doing and focusing on the tank team. Solo tanking can be tough since you lose situational awareness. You dominate what you see in front of you but what you don't see is the swarms coming from your 6 or the AV grenades coming from your flanks.

Chase - as to your direct question above. It should be possible (notice i didn't say easy) for a single focused player that has spent the appropriate time, SP, and ISK to solo kill a tank. If the player is approaching the tank using cover, blindspots, ect. and can take advantage of the equipment and weapons with their optimal ranges and engagement angles there is no reason that it shouldn't be possible. The single biggest threat to a modern MBT is a motivated and undetected guy or two with a high end anit-tank missle. Once the element of surprise has ended and the AV guy or team hasn't killed the tank then the tank will know where you are and it's a whole different story.
(quick edit...you might not be seeing how many times that would-be AV guy dies to get the single tank kill)

Tanks, high end fighting vehicles, helos (read: dropships) that cost exhorbitant amounts of money are routinely heavily damaged or destroyed in modern war (Iraq & Afghanistan). Quick note...the "80 tanks" destroyed weren't the only tanks destroyed. That's just the number sent back to the States; the number of vehicles taking major damage that rendered them combat ineffective for periods of time but were reparied in theater is much higher.

I guess i don't understand why people think the AV vs Tank question is about fairness. Not throwing rocks at anyone i just don't understand it.

1. High end vehicles are expensive and have incredible potential on the battlefield- as they should be.
2. The counter weapon for infantry is cheaper but puts the infantry at high risk and requires they exclusively focus on the vehicle target- as they should be.
3. The tactic to negate both the tank and the AV guy/gal is teamwork - as it should be.
4. A driving force in Dust is game mechanics that encourage teamwork.

If I'm looking at the this wrong let me know, seriously.

I guess I come down in the camp that you certainly shouldn't be able to OHK a tank but you should be able to solo kill one with some effort.

I got up to you thinking that WPs can effect it's balance.

WP's have nothing to do with balancing.

Period.

Was it miltia?
The fact you NEEDED a nanohive means the tanker was an nitwit to stick around for so long.
An I must point out you really need a suit worth its weight

Finally I had yet to pull the argument about swarms being incapable of use against infantry, which you seem to overlook so easily.

to your last statement, all other tanks took minor damage as said in the hyperlink. reasons were not included. also may i ask, what real life experience do you have as a tanker? mind you tanks are very different from being part of a assault team so if thats what you meant by experience, then i shall discard that.

16+ years Light and Heavy Cavalry, Long Range Reconnaissance & Surveillance, and other activites not apporpriate to mention. 49 mo's combat time, still on active duty.

The problem is there's a HUGE SP gap from being an expensive pinata waiting to break, and a well fit tank.

Tankers see the solution to this in the form of massive buffs.

Massive buffs would make tankers starting out more viable, but makes a well fitted tank into a mechanical god.

Tankers either refuse to see the consequences of buffing tanks, or are simply ignoring it to make their weapon of choice stronger.

I've also noticed people assuming because its a tank, that it can "tank" damage as if this were an MMORPG. Clearly that's the logic of a fool.

Duran - thanks.

You point about the upfront cost helped a great deal. High initial entry for viabilty but to give scale up attributres it would create very significant 2nd order effects in game balance. My initial reaction is to give them the buff but limit the number HAVs that can be called in...not a good or "fair" solution either.

16+ years Light and Heavy Cavalry, Long Range Reconnaissance & Surveillance, and other activites not apporpriate to mention. 49 mo's combat time, still on active duty.

nice. mind sharing some stories later? would be interesting.

If I have a decent amount of SP into AV nades and I engage a tank in a city setting where I have boxes and stuff to hide behind and or enough cover to sneak up behind a tank, then yea, I should be able to solo a tank. The tank had no business being alone in that setting, and doesn't need a buff because of the results.

Tankers can solo all they want in Pubs, and they don't dominate. Yet most Tanker QQing seems to be in relation to Pubs, so I am naturally confused.

its called a smg genius. unless you wanna go stealth logi and 1 shot me then yea, 2 shot me and get a smg.

1. it really is hard to take AV seriously when they can already 1 shot a tank if they sneak behind them, and yet AVers ask for buffs..... just really?

2. as said in above comments, there is a link "provided by an AVer" that proves tank superiority over AV.

3. its not like COD where you rpg 1 shot a tank.

4. when you 1 shot a 2 mill tank. you think thats not OP?

5. you arent using reason, your constantly discarding everything i represent and shoot the same thing at me over and over

6. i should not be 1 shotted. keep using your crutch.

7. all other tanks took minor damage as said in the hyperlink. reasons were not included.

the Army will not discuss details of how tanks have been damaged by insurgents

CCP needs to not Buff or Nerf anything and some how make a game mode that forces Tanks and Infantry to work together. I have no idea what this mode would be. Maybe a capture the flag esq type game where a team has to hack a yellow tank then return it safely to their red line or something.

The gunner issue aside (feels to me that the gunner issue was the original issue, but after reading the forums over the past few days there is definitely a bunch of separate issues) the flaw in almost everybodys reasoning, from tankers to

"His choice of AV nades puts him/her at a massive disadvantage to me, an Assault with real nades" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA wow, no it does not.
sacrificing 2 grenades no one needs and you probably wont kill with anyway kid, 1hk lai dais are OP, 9700 dmg for one grenade.
"a lone tank should be dominated by av" **** no, not with modules, kid, this isn't call of doody when every kill takes 0.6 seconds, tanks are not paper.....

1. i can solo my assault, but not my tank?
2. there are times where i roll with infintry(see wat i did thar)and still get destroyed by forge/swarm/1hk lai dais.
3. i went 15-0 a match infintry solo, no team mates.
4. for 10 dropsuits i pay 100k isk.
5. tanks can't profit if destroyed.

"1man > 1tank"
you must be joking, tanks should make infintry run, not tanks running from 1 guy.

1. Your dropsuit can solo other suits, you cant solo tanks with an anti-infantry suit!
(Tanks can solo other tanks, but you can't solo avers with a vehicle)

2.Running with Infantry doesn't guarantee a lack of death, you still need situational awareness

3. Good for you, see point 1

4. Are you using cheap fits my adv suits costs 75k a pop

5.Proto suits can't profit if destroyed, and they are more likely to do so

"1 man > 1 tank"
Im deadly serious, 1man(Aver) should beat 1 tank, in a 1v1 fight
Its also a more literal sense
1man is WORTH more than 1 tank

But a tank and supporting Infantry say 5men (A squad, for convienience) should be worth more than 2 enemy squads of pure infantry.

Tanks are force multipliers, that important statememt defines tanks, and vehicles in general!

I like the last statement the most
In other word it say get rdy boys we in some shhhh

"His choice of AV nades puts him/her at a massive disadvantage to me, an Assault with real nades" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA wow, no it does not.
sacrificing 2 grenades no one needs and you probably wont kill with anyway kid, 1hk lai dais are OP, 9700 dmg for one grenade.
"a lone tank should be dominated by av" **** no, not with modules, kid, this isn't call of doody when every kill takes 0.6 seconds, tanks are not paper.....

not trolling I agree that an tank is an force multiplier that deserves more than one person tanking an tank down. as such like the map where an drop ship puts an AVer to where an tank can not be able to move the turrets high and even if I back out enough to get some kind of shoot off its still not good enough but an swarm can lock on to and destroy the tank.

"His choice of AV nades puts him/her at a massive disadvantage to me, an Assault with real nades" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA wow, no it does not.
sacrificing 2 grenades no one needs and you probably wont kill with anyway kid, 1hk lai dais are OP, 9700 dmg for one grenade.
"a lone tank should be dominated by av" **** no, not with modules, kid, this isn't call of doody when every kill takes 0.6 seconds, tanks are not paper.....

Let me ask this say my squad ask for tank support and I go to the outskirts where it should be safe and bring tank out and are going to them to take the objective that were are trying to hold but while im on the way there sits an single comando and he goes to his swarm and is at a very good distance from he lock on and blows me up with one shoot. This is where I dont agree that one person should be able to take an tank out.

I can understand that THUNDER. Taken at face value, that **** sucks, I know it does. Is it right..............I don't know. If the AV guy is fully proto'd out into his weapon of choice, and the tank is of lower quality and the tanker isn't speced very far into anything, then I would lean towards that being ok. But if it's just an average AV vs an average tank, no, it should not be that simple. While I believe in the general possibility of AV soloing a tank, I have never once said it should be easy. It should be something you have to work for. I've seen posts suggesting ways to make AV more of a role you would have to spec into, and while I am currently neutral on this concept, the ideas in general make some decent points, on both sides of the fence.

Another thing that has been brought up before is the lack of Proto tanks. It seems to me this is a pretty big piece of the puzzle, and one that may be required before serious balance talks can commence. I could be wrong though. What are the feelings on Dusts lack of Proto tanks in regards to the tank balance issue? Something to be considered or a non issue?

First off, I genuinely thank you for the "kid" part. It's like getting carded for cigarettes. I'll take the compliment, even in this setting. Nades may not make a difference either way for you when your using them, but when I kill someone with them, they make a difference for me. And if I kill you with one, they just made a difference for both of us (of course, i'm sure you have never been killed with a grenad

1. Your dropsuit can solo other suits, you cant solo tanks with an anti-infantry suit!
(Tanks can solo other tanks ONLY)

"1 man > 1 tank"
Im deadly serious, 1man(Aver) should beat 1 tank, in a 1v1 fight
Its makes NO sense
1man is WORTH more than 1 tank

cod is ******* stupid, it's so boring....

you have got to be ******* serious, or trolling.
1 person, easily destroy a TANK??? then whats the point of a TANK?
1v1 blaster, this isn't ******* COD kid, whoever shoots first, cod is that way>>>>>>>>>>>>
you mad that you can't solo a tank so you think you need to destroy a 500k tank in 1 hit? --_--

I think this guys blood pressure is up a bit to high.

asai saw that post i entered rage mode cuz the kid wanted to destroy tanks in split seconds.
i keep getn proto stomped

1-2. I'm sorry you're all hot under the collar Chase, but if you really want to keep arguing with me, you are going to have to actually read my posts at some point, lest you continue to make yourself look foolish. I am not an AVer, and I have to go back and read the whole thread but i'm pretty sure no one has called for AV buffs.

3. I didn't know they had tanks in CoD multiplayer. Is that true?

4. A very genral statement. Needs refinement to answer properly. Could be yes, could be no. Not a straightforward black and white situation.

5. That **** is annoying as hell isn't it Chase? The only thing I've got from you so far is you don't ever want to see a tank soloed by anyone or anything no matter what. That, and you keep misreading an article that was not used as a point, but a supporting argument. But keep feeding the fire, you tried to reference the article and got it wrong again, but I will get to that....

6. Lol, that's the only point I've been able to discern from your entire thread

7. Plenty of reasons were included Chase, but you have to read the whole article-

From the 1st paragraph (I've already had to repost this part Chase, you should have read this part already)- The U.S. military's Abrams tank, designed during the Cold War to withstand the fiercest blows from the best Soviet tanks, is getting knocked out at surprising rates by the low-tech bombs and rocket-propelled grenades of Iraqi insurgents.

From the 3rd paragraph- At least five soldiers have been killed inside the tanks when they hit roadside bombs

From the 9th paragraph- A favorite tactic: detonating a roadside bomb in hopes of blowing the tread off the tank. The insurgents follow with rocket-propelled grenades, mortars and gunfire aimed at the less-armored areas, especially the vulnerable rear engine compartment.

*whew* Anyway, Chase I would suggest you not be so hostile. While it may not be fun reading the posts of someone you disagree with, it is a requirement if you want to have a discussion, not a heated argument. I'm sure I have missed a few points you have tried to make, but I have done my best to read your (and everyone elses) posts and consider them. The fact that you still refer to me as "the AVer" shows you are just posting to post, and the moment you take a good verbal shot you want to switch over to some fantasy world where you are always right no matter what and other peoples opinions don't exist.

I try to be fair and open to new ideas, and if I don't agree I refrain from calling people "CoD fans", or "ignorant AVers". I'm sure I have made myself look like an @ss to plenty of people in this thread, and I do regret that. I must admit you have me pretty frustrated as well Chase.

But oh well, water under the bridge. I am happy to see people posting that at the very least understand the points i'm trying to make (Jaysyn, Monkey, thanks for restating and clarifying some of my points). I could care less if people listen to me, all I want is communal acknowledgment of valid points that need to be considered before any action is taken. Whether those points are accepted coming from my mouth or someone elses makes no difference.

And Jaysyn I just want to say thank you for your service and sacrifice. I'd love to squad with you, my weekday schedule is a little funky with school and work, but i'm usually on for a little bit around 11:00pm-2:00am ish, Eastern Standard. I'll hit you up next time i'm on (should be around tonight for a bit).

And Chase I would like to squad with you as well. You run a tank, let me run as your infantry support. I don't need to be in a turret (and prefer not to be). We could set this thread aside, run a few matches, and see what we see. Maybe it turns out a little infantry support makes all the difference for you. Maybe it turns out tanks are too weak and AV is to strong. I would imaging it would be somewhere in the middle. The best way to show off our points to each other is to squad up.

you have got to be ******* serious, or trolling.
1 person, easily destroy a TANK??? then whats the point of a TANK?
1v1 blaster, this isn't ******* COD kid, whoever shoots first, cod is that way>>>>>>>>>>>>
you mad that you can't solo a tank so you think you need to destroy a 500k tank in 1 hit? --_--

Never said destroy it seconds!
Never said make it easy!

I just said 1man should be worth more than a tank 1 man (An AV specialist) should be capable of taking down a tank by himself.
It should still require tactics an forethought on the avers side.

READ what I ACTUALLY write and you might find me a lot more reasonable than a COD lover!

if thats the case, in my opinion it should take them between 1:30 or 2 minutes for proto AV with them HUNTING you down. but then again whats my opinion count for, after all it is my thread.

If he is getting away fine, but how long should he survive in the "hotzone" without support?

Do Tankers realize that there are vehicles in the game meant to repair them and keep them alive?

Sometimes I get into a rare battle where a Team uses its collective brain and you see a LLAV behind a tank repping it.
Forge Snipe the (Shield) Tank and low and behold almost all the damage done to it is repaired before I can fire again.

Then why bring it up?

bout 30 seconds with proto AV, best tank mind you. no support. unless you run a speed fit madrugar. then its all up to the skill of the pilot "its really hard to use these fits, as av takes you out fast and if you bump something you completely stop or explode" its just not right that sometimes tankers arent even given a chance.

Chase, Dunk...

Sorry I missed you guys online last night...doing work for Corp.

That said, great game playing against you Chase. Once I saw you on the red board I had to give you some Scram and 'Nade waffles. You served a some back to me as well - good times.

Ok, that sounds fair, we may be looking at the arguement from different sides, but we want the same thing!

lol i didnt realize but yea i remember. i was running solo assault with a starter fit and basic AR. i minght have swiched weapons though becouse i got every weapon unlocked in the game. you had a damn good squad man. send me a ingame message if you wanna play together dude. i just remember i couldnt find anyone in the match and then BAM i run into a squad of redberrys lol. most kills i got that day was right after that match and i went 34/12 with my starter fit (cheap bastard i know).