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Why we should have Respecs: Vet Perspective

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Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 185	Posted - 2013.08.16 05:29:00 - [1] - Quote Since most Forumers only read the Opening Post I have decided to Repost this to generate Feedback: DCUO has paid Respecs so it is not unfathomable.....but I prefer not to advocate this route. Everyone claiming "This is EVE/New Eden HTFU!!!!!" are ignorant to the fact that this is soooooooooo far removed from that..... 1st & foremost it is an FPS, partially developed with MAG associates, & that had "Earned Respecs" over time/gameplay. DUST also lacks the substance to grant it MMO status. There is no meaningful interaction between DUST & EVE. The vast majority of the skill tree is ever-changing & vastly unfinished (SP Sinks where final 2 Levels offer no unlock/bonus). Promised launch content is missing. Core functions/mechanics are either not present or buggy. Player market is unavailable to even determine value of loot. There is almost no balance or player retension incentive. Marketplace items/statistics are still disgustingly flawed. And I won't even bother mentioning how vehicle functions are punished & unrewarding b/c I could write a dissertation on this subject alone..... Technically.....until the core mechanics, balancing foundation, PvE & other launch promised content, DUST-to-EVE & vice versa interactions, player market, vehicular function/protection, skill tree foundation to eliminate SP "Sand Traps", and even racial variants of current suits/vehicles (Including Pilot Dropsuit) are in place......we are still in BETA testing mode and it should be treated as such (Minus RESET as this would utterly kill player retension at this point.....) This all points to 1 fact.....this is not yet an MMOFPS, it is a BETA for a Lobby Shooter. Considering the above facts/factors I would like to propose this: 1. Respec of Lifetime SP every 2-4 months (Depending on time between major content additions/alterations) until the core fuctionality, promised gear/vehicles, and skill tree are presented in full to promote the testing aspect. 2. Respec of Lifetime SP 1 more time immediately after DUST is determined to at least be lobby shooter competent & initial content complete, with a functional skill tree and core balancing foundation in place. 3. Respec of Lifetime SP every 1 year (Stackable at this point) to promote longevity and slight experimental flexibility to alter the Meta, thus keeping DUST feeling "Fresh" over time. And 1 Lifetime SP Respec for new players within 30 days of exiting a properly structured Battle Academy. (Allows ample time to research & ask for build advice via community, as per any MMO) I feel that these steps would be beneficial to the longevity of this title as it would bolster player retension. The arguments against it fall flat in the grand scheme of things. Some say that this will only promote "FOTM Chasers", and while that may be true it also is not hurting anyone but themselves. In the grand scheme of things we would get to experience the "other side of the fence", test the changes out, provide more frequent feedback on various intergrations without feeling "Punished", and pave the way to a final & true DUST 514. When we enter "Step 2" you may see some "FOTM Chasers".....but they only hurt themselves & their team. At this point there should be a sense of balance in place, and an "Escape Route" in the form of PvE. Example....a team of "FOTM Chasers" sporting Caldari Assault/Logi Dropsuits with ARs & Flaylocks go up against a team of Mixed Races/Gears. The sheer flexibility of a well-balanced cohesive team playing to eachother's weaknesses/strengths will get objectives faster, offset/negate the FOTM gear/weapon system, bait 'n switch tactics (Has Gallente Armor w/ AR bait Caldari Shield AR into fight w/ Caldari Shield with SCR/Laser, etc), & many other Meta-building strategies that make the "FOTM Chasers" essentially pointless, hence "Punished". At "Step 3" we now have a well-defined baseline and allow the "Punished FOTM Chasers" to fix their mistake after 1 year. All while also allowing everyone else to choose wether or not to alter their path, or bank their Respec, allowing for more diversity overall thus changing the Meta and providing the ever-changing combat we were once promised. We must look past the "This is New Eden/EVE" factor as we move forward if we are to hope for survival in this market. We cannot compare a subscription based pure spreadsheet MMORPG to what is to be a free-to-play MMOFPS. Though they may be set in the same Universe they are 2 entirely separate "Beasts", and should be "Tamed" according to their respective behaviors. We do not teach a turtle to jump just as we do not coax a penguin to fly, nor an ant to swim
Robocop Junior The Surrogates Of War 245	Posted - 2013.08.16 05:33:00 - [2] - Quote I was on the fence until the turtle and penguin part that sealed the deal:D
First Prophet Valor Company Incorporated 817	Posted - 2013.08.16 05:38:00 - [3] - Quote DCUO is completely different from both EVE and Dust so the whole DCUO did it so dust could too, is a bad argument to start with. I'd really like to see that be removed. Otherwise I get what you're trying to say.
Karl Koekwaus Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 158	Posted - 2013.08.16 05:49:00 - [4] - Quote So you are saying that you have trouble figuring out how the skillpoint system works. You do know you can train multiple races of suits and you can even train both Assault AND logistics of suits, you don't need a respec to try something different, you can just train it. also; Vets aren't the ones who benefit most from respecs, since they have enough skills to train multiple races and weapons anyway. Respecs are only nice for those who can't train a single suit up to lvl 3 with the appropriate gear and weapons.
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 187	Posted - 2013.08.16 06:22:00 - [5] - Quote First Prophet wrote: DCUO is completely different from both EVE and Dust so the whole DCUO did it so dust could too, is a bad argument to start with. I'd really like to see that be removed. Otherwise I get what you're trying to say. Actually.....it is quite valid if you know your game genres & pricing models as DCUO is a prime example of both sides of the fence. It started out as a disc-only purchase with a subscription model with no Character/Power-Type Respecs (It had a Respec Chamber for Power Points & Skill Points only, not a Class/Type, and it cost ingame currency). Then it went Free-to-Play with Sub Option with Respec Tokens for many things.....then it just went Pure Pay-to-Win. It has seen all sides of the fence, so it is the most optimal example for this discussion since we are in fact discussing both a Subscription & Free-to-Play Model MMO.
Robocop Junior The Surrogates Of War 250	Posted - 2013.08.16 06:26:00 - [6] - Quote They just need to put some kinda respec system in soon before it's too late and they have to give in outta desperation. I'm sure a lot more people would start playing again vs people quitting over this?
Heimdallr69 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 574	Posted - 2013.08.16 06:31:00 - [7] - Quote Respecs ftw..considering scramblers will be useless here in a bit you mitus well..I would like my sp back for that ****
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 187	Posted - 2013.08.16 06:34:00 - [8] - Quote Karl Koekwaus wrote: So you are saying that you have trouble figuring out how the skillpoint system works. You do know you can train multiple races of suits and you can even train both Assault AND logistics of suits, you don't need a respec to try something different, you can just train it. also; Vets aren't the ones who benefit most from respecs, since they have enough skills to train multiple races and weapons anyway. Respecs are only nice for those who can't train a single suit up to lvl 3 with the appropriate gear and weapons. I'm a 22 Mil SP, 600 Mil ISK, Top 50 Killboard, Top 20 WP Board, Tanker Main w/ Minmatar Logi Sub who dabbled in Caldari Logi OP TAC AR Hacked EXO FOTM for ***** 'n giggles (All on just this Character). You obviously did not learn reading/comprehension if you are making these utterly ignorant assertions. You even further validate my point in your final "paragraph". You must also be new to DUST 514 if you did not know these facts and are now entitled to a Respec. You provided nothing valid to this discussion and have thusly been deemed Irrelevant
Heimdallr69 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 574	Posted - 2013.08.16 06:38:00 - [9] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: Karl Koekwaus wrote: So you are saying that you have trouble figuring out how the skillpoint system works. You do know you can train multiple races of suits and you can even train both Assault AND logistics of suits, you don't need a respec to try something different, you can just train it. also; Vets aren't the ones who benefit most from respecs, since they have enough skills to train multiple races and weapons anyway. Respecs are only nice for those who can't train a single suit up to lvl 3 with the appropriate gear and weapons. I'm a 22 Mil SP, 600 Mil ISK, Top 50 Killboard, Top 20 WP Board, Tanker Main w/ Minmatar Logi Sub who dabbled in Caldari Logi OP TAC AR Hacked EXO FOTM for ***** 'n giggles (All on just this Character). You obviously did not learn reading/comprehension if you are making these utterly ignorant assertions. You even further validate my point in your final "paragraph". You must also be new to DUST 514 if you did not know these facts and are now entitled to a Respec. You provided nothing valid to this discussion and have thusly been deemed Irrelevant Go away...mr 9 mil sp more than me..I agree with respec though
Nosid Katona HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 39	Posted - 2013.08.16 06:46:00 - [10] - Quote You know; even though i invest alot of hours into MAG and adored its respec system I have been rather uninterested in respecs for this game. However; how you put that well worded, thought out, and honestly rather true post has made me reconsider and join in on the "Yes respec, with conditions" side of the argument rather then be a "Eh, don't really care." non factor. Congrats on your skills of persuasion. +1 good sir. O.- Vae Victis

Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion 1190	Posted - 2013.08.16 07:22:00 - [11] - Quote The question is, is the skill system ineffective because we have a lack of content, or is there a lack of content because the skill system is horrible? Or is it both? Are we stuck in a cycle of no escape? I'd say yes. Implementing a respec system implies that the current system only needs a few changes to be worthy of the title of "the thinking man's FPS". Not so. I'd say the whole SP system needs a revamp. Something like tiercide. A big issue I see with releasing new content is balancing it across standard/advanced/prototype tiers. This is probably why we haven't seen prototype vehicles yet, and is probably why the Sagaris/Surya were removed. They needed to be revisited to fit into their role as HAVs of the highest tier. If tiers were flattened there would be none of his hassle and the game would expand with variation. Where now you put SP into prototype gear, with tiercide you put the same amount of SP into multiple variants of a single item, but can specialise into one variant. Furthermore, there would be no need for respecs. This is a good thing, because we lose the feeling we're in a persistent universe if we can rectify mistakes so easily. With tiercide, since we unlock things very easily, it's possible for someone like the OP to have all items unlocked. Thing is, if you unlock everything you're still not as powerful as a newbie who has spent all of their SP specialising into one weapon. But that gap is not has big as the difference between militia to prototype that we see today.
Billi Gene Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 283	Posted - 2013.08.16 07:27:00 - [12] - Quote well reasoned, an utter lack of self interest as the basis for your arguments. bravo, mostly i'd just like there to be no respecs promised to punish any notion of FoTM, I can see that now. danke.
steadyhand amarr Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1098	Posted - 2013.08.16 07:40:00 - [13] - Quote Iv allready manufacturerd the no respec t-shirts so huh no. Good post. But need to understand they can cross train. HOWVER I am for unlimited respecs until u pass 5mill mark so u can learn what everything does and change ur mind if u Made a mistake
THE GREY CARDINAL PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 195	Posted - 2013.08.16 07:56:00 - [14] - Quote Knocking on 20 mill SP here and so I think I could be classified as a vet. Here's a pearl of wisdom that has been finely refined over the course of my merc career: spec into what you want to play, not FotM. Seriously...if people did this you wouldn't need respecs. I'm full on proto gallente logibro with every single skill under DS core upgrades maxed, now I'm moving on to vehicle core upgrades and will be a gallente LLAV and LDS pilot (the power of OCD compells me to train whatever has 'logistics'on it). I have ALL of my SP 100% exactly where I want it, and I know exactly where the next 6 months of SP is going (literally, I have the list of skills ordered by priority :P). I love my merc and have no insecurity over my SP allocation. You guys aren't getting respecs...you need to let go of this dead horse and just smarten up.
xSaloLx GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 129	Posted - 2013.08.16 07:57:00 - [15] - Quote Something I'd like to add regarding FotM fear: If there's a weapon or something that's considered "broken" "OP" "FotM" etc, people are going to spec into it regardless of a respec or not. This is actually a good thing, when a large portion of the payer base starts using something "OP" (and the other portion starts complaining about it) it helps show what's imbalanced and thus tells the DEVs what needs fixed. The benefit of a respec is that it shows these imbalances almost immediately, whereas it might take weeks or months for people to be able abuse them anyway. As the OP said, Dust is essentially in its beta phase and has many kinks that need buffed and new content that needs to get balanced, so why not let the community experiment with the new toys every month or so and see how they fit.
Midas Fool Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 150	Posted - 2013.08.16 07:58:00 - [16] - Quote "I don't think this game is good enough yet" is a false dilemma. CCP doesn't have to be apologetic, not even to you. I'm OK with a respec a year, but it absolutely must cost Aurum. It would be like an optional subscription fee and everyone who doesn't have the patience to save up SP could at least put some money into this project. Plus, like you pointed out it would punish everyone who went FoTM in a month's time. Also it would be similar enough to Eve's attribute system. I don't understand how you have 22 mil SP and haven't figured out what you like. It sounds to me like you just want to train something to 5 RIGHT NOW, just like all the scrubs do. That is perfectly understandable, even I'll admit that grinding is a pain in the ass. However, it isn't exactly fair or noble. To someone like me with half your skill points that has invested them patiently, put in a lot of time in playing games, and spent a good amount of money in boosters, it really does take a huge amount of meaning out of this game. At your level you should know what kind of advantage you would gain. In fact I'm sure you do. Just play a few matches. Damn. Protostomp if you must. Because of your corp obligatory 10/10 if troll.
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 191	Posted - 2013.08.16 07:59:00 - [17] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: The question is, is the skill system ineffective because we have a lack of content, or is there a lack of content because the skill system is horrible? Or is it both? Are we stuck in a cycle of no escape? I'd say yes. Implementing a respec system implies that the current system only needs a few changes to be worthy of the title of "the thinking man's FPS". Not so. I'd say the whole SP system needs a revamp. Something like tiercide. A big issue I see with releasing new content is balancing it across standard/advanced/prototype tiers. This is probably why we haven't seen prototype vehicles yet, and is probably why the Sagaris/Surya were removed. They needed to be revisited to fit into their role as HAVs of the highest tier. If tiers were flattened there would be none of his hassle and the game would expand with variation. Where now you put SP into prototype gear, with tiercide you put the same amount of SP into multiple variants of a single item, but can specialise into one variant. Furthermore, there would be no need for respecs. This is a good thing, because we lose the feeling we're in a persistent universe if we can rectify mistakes so easily. With tiercide, since we unlock things very easily, it's possible for someone like the OP to have all items unlocked. Thing is, if you unlock everything you're still not as powerful as a newbie who has spent all of their SP specialising into one weapon. But that gap is not has big as the difference between militia to prototype that we see today. This "Tiericide" seems an intriguing notion, but it begs the query that this "Specialization" you propose is what we already have, but with less of a gap.....which entails "Tiers", thus negating the initial intention of "Tiericide". My understanding of this may be vague at best.....but wouldn't true "Tiericide" entail only having variations and no "Tiers"??? Wouldn't that essentially be like most base shooters and not an MMO (Equipment determines playstyle and nothing more)??? Nonetheless....either of the 2 changes would require a rather extensive overhaul that would take an enormous amount of time, thus still validating the necessity for Steps 1 & 2 of my presented proposal. In order to better facilitate the testing phase it is necessary to have ample "Breathing Room".
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 191	Posted - 2013.08.16 08:02:00 - [18] - Quote Billi Gene wrote: well reasoned, an utter lack of self interest as the basis for your arguments. bravo, mostly i'd just like there to be no respecs promised to punish any notion of FoTM, I can see that now. danke. I'm confused at this response..... May you please be so kind as to rephrase your response and position on the matter at hand??? Your feedback would be greatly appreciated
Phantom Vaxer The Generals EoN. 78	Posted - 2013.08.16 08:03:00 - [19] - Quote I say partial respecs at least for those people who miss out of upcoming options. Like Heavies getting respecs due to only having the option of Amarr when the other suits come. Its only fair when us meduim suit users got plenty of options when the respec came as opposed to heavies and scouts.
George Moros WarRavens League of Infamy 56	Posted - 2013.08.16 08:07:00 - [20] - Quote @OP: Although I agree with your several points, most importantly concerning DUST being an unfinished product which will probably see some major changes/balances in the future, the general idea of giving regular respecs to players is bad. While it would certainly help new players to learn the ropes and give them a chance to try out different roles / playstyles, it would completely kill the "character development" concept of the game, including the "decisions matter" part. So, with respect to that, here's my suggestion: Every new created character gets, say, 3 respecs from day one. He can use them any time they choose, but they have to be spent until a certain SP cap is reached (10M SP?). If you still have respecs left when you hit the cap, you are allowed one last respec, and that's it. Here's my reasoning: Since making wrong decisions regarding SP investment can definitely be painful to new players, it shouldn't be as painful to those with significant SP pools. I'm speaking from my EVE experience here. At the current stage of my EVE character development (>120M SP), it doesn't really bother me whether CCP buffs or nerfs any ship (or entire class of ships). As far as subcapital ships are concerned, I can fly them all, with almost perfect skills. So, respecs give new players the option to try out different playstyles before committing to any one specific. But once you reach a certain point, you have enough experience (both as a player and SP-wise) to know what you want, and how to get to it. At that point, you should have adequate skills to be reasonably competitive with at least one loadout (meaning, proto suit, weapons and gear), and have decently trained core skills so that if you change your mind for any reason, you can crosstrain in a reasonably short time.

Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion 1190	Posted - 2013.08.16 08:10:00 - [21] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: This "Tiericide" seems an intriguing notion, but it begs the query that this "Specialization" you propose is what we already have, but with less of a gap.....which entails "Tiers", thus negating the initial intention of "Tiericide". My understanding of this may be vague at best.....but wouldn't true "Tiericide" entail only having variations and no "Tiers"??? Wouldn't that essentially be like most base shooters and not an MMO (Equipment determines playstyle and nothing more)??? Nonetheless....either of the 2 changes would require a rather extensive overhaul that would take an enormous amount of time, thus still validating the necessity for Steps 1 & 2 of my presented proposal. In order to better facilitate the testing phase it is necessary to have ample "Breathing Room". Specialisation will mainly occur through passive skill bonuses and picking a variant of a weapon. So instead of picking an assault rifle because you like mid-range combat, there will be a variant with a red dot sight in exchange for less hipfire accuracy so you are truly specialised into mid-range combat, but have a weakness at CQC. At the moment, there is NO weakness going up in tiers for dropsuit items. A GEK is overall better than the standard AR. Tiercide implements strengths, but also weaknesses. Also, I forgot to mention that modules will retain maybe 2 tiers, or stay how they are. So yes, it's not true tiercide. (note: this model for tiercide is simply what is the most supported by the community at the moment.) This essentially means some people will still have an advantage over others, but yes, it'll be a little less pronounced than the advantage currently. This is to satisfy those who want to have a clear advantage over newbies because they've played for longer (which I feel is a little selfish, but that's pure opinion) but also so that newbies can get into the game without being separated in an Academy which totally defeats the meaning of persistent universe as well.
lowratehitman Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 867	Posted - 2013.08.16 08:14:00 - [22] - Quote Dust 514 : I Was Never A Fan Of Respecs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB26grrZS2A
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 193	Posted - 2013.08.16 08:33:00 - [23] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: Iv allready manufacturerd the no respec t-shirts so huh no. Good post. But need to understand they can cross train. HOWVER I am for unlimited respecs until u pass 5mill mark so u can learn what everything does and change ur mind if u Made a mistake This would be a semi-acceptable solution when Step 2 of my presented proposal has been realized....although it would depreciate the value of the traditional MMO experience (IE: Requesting suggestions/guide guidance from vets & adepts, forum research, etc.). We are still technically a part of the testing phase until the appropriate conditions are met, and thusly should not be punished for our choices until our options become clear, so as not to be manipulated to such the extremes that we are currently being subjected to. This does not include new content, only the content we were initially promised at launch of the DUST 514 title, as we should have an already fleshed out, solidified, core balanced, well structured foothold in the DUST 514 environment at that moment of functional/fundamental "completion". Anything new that is presented to us after Step 2 should have a core balanced structure to insert itself into, and should be balanced accordingly to the "now" functionally core balanced current "Launch/Base" content. Thusly this should only eliminate the probability of the Step 3 of my presented proposal, should your proposition be accepted. Should it be declined the "30-Day 1-Time Respec after Battle Academy" of Step 3 still stands & the 1 Respec/Year would be eliminated. All of this is based solely in regards to my initial proposal and is most obviously speculative & subject to change as per CCP's decision & player acceptance/declination, and any alterations presented via feedback as this thread moves forward. Your feedback is definitely appreciated
KING CHECKMATE Bragian Order Amarr Empire 553	Posted - 2013.08.16 08:45:00 - [24] - Quote OP... I wish i had you way with words. sadly English is not my main language and it does take me a while to produce any sentence taht makes a little bit of sense . +1 I invested around 1000+ hours in MAG, and i must admit what kept me going was: ''Oh gawd im bored playing for RAVEN/SVER/VALOR , Hmmm im gonna change sides'' ''Oh gawd im bored of using Ar's. Im gonna do a respec and play shotguns yay!'' Easy, FUN.. not likeDust. Hard...boring, to the point people AFK every game...
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 194	Posted - 2013.08.16 09:14:00 - [25] - Quote THE GREY CARDINAL wrote: Knocking on 20 mill SP here and so I think I could be classified as a vet. Here's a pearl of wisdom that has been finely refined over the course of my merc career: spec into what you want to play, not FotM. Seriously...if people did this you wouldn't need respecs. I'm full on proto gallente logibro with every single skill under DS core upgrades maxed, now I'm moving on to vehicle core upgrades and will be a gallente LLAV and LDS pilot (the power of OCD compells me to train whatever has 'logistics'on it). I have ALL of my SP 100% exactly where I want it, and I know exactly where the next 6 months of SP is going (literally, I have the list of skills ordered by priority :P). I love my merc and have no insecurity over my SP allocation. You guys aren't getting respecs...you need to let go of this dead horse and just smarten up. You misunderstand the concept..... We still have yet to attain what was initially presented & promised at launch. An example of this would be the Pilot Dropsuit. As a Vehicle Pilot I am personally at odds with this situation as I have been driven off the path to my initial goal due to lacking said content, and even diminishing/removal of content (IE: Removal of Black Ops "Prototype" HAVs & Prototype "Advanced" HAVs). So in order to maintain ample functionality on the battlefield via dropsuit option I have specialized into Minmatar Logistics, thus making use of the SVER BPO. It may be argued that the Minmatar Logistics specialization was a "Choice", yet what of the Scouts and Heavies who have been presented with no such option??? Is it "Fair" that the Medium Dropsuit specializers not only were provided such options, but were presented with a Respec twice to feel out their newfound options??? (I know this because I went from Caldari Tanker to Caldari Logistics to Gallente Tanker in a matter of roughly 1-2 Months "post-launch".....) It may also be stated that 1 of those 2 Respecs were based upon the changes to the skill tree. But.....isn't it blatantly obvious that the skill tree will once again be altered/revamped??? With the issue of majorly altered bonuses, lacking of bonuses & function (IE: Level 4-5 of Dropsuit Command, Vehicle Mobility, etc. having no unlock nor associated bonus, thus creating a TRUE "SP Sink), and overall misintegration after the separation of Dropsuit & Vehicle Skill Sectors.....I forsee indefinite and extreme skill tree revamping in the near future. So is this not a justification for an intended Respec??? I'm glad you selfishly enjoy your unintended launch content Respec into Gallente Logistics, and I applaud your contentness with your "Choice" considered the fact you would have initially been stuck with the SVER BPO, Logistics Starter Fit, or at max Logistics vk0/vk1 (vk1 being essentially Minmatar Logistics GASP). But to you I say this "Dead Horse" has in fact "Smartened Up", and you have thusly been deemed Irrelevant. Thank you for not contributing to this discussion, your feedback is not welcome. PS: You are not a Vet unless you were in Closed BETA for quite some time (E3/Replication for example. You are simply a Seasoned Newberry
The Robot Devil Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 852	Posted - 2013.08.16 09:16:00 - [26] - Quote DUST will never be a finished product like EVE will never be a finished product so having an "unfinished" game isn't a good argument. Refunding SP will not help with enjoyment, player retention, or entice new players to start and stay. Refunding will only make the game seem different for a short while and the same cycle of boredom will continue. Our problem is lack of content. All racial suits, weapons and vehicles would solve many problems. PvE is another major step to keeping players around. Flavor of the month builds will always be here and our job as players is to provide feedback that can be used to help ensure that the fotm is not op. Flavors are good and show that the community is able to adapt and learn what is good. Tiericide was used in EVE to bring ships of the same size more in line with each other and allow lower SP pilots to fly a different ship in the same tech level. Instead of having to wait to level 5 skills to fly a frigate one can now fly any t1 frigate with lvl 1 skill and then the pilot can put more SP into that ship type to make it better. This game isn't that difficult to learn and almost all information is available in the description of the item or skill. EVE's skill sets make this game look like pacman and if someone was to ask for a respec they would be laughed out of the game. This is CCP's game and their vision, we we invited to play and provide feedback to help progress and better the game not fundamentally change it by brow beating developers into changes that we want. This game will never be as popular as many other fps because it is different. They didn't add zombies and calm it new or and better sounds and make you pay $60 again. The only things that will draw players in and keep us here is good content. No other gimmick is going to work because the people who want this game don't want another bland, pointless and repetitive shooter. We have that now and it sucks. We want something different. Want to make this game better? Then provide positive feedback that actually addresses a problem instated of a one sentence post calling CCP stupid. Play the stupid game and have fun. Skill into what you like not what is the best at the moment. Expect nerfs and buffs. Realize the game will never be finished and that there is no "end game" so complaining about how the game is unfinished is like complaining about water being wet. Content, content, and more content is what is needed. Everything else will work out later if we have something to do. Stagnation and boredom is killing us and nothing else. Buffs and nerfs do not change the player count and the reallocation of SP will only help for a few days and long winded diatribes like this one do very little. Play for fun and play other games, this isn't a second job. The game has seen marked improvement in every area and we are just now getting to the good stuff, let's not screw it up by changing our focus onto a gimmick that will not help us in the long run.
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 194	Posted - 2013.08.16 09:31:00 - [27] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: "I don't think this game is good enough yet" is a false dilemma. CCP doesn't have to be apologetic, not even to you. I'm OK with a respec a year, but it absolutely must cost Aurum. It would be like an optional subscription fee and everyone who doesn't have the patience to save up SP could at least put some money into this project. Plus, like you pointed out it would punish everyone who went FoTM in a month's time. Also it would be similar enough to Eve's attribute system. I don't understand how you have 22 mil SP and haven't figured out what you like. It sounds to me like you just want to train something to 5 RIGHT NOW, just like all the scrubs do. That is perfectly understandable, even I'll admit that grinding is a pain in the ass. However, it isn't exactly fair or noble. To someone like me with half your skill points that has invested them patiently, put in a lot of time in playing games, and spent a good amount of money in boosters, it really does take a huge amount of meaning out of this game. At your level you should know what kind of advantage you would gain. In fact I'm sure you do. Just play a few matches. Damn. Protostomp if you must. Because of your corp obligatory 10/10 if troll. If you believe a company does not have to be "apologetic" for a fatal flaw (IE: My baby carriage is faulty, malfunctioned, and my baby is dead)....then you sir are a rather uninformed, complacent, intellectually lacking, and terrible consumer/customer. Also read my previous response above this one in regards to yet another ignorant poster who assumed wrong as to my SP investments. These 2 points are indefinitely Irrelevant to the discussion. On the AUR per 1 year Respec I can agree as this would generate revenue for CCP without a frequency that entails "Pay-to-Win", should it be accepted by the majority. This would fit decently into Step 3 of my proposal. There is still no valid argument to devalue/alter Steps 1 & 2, as you surely have presented Nil in those regards.
Midas Fool Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 151	Posted - 2013.08.16 09:43:00 - [28] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: If you believe a company does not have to be "apologetic" for a fatal flaw (IE: My baby carriage is faulty, malfunctioned, and my baby is dead)....then you sir are a rather uninformed, complacent, intellectually lacking, and terrible consumer/customer. Also read my previous response above this one in regards to yet another ignorant poster who assumed wrong as to my SP investments. These 2 points are indefinitely Irrelevant to the discussion. On the AUR per 1 year Respec I can agree as this would generate revenue for CCP without a frequency that entails "Pay-to-Win", should it be accepted by the majority. This would fit decently into Step 3 of my proposal. There is still no valid argument to devalue/alter Steps 1 & 2, as you surely have presented Nil in those regards. If I research until I understand a product that I'm putting money into, and then spend an exorbitant amount of time learning that product in and out so that I can execute it to mastery I am a terrible consumer Oh huh the reviews for this baby carriage are awful and the company that makes it is not very reputable for putting out quality products and because buying a baby carriage is of the equivalent level of importance to what I do in a free-to-play game I asked around and everyone tells me not to buy it I will go with another product instead. My child isn't dead and and as an ironically morbid metaphor my online video game character is happy and well off. It is a matter of responsibility, but I suppose people who play video games aren't expected to have a lot of it. I am STILL laughing at "intellectually lacking". It's like I'm in middle school again. Edit: I responded to 1 and 2 in my first sentence.
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 194	Posted - 2013.08.16 09:51:00 - [29] - Quote Phantom Vaxer wrote: I say partial respecs at least for those people who miss out of upcoming options. Like Heavies getting respecs due to only having the option of Amarr when the other suits come. Its only fair when us meduim suit users got plenty of options when the respec came as opposed to heavies and scouts. This would be acceptable were it not for some other specializations requiring the same (IE: Scout/Pilot Dropsuits, Vehicle Tiers/Racials, and SP Sinkholes). Considered the situation a mass Respec would be easier to implement and a more functionally suitable alternative given current conditions. Should the order of operations fall in place as follows: Skill System Revamp/Finishing (SP Sinkhole Elimination) -> Dropsuit/Vehicle Variants Then I 100% agree with partial Respecs as it would be taken on a Suit/Vehicle Type (Light/Medium/Heavy & Dropship/HAV) basis. There is 1 issue with this in regards to Vehicle SP as LAV is tied directly to HAV SP investments. So should a LAV change incite a HAV Respec & vice-versa??? Also.....this is a conditional proposal since if the above path is reversed the Skill System Respec would incite a mass Respec after the fact, which would overall be considered a "Wash". Although this could very well take the place of the bi/quad-monthly Respec, and would require less overall mass Respecs in the long run until the Skill System Respec comes to fruition. Overall exceptional input. Your feedback is appreciated
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 195	Posted - 2013.08.16 10:02:00 - [30] - Quote George Moros wrote: @OP: Although I agree with your several points, most importantly concerning DUST being an unfinished product which will probably see some major changes/balances in the future, the general idea of giving regular respecs to players is bad. While it would certainly help new players to learn the ropes and give them a chance to try out different roles / playstyles, it would completely kill the "character development" concept of the game, including the "decisions matter" part. So, with respect to that, here's my suggestion: Every new created character gets, say, 3 respecs from day one. He can use them any time they choose, but they have to be spent until a certain SP cap is reached (10M SP?). If you still have respecs left when you hit the cap, you are allowed one last respec, and that's it. Here's my reasoning: Since making wrong decisions regarding SP investment can definitely be painful to new players, it shouldn't be as painful to those with significant SP pools. I'm speaking from my EVE experience here. At the current stage of my EVE character development (>120M SP), it doesn't really bother me whether CCP buffs or nerfs any ship (or entire class of ships). As far as subcapital ships are concerned, I can fly them all, with almost perfect skills. So, respecs give new players the option to try out different playstyles before committing to any one specific. But once you reach a certain point, you have enough experience (both as a player and SP-wise) to know what you want, and how to get to it. At that point, you should have adequate skills to be reasonably competitive with at least one loadout (meaning, proto suit, weapons and gear), and have decently trained core skills so that if you change your mind for any reason, you can crosstrain in a reasonably short time. This is certainly acceptable once we reach the Step 2 Phase. Until then it is not entirely about Nerfs/Buffs.....but irresponsibly placed content (SP Sinkholes being the major issue that stands out). A player/customer should not be punished for the irresponsibility of the creator(s) of said product. Nonetheless this would be an acceptable ammendment to Step 3 as it would allow a bit of flexibility for new players, with the option for those who saved to bank 1 Respec, while still promoting the eventually intended MMO experience. Thank you very much, your feedback is certainly appreciated

Midas Fool Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 151	Posted - 2013.08.16 10:11:00 - [31] - Quote xSaloLx wrote: The benefit of a respec is that it shows these imbalances almost immediately, whereas it might take weeks or months for people to be able abuse them anyway. "The benefit of a respec is that everyone can spec into/out of FoTM immediately, and I (the average merc) don't have to worry that I didn't think ahead and conserve SP before I do it myself." This man is your god.
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 196	Posted - 2013.08.16 10:21:00 - [32] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Ninjanomyx wrote: This "Tiericide" seems an intriguing notion, but it begs the query that this "Specialization" you propose is what we already have, but with less of a gap.....which entails "Tiers", thus negating the initial intention of "Tiericide". My understanding of this may be vague at best.....but wouldn't true "Tiericide" entail only having variations and no "Tiers"??? Wouldn't that essentially be like most base shooters and not an MMO (Equipment determines playstyle and nothing more)??? Nonetheless....either of the 2 changes would require a rather extensive overhaul that would take an enormous amount of time, thus still validating the necessity for Steps 1 & 2 of my presented proposal. In order to better facilitate the testing phase it is necessary to have ample "Breathing Room". Specialisation will mainly occur through passive skill bonuses and picking a variant of a weapon. So instead of picking an assault rifle because you like mid-range combat, there will be a variant with a red dot sight in exchange for less hipfire accuracy so you are truly specialised into mid-range combat, but have a weakness at CQC. At the moment, there is NO weakness going up in tiers for dropsuit items. A GEK is overall better than the standard AR. Tiercide implements strengths, but also weaknesses. Also, I forgot to mention that modules will retain maybe 2 tiers, or stay how they are. So yes, it's not true tiercide. (note: this model for tiercide is simply what is the most supported by the community at the moment.) This essentially means some people will still have an advantage over others, but yes, it'll be a little less pronounced than the advantage currently. This is to satisfy those who want to have a clear advantage over newbies because they've played for longer (which I feel is a little selfish, but that's pure opinion) but also so that newbies can get into the game without being separated in an Academy which totally defeats the meaning of persistent universe as well. As this would only slightly diminish the traditional MMO development stigma I can see why this would be desirable from an FPS standpoint. It would somewhat diminish the monetization of a Free-to-Play MMOFPS.....so I believe that CCP would not choose to go this route for DUST 514 (Speculative Assumption). Although, as a well-rounded hardcore gamer myself, I respect the competitive aspect of "Gap Flattening". Had this been a subscription based title I would say it would be very possible & highly desirable.....but alas it is not
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7355	Posted - 2013.08.16 10:30:00 - [33] - Quote DCUO maxes out at 16 hours game time, argument example entirely invalid. Respecs are offered as they're more convenient to not hassel a player to not start a new character to experience the game in another fashion.
THE GREY CARDINAL PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 199	Posted - 2013.08.16 10:31:00 - [34] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: THE GREY CARDINAL wrote: Knocking on 20 mill SP here and so I think I could be classified as a vet. Here's a pearl of wisdom that has been finely refined over the course of my merc career: spec into what you want to play, not FotM. Seriously...if people did this you wouldn't need respecs. I'm full on proto gallente logibro with every single skill under DS core upgrades maxed, now I'm moving on to vehicle core upgrades and will be a gallente LLAV and LDS pilot (the power of OCD compells me to train whatever has 'logistics'on it). I have ALL of my SP 100% exactly where I want it, and I know exactly where the next 6 months of SP is going (literally, I have the list of skills ordered by priority :P). I love my merc and have no insecurity over my SP allocation. You guys aren't getting respecs...you need to let go of this dead horse and just smarten up. You misunderstand the concept..... We still have yet to attain what was initially presented & promised at launch. An example of this would be the Pilot Dropsuit. As a Vehicle Pilot I am personally at odds with this situation as I have been driven off the path to my initial goal due to lacking said content, and even diminishing/removal of content (IE: Removal of Black Ops "Prototype" HAVs & Prototype "Advanced" HAVs). So in order to maintain ample functionality on the battlefield via dropsuit option I have specialized into Minmatar Logistics, thus making use of the SVER BPO. It may be argued that the Minmatar Logistics specialization was a "Choice", yet what of the Scouts and Heavies who have been presented with no such option??? Is it "Fair" that the Medium Dropsuit specializers not only were provided such options, but were presented with a Respec twice to feel out their newfound options??? (I know this because I went from Caldari Tanker to Caldari Logistics to Gallente Tanker in a matter of roughly 1-2 Months "post-launch".....) It may also be stated that 1 of those 2 Respecs were based upon the changes to the skill tree. But.....isn't it blatantly obvious that the skill tree will once again be altered/revamped??? With the issue of majorly altered bonuses, lacking of bonuses & function (IE: Level 4-5 of Dropsuit Command, Vehicle Mobility, etc. having no unlock nor associated bonus, thus creating a TRUE "SP Sink), and overall misintegration after the separation of Dropsuit & Vehicle Skill Sectors.....I forsee indefinite and extreme skill tree revamping in the near future. So is this not a justification for an intended Respec??? I'm glad you selfishly enjoy your unintended launch content Respec into Gallente Logistics, and I applaud your contentness with your "Choice" considered the fact you would have initially been stuck with the SVER BPO, Logistics Starter Fit, or at max Logistics vk0/vk1 (vk1 being essentially Minmatar Logistics GASP). But to you I say this "Dead Horse" has in fact "Smartened Up", and you have thusly been deemed Irrelevant. Thank you for not contributing to this discussion, your feedback is not welcome. PS: You are not a Vet unless you were in Closed BETA for quite some time (E3/Replication for example. You are simply a Seasoned Newberry If CCP deem a respec necessary due to skill tree revamp etc, that's fine. What isn't is short sighted noobs speccing into short sighted areas that they don't really care for (FotM). The lack of dropsuit variants is part and parcel of being into a game that is a work in progress. If you wanta completed product, go buy a retail FPS game, CCP doesn't owe you anything. Well, I'm a happy merc, you're not...so I win. With each game I move further along with my training goals while you sit here hoping for that which will probably not happen (though you may catch a lucky break via CCP warranting respec). Also, I have been here since E3 build.
Oscar Neymar Dogz O War D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 4	Posted - 2013.08.16 10:47:00 - [35] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: I'm a 22 Mil SP, 600 Mil ISK, Top 50 Killboard, Top 20 WP Board, Tanker Main w/ Minmatar Logi Sub who dabbled in Caldari Logi OP TAC AR Hacked EXO FOTM for ***** 'n giggles (All on just this Character). You obviously did not learn reading/comprehension if you are making these utterly ignorant assertions. You even further validate my point in your final "paragraph". You must also be new to DUST 514 if you did not know these facts and are now entitled to a Respec. You provided nothing valid to this discussion and have thusly been deemed Irrelevant Now where was that trumpet of mine I wanted to blow
Kalante Schiffer Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 386	Posted - 2013.08.16 10:50:00 - [36] - Quote do you know how i feel wasting over 1,000,000 million sp on useless skills such as the AR PG optimization that doesnt do anything and other useless stuff? it is completely ridiculous. i wish i had my sp back. i dont know why people think that respects is a bad idea. this game is not even finished yet.
Soldiersaint Deepspace Digital 340	Posted - 2013.08.16 10:51:00 - [37] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: Karl Koekwaus wrote: So you are saying that you have trouble figuring out how the skillpoint system works. You do know you can train multiple races of suits and you can even train both Assault AND logistics of suits, you don't need a respec to try something different, you can just train it. also; Vets aren't the ones who benefit most from respecs, since they have enough skills to train multiple races and weapons anyway. Respecs are only nice for those who can't train a single suit up to lvl 3 with the appropriate gear and weapons. I'm a 22 Mil SP, 600 Mil ISK, Top 50 Killboard, Top 20 WP Board, Tanker Main w/ Minmatar Logi Sub who dabbled in Caldari Logi OP TAC AR Hacked EXO FOTM for ***** 'n giggles (All on just this Character). You obviously did not learn reading/comprehension if you are making these utterly ignorant assertions. You even further validate my point in your final "paragraph". You must also be new to DUST 514 if you did not know these facts and are now entitled to a Respec. You provided nothing valid to this discussion and have thusly been deemed Irrelevant Im glad you have all the time in the world to get 22 mil. we don't have the glorious luxury
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 197	Posted - 2013.08.16 11:15:00 - [38] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: DUST will never be a finished product like EVE will never be a finished product so having an "unfinished" game isn't a good argument. Refunding SP will not help with enjoyment, player retention, or entice new players to start and stay. Refunding will only make the game seem different for a short while and the same cycle of boredom will continue. Our problem is lack of content. All racial suits, weapons and vehicles would solve many problems. PvE is another major step to keeping players around. Flavor of the month builds will always be here and our job as players is to provide feedback that can be used to help ensure that the fotm is not op. Flavors are good and show that the community is able to adapt and learn what is good. Tiericide was used in EVE to bring ships of the same size more in line with each other and allow lower SP pilots to fly a different ship in the same tech level. Instead of having to wait to level 5 skills to fly a frigate one can now fly any t1 frigate with lvl 1 skill and then the pilot can put more SP into that ship type to make it better. This game isn't that difficult to learn and almost all information is available in the description of the item or skill. EVE's skill sets make this game look like pacman and if someone was to ask for a respec they would be laughed out of the game. This is CCP's game and their vision, we we invited to play and provide feedback to help progress and better the game not fundamentally change it by brow beating developers into changes that we want. This game will never be as popular as many other fps because it is different. They didn't add zombies and calm it new or and better sounds and make you pay $60 again. The only things that will draw players in and keep us here is good content. No other gimmick is going to work because the people who want this game don't want another bland, pointless and repetitive shooter. We have that now and it sucks. We want something different. Want to make this game better? Then provide positive feedback that actually addresses a problem instated of a one sentence post calling CCP stupid. Play the stupid game and have fun. Skill into what you like not what is the best at the moment. Expect nerfs and buffs. Realize the game will never be finished and that there is no "end game" so complaining about how the game is unfinished is like complaining about water being wet. Content, content, and more content is what is needed. Everything else will work out later if we have something to do. Stagnation and boredom is killing us and nothing else. Buffs and nerfs do not change the player count and the reallocation of SP will only help for a few days and long winded diatribes like this one do very little. Play for fun and play other games, this isn't a second job. The game has seen marked improvement in every area and we are just now getting to the good stuff, let's not screw it up by changing our focus onto a gimmick that will not help us in the long run. My posts are far from "One Sentence".....and I presented my ideas as clear & concise as humanly possible. I completely agree that we are severely lacking in content, and that is a problem indeed. Had you digested the post instead of skimming through haphazardly you may have found that I noted this as an issue. Providing a Respec is not as resource intensive as you make it out to be. It does not halt game development progress. Sure.....the rather burdensome (On both ends.....) process of that 2nd "Optional Respec" was resource intensive simply because CCP opted to force GMs to unnecessarily sift through Support Petition Tickets in order to Respec on a case-by-case basis. This is not what I proposed at all..... If you take note of precedence then you would understand why a mass Respec should happen, at least once, upon the skill tree revisions/fixes. Also note the precedence of the partial SP Respec when Dropsuit SP cost was lowered, and you only needed Level 3 Basic to get to Specialization. So when Racials & Vehicle Tiers are brought in line, & SP Sinkholes are remedied, then.....& only then should your particular "EVE HTFU" line of thought apply. This is a Free-to-Play model MMOFPS, not a Subscription Model Spreadsheet Spaceships MMORPG. They simply cannot, and should not, be handled in the same manner. These presented situational mass & partial Respecs are absolutely necessary until the fundamentals are established. This is not an "In place of" solution but an "In conjunction with" proposal..... And as a Tank Main.....it is a job/chore since anyone on my team can essentially halt my progress, diminish the value, increase risk, decrease reward (All while they get "Carried" to Risk-Free WP/SP/ISK), and disable functionality (Recall, fire at air or turret emplacements thus generating Aggro, refuse to exit when you wish to swap fits, etc.) This happens waaaaaay too often and it is killing off this player's "Retension". And not having the Pilot Dropsuit (Which was promised/intended at launch) to skill into doesn't help either. Heck.....having to deal with being forced into a 2-Tier gap disadvantage doesn't exactly promote a healthy environment. I can go on for days.....but at the end of the day EVE and DUST are 1 side of a different coin each respectively and must be treated as such. 2 different monetization models, 2 different genres, and 2 entirely different playerbases. You cannot hand a Vegan Jew a Pork Chop and expect smiles..... You toss them a Mayin Chaim Soda with a Kosher Dill Pickle & send 'em off with a smile
pierce Hawkeye BurgezzE.T.F 93	Posted - 2013.08.16 11:27:00 - [39] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: Since most Forumers only read the Opening Post I have decided to Repost this to generate Feedback: DCUO has paid Respecs so it is not unfathomable.....but I prefer not to advocate this route. Everyone claiming "This is EVE/New Eden HTFU!!!!!" are ignorant to the fact that this is soooooooooo far removed from that..... 1st & foremost it is an FPS, partially developed with MAG associates, & that had "Earned Respecs" over time/gameplay. DUST also lacks the substance to grant it MMO status. There is no meaningful interaction between DUST & EVE. The vast majority of the skill tree is ever-changing & vastly unfinished (SP Sinks where final 2 Levels offer no unlock/bonus). Promised launch content is missing. Core functions/mechanics are either not present or buggy. Player market is unavailable to even determine value of loot. There is almost no balance or player retension incentive. Marketplace items/statistics are still disgustingly flawed. And I won't even bother mentioning how vehicle functions are punished & unrewarding b/c I could write a dissertation on this subject alone..... Technically.....until the core mechanics, balancing foundation, PvE & other launch promised content, DUST-to-EVE & vice versa interactions, player market, vehicular function/protection, skill tree foundation to eliminate SP "Sand Traps", and even racial variants of current suits/vehicles (Including Pilot Dropsuit) are in place......we are still in BETA testing mode and it should be treated as such (Minus RESET as this would utterly kill player retension at this point.....) This all points to 1 fact.....this is not yet an MMOFPS, it is a BETA for a Lobby Shooter. Considering the above facts/factors I would like to propose this: 1. Respec of Lifetime SP every 2-4 months (Depending on time between major content additions/alterations) until the core fuctionality, promised gear/vehicles, and skill tree are presented in full to promote the testing aspect. 2. Respec of Lifetime SP 1 more time immediately after DUST is determined to at least be lobby shooter competent & initial content complete, with a functional skill tree and core balancing foundation in place. 3. Respec of Lifetime SP every 1 year (Stackable at this point) to promote longevity and slight experimental flexibility to alter the Meta, thus keeping DUST feeling "Fresh" over time. And 1 Lifetime SP Respec for new players within 30 days of exiting a properly structured Battle Academy. (Allows ample time to research & ask for build advice via community, as per any MMO) I feel that these steps would be beneficial to the longevity of this title as it would bolster player retension. The arguments against it fall flat in the grand scheme of things. Some say that this will only promote "FOTM Chasers", and while that may be true it also is not hurting anyone but themselves. In the grand scheme of things we would get to experience the "other side of the fence", test the changes out, provide more frequent feedback on various intergrations without feeling "Punished", and pave the way to a final & true DUST 514. When we enter "Step 2" you may see some "FOTM Chasers".....but they only hurt themselves & their team. At this point there should be a sense of balance in place, and an "Escape Route" in the form of PvE. Example....a team of "FOTM Chasers" sporting Caldari Assault/Logi Dropsuits with ARs & Flaylocks go up against a team of Mixed Races/Gears. The sheer flexibility of a well-balanced cohesive team playing to eachother's weaknesses/strengths will get objectives faster, offset/negate the FOTM gear/weapon system, bait 'n switch tactics (Has Gallente Armor w/ AR bait Caldari Shield AR into fight w/ Caldari Shield with SCR/Laser, etc), & many other Meta-building strategies that make the "FOTM Chasers" essentially pointless, hence "Punished". At "Step 3" we now have a well-defined baseline and allow the "Punished FOTM Chasers" to fix their mistake after 1 year. All while also allowing everyone else to choose wether or not to alter their path, or bank their Respec, allowing for more diversity overall thus changing the Meta and providing the ever-changing combat we were once promised. We must look past the "This is New Eden/EVE" factor as we move forward if we are to hope for survival in this market. We cannot compare a subscription based pure spreadsheet MMORPG to what is to be a free-to-play MMOFPS. Though they may be set in the same Universe they are 2 entirely separate "Beasts", and should be "Tamed" according to their respective behaviors. We do not teach a turtle to jump just as we do not coax a penguin to fly, nor an ant to swim Brilliant
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 198	Posted - 2013.08.16 11:44:00 - [40] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: Ninjanomyx wrote: If you believe a company does not have to be "apologetic" for a fatal flaw (IE: My baby carriage is faulty, malfunctioned, and my baby is dead)....then you sir are a rather uninformed, complacent, intellectually lacking, and terrible consumer/customer. Also read my previous response above this one in regards to yet another ignorant poster who assumed wrong as to my SP investments. These 2 points are indefinitely Irrelevant to the discussion. On the AUR per 1 year Respec I can agree as this would generate revenue for CCP without a frequency that entails "Pay-to-Win", should it be accepted by the majority. This would fit decently into Step 3 of my proposal. There is still no valid argument to devalue/alter Steps 1 & 2, as you surely have presented Nil in those regards. If I research until I understand a product that I'm putting money into, and then spend an exorbitant amount of time learning that product in and out so that I can execute it to mastery I am a terrible consumer Oh huh the reviews for this baby carriage are awful and the company that makes it is not very reputable for putting out quality products and because buying a baby carriage is of the equivalent level of importance to what I do in a free-to-play game I asked around and everyone tells me not to buy it I will go with another product instead. My child isn't dead and and as an ironically morbid metaphor my online video game character is happy and well off. It is a matter of responsibility, but I suppose people who play video games aren't expected to have a lot of it. I am STILL laughing at "intellectually lacking". It's like I'm in middle school again. Edit: I responded to 1 and 2 in my first sentence. A product may or may not be noted of its flaws until sometimes many years after its production/release cycle. It may very well get boastful reviews and be sung songs of praises & honor until, on that fated day, the evils of said product come to light. You are rather shortsighted, like a horse with blinders, in not seeing the big picture as this scenario has been proven relevant time & again. EVE players, more often than not, provide ample E-Peen stroking for the CCP "Sweet Release. CCP makes DUST 514 and the Kool-Aid has set in so deep that those wide-eyed fanboys accept their *****-dipped fellatio sessions with a grin & a nod. As "Outsiders" we "Pure DUSTers" can objectively view the state of the game & take a look at the bigger picture. It is not the "Responsibility" of the gamer to see into the future, but to live in the moment, hope for the best, and fight for what we believe is right en masse. As for your "Edit" you provided nothing substantially constructive, nor destructive, in your first sentence.....thusly Invalidating said feedback. You have been learned

Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 198	Posted - 2013.08.16 11:47:00 - [41] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: xSaloLx wrote: The benefit of a respec is that it shows these imbalances almost immediately, whereas it might take weeks or months for people to be able abuse them anyway. "The benefit of a respec is that everyone can spec into/out of FoTM immediately, and I (the average merc) don't have to worry that I didn't think ahead and conserve SP before I do it myself." This man is your god. And you are his Troll
Captain-Awesome Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 478	Posted - 2013.08.16 11:52:00 - [42] - Quote I am both for and against respecs. I think there are 2 reasons as to why we need them: 1. New players / weapons (aka a lack of understanding to the skills we attain) This is because we haven't "tested" the desired effect on our characters and thus have no way of knowing the impact it has on the field. 2. New builds introduce changes to items and our experience with the game When a tac AR is no longer a viable solution, the flaylock is no longer as effective as it used to - changes to an item you once thought was "normal" is no longer. I think there are also reasons NOT to have respecs. or at the least, full respecs. Skill spending loses value if you can just "respec" at a given point and the value and importance of training should always be a carefully planned process, at the moment we are earning crazy amounts more than eve players, with a ton of resets already (we are not in beta, we just think it's so bad it's like a beta) I would rather (as you said) respecs for those under 5 million sp - but I wouldn't say unlimited, I would think 10 is enough I would then say a refund of all skills that are affected by changes in an upcoming build. I think that we need to stop saying "the game is in beta" and more "Item A,B and C" are still in beta... because they are. The game is classed as release, but when untested and constantly changing items are apparent, we need to put our hands up and say "ok, we are released, but some things are still in beta phase". That beta phase is what we should be refunded on.
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 198	Posted - 2013.08.16 12:03:00 - [43] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: DCUO maxes out at 16 hours game time, argument example entirely invalid. Respecs are offered as they're more convenient to not hassel a player to not start a new character to experience the game in another fashion. DCUO has Raids/Alerts & other PvE instances, multiple Skill Point challenges, Loot Drops, seasonal content, the list goes on.....just for PvE. Then there's PvE and its similarly associated grinds. DCUO also went pay-to-win in every aspect.....which is why I quit after also being a BETA Founder & one of (If not THE) top Mental Controller/DPS in both PvE & PvP, noted for being a staple amongst the top Villain Leagues. I'd rather not watch this "Crash & Burn" as I really want to love this title & make it my home. But I suppose there's always Metal Gear since Hideo Kojima has yet to let me down..... So not only are you Irrelevant to DUST 514.....but now DCUO???? I assume to gaming in general at this point..... Also, you presented a "Double Negative" in your above lack of feedback..... Are you Irrelevant in any other languages??? Do tell
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 198	Posted - 2013.08.16 12:08:00 - [44] - Quote THE GREY CARDINAL wrote: Ninjanomyx wrote: THE GREY CARDINAL wrote: Knocking on 20 mill SP here and so I think I could be classified as a vet. Here's a pearl of wisdom that has been finely refined over the course of my merc career: spec into what you want to play, not FotM. Seriously...if people did this you wouldn't need respecs. I'm full on proto gallente logibro with every single skill under DS core upgrades maxed, now I'm moving on to vehicle core upgrades and will be a gallente LLAV and LDS pilot (the power of OCD compells me to train whatever has 'logistics'on it). I have ALL of my SP 100% exactly where I want it, and I know exactly where the next 6 months of SP is going (literally, I have the list of skills ordered by priority :P). I love my merc and have no insecurity over my SP allocation. You guys aren't getting respecs...you need to let go of this dead horse and just smarten up. You misunderstand the concept..... We still have yet to attain what was initially presented & promised at launch. An example of this would be the Pilot Dropsuit. As a Vehicle Pilot I am personally at odds with this situation as I have been driven off the path to my initial goal due to lacking said content, and even diminishing/removal of content (IE: Removal of Black Ops "Prototype" HAVs & Prototype "Advanced" HAVs). So in order to maintain ample functionality on the battlefield via dropsuit option I have specialized into Minmatar Logistics, thus making use of the SVER BPO. It may be argued that the Minmatar Logistics specialization was a "Choice", yet what of the Scouts and Heavies who have been presented with no such option??? Is it "Fair" that the Medium Dropsuit specializers not only were provided such options, but were presented with a Respec twice to feel out their newfound options??? (I know this because I went from Caldari Tanker to Caldari Logistics to Gallente Tanker in a matter of roughly 1-2 Months "post-launch".....) It may also be stated that 1 of those 2 Respecs were based upon the changes to the skill tree. But.....isn't it blatantly obvious that the skill tree will once again be altered/revamped??? With the issue of majorly altered bonuses, lacking of bonuses & function (IE: Level 4-5 of Dropsuit Command, Vehicle Mobility, etc. having no unlock nor associated bonus, thus creating a TRUE "SP Sink), and overall misintegration after the separation of Dropsuit & Vehicle Skill Sectors.....I forsee indefinite and extreme skill tree revamping in the near future. So is this not a justification for an intended Respec??? I'm glad you selfishly enjoy your unintended launch content Respec into Gallente Logistics, and I applaud your contentness with your "Choice" considered the fact you would have initially been stuck with the SVER BPO, Logistics Starter Fit, or at max Logistics vk0/vk1 (vk1 being essentially Minmatar Logistics GASP). But to you I say this "Dead Horse" has in fact "Smartened Up", and you have thusly been deemed Irrelevant. Thank you for not contributing to this discussion, your feedback is not welcome. PS: You are not a Vet unless you were in Closed BETA for quite some time (E3/Replication for example. You are simply a Seasoned Newberry If CCP deem a respec necessary due to skill tree revamp etc, that's fine. What isn't is short sighted noobs speccing into short sighted areas that they don't really care for (FotM). The lack of dropsuit variants is part and parcel of being into a game that is a work in progress. If you wanta completed product, go buy a retail FPS game, CCP doesn't owe you anything. Well, I'm a happy merc, you're not...so I win. With each game I move further along with my training goals while you sit here hoping for that which will probably not happen (though you may catch a lucky break via CCP warranting respec). Also, I have been here since E3 build. Your blatantly obvious non-constructive, troll post, full of Irrelevance has been duly noted & accounted for
Vickers S Grunt Expert Intervention Caldari State 209	Posted - 2013.08.16 12:15:00 - [45] - Quote Don't u realize this will kill the game ? I use boosters i like to train stuff to level 3 then use the aurum mods for proto until i decide if i really like it . If i get a respec i can guarantee that i will never spend another penny on aurum why would i ??? I have now twenty million skill points enough to max out any role and i know exactly which guns i prefer to use . So why would i use aurum ? Also what u are suggesting takes away from any sense of accomplishment for getting new gear for me .
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 200	Posted - 2013.08.16 12:37:00 - [46] - Quote Vickers S Grunt wrote: Don't u realize this will kill the game ? I use boosters i like to train stuff to level 3 then use the aurum mods for proto until i decide if i really like it . If i get a respec i can guarantee that i will never spend another penny on aurum why would i ??? I have now twenty million skill points enough to max out any role and i know exactly which guns i prefer to use . So why would i use aurum ? Also what u are suggesting takes away from any sense of accomplishment for getting new gear for me . I'm fully aware that it may somewhat depreciate the urge to spend AUR for some instances, but not in totality. If the core functions (Racials, Vehicle Tiers, Pilot Dropsuit, and Skill Tree Fixes) are implemented en masse, and/or sooner rather than later (Skill Tree Issues being an optimal 1st), then we only necessitate 1 full & multiple partial Respecs in the grand schematics. Step 3 may be eliminated almost entirely (Save the Newberry Respec) and we could, in a "Perfect World", be left with 1 last mass Respec before Racial Variants, Vehicle Tiers, and even Weapon Variants are even implemented. Basically speaking.....the faster the Skill Tree gets sorted out, the less opportunity for Respec "Whoring" as the content gets delivered. This does little-to-nothing to depreciate the value of AUR as you still have the incentive to try new things out of your chosen Race/Type via AUR purchases. This is, after all, a discussion and is subject to change as the discussion progresses. And in the end it is for US to decide what stays & what goes, and then for CCP to decide wether or not to go forth with OUR collective agreement. Your feedback is greatly appreciated
Vickers S Grunt Expert Intervention Caldari State 209	Posted - 2013.08.16 12:55:00 - [47] - Quote The thing is i am still very much against a respec its just not how i want the game to be and i imagine i am not the only one . This is one of the most sensible and constructive arguments for respec that i have seen but i still don't want it ! So how will we ever reach a collective agreement ? I appreciate your appreciation
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 200	Posted - 2013.08.16 14:00:00 - [48] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: DCUO maxes out at 16 hours game time, argument example entirely invalid. Respecs are offered as they're more convenient to not hassel a player to not start a new character to experience the game in another fashion. I apologize only for not addressing this..... It's just that seeing your name associated with the CPM inspires immediate ire. It's like giving Spongebob a boating license.....a terrible idea. In regards to the BOLDed statement you are almost entirely incorrect and disturbingly misinformed (As usual........) Respec Tokens were offeren in DCUO as per the following events/reasons : When the Lantern Powerset was implemented it came with multiple bugs/issues. One of these bugs/issues was noted with precedence to a previously unaltered Skill Point/Challenge Exploit with the Movement Type altering equipments (Batman's Gauntlets, Joker's Jetpack, & Flash's Boots), which were only obtained as a Rare Drop in The Vault (Daily Instance). Should you equip said gear outside of your chosen Movement Type you could log off, relog, and suddenly gain the Challenge/Feat associated with said Movement Type, leading to unintended Skill Point gain. The same occured when changing from a Non-Controller Powerset (Tank/Healer) to the Controller Powerset via Lantern Token, except there were now multiple Feats associated with Powersets. This led to a community outcry as Skill Points are permanent statistical bolsters, and having a select few with normally unattainable Skill Points was a distinct advantage. Players who felt the Lantern Powerset was underpowered & broken were provided a Respec via Support Ticket, and went on to find out that changing their Movement/Powerset to the 3rd previously unchosen Powerset led to even more Feat unlocks, and even allowed repeating Race (As in Time Trials) associated Feats, even for Seasonal Events. This led to excessively inflated Skill Point gains. Like a typical "Lazy Developer" SoE left this issue/collision unchecked. But like any "Good" Marketing Department.....the dollar signs lit up in their eyes & they monetized the F*K out of these exploits, hence the birth of the ANYTIME/ALL THE TIME Respec Token (Powerset, Movement Type, Name Change, and even the completely pointless Weapon Type.....) Then they figured "What the hell.....why wait to grind in an MMORPG???" and thus the Replay Token was born.....then it also tainted PvP.....and then I QUIT. See??? The "Problem" wasn't the Respec persey, but the situations/conditions that led to them, and the frequency of use for which they were allowed. It was not the idea of Respec that pushed me away, but the over-monetization of it, and the unresolved exploit it stemmed from, and the SHTSTORM that followed..... It's uninformed, say whatever comes to "Mind", hardcore-poser casuals like yourself that irk me to no end. Do your homework before you make an assertion kid..... I cannot wait 'till the day they swipe that CPM "Badge" & toss you back to "Reality" where you shall remain the Irrelevant Non-Factor you present yourself as. And I'll rest easy when you are lightyears away from any form of "Representation" in balancing discussions and presentations that are supposed to help shape DUST 514..... May a statue of you be formed with 1 HP, in the essential likeness of Jita, on the Line Harvest battlefield so that we may permanently pelt you into oblivion as you suffer infinite deaths/pain ala Prometheus
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 200	Posted - 2013.08.16 14:06:00 - [49] - Quote Vickers S Grunt wrote: The thing is i am still very much against a respec its just not how i want the game to be and i imagine i am not the only one . This is one of the most sensible and constructive arguments for respec that i have seen but i still don't want it ! So how will we ever reach a collective agreement ? I appreciate your appreciation It is a matter of diplomacy as majority rules. There has to be a compromise and a resolution before action can be taken. I have shown ample willingness to compromise as the discussion progresses. I hope that we may soon (Not SoonGäó.....) come to a copasetic conclusion in this endeavor. I appreciate your appreciation for my appreciation
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 383	Posted - 2013.08.16 14:39:00 - [50] - Quote there should be a respec once all the racial tanks/vehicles/suits are in. you were force to skill up into a very limited amount of content which does not promote variety at all and makes balance a serious problem. how are you going to balance stuff out quickly when everyone has skilled in almost the same stuff?

Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 201	Posted - 2013.08.16 19:13:00 - [51] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: there should be a respec once all the racial tanks/vehicles/suits are in. you were force to skill up into a very limited amount of content which does not promote variety at all and makes balance a serious problem. how are you going to balance stuff out quickly when everyone has skilled in almost the same stuff? Exactly..... It is the allowance of this "Homogenized" experience that has essentially lead to the CoDdlefield 514 we see today
Midas Fool Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 153	Posted - 2013.08.17 01:06:00 - [52] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: A product may or may not be noted of its flaws until sometimes many years after its production/release cycle. It may very well get boastful reviews and be sung songs of praises & honor until, on that fated day, the evils of said product come to light. You are rather shortsighted, like a horse with blinders, in not seeing the big picture as this scenario has been proven relevant time & again. EVE players, more often than not, provide ample E-Peen stroking for the CCP "Sweet Release. CCP makes DUST 514 and the Kool-Aid has set in so deep that those wide-eyed fanboys accept their ***-dipped fellatio sessions with a grin & a nod. As "Outsiders" we "Pure DUSTers" can objectively view the state of the game & take a look at the bigger picture. It is not the "Responsibility" of the gamer to see into the future, but to live in the moment, hope for the best, and fight for what we believe is right en masse. As for your "Edit" you provided nothing substantially constructive, nor destructive, in your first sentence.....thusly Invalidating said feedback. You have been learned I'm going to put what you said in the way that I understood it. "I refuse to take responsibility for my actions if another party is involved. I fall for the hype and marketing and therefore everyone else must have as well; therefore those who had the foresight to not be as gullible as I should feel just as entitled when my actions prove to be wrong. If they don't then clearly they are clearly the ones who were shortsighted, nay, blind because my perspective in perfectly justifiable. Allow me to use an example involving horse blinders, because narrowing a horse's field of view is the equivalent to being a responsible consumer. Don't those responsible consumers realize that the entitled ones are willing to break the system to my...er their advantage? If only the horse knew just how far you could stretch the world he's been given." I don't really understand this part. Something about Eve and then sucking? How did you get here from horse analogies? Besides I haven't played Eve in 2 months. I've been playing Dust. And apparently sucking CCP's by doing so. Sorry that I've invested serious time and effort into this game and I don't want to see it devalued. I stated that you created the false dilemma of CCP owing you a respec in points 1 and 2 of your OP. You did. CCP never said anything about players getting respecs when new content comes out. And respecs aren't required to make this game "complete". But apparently "I'm just going to say that your point isn't valid, so therefore it isn't." SMILEY FACE This is so fcking dumb. Respecs will give you (the vet) an unfair advantage and devalue SP. This game was not specifically made for NInjanomix, and it doesn't have to cater to you. It doesn't matter if respecs would make it "easier" or in your opinion "more correct". How do you not understand this? Do you buy "as seen on TV" products? No, they have a reputation for being cheap and short-lived. Do you buy new clothing and wear it for a week before you realize you don't have money for gas, so you return the clothes? No you plan a budget and priortize. Do you go to restaurant and eat your entire meal and then ask for your money back because you didn't like it? No, you order carefully then inspect your food upon arrival to see if it was properly prepared. Do you honestly believe that not owning up and paying like everyone else makes you more intelligent or open-minded? Ninjanomyx wrote: It is not the "Responsibility" of the gamer to plan or own up to consequences, but to live in the moment, ** around, be nonproductive, and then blame others in disbelief when things don't go his way. Fixed this for you. Fckin inspirational man. Make this your signature.
Obodiah Garro Tech Guard General Tso's Alliance 219	Posted - 2013.08.17 01:09:00 - [53] - Quote No more respec, k thanks
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7375	Posted - 2013.08.17 01:16:00 - [54] - Quote Dust does offer alts though because in all theory, that new alt isn't your main character as a person. He did not graduate from the Caldari Army Academy, he did not take up the caldari logistics he certainly didn't make the mistake of training on how to use flaylocks. Your main character however regrets his life decisions but has to live with them.
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 207	Posted - 2013.08.17 01:22:00 - [55] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: Ninjanomyx wrote: A product may or may not be noted of its flaws until sometimes many years after its production/release cycle. It may very well get boastful reviews and be sung songs of praises & honor until, on that fated day, the evils of said product come to light. You are rather shortsighted, like a horse with blinders, in not seeing the big picture as this scenario has been proven relevant time & again. EVE players, more often than not, provide ample E-Peen stroking for the CCP "Sweet Release. CCP makes DUST 514 and the Kool-Aid has set in so deep that those wide-eyed fanboys accept their ***-dipped fellatio sessions with a grin & a nod. As "Outsiders" we "Pure DUSTers" can objectively view the state of the game & take a look at the bigger picture. It is not the "Responsibility" of the gamer to see into the future, but to live in the moment, hope for the best, and fight for what we believe is right en masse. As for your "Edit" you provided nothing substantially constructive, nor destructive, in your first sentence.....thusly Invalidating said feedback. You have been learned I'm going to put what you said in the way that I understood it. "I refuse to take responsibility for my actions if another party is involved. I fall for the hype and marketing and therefore everyone else must have as well; therefore those who had the foresight to not be as gullible as I should feel just as entitled when my actions prove to be wrong. If they don't then clearly they are clearly the ones who were shortsighted, nay, blind because my perspective in perfectly justifiable. Allow me to use an example involving horse blinders, because narrowing a horse's field of view is the equivalent to being a responsible consumer. Don't those responsible consumers realize that the entitled ones are willing to break the system to my...er their advantage? If only the horse knew just how far you could stretch the world he's been given." I don't really understand this part. Something about Eve and then sucking? How did you get here from horse analogies? Besides I haven't played Eve in 2 months. I've been playing Dust. And apparently sucking CCP's by doing so. Sorry that I've invested serious time and effort into this game and I don't want to see it devalued. I stated that you created the false dilemma of CCP owing you a respec in points 1 and 2 of your OP. You did. CCP never said anything about players getting respecs when new content comes out. And respecs aren't required to make this game "complete". But apparently "I'm just going to say that your point isn't valid, so therefore it isn't." SMILEY FACE This is so fcking dumb. Respecs will give you (the vet) an unfair advantage and devalue SP. This game was not specifically made for NInjanomix, and it doesn't have to cater to you. It doesn't matter if respecs would make it "easier" or in your opinion "more correct". How do you not understand this? Do you buy "as seen on TV" products? No, they have a reputation for being cheap and short-lived. Do you buy new clothing and wear it for a week before you realize you don't have money for gas, so you return the clothes? No you plan a budget and priortize. Do you go to restaurant and eat your entire meal and then ask for your money back because you didn't like it? No, you order carefully then inspect your food upon arrival to see if it was properly prepared. Do you honestly believe that not owning up and paying like everyone else makes you more intelligent or open-minded? Ninjanomyx wrote: It is not the "Responsibility" of the gamer to plan or own up to consequences, but to live in the moment, ** around, be nonproductive, and then blame others in disbelief when things don't go his way. Fixed this for you. Fckin inspirational man. Make this your signature. At the very least you get a 4/10 for Trolling & an A for "Effort". Your lack of constructive criticism & relevant feedback has thusly labeled your input as void in regards to this discussion. Thanx for trying nonetheless, KthxBAI
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 207	Posted - 2013.08.17 01:25:00 - [56] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Dust does offer alts though because in all theory, that new alt isn't your main character as a person. He did not graduate from the Caldari Army Academy, he did not take up the caldari logistics he certainly didn't make the mistake of training on how to use flaylocks. Your main character however regrets his life decisions but has to live with them. Maybe one day a new hardware update goes out and improves the Logistics performance, maybe the arms race will lead to the flay lock getting useful again. Maybe you will be inspired to stay by the caldari side despite the betrayal when the gallente go apeshit on the caldari again. Gallente Tanker.....Minmatar Logistics. Go forth and continue digging a ditch for yourself.....& try not to fall asleep 'till you're done
Thor McStrut Reckoners 120	Posted - 2013.08.17 01:29:00 - [57] - Quote THE GREY CARDINAL wrote: Knocking on 20 mill SP here and so I think I could be classified as a vet. Here's a pearl of wisdom that has been finely refined over the course of my merc career: spec into what you want to play, not FotM. Seriously...if people did this you wouldn't need respecs. I'm full on proto gallente logibro with every single skill under DS core upgrades maxed, now I'm moving on to vehicle core upgrades and will be a gallente LLAV and LDS pilot (the power of OCD compells me to train whatever has 'logistics'on it). I have ALL of my SP 100% exactly where I want it, and I know exactly where the next 6 months of SP is going (literally, I have the list of skills ordered by priority :P). I love my merc and have no insecurity over my SP allocation. You guys aren't getting respecs...you need to let go of this dead horse and just smarten up. While the OP has written a fine post, one that I could almost get behind, ^^ this man has returned me to my senses. Great reply Cardinal.
Midas Fool Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 155	Posted - 2013.08.17 01:43:00 - [58] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: At the very least you get a 4/10 for Trolling & an A for "Effort". Your lack of constructive criticism & relevant feedback has thusly labeled your input as void in regards to this discussion. Thanx for trying nonetheless, KthxBAI Ninjanomyx wrote: Your blatantly obvious non-constructive, troll post, full of Irrelevance has been duly noted & accounted for Ninjanomyx wrote: Thank you for not contributing to this discussion, your feedback is not welcome. Wow...some big words there for a 13 year old. How dare I not agree with you. If I offer a dissenting opinion then my feedback is not welcome. Everyone who agrees with you however gets a gold star. I can see why you're so convincing. You should get into politics. I did Talking down to people is a good tactic, especially on the internet where nobody can smack you for it. However, it loses its power when used over and over, especially when out of place. You asked for these people's feedback on your proposal, and they gave it. SURPRISE! Not everyone wants to lose their hard work so you can spec FoTM. If you don't want to get negative feedback, you probably shoudn't post about something controversial like this. Make a daily shtpost how stupid people sound when they want nerfs or buffs to weapons. That's what I do I invite you to come to this thread I made in response to yours, which I will be aptly bumping. Cheers. I was hoping it wouldn't come to this.
Midas Fool Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 156	Posted - 2013.08.17 01:50:00 - [59] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: I'm a 22 Mil SP, 600 Mil ISK, Top 50 Killboard, Top 20 WP Board, Tanker Main w/ Minmatar Logi Sub who dabbled in Caldari Logi OP TAC AR Hacked EXO FOTM for ***** 'n giggles (All on just this Character). You obviously did not learn reading/comprehension if you are making these utterly ignorant assertions. You even further validate my point in your final "paragraph". You must also be new to DUST 514 if you did not know these facts and are now entitled to a Respec. You provided nothing valid to this discussion and have thusly been deemed Irrelevant I just love this one so much. Sounds like one of those "navy seal" copypastas. By the way I think my K/D is like 0.7. I've been playing this game since closed beta, too. I usually go positive in pubs but my K/D drops when I decide to start going into something different than what I'm used to.
ROADKILLURAZZ MURDER TAXI COMPANY 74	Posted - 2013.08.17 02:26:00 - [60] - Quote All I read was blah blah blahhhhhhhh Who in the fk wants to read all that garbage? Heres your respec.........Get the fk out of here!

Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 212	Posted - 2013.08.17 03:18:00 - [61] - Quote Thor McStrut wrote: THE GREY CARDINAL wrote: Knocking on 20 mill SP here and so I think I could be classified as a vet. Here's a pearl of wisdom that has been finely refined over the course of my merc career: spec into what you want to play, not FotM. Seriously...if people did this you wouldn't need respecs. I'm full on proto gallente logibro with every single skill under DS core upgrades maxed, now I'm moving on to vehicle core upgrades and will be a gallente LLAV and LDS pilot (the power of OCD compells me to train whatever has 'logistics'on it). I have ALL of my SP 100% exactly where I want it, and I know exactly where the next 6 months of SP is going (literally, I have the list of skills ordered by priority :P). I love my merc and have no insecurity over my SP allocation. You guys aren't getting respecs...you need to let go of this dead horse and just smarten up. While the OP has written a fine post, one that I could almost get behind, ^^ this man has returned me to my senses. Great reply Cardinal. So simply because the "Medium Dropsuit Crew", whom were graced with 2 RESPEC OPPORTUNITIES to fit into their NEWFOUND OPTIONS, are content with their "Choices.....the rest can go FK themselves??? And THIS is what sways you??? So you take a completely rational/logical presentation and toss it aside simply b/c a SELFISH DK brings back the "HTFU" Trope??? You are the worst kind of "Swing Voter".....I await the day Neo **** gets voted into US Presidency for simply saying "C'mon" like FKING Peter Griffin......
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 212	Posted - 2013.08.17 03:27:00 - [62] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: Ninjanomyx wrote: At the very least you get a 4/10 for Trolling & an A for "Effort". Your lack of constructive criticism & relevant feedback has thusly labeled your input as void in regards to this discussion. Thanx for trying nonetheless, KthxBAI Ninjanomyx wrote: Your blatantly obvious non-constructive, troll post, full of Irrelevance has been duly noted & accounted for Ninjanomyx wrote: Thank you for not contributing to this discussion, your feedback is not welcome. Wow...some big words there for a 13 year old. How dare I not agree with you. If I offer a dissenting opinion then my feedback is not welcome. Everyone who agrees with you however gets a gold star. I can see why you're so convincing. You should get into politics. I did Talking down to people is a good tactic, especially on the internet where nobody can smack you for it. However, it loses its power when used over and over, especially when out of place. You asked for these people's feedback on your proposal, and they gave it. SURPRISE! Not everyone wants to lose their hard work so you can spec FoTM. If you don't want to get negative feedback, you probably shoudn't post about something controversial like this. Make a daily shtpost how stupid people sound when they want nerfs or buffs to weapons. That's what I do I invite you to come to this thread I made in response to yours, which I will be aptly bumping. Cheers. I was hoping it wouldn't come to this. Hardly 13 kid.....& I have shown the capacity to both accept & understand, even compromise with differing point of view. Those were well-delivered, effortfully thought out, constructive presentations. On the other hand.....there's YOU....an ignoramus who makes no effort to provide any form of considerable reasoning behind your position on the subject at hand. You are a Trollworthy peon with the discussive capacity of an infant and the argumentative capacity of a "Redneck".... Go back under the bridge you Irrelevant Poster
Gallente Mercenary 08551380 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2013.08.17 04:29:00 - [63] - Quote [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/L0eMRSQ.jpg[/IMG]
low genius the sound of freedom Renegade Alliance 306	Posted - 2013.08.17 04:30:00 - [64] - Quote respecs can only exacerbate the problems, and waste more time in development. no respecs. ever.
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 213	Posted - 2013.08.17 04:34:00 - [65] - Quote low genius wrote: respecs can only exacerbate the problems, and waste more time in development. no respecs. ever. Please elaborate/explain, otherwise this is just another null and rather uninformed statement of opinion.....
XxWarlordxX97 187. 4451	Posted - 2013.08.17 04:35:00 - [66] - Quote I need a Respec please
Midas Fool Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 160	Posted - 2013.08.17 04:42:00 - [67] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: Hardly 13 kid.....& I have shown the capacity to both accept & understand, even compromise with differing point of view. Those were well-delivered, effortfully thought out, constructive presentations. On the other hand.....there's YOU....an ignoramus who makes no effort to provide any form of considerable reasoning behind your position on the subject at hand. You are a Trollworthy peon with the discussive capacity of an infant and the argumentative capacity of a "Redneck".... Go back under the bridge you Irrelevant Poster Good to know I won this one. Thanks for your time.
Midas Fool Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 160	Posted - 2013.08.17 04:51:00 - [68] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: So simply because the "Medium Dropsuit Crew", whom were graced with 2 RESPEC OPPORTUNITIES to fit into their NEWFOUND OPTIONS, are content with their "Choices.....the rest can go FK themselves??? And THIS is what sways you??? So you take a completely rational/logical presentation and toss it aside simply b/c a SELFISH DK brings back the "HTFU" Trope??? You are the worst kind of "Swing Voter".....I await the day Neo **** gets voted into US Presidency for simply saying "C'mon" like FKING Peter Griffin...... Oh OK so I was right all along you were trolling. Unless you're serious about calling someone you failed to convince a "swing voter". Disagreeing with you on a video game forum is apparently indicative of how they would vote in US presidency elections. That would make this twice as funny.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 63	Posted - 2013.08.17 05:20:00 - [69] - Quote Well OP, you started out with one of the stronger arguments for respecs, though that's a low bar to clear considering most of them are of the "WTF?! WIN BUTON NO WORK!1!! MOAR RESPECTS!!!!1!!!11!!" variety. However, as more and more people disagree with you, admittedly many with pretty poor counter-arguments, you have degenerated into more standard you disagree with me, your argument is invalid/petty insult territory. sigh Despite this I'll take a stab at a coherent counter-argument anyway. Not sure why I need to do this for the 4th or 5th time, this topic is well past being tired, but whatever. Some background: I'm at about 10 mil SP. I did not go into any FOTM's but would totally benefit from a respec because I spent some of my early SP unwisely. For that reason I totally support a respec at some low SP number, I guess 5 million as someone else proposed is fine, I guess you could really pick any number in that range and it would be OK. I also think at least a partial respec is due when the pilot or other racial variants of suits come out or other similar major changes to the skill tree are made. If someone proposes an aurum respec every year, I'm not all for it but I guess I could be talked into it. I can't remember who it was, but I completely agree with the person who said they just felt like Dust shouldn't be that way. It's not so much a HTFU kind of thing, it just feels incongruous with the whole vibe of the game. So, on to your original 3 steps: #1: You don't give much argument in favor of this in the initial post, which is good because it's ludicrous. You do mention that it "may" be true that you will get more FOTM, but those people are hurting only themselves. First off, it's "will", not "may". I take serious issue with the suggestion that those people are only hurting themselves. How is that, exactly? They get an OP weapon to wipe everyone out and rack up kills and WP. Oh, right, they hurt themselves because when the weapon gets nerfed they have wasted all that time and SP and will have to go into another..... Oh wait, no they don't because all they have to do is wait a month and they get to respec and put all those SP into the new FOTM and do it all over again! How is this hurting the FOTM chaser, exactly? #2: Your example makes sense but honestly would not be the majority of battles by a longshot. There just aren't that many people running in cohesive squads while also using a wide variety of equipment. Also, the whole reason things are considered OP FOTM is because there is no obvious counter to them in the majority of situations. That said, I already support a respec when major changes are made so no big deal here. #3 seems a little redundant, if you offer respecs at a certain (i.e., 5 mil SP) level it obviates your proposal. Still on the fence about annual respecs but definitely don't think they should be free and bankable. In all seriousness, call it a cliche if you want, but I just think that choices should matter. In instances like heavy suits, where we are being forced to make a false choice, sure, that deserves a respec to compensate. But otherwise, I don't think they are a good idea.
Heimdallr69 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 583	Posted - 2013.08.17 05:24:00 - [70] - Quote THE GREY CARDINAL wrote: Knocking on 20 mill SP here and so I think I could be classified as a vet. Here's a pearl of wisdom that has been finely refined over the course of my merc career: spec into what you want to play, not FotM. Seriously...if people did this you wouldn't need respecs. I'm full on proto gallente logibro with every single skill under DS core upgrades maxed, now I'm moving on to vehicle core upgrades and will be a gallente LLAV and LDS pilot (the power of OCD compells me to train whatever has 'logistics'on it). I have ALL of my SP 100% exactly where I want it, and I know exactly where the next 6 months of SP is going (literally, I have the list of skills ordered by priority :P). I love my merc and have no insecurity over my SP allocation. You guys aren't getting respecs...you need to let go of this dead horse and just smarten up. Guess what bro I like ascr but with the armour buff coming I'd be stupid to still use it over an ar..I'm at 13m sp and I'd like my 1m sp I put into scrambler back and don't say its fotm I skilled into it the first day it came out

Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 218	Posted - 2013.08.17 08:38:00 - [71] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Well OP, you started out with one of the stronger arguments for respecs, though that's a low bar to clear considering most of them are of the "WTF?! WIN BUTON NO WORK!1!! MOAR RESPECTS!!!!1!!!11!!" variety. However, as more and more people disagree with you, admittedly many with pretty poor counter-arguments, you have degenerated into more standard you disagree with me, your argument is invalid/petty insult territory. sigh Despite this I'll take a stab at a coherent counter-argument anyway. Not sure why I need to do this for the 4th or 5th time, this topic is well past being tired, but whatever. Some background: I'm at about 10 mil SP. I did not go into any FOTM's but would totally benefit from a respec because I spent some of my early SP unwisely. For that reason I totally support a respec at some low SP number, I guess 5 million as someone else proposed is fine, I guess you could really pick any number in that range and it would be OK. I also think at least a partial respec is due when the pilot or other racial variants of suits come out or other similar major changes to the skill tree are made. If someone proposes an aurum respec every year, I'm not all for it but I guess I could be talked into it. I can't remember who it was, but I completely agree with the person who said they just felt like Dust shouldn't be that way. It's not so much a HTFU kind of thing, it just feels incongruous with the whole vibe of the game. So, on to your original 3 steps: #1: You don't give much argument in favor of this in the initial post, which is good because it's ludicrous. You do mention that it "may" be true that you will get more FOTM, but those people are hurting only themselves. First off, it's "will", not "may". I take serious issue with the suggestion that those people are only hurting themselves. How is that, exactly? They get an OP weapon to wipe everyone out and rack up kills and WP. Oh, right, they hurt themselves because when the weapon gets nerfed they have wasted all that time and SP and will have to go into another..... Oh wait, no they don't because all they have to do is wait a month and they get to respec and put all those SP into the new FOTM and do it all over again! How is this hurting the FOTM chaser, exactly? #2: Your example makes sense but honestly would not be the majority of battles by a longshot. There just aren't that many people running in cohesive squads while also using a wide variety of equipment. Also, the whole reason things are considered OP FOTM is because there is no obvious counter to them in the majority of situations. That said, I already support a respec when major changes are made so no big deal here. #3 seems a little redundant, if you offer respecs at a certain (i.e., 5 mil SP) level it obviates your proposal. Still on the fence about annual respecs but definitely don't think they should be free and bankable. In all seriousness, call it a cliche if you want, but I just think that choices should matter. In instances like heavy suits, where we are being forced to make a false choice, sure, that deserves a respec to compensate. But otherwise, I don't think they are a good idea. FINALLY, the winner of the Golden Cookie goes to this guy right here You actually read/comprehended, dissected, and even responded with validity & clarity. The seeming "Devolution" is intended to incite a response with more depth.....which sadly most did not. Those that did were duly noted & accounted for. What I did take note of is that the vast majority of the "Con" side of the discussion brought very little.....if nothing at all to the table of the discussion, aside from noting their obvious bias without substance to give their statements/arguments any weight. The 3 instances where I displayed significant negativity were as follows: 1. Midas Fool - As he has the vast majority of post responses it has skewed the display, thus making it seem as if I responded negativity on a consistent basis. This was a case of "Trolling the Troll", as I oddly have fun watching them "Try" while simultaneously pointing them out and keeping them engaged. After all.....there's always at least 1 of these. And as we all know, a discussion ain't a discussion without a Troll 2. Thor McStrut - Considering all that was stated, and how he was "Seemingly" swayed (It seems as if this was premeditated for "Effect".....) to the side of someone (THE GRAY CARDINAL) who displayed.....and flaunted/taunted his unfair & obvious biased ("I got mine, too bad for you") attitude, the retort felt justified. 3. Iron Wolf Sabre - Do I even need to explain this??? In regards to your responses to my Steps I pretty much understand and mostly agree with what you stated. The "FOTM Chaser" not hurting anyone but themselves aspect was meant more for the final Step, as they would essentially be "Punished" for a maximum of 11 Months (Extreme circumstance example assuming the 1 Update per month schedule is still in effect) until the 1 Respec per year allotment goes through. Nonetheless, since this discussion seems to be winding down, here are what I hope to be an acceptable collective revision with the data gathered thus far ***Continued on next post***
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7386	Posted - 2013.08.17 09:17:00 - [72] - Quote Then why are so many respeccers so opposed to an untrainer boosters? That is something we can almost give away every month easily verses a full respec?
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 220	Posted - 2013.08.17 09:28:00 - [73] - Quote Proposal Revision 1.0: 1. Upon the 1.5 Update release, 1 Mass Respec (Be it Optional or Serverwide) should be provided. Only Lifetime SP and Skill Book ISK would be refunded. Patch Notes & ingame News Ticker/Info Tab upon login should note to players that specialization in each Type (IE: Light/Medium/Heavy Dropsuit & LAV/HAV/Dropship) are finalized, and those who did not yet receive a Racial Variant will receive a Partial SP Refund when the content becomes available. Considering this is to be a major Vehicle & other content Update (Hopefully Vehicle Racial Variants & Pilot Dropsuit included), it would clear the slate for the following functions. Side Note: SP Sinkholes should be locked. If Level 4 & 5 still have no Unlock/Bonus associated with them by now.....then you should not be able to allocate SP past the Level where Unlocks are attained. If not possible in 1.5 then hopefully by 1.6. 2. Hopefully by this point we may have revised Battle Academy. Upon exiting Battle Academy a player should be allotted 1 SP Respec within 30 Days. An onscreen notification/reminder would pop-up, informing the player of time remaining before the Respec expiration date, making sure to note it as a 1 time only availability. This should give the player ample time to research forums, form bonds, ask questions of Adepts & Vets, gather data, and maybe even join a Corporation. This would disable the "Punishment Factor" for the new player without diminishing the value of the traditional MMO experience. 3. Partial SP Refund as each Racial Variant is released. At this point it would only apply to those who specialized in the specific Type being provided Racial Variants at the time. This would obviously have no effect on the Medium Frame Dropsuits as they already have their Racial Variants available. Should the Pilot Suit receive no Racial Variants as of 1.5 they would receive their Partial SP Refund along with the Light Dropsuit releases. The same applies to Heavy & Commando Dropsuits respectively. 4. Upon the alteration of the Skill Tree (IE: SP Sinkholes remedied, SP Value changes, Unlock alterations & Bonus applications) there should be a Partial SP Refund to the affected Skills. I believe this set of proposals to be the most median/acceptable compromize between the feedbacks that were provided. Within the next day or 2, should this format be generally acceptable to the majority of subsequent posters, I will edit the opening post to reflect these alterations so as to generate feedback on the new proposal format. This is a combined effort and I thank those of you who provided valuable feedback for your time & consideration. Your feedback was well received
Midas Fool Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 163	Posted - 2013.08.17 09:30:00 - [74] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: 1. Midas Fool - As he has the vast majority of post responses it has skewed the display, thus making it seem as if I responded negativity on a consistent basis. This was a case of "Trolling the Troll", as I oddly have fun watching them "Try" while simultaneously pointing them out and keeping them engaged. After all.....there's always at least 1 of these. And as we all know, a discussion ain't a discussion without a Troll Meh I really wasn't trolling. I was completely serious...and my arguement was essentially the same as the last post, albeit John Demonsbane was able to sum his up quite a bit better. And you weren't being "negative". You were showing everyone that you truly could not be rational. As I pointed out, everyone who agreed with you in the slightest you gave a pat on the ass, and everyone who disagreed you insulted and rejected their feedback. Still after your post has been buried, you refuse to acknowledge that your ideas were possibly rejectable and the best you can do is insult again. In fact you do this in every single post you reply to. If you disagree you just insult them and call them trolls. And if anything this thread gave me a chuckle or two and something to these last couple days. I did that all 100% straight faced. I only respond because this does kind of push my buttons. I don't like being called a troll for being lighthearted. I'm glad that this last response helped you calm down and try your best to save yourself.
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 221	Posted - 2013.08.17 09:46:00 - [75] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Then why are so many respeccers so opposed to an untrainer boosters? That is something we can almost give away every month easily verses a full respec? B/C it is.....counterproductive??? If someone is to pay for something it would be to progress, not regress or stay static until said "Booster" wears off. I read that proposal.....(In its initial phase before it was dropped), and to halt Passive SP Gain to untrain a single Skill over time (How do you account for per Level drain over time???) when you could rather productively potentially double the initial Passive SP Gain (Passive Omega Booster) is completely undesireable. It is so undesireable that it is essentially "Pay-to-Lose"..... Anyone willing to subject themselves to this is a total masochisc and/or utterly ignorant.
Midas Fool Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 163	Posted - 2013.08.17 09:48:00 - [76] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: Proposal Revision 1.0: 1. Upon the 1.5 Update release, 1 Mass Respec (Be it Optional or Serverwide) should be provided. Only Lifetime SP and Skill Book ISK would be refunded. Patch Notes & ingame News Ticker/Info Tab upon login should note to players that specialization in each Type (IE: Light/Medium/Heavy Dropsuit & LAV/HAV/Dropship) are finalized, and those who did not yet receive a Racial Variant will receive a Partial SP Refund when the content becomes available. Considering this is to be a major Vehicle & other content Update (Hopefully Vehicle Racial Variants & Pilot Dropsuit included), it would clear the slate for the following functions. Side Note: SP Sinkholes should be locked. If Level 4 & 5 still have no Unlock/Bonus associated with them by now.....then you should not be able to allocate SP past the Level where Unlocks are attained. If not possible in 1.5 then hopefully by 1.6. 2. Hopefully by this point we may have revised Battle Academy. Upon exiting Battle Academy a player should be allotted 1 SP Respec within 30 Days. An onscreen notification/reminder would pop-up, informing the player of time remaining before the Respec expiration date, making sure to note it as a 1 time only availability. This should give the player ample time to research forums, form bonds, ask questions of Adepts & Vets, gather data, and maybe even join a Corporation. This would disable the "Punishment Factor" for the new player without diminishing the value of the traditional MMO experience. 3. Partial SP Refund as each Racial Variant is released. At this point it would only apply to those who specialized in the specific Type being provided Racial Variants at the time. This would obviously have no effect on the Medium Frame Dropsuits as they already have their Racial Variants available. Should the Pilot Suit receive no Racial Variants as of 1.5 they would receive their Partial SP Refund along with the Light Dropsuit releases. The same applies to Heavy & Commando Dropsuits respectively. 4. Upon the alteration of the Skill Tree (IE: SP Sinkholes remedied, SP Value changes, Unlock alterations & Bonus applications) there should be a Partial SP Refund to the affected Skills. I believe this set of proposals to be the most median/acceptable compromize between the feedbacks that were provided. Within the next day or 2, should this format be generally acceptable to the majority of subsequent posters, I will edit the opening post to reflect these alterations so as to generate feedback on the new proposal format. This is a combined effort and I thank those of you who provided valuable feedback for your time & consideration. Your feedback was well received Oh very cool. I like this one a LOT better. 1. Nah. CCP announced it a few weeks ago, and people have a few months to prepare. But debatable. 2. Sure. I support empowering new players. Vets not so much (thats trolling lelele ) 3. Eh...debatable. But I learned my lesson with you. I'd say it comes down to when CCP announces these things. 4. Sure in this situation you're absolutely entitled to a refund, but not a respec. So 2.5/4 of this one and 1/3 of your original. That was my two cents. You asked for 'em, and you got 'em. I'd say we all learned something from this awful thread. Now call me a troll again. Just know that that imp tag makes you really hard to take seriously.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7387	Posted - 2013.08.17 10:04:00 - [77] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: Proposal Revision 1.0: 1. Upon the 1.5 Update release, 1 Mass Respec (Be it Optional or Serverwide) should be provided. Only Lifetime SP and Skill Book ISK would be refunded. Patch Notes & ingame News Ticker/Info Tab upon login should note to players that specialization in each Type (IE: Light/Medium/Heavy Dropsuit & LAV/HAV/Dropship) are finalized, and those who did not yet receive a Racial Variant will receive a Partial SP Refund when the content becomes available. Considering this is to be a major Vehicle & other content Update (Hopefully Vehicle Racial Variants & Pilot Dropsuit included), it would clear the slate for the following functions. Side Note: SP Sinkholes should be locked. If Level 4 & 5 still have no Unlock/Bonus associated with them by now.....then you should not be able to allocate SP past the Level where Unlocks are attained. If not possible in 1.5 then hopefully by 1.6. 2. Hopefully by this point we may have revised Battle Academy. Upon exiting Battle Academy a player should be allotted 1 SP Respec within 30 Days. An onscreen notification/reminder would pop-up, informing the player of time remaining before the Respec expiration date, making sure to note it as a 1 time only availability. This should give the player ample time to research forums, form bonds, ask questions of Adepts & Vets, gather data, and maybe even join a Corporation. This would disable the "Punishment Factor" for the new player without diminishing the value of the traditional MMO experience. 3. Partial SP Refund as each Racial Variant is released. At this point it would only apply to those who specialized in the specific Type being provided Racial Variants at the time. This would obviously have no effect on the Medium Frame Dropsuits as they already have their Racial Variants available. Should the Pilot Suit receive no Racial Variants as of 1.5 they would receive their Partial SP Refund along with the Light Dropsuit releases. The same applies to Heavy & Commando Dropsuits respectively. 4. Upon the alteration of the Skill Tree (IE: SP Sinkholes remedied, SP Value changes, Unlock alterations & Bonus applications) there should be a Partial SP Refund to the affected Skills. I believe this set of proposals to be the most median/acceptable compromize between the feedbacks that were provided. Within the next day or 2, should this format be generally acceptable to the majority of subsequent posters, I will edit the opening post to reflect these alterations so as to generate feedback on the new proposal format. This is a combined effort and I thank those of you who provided valuable feedback for your time & consideration. Your feedback was well received +1
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7387	Posted - 2013.08.17 10:10:00 - [78] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Then why are so many respeccers so opposed to an untrainer boosters? That is something we can almost give away every month easily verses a full respec? B/C it is.....counterproductive??? If someone is to pay for something it would be to progress, not regress or stay static until said "Booster" wears off. I read that proposal.....(In its initial phase before it was dropped), and to halt Passive SP Gain to untrain a single Skill over time (How do you account for per Level drain over time???) when you could rather productively potentially double the initial Passive SP Gain (Passive Omega Booster) is completely undesireable. It is so undesireable that it is essentially "Pay-to-Lose"..... Anyone willing to subject themselves to this is a total masochisc and/or utterly ignorant. There are more than one proposals out for that booster though. Should take a third slot instead and be effective for one whole skill level unlike traditional boosters, each booster has a 'sp limit' instead so they would be tiered off into various multipliers and skill levels. Selecting the skill for un-training in the skill window only brings up the purchase of the one to do the job completely. overall IMO all booster prices need to be cut down by anywhere from 1/2 of current to 1/4th Untrainer boosters being the absolute cheapest of them. Third slot should also allow for 'spike' boosters that increase the SP spent into a category and also has an SP limit and should not be aurum purchasable but droppable from EOM instead. Or alternatively an active booster that's based on skill points alone. Hell while we are at it lets throw in more weaker boosters that drop from battle as well like a 12hr passive booster or a salvaged active booster that only gives 1.25 instead of 1.5 bonus. .
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 222	Posted - 2013.08.17 10:16:00 - [79] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: Ninjanomyx wrote: 1. Midas Fool - As he has the vast majority of post responses it has skewed the display, thus making it seem as if I responded negativity on a consistent basis. This was a case of "Trolling the Troll", as I oddly have fun watching them "Try" while simultaneously pointing them out and keeping them engaged. After all.....there's always at least 1 of these. And as we all know, a discussion ain't a discussion without a Troll Meh I really wasn't trolling. I was completely serious...and my arguement was essentially the same as the last post, albeit John Demonsbane was able to sum his up quite a bit better. And you weren't being "negative". You were showing everyone that you truly could not be rational. As I pointed out, everyone who agreed with you in the slightest you gave a pat on the ass, and everyone who disagreed you insulted and rejected their feedback. Still after your post has been buried, you refuse to acknowledge that your ideas were possibly rejectable and the best you can do is insult again. In fact you do this in every single post you reply to. If you disagree you just insult them and call them trolls. And if anything this thread gave me a chuckle or two and something to these last couple days. I did that all 100% straight faced. I only respond because this does kind of push my buttons. I don't like being called a troll for being lighthearted. I'm glad that this last response helped you calm down and try your best to save yourself. LOL @ Troll trying to take the "Moral High Ground" Anyone can see your 1st post in here and, with even a little common sense, realize you are a Troll from the getgo. Since I'm on a PS3 using a DS3 I am unable to copy-pasta multi-quote with ease so..... Page 1 - Post #16 You made ignorant assertions on behalf of CCP like a typical "Fanboy/Lapdog". You made disrespectful assumptions (All of which were indefinitely incorrect) in regards to my SP Allocation choices. And then try to impose completey irrelevant & unsatisfactory "Advice" by telling me to "Just play a few matches. Damn. Protostomp if you must." So we have an Assertion, an Assumption, and an Imposition.....all in your first reply, without prior provocation nor substantial data to back up your "Claims"...... I was fully aware of these conditions when we began our little "Dance". I had a great bit of fun poking at your obviously flawed "Logic", and our interactions were both intriguing & delightful to me. I'm sorry that I "Pushed your Buttons".....I guess that is the result of successfully "Trolling the Troll". I WIN, you're welcome
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 223	Posted - 2013.08.17 10:35:00 - [80] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: Ninjanomyx wrote: Proposal Revision 1.0: 1. Upon the 1.5 Update release, 1 Mass Respec (Be it Optional or Serverwide) should be provided. Only Lifetime SP and Skill Book ISK would be refunded. Patch Notes & ingame News Ticker/Info Tab upon login should note to players that specialization in each Type (IE: Light/Medium/Heavy Dropsuit & LAV/HAV/Dropship) are finalized, and those who did not yet receive a Racial Variant will receive a Partial SP Refund when the content becomes available. Considering this is to be a major Vehicle & other content Update (Hopefully Vehicle Racial Variants & Pilot Dropsuit included), it would clear the slate for the following functions. Side Note: SP Sinkholes should be locked. If Level 4 & 5 still have no Unlock/Bonus associated with them by now.....then you should not be able to allocate SP past the Level where Unlocks are attained. If not possible in 1.5 then hopefully by 1.6. 2. Hopefully by this point we may have revised Battle Academy. Upon exiting Battle Academy a player should be allotted 1 SP Respec within 30 Days. An onscreen notification/reminder would pop-up, informing the player of time remaining before the Respec expiration date, making sure to note it as a 1 time only availability. This should give the player ample time to research forums, form bonds, ask questions of Adepts & Vets, gather data, and maybe even join a Corporation. This would disable the "Punishment Factor" for the new player without diminishing the value of the traditional MMO experience. 3. Partial SP Refund as each Racial Variant is released. At this point it would only apply to those who specialized in the specific Type being provided Racial Variants at the time. This would obviously have no effect on the Medium Frame Dropsuits as they already have their Racial Variants available. Should the Pilot Suit receive no Racial Variants as of 1.5 they would receive their Partial SP Refund along with the Light Dropsuit releases. The same applies to Heavy & Commando Dropsuits respectively. 4. Upon the alteration of the Skill Tree (IE: SP Sinkholes remedied, SP Value changes, Unlock alterations & Bonus applications) there should be a Partial SP Refund to the affected Skills. I believe this set of proposals to be the most median/acceptable compromize between the feedbacks that were provided. Within the next day or 2, should this format be generally acceptable to the majority of subsequent posters, I will edit the opening post to reflect these alterations so as to generate feedback on the new proposal format. This is a combined effort and I thank those of you who provided valuable feedback for your time & consideration. Your feedback was well received Oh very cool. I like this one a LOT better. 1. Nah. CCP announced it a few weeks ago, and people have a few months to prepare. But debatable. 2. Sure. I support empowering new players. Vets not so much (thats trolling lelele ) 3. Eh...debatable. But I learned my lesson with you. I'd say it comes down to when CCP announces these things. 4. Sure in this situation you're absolutely entitled to a refund, but not a respec. So 2.5/4 of this one and 1/3 of your original. That was my two cents. You asked for 'em, and you got 'em. I'd say we all learned something from this awful thread. Now call me a troll again. Just know that that imp tag makes you really hard to take seriously. I take each and every individual on a case-by-case basis. I give what I receive, be it respect or disrespect. I am unable to be "Complacent". You judged me just now based on a Corp Tag comprised of Pixels on a Video Game. That is the equivalent of Racism as you displayed generalized biases..... You have more issues that you may need to work out than we both initially realized.....

Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 225	Posted - 2013.08.17 10:43:00 - [81] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Ninjanomyx wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Then why are so many respeccers so opposed to an untrainer boosters? That is something we can almost give away every month easily verses a full respec? B/C it is.....counterproductive??? If someone is to pay for something it would be to progress, not regress or stay static until said "Booster" wears off. I read that proposal.....(In its initial phase before it was dropped), and to halt Passive SP Gain to untrain a single Skill over time (How do you account for per Level drain over time???) when you could rather productively potentially double the initial Passive SP Gain (Passive Omega Booster) is completely undesireable. It is so undesireable that it is essentially "Pay-to-Lose"..... Anyone willing to subject themselves to this is a total masochisc and/or utterly ignorant. There are more than one proposals out for that booster though. Should take a third slot instead and be effective for one whole skill level unlike traditional boosters, each booster has a 'sp limit' instead so they would be tiered off into various multipliers and skill levels. Selecting the skill for un-training in the skill window only brings up the purchase of the one to do the job completely. overall IMO all booster prices need to be cut down by anywhere from 1/2 of current to 1/4th Untrainer boosters being the absolute cheapest of them. Third slot should also allow for 'spike' boosters that increase the SP spent into a category and also has an SP limit and should not be aurum purchasable but droppable from EOM instead. Or alternatively an active booster that's based on skill points alone. Hell while we are at it lets throw in more weaker boosters that drop from battle as well like a 12hr passive booster or a salvaged active booster that only gives 1.25 instead of 1.5 bonus. . I see.... Well considering the "Pay-to-Win" aspect, that option may not go over well (Considering the resistance SP Respecs/Refunds are currently getting from a select group). We'll see how the ball rolls along..... Nontheless I 100% agree that Boosters should cost significantly less considering the current pricing model is more expensive than even a Subscription Model MMORPG.....and that's based off of Boosters alone
Midas Fool Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 163	Posted - 2013.08.17 10:46:00 - [82] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: "I don't think this game is good enough yet" is a false dilemma. CCP doesn't have to be apologetic, not even to you. I'm OK with a respec a year, but it absolutely must cost Aurum. It would be like an optional subscription fee and everyone who doesn't have the patience to save up SP could at least put some money into this project. Plus, like you pointed out it would punish everyone who went FoTM in a month's time. Also it would be similar enough to Eve's attribute system. I don't understand how you have 22 mil SP and haven't figured out what you like. It sounds to me like you just want to train something to 5 RIGHT NOW, just like all the scrubs do. That is perfectly understandable, even I'll admit that grinding is a pain in the ass. However, it isn't exactly fair or noble. To someone like me with half your skill points that has invested them patiently, put in a lot of time in playing games, and spent a good amount of money in boosters, it really does take a huge amount of meaning out of this game. At your level you should know what kind of advantage you would gain. In fact I'm sure you do. Just play a few matches. Damn. Protostomp if you must. Because of your corp obligatory 10/10 if troll. Here you go. I don't really know why I still care...but I should explain myself. First sentence: you've created a false dilemma as the basis for your argument. My "two cents" response. Not trolling. Second sentence: Yeah, that's an ad hominem. My bad. Not a troll, though. Third and fourth sentences: I'm trying to see things your way. Not a troll. Fifth and sixth sentences: Why I don't see this your way/my argument. Not a troll. Seventh sentence: Ad hominem. My bad. Couldn't resist. Remember how I said talking down is powerful? Eighth sentence: My solution for you. Guess I should've been more specific (guess I should've coddled you). Last sentence: Yep. This ad hominem is intentional. You want to look like an ass hang out with some of them. I guess you did troll me. Congrats. You got me to dissect my own argument a hundred times and bump your post in the process. I didn't mind. I hope it brings attention to this so that CCP can tell us whether or not we're getting a respec. That way I can write stuff down so I put all my points back where they were and head out to fight some FoTMers. Sigh...moral high ground? For being straightforward? Remember when I accused you of "I'm just gonna say your argument is invalid and therefore it is"? You are very guilty of this. In fact, its kinda all you do. Doesn't work here, man. Or at least it shouldn't... Disagreeing with you doesn't qualify me for the title of "fanboy". Also "Claims" and "Logic" were amusing to me. 10/10. Maybe I should have included something along the lines of "whenever CCP decides to get around to it" to get a pat on the ass from you. Being edgy over a video game is just as bad as being a fanboy. Now that this petty insult fight is over with, what do you have against Ironwolf (or CPM 0 for that matter), anyway?
ALM1GHTY STATIUS Ancient Exiles 417	Posted - 2013.08.17 10:47:00 - [83] - Quote I love you and miss you ninja. Hmu on Skype or something. This post was great. I'd you don't have a Skype then get at me another way.<33 talk to you later honey boo boo chil'.
DeeJay One Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 81	Posted - 2013.08.17 10:47:00 - [84] - Quote Ah, this thread again. The whole "your decisions matter" was a selling point for me, but I acknowledge the need for some sort of respecs under certain conditons: respec after battle academy would be fine for me respec after major skill tree changes - like adding the missing suits/vehicles, but not after adding new types of vehicles or suits. These respecs could be limited by the branch (and will probably happen) respec with stacking penalties after that, say the first respecs cost you 5% SP, the second 10% of your SP, third 30% SP, fourth 50% SP (stacking would occur in a consecutive period say 1 year after the first respec)
RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 458	Posted - 2013.08.17 11:09:00 - [85] - Quote A respec will happen one day, I just don't think the circumstances will ever truly be in the hands of players. CCP will inevitably refresh the skill tree when new stuff comes in, perhaps lowering multipliers etc for certain skills, for which we will receive some kind of rebate.
Billi Gene Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 293	Posted - 2013.08.17 11:43:00 - [86] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: Billi Gene wrote: well reasoned, an utter lack of self interest as the basis for your arguments. bravo, mostly i'd just like there to be no respecs promised to punish any notion of FoTM, I can see that now. danke. I'm confused at this response..... May you please be so kind as to rephrase your response and position on the matter at hand??? Your feedback would be greatly appreciated having spent the day playing EvE, and away from the forums, I would like to think that i am ready to add more. I am however a little tired, so I am going to attempt to hold back from any emotional precipices. Firstly, Ninja, you tend to be heavily critical of anyone that disagrees with you, if you want something discussed, that is not the way to go about it. As the OP you are the host. Your original post was a fresh coat of paint on what has become a never ending rehash of the same demand. As others have said of the original post, it is well written and reasoned, I felt that there was an optimism presented. This of course must be offset by your at times harsh critique of other members of the community. Back OT though: IMHO, DUST is not best served by frequent respecs. I feel that you almost agree on this point. The skill system in DUST is one of growth, a journey from a fresh merc, through the forge of countless battles, towards an indistinct future as a warrior of many talents and strengths, although it is not an MMO, the DUST system, is entirely reminiscent of the Elder Scrolls. Allowing players to break this pattern of battle and growth, and instead Matrix style download entire skill sets creates an entirely different game. Adaptability is earnt in New Eden. Having said that, CCP may decide that a respec is needed to allow for changes to the Skill Tree. The biggest danger when looking at balance is always at the point where a respec is given. New suit options, new weapon options will be big draws, skewing incidental data. Over the longer haul it doesn't matter though, except that for slow SP gainers the original choices will last all the longer, and longer again the deeper they went into those skills. As is mentioned in this thread iirc(yes I am that tired), and elsewhere on these forums, lv5 (proto) is simply not needed in most circumstances, Advanced level (lvl3) gear appears to be the metric. Alleviating buyers remorse by instituting regular respecs creates a culture where choices no longer matter. You address this concern by advising that respecs should be parceled out on an annual basis. I must have it noted here though that just under a million SP is gained thru passive SP every month, so that around 9.6 million SP a year is about the minimum for a character on Passive gains. Played almost entirely not at all, at 5 games a week, a character would net about another million every year, if i am not mistaken. I bring these numbers up simply to say that an annual respec shouldn't be needed, if you look at a minimally played character as gaining a new role for every anum that they fairly much Didn't play. When i first read your OP, I felt very swayed towards the idea of a respec system, but I must say that having read the entire thread, there have been some good arguments against the idea of continuing respecs, enough that for myself, I feel that my original stance holds credence. At the end of the day, having played EvE for as little as i have, I have decided to trust CCP as a game developer. Whatever they decide to do with DUST, I am sure that it will have an internal logic and structure that fits with their vision of how New Eden works. Whether or not I continue to play either game depends on many factors, not the least of which is whether these games continue to entertain or captivate me. Should I find that I no longer wish to play either game, then I would most likely find that I have either already stopped playing it, or going by previous games, that I shall continue till i find another game to replace it, such is the games industry and developers know it. There are not many developers lucky enough to have hard core fans, and those that do could do worse than to encourage such behavior. Criticizing a portion of DUST's community because they also play EvE might get a few short sighted cheers, but of all the community, those most likely to stick around thru all the hard times earning more then passive SP, till the game is finally of such note as its elder sibling, will be those that share the belief that CCP has somewhat of a clue of what they are doing, and what they wish to achieve with this game. Not everything needs to be cookie cutter. I should probably get some sleep now, i think i am getting grumpy over nothing
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 227	Posted - 2013.08.17 11:45:00 - [87] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: Midas Fool wrote: "I don't think this game is good enough yet" is a false dilemma. CCP doesn't have to be apologetic, not even to you. I'm OK with a respec a year, but it absolutely must cost Aurum. It would be like an optional subscription fee and everyone who doesn't have the patience to save up SP could at least put some money into this project. Plus, like you pointed out it would punish everyone who went FoTM in a month's time. Also it would be similar enough to Eve's attribute system. I don't understand how you have 22 mil SP and haven't figured out what you like. It sounds to me like you just want to train something to 5 RIGHT NOW, just like all the scrubs do. That is perfectly understandable, even I'll admit that grinding is a pain in the ass. However, it isn't exactly fair or noble. To someone like me with half your skill points that has invested them patiently, put in a lot of time in playing games, and spent a good amount of money in boosters, it really does take a huge amount of meaning out of this game. At your level you should know what kind of advantage you would gain. In fact I'm sure you do. Just play a few matches. Damn. Protostomp if you must. Because of your corp obligatory 10/10 if troll. Here you go. I don't really know why I still care...but I should explain myself. First sentence: you've created a false dilemma as the basis for your argument. My "two cents" response. Not trolling. Second sentence: Yeah, that's an ad hominem. My bad. Not a troll, though. Third and fourth sentences: I'm trying to see things your way. Not a troll. Fifth and sixth sentences: Why I don't see this your way/my argument. Not a troll. Seventh sentence: Ad hominem. My bad. Couldn't resist. Remember how I said talking down is powerful? Eighth sentence: My solution for you. Guess I should've been more specific (guess I should've coddled you). Last sentence: Yep. This ad hominem is intentional. You want to look like an ass hang out with some of them. I guess you did troll me. Congrats. You got me to dissect my own argument a hundred times and bump your post in the process. I didn't mind. I hope it brings attention to this so that CCP can tell us whether or not we're getting a respec. That way I can write stuff down so I put all my points back where they were and head out to fight some FoTMers. Sigh...moral high ground? For being straightforward? Remember when I accused you of "I'm just gonna say your argument is invalid and therefore it is"? You are very guilty of this. In fact, its kinda all you do. Doesn't work here, man. Or at least it shouldn't... Disagreeing with you doesn't qualify me for the title of "fanboy". Also "Claims" and "Logic" were amusing to me. 10/10. Maybe I should have included something along the lines of "whenever CCP decides to get around to it" to get a pat on the ass from you. Being edgy over a video game is just as bad as being a fanboy. Now that this petty insult fight is over with, what do you have against Ironwolf (or CPM 0 for that matter), anyway? Edit: Racism? You can't be serious. The "Racism" remark was to example the situation. I have a tendency to not go "OMG ARABIC BOMBER!!!" when I see any Habibi, Persian, etc. You judged me from a Tag, hence the example. And, should you care to backtrack, you would notice I only "Neg'd" those who came off abrasive, non-constructive, deconstructive, and/or counterproductive.....hence "Case-by-Case Basis". There were a few posters who did show obvious resistance, without the aforementioned "Negativity", and I gave them a "Gold Star". I suppose my initially intended "Counter-Trolling" was a tad too effective, as it seems you had only focused on the "Negative Backlash" as opposed to the "Big Picture, hence "Horse with Blinders" & "Tunnel Vision"..... As for the CPM0??? I have not much at all against them as a whole. As for IWS??? As you can see....when presented with logic & civility I deliver the same in return. He has (As far as most of the Posts/Suggestions I see from him.....), more often than not, presented terrible balancing proposals (Especially in regards to Vehicles.....), displayed a persistent lack of logic/coherence, made assertions and irrelevant statements (DCUO examples galore in this Topic for immediate reference.....), and is noted as a CCP "Apologist". I feel these are terrible qualities for a "Representative", as some one who is "Helping" to shape DUST 514, and as a Gamer under the "Public Eye". I consider him a "Hardcore Wannabee" Casual Gamer. I'm sure he may be a "Good" person overall.....but he often exudes an air of "DEE DEE DEE" & "HERP DERP" in the manner which he presents himself on a somewhat regular basis....
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 227	Posted - 2013.08.17 11:47:00 - [88] - Quote ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote: I love you and miss you ninja. Hmu on Skype or something. This post was great. I'd you don't have a Skype then get at me another way.<33 talk to you later honey boo boo chil'. I has no computer brah Buy 1 for me???
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 227	Posted - 2013.08.17 12:07:00 - [89] - Quote Billi Gene wrote: Ninjanomyx wrote: Billi Gene wrote: well reasoned, an utter lack of self interest as the basis for your arguments. bravo, mostly i'd just like there to be no respecs promised to punish any notion of FoTM, I can see that now. danke. I'm confused at this response..... May you please be so kind as to rephrase your response and position on the matter at hand??? Your feedback would be greatly appreciated having spent the day playing EvE, and away from the forums, I would like to think that i am ready to add more. I am however a little tired, so I am going to attempt to hold back from any emotional precipices. Firstly, Ninja, you tend to be heavily critical of anyone that disagrees with you, if you want something discussed, that is not the way to go about it. As the OP you are the host. Your original post was a fresh coat of paint on what has become a never ending rehash of the same demand. As others have said of the original post, it is well written and reasoned, I felt that there was an optimism presented. This of course must be offset by your at times harsh critique of other members of the community. Back OT though: IMHO, DUST is not best served by frequent respecs. I feel that you almost agree on this point. The skill system in DUST is one of growth, a journey from a fresh merc, through the forge of countless battles, towards an indistinct future as a warrior of many talents and strengths, although it is not an MMO, the DUST system, is entirely reminiscent of the Elder Scrolls. Allowing players to break this pattern of battle and growth, and instead Matrix style download entire skill sets creates an entirely different game. Adaptability is earnt in New Eden. Having said that, CCP may decide that a respec is needed to allow for changes to the Skill Tree. The biggest danger when looking at balance is always at the point where a respec is given. New suit options, new weapon options will be big draws, skewing incidental data. Over the longer haul it doesn't matter though, except that for slow SP gainers the original choices will last all the longer, and longer again the deeper they went into those skills. As is mentioned in this thread iirc(yes I am that tired), and elsewhere on these forums, lv5 (proto) is simply not needed in most circumstances, Advanced level (lvl3) gear appears to be the metric. Alleviating buyers remorse by instituting regular respecs creates a culture where choices no longer matter. You address this concern by advising that respecs should be parceled out on an annual basis. I must have it noted here though that just under a million SP is gained thru passive SP every month, so that around 9.6 million SP a year is about the minimum for a character on Passive gains. Played almost entirely not at all, at 5 games a week, a character would net about another million every year, if i am not mistaken. I bring these numbers up simply to say that an annual respec shouldn't be needed, if you look at a minimally played character as gaining a new role for every anum that they fairly much Didn't play. When i first read your OP, I felt very swayed towards the idea of a respec system, but I must say that having read the entire thread, there have been some good arguments against the idea of continuing respecs, enough that for myself, I feel that my original stance holds credence. At the end of the day, having played EvE for as little as i have, I have decided to trust CCP as a game developer. Whatever they decide to do with DUST, I am sure that it will have an internal logic and structure that fits with their vision of how New Eden works. Whether or not I continue to play either game depends on many factors, not the least of which is whether these games continue to entertain or captivate me. Should I find that I no longer wish to play either game, then I would most likely find that I have either already stopped playing it, or going by previous games, that I shall continue till i find another game to replace it, such is the games industry and developers know it. There are not many developers lucky enough to have hard core fans, and those that do could do worse than to encourage such behavior. Criticizing a portion of DUST's community because they also play EvE might get a few short sighted cheers, but of all the community, those most likely to stick around thru all the hard times earning more then passive SP, till the game is finally of such note as its elder sibling, will be those that share the belief that CCP has somewhat of a clue of what they are doing, and what they wish to achieve with this game. Not everything needs to be cookie cutter. I should probably get some sleep now, i think i am getting grumpy over nothing If you would be so kind as to review the possible revisions on: Page 4 - Post #73 I would very much appreciate your feedback. As for a better understanding as to why I responded as I did, to whom I did, it's pretty much displayed between Page 4 and on..... It's too much to rehash tbh, as I too am extremely lethargic at this time. I definitely appreciate your delivery/presentation, & I apologize for you having to see that side of me.....but I assure you it was not without reason. I'll get to editing my opening post when I awaken to update the status of the proposal, so as to avoid future confusion. Enjoy your slumber
Midas Fool Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 165	Posted - 2013.08.17 12:32:00 - [90] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: The "Racism" remark was to example the situation. I have a tendency to not go "OMG ARABIC BOMBER!!!" when I see any Habibi, Persian, etc. You judged me from a Tag, hence the example. And, should you care to backtrack, you would notice I only "Neg'd" those who came off abrasive, non-constructive, deconstructive, and/or counterproductive.....hence "Case-by-Case Basis". There were a few posters who did show obvious resistance, without the aforementioned "Negativity", and I gave them a "Gold Star". I suppose my initially intended "Counter-Trolling" was a tad too effective, as it seems you had only focused on the "Negative Backlash" as opposed to the "Big Picture, hence "Horse with Blinders" & "Tunnel Vision"..... As for the CPM0??? I have not much at all against them as a whole. As for IWS??? As you can see....when presented with logic & civility I deliver the same in return. He has (As far as most of the Posts/Suggestions I see from him.....), more often than not, presented terrible balancing proposals (Especially in regards to Vehicles.....), displayed a persistent lack of logic/coherence, made assertions and irrelevant statements (DCUO examples galore in this Topic for immediate reference.....), and is noted as a CCP "Apologist". I feel these are terrible qualities for a "Representative", as some one who is "Helping" to shape DUST 514, and as a Gamer under the "Public Eye". I consider him a "Hardcore Wannabee" Casual Gamer. I'm sure he may be a "Good" person overall.....but he often exudes an air of "DEE DEE DEE" & "HERP DERP" in the manner which he presents himself on a somewhat regular basis.... The judging you based on your corp is much more about the business politics part of the whole Eve/Dust game. I don't think that its appropriate at all to elevate it to Racism, especially Racism having to do the terrorism in the last decade...just like it isn't appropriate to equate planning the aloccation of SP in a video game to buying a crib that might kill an infant. YOU ARE AN IMP. Your alliance in both games is notorious for making them a generally miserable experience for anyone who isn't part of it. You knew that when you applied. The rest of the paragraph is irrelevant. I get it, you don't like it when people disagree with you. We're over this. Come on. Your standing your ground, good for you. Don't expect everyone to be "complacent". I already gave your refined ideas positive remarks. As for IWS, he got what he deserved for even bringing up DCUO. That's what happens when you pull examples out of your ass. I have nothing against IWS (in fact, I usually like his posting), but in light of the recent doomsay I just want to be well-informed of CPM politics, especially from someone I don't seem to agree with. What are his poorly proposed vehicle/balance changes? I'm not defending him, I seriously want to know a few examples. Also he might not represent you but perhaps another CPM member does. Besides it's not like you or I had anything to do with his election, so we aren't really entitled to decide whether he is representative or not. Disliking his personality is just nitpicking, especially if it's about his levity. I do agree that the CPM should really consider how they act, because they are the one thing that is truly unique about this game/company; they are being observed more than they know.

low genius the sound of freedom Renegade Alliance 307	Posted - 2013.08.17 14:30:00 - [91] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: low genius wrote: respecs can only exacerbate the problems, and waste more time in development. no respecs. ever. Please elaborate/explain, otherwise this is just another null and rather uninformed statement of opinion..... if respecs are to occur, then they create a greater gap between the new players and the old players. there isn't any situation where a new player will benefit from a respec, and there isn't any situation where ccp would benefit from a respec. if a respec happens today, then ccp will have to spend the next 6 weeks balancing whatever fotm gun everyone specs into, thus a waste of time. math does not support a respec helping in any way.
low genius the sound of freedom Renegade Alliance 307	Posted - 2013.08.17 14:31:00 - [92] - Quote RINON114 wrote: A respec will happen one day, I just don't think the circumstances will ever truly be in the hands of players. CCP will inevitably refresh the skill tree when new stuff comes in, perhaps lowering multipliers etc for certain skills, for which we will receive some kind of rebate. i think people have been saying that in eve for a decade...
Twomanchew Goose Bite 32	Posted - 2013.08.18 01:02:00 - [93] - Quote Bump 'P
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 237	Posted - 2013.08.19 23:22:00 - [94] - Quote Updated as of 8/19/2013
pamuku420tyme RedBerry Genocide 8	Posted - 2013.08.20 00:58:00 - [95] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: DCUO has paid Respecs so it is not unfathomable.....but I prefer not to advocate this route. Everyone claiming "This is EVE/New Eden HTFU!!!!!" are ignorant to the fact that this is soooooooooo far removed from that..... 1st & foremost it is an FPS, partially developed with MAG associates, & that had "Earned Respecs" over time/gameplay. DUST also lacks the substance to grant it MMO status. There is no meaningful interaction between DUST & EVE. The vast majority of the skill tree is ever-changing & vastly unfinished (SP Sinks where final 2 Levels offer no unlock/bonus). Promised launch content is missing. Core functions/mechanics are either not present or buggy. Player market is unavailable to even determine value of loot. There is almost no balance or player retension incentive. Marketplace items/statistics are still disgustingly flawed. And I won't even bother mentioning how vehicle functions are punished & unrewarding b/c I could write a dissertation on this subject alone..... Technically.....until the core mechanics, balancing foundation, PvE & other launch promised content, DUST-to-EVE & vice versa interactions, player market, vehicular function/protection, skill tree foundation to eliminate SP "Sand Traps", and even racial variants of current suits/vehicles (Including Pilot Dropsuit) are in place......we are still in BETA testing mode and it should be treated as such (Minus RESET as this would utterly kill player retension at this point.....) This all points to 1 fact.....this is not yet an MMOFPS, it is a BETA for a Lobby Shooter. Considering the above facts/factors I would like to propose this: Proposal Revision 1.0: 1. Upon the 1.5 Update release (Or ASAP after 1.5), 1 Mass Respec (Be it Optional or Serverwide) should be provided. Only Lifetime SP and Skill Book ISK would be refunded. Patch Notes & ingame News Ticker/Info Tab upon login should note to players that specialization in each Type (IE: Light/Medium/Heavy Dropsuit & LAV/HAV/Dropship) are finalized, and those who did not yet receive a Racial Variant will receive a Partial SP Refund when the content becomes available. Considering this is to be a major Vehicle & other content Update (Hopefully Vehicle Racial Variants & Pilot Dropsuit included), it would clear the slate for the following functions. Side Note: SP Sinkholes should be locked. If Level 4 & 5 still have no Unlock/Bonus associated with them by now.....then you should not be able to allocate SP past the Level where Unlocks are attained. If not possible in 1.5 then hopefully by 1.6. 2. Hopefully by this point we may have revised Battle Academy. Upon exiting Battle Academy a player should be allotted 1 SP Respec within 30 Days. An onscreen notification/reminder would pop-up, informing the player of time remaining before the Respec expiration date, making sure to note it as a 1 time only availability. This should give the player ample time to research forums, form bonds, ask questions of Adepts & Vets, gather data, and maybe even join a Corporation. This would disable the "Punishment Factor" for the new player without diminishing the value of the traditional MMO experience. 3. Partial SP Refund as each Racial Variant is released. At this point it would only apply to those who specialized in the specific Type being provided Racial Variants at the time. This would obviously have no effect on the Medium Frame Dropsuits as they already have their Racial Variants available. Should the Pilot Suit receive no Racial Variants as of 1.5 they would receive their Partial SP Refund along with the Light Dropsuit releases. The same applies to Heavy & Commando Dropsuits respectively. 4. Upon the alteration of the Skill Tree (IE: SP Sinkholes remedied, SP Value changes, Unlock alterations & Bonus applications) there should be a Partial SP Refund to the affected Skills. I believe this set of proposals to be the most median/acceptable compromize between the feedbacks that were provided. This is a combined effort and I thank those of you who provided valuable feedback for your time & consideration. Your feedback was well received AGREE!!! i do not use exploits or any glitch. but i have had 4 things nerfed after specing into them. plus the awsomeness of the commando suit. i would love to see a repec... needs to be one since people like crying about the game and they change the whole flow of the game why not just throw in a respec when a patch comes out. They can obviously put in notifications when we go to log in, like in mordus challange where we won stuff that we couldnt use.... anyways i think a respec is in great order!!!
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 913	Posted - 2013.08.20 01:06:00 - [96] - Quote THE GREY CARDINAL wrote: Knocking on 20 mill SP here and so I think I could be classified as a vet. Here's a pearl of wisdom that has been finely refined over the course of my merc career: spec into what you want to play, not FotM. Seriously...if people did this you wouldn't need respecs. I'm full on proto gallente logibro with every single skill under DS core upgrades maxed, now I'm moving on to vehicle core upgrades and will be a gallente LLAV and LDS pilot (the power of OCD compells me to train whatever has 'logistics'on it). I have ALL of my SP 100% exactly where I want it, and I know exactly where the next 6 months of SP is going (literally, I have the list of skills ordered by priority :P). I love my merc and have no insecurity over my SP allocation. You guys aren't getting respecs...you need to let go of this dead horse and just smarten up. I'll bet you 50 mil ISK there's a respec. But I'm guessing its out of desperation when the numbers dip down to a critical level.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 913	Posted - 2013.08.20 01:12:00 - [97] - Quote low genius wrote: RINON114 wrote: A respec will happen one day, I just don't think the circumstances will ever truly be in the hands of players. CCP will inevitably refresh the skill tree when new stuff comes in, perhaps lowering multipliers etc for certain skills, for which we will receive some kind of rebate. i think people have been saying that in eve for a decade... CCP doesn't even have 10 months to change its mentality for Dust let alone 10 years.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5799	Posted - 2013.08.20 01:22:00 - [98] - Quote low genius wrote: if a respec happens today, then ccp will have to spend the next 6 weeks balancing whatever fotm gun everyone specs into, thus a waste of time. Just because fewer people are using something seen as "OP" doesn't make it any less of a problem. A re specialization system would go a LONG way towards identifying these items / combos, and nerfs could come quickly since people could just change it up if they weren't happy with the rebalance. This is still a Beta build, so it should be treated as such. Our player base is far too small to stick to dreams and ignore reality.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 914	Posted - 2013.08.20 01:26:00 - [99] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: low genius wrote: if a respec happens today, then ccp will have to spend the next 6 weeks balancing whatever fotm gun everyone specs into, thus a waste of time. Just because fewer people are using something seen as "OP" doesn't make it any less of a problem. A re specialization system would go a LONG way towards identifying these items / combos, and nerfs could come quickly since people could just change it up if they weren't happy with the rebalance. This is still a Beta build, so it should be treated as such. Our player base is far too small to stick to dreams and ignore reality. This should be an automated response to anyone against respecs. Well put
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7536	Posted - 2013.08.20 02:20:00 - [100] - Quote I don't think NinjamonkeyX should be balancing vehicles either. :P Just sayin, because we already tried the method outlined by the like for a while and its gotten nowhere closer to a balanced feel of the game. Time to gut the whole machine and start over. As for my entire theory on how to fix vehicles would be to define the following: Role of said vehicle to match the endurance window long enough to successfully complete at the cost of a reasonable down time for doing so. That mission and based on pilot and av decisions whoever can slam the window shut (pilot escapes), or force it open (AV screws up the pilot) wins the outcome. If you look at this extremely subjectively you'll notice this has a similarity to something already existing in Dust.. But that's just my theory, feel free to disagree with the theory with your own, because I highly doubt this whole, "tweak numbers slightly" is going to work even without a purpose. If we tweak them up too high we'll get zitro to come back, tweak them too low and you get plenty of upset pilots, there doesn't seem to be a sweet spot with skill into account. Where Meta-Skill in = power out and most of the current number tweakings I have seen suggested by pilots is to ensure that AV Meta-Skill in = power out is extremely low versus that of the the vehicles. Which is how we got to the whole zitro tank in the first place. As for identifying things that are overpowered, CCP typically finds out real quick, after all they do track who buys what.

Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 552	Posted - 2013.08.20 02:37:00 - [101] - Quote I'm a proponent of not having full respecs, HOWEVER, I have no problems with them allowing partial repecs for new racial variants that come out, similarly to what they did when they changed the dropsuit costs and requirements. Where issues come up are when people need to be reimbursed for skillbooks, which IMO just complicates things further.Example being If a new racial heavies come out, make all the people who have skills into amarr heavy suits get a refund on only the SP put into heavy suits. They can choose to then either A) put it in the new suits B) put it in back where it was in the old suits C) put it somewhere else This kind of respec is so limited and only happens on rare occassions that it would prevent imbalanced FOTM binging. I'm against respecs on the basis that while a game is continuously balancing itself, consequences for your actions and specialization are important aspects that separate this game from others.
LADY MYATO QcGOLD 85	Posted - 2013.08.20 02:41:00 - [102] - Quote +1 for the Respec I need this respec right now my char = ** Not because i made a mistake neither did I follow the FOTM , it's ** because I used all my SP in Useless Tank. 6 million wasted I dont even play anymore on this toon because without vehicule I cant do ** and I got bored of using a Logi Lav as a combat vehicule instead of my Tank wich was supposed to be my main roles.....
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 241	Posted - 2013.08.20 02:50:00 - [103] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I don't think NinjamonkeyX should be balancing vehicles either. :P Just sayin, because we already tried the method outlined by the like for a while and its gotten nowhere closer to a balanced feel of the game. Time to gut the whole machine and start over. As for my entire theory on how to fix vehicles would be to define the following: Role of said vehicle to match the endurance window long enough to successfully complete at the cost of a reasonable down time for doing so. That mission and based on pilot and av decisions whoever can slam the window shut (pilot escapes), or force it open (AV screws up the pilot) wins the outcome. If you look at this extremely subjectively you'll notice this has a similarity to something already existing in Dust.. But that's just my theory, feel free to disagree with the theory with your own, because I highly doubt this whole, "tweak numbers slightly" is going to work even without a purpose. If we tweak them up too high we'll get zitro to come back, tweak them too low and you get plenty of upset pilots, there doesn't seem to be a sweet spot with skill into account. Where Meta-Skill in = power out and most of the current number tweakings I have seen suggested by pilots is to ensure that AV Meta-Skill in = power out is extremely low versus that of the the vehicles. Which is how we got to the whole zitro tank in the first place. As for identifying things that are overpowered, CCP typically finds out real quick, after all they do track who buys what and what is killing who. LOL.....I have a lot more experience with Vehicles & AV than most. You have no idea wtf you are doing with a lot of things.....and I have no clue whatsoever what you tried posting in your above "Theory".....Something about a Minigame I presume..... BTW "Zitro's Tank" happened b/c the Playerbase looked @ AV & said "WTF is this Non-AR piece of Sorcery???) The minute Proto AV Naders & Wyki Swarmers started popping up you could practically smell his "Rage-Face" coming from miles away. And as more Tankers went Shield-Rail the "Rage-Face" got stronger. You are oblivious to everything around you like a Lemming on a cliffside..... Just jump already, the "Big Boys" are trying to have Grown-up Discussions here
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7539	Posted - 2013.08.20 03:13:00 - [104] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I don't think NinjamonkeyX should be balancing vehicles either. :P Just sayin, because we already tried the method outlined by the like for a while and its gotten nowhere closer to a balanced feel of the game. Time to gut the whole machine and start over. As for my entire theory on how to fix vehicles would be to define the following: Role of said vehicle to match the endurance window long enough to successfully complete at the cost of a reasonable down time for doing so. That mission and based on pilot and av decisions whoever can slam the window shut (pilot escapes), or force it open (AV screws up the pilot) wins the outcome. If you look at this extremely subjectively you'll notice this has a similarity to something already existing in Dust.. But that's just my theory, feel free to disagree with the theory with your own, because I highly doubt this whole, "tweak numbers slightly" is going to work even without a purpose. If we tweak them up too high we'll get zitro to come back, tweak them too low and you get plenty of upset pilots, there doesn't seem to be a sweet spot with skill into account. Where Meta-Skill in = power out and most of the current number tweakings I have seen suggested by pilots is to ensure that AV Meta-Skill in = power out is extremely low versus that of the the vehicles. Which is how we got to the whole zitro tank in the first place. As for identifying things that are overpowered, CCP typically finds out real quick, after all they do track who buys what and what is killing who. LOL.....I have a lot more experience with Vehicles & AV than most. You have no idea wtf you are doing with a lot of things.....and I have no clue whatsoever what you tried posting in your above "Theory".....Something about a Minigame I presume..... BTW "Zitro's Tank" happened b/c the Playerbase looked @ AV & said "WTF is this Non-AR piece of Sorcery???) The minute Proto AV Naders & Wyki Swarmers started popping up you could practically smell his "Rage-Face" coming from miles away. And as more Tankers went Shield-Rail the "Rage-Face" got stronger. You are oblivious to everything around you like a Lemming on a cliffside..... Just jump already, the "Big Boys" are trying to have Grown-up Discussions here Operators of vehicles are not engineers for vehicles. Proof point you failed to present a counter theory let alone shoot mine my theory down.
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 242	Posted - 2013.08.20 03:35:00 - [105] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Ninjanomyx wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I don't think NinjamonkeyX should be balancing vehicles either. :P Just sayin, because we already tried the method outlined by the like for a while and its gotten nowhere closer to a balanced feel of the game. Time to gut the whole machine and start over. As for my entire theory on how to fix vehicles would be to define the following: Role of said vehicle to match the endurance window long enough to successfully complete at the cost of a reasonable down time for doing so. That mission and based on pilot and av decisions whoever can slam the window shut (pilot escapes), or force it open (AV screws up the pilot) wins the outcome. If you look at this extremely subjectively you'll notice this has a similarity to something already existing in Dust.. But that's just my theory, feel free to disagree with the theory with your own, because I highly doubt this whole, "tweak numbers slightly" is going to work even without a purpose. If we tweak them up too high we'll get zitro to come back, tweak them too low and you get plenty of upset pilots, there doesn't seem to be a sweet spot with skill into account. Where Meta-Skill in = power out and most of the current number tweakings I have seen suggested by pilots is to ensure that AV Meta-Skill in = power out is extremely low versus that of the the vehicles. Which is how we got to the whole zitro tank in the first place. As for identifying things that are overpowered, CCP typically finds out real quick, after all they do track who buys what and what is killing who. LOL.....I have a lot more experience with Vehicles & AV than most. You have no idea wtf you are doing with a lot of things.....and I have no clue whatsoever what you tried posting in your above "Theory".....Something about a Minigame I presume..... BTW "Zitro's Tank" happened b/c the Playerbase looked @ AV & said "WTF is this Non-AR piece of Sorcery???) The minute Proto AV Naders & Wyki Swarmers started popping up you could practically smell his "Rage-Face" coming from miles away. And as more Tankers went Shield-Rail the "Rage-Face" got stronger. You are oblivious to everything around you like a Lemming on a cliffside..... Just jump already, the "Big Boys" are trying to have Grown-up Discussions here Operators of vehicles are not engineers for vehicles. Proof point you failed to present a counter theory let alone shoot mine my theory down. Now you fail even more @ Reading & Comprehension.....GG Clearly I state how incomprehensible your "Theory" is. Try Re-Wording it, or flesh it out.....just do something b/c that mess of "Words" just read like a "Derp Train"..... You literally just said a bunch of random phrases, threw in some ill-placed "Tech Terms", then called it a "Mission" that has an "Outcome"??? I'm sorry.....but as this was typed, if this was presented to a Gamer Focus Group you would feel like you're in Metal Gear as "?" & "!" appears above the heads of the confused (Everyone.....) How about this??? Don't respond to this just yet.....I'd like to run an experiment here. If ANYONE (Minus the Author IWS & Alts) understood wtf he just proposed.....please post here with your "Translations" so I may see if I'm going Senile, or if IWS is just full blown Derpy..... I'll chech the replies when I wake up tomorrow. Let the games......BEGIN!!!!!!!!!
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 252	Posted - 2013.08.20 23:51:00 - [106] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Ninjanomyx wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I don't think NinjamonkeyX should be balancing vehicles either. :P Just sayin, because we already tried the method outlined by the like for a while and its gotten nowhere closer to a balanced feel of the game. Time to gut the whole machine and start over. As for my entire theory on how to fix vehicles would be to define the following: Role of said vehicle to match the endurance window long enough to successfully complete at the cost of a reasonable down time for doing so. That mission and based on pilot and av decisions whoever can slam the window shut (pilot escapes), or force it open (AV screws up the pilot) wins the outcome. If you look at this extremely subjectively you'll notice this has a similarity to something already existing in Dust.. But that's just my theory, feel free to disagree with the theory with your own, because I highly doubt this whole, "tweak numbers slightly" is going to work even without a purpose. If we tweak them up too high we'll get zitro to come back, tweak them too low and you get plenty of upset pilots, there doesn't seem to be a sweet spot with skill into account. Where Meta-Skill in = power out and most of the current number tweakings I have seen suggested by pilots is to ensure that AV Meta-Skill in = power out is extremely low versus that of the the vehicles. Which is how we got to the whole zitro tank in the first place. As for identifying things that are overpowered, CCP typically finds out real quick, after all they do track who buys what and what is killing who. LOL.....I have a lot more experience with Vehicles & AV than most. You have no idea wtf you are doing with a lot of things.....and I have no clue whatsoever what you tried posting in your above "Theory".....Something about a Minigame I presume..... BTW "Zitro's Tank" happened b/c the Playerbase looked @ AV & said "WTF is this Non-AR piece of Sorcery???) The minute Proto AV Naders & Wyki Swarmers started popping up you could practically smell his "Rage-Face" coming from miles away. And as more Tankers went Shield-Rail the "Rage-Face" got stronger. You are oblivious to everything around you like a Lemming on a cliffside..... Just jump already, the "Big Boys" are trying to have Grown-up Discussions here Operators of vehicles are not engineers for vehicles. Proof point you failed to present a counter theory let alone shoot mine my theory down. In almost 2 Days noone was able/willing to clarify/translate this garbled mess??? Experiment over.....point proven. IWS you may now take the stand and try to reconcile this Fail.....
Cy Clone1 Intara Direct Action Caldari State 215	Posted - 2013.08.21 00:35:00 - [107] - Quote Quote: BTW "Zitro's Tank" happened b/c the Playerbase looked @ AV & said "WTF is this Non-AR piece of Sorcery???) The minute Proto AV Naders & Wyki Swarmers started popping up you could practically smell his "Rage-Face" coming from miles away. And as more Tankers went Shield-Rail the "Rage-Face" got stronger. its true in chromosome tanks were in a great place, but seemed op because amount of av on the filed was next to nothing. Very rarely did I ever encounter proto level av.. uprising tanks were nerfed and more av had also appeared.
Klash 816 Sand Mercenary Corps Inc. Interstellar Conquest Enterprises 49	Posted - 2013.08.21 01:58:00 - [108] - Quote Ninja you should run for CPM, you could be the Simon of the group: smart well informed with good intensions but come of as jerk to most people and in some cases you are. Anyway good post I read all the reply :) +1 agreed and all that jazz (but seriously try to be nicer to the blues, they only say HTFU because they feel it makes them pro)
Cosgar ParagonX 4460	Posted - 2013.08.21 02:00:00 - [109] - Quote If a respec system was implemented, but you had to give up 1/3 of your lifetime SP to respec, would you do it?
Faquira Bleuetta Pure Innocence. EoN. 68	Posted - 2013.08.21 02:12:00 - [110] - Quote want to be caldary shield armor sux

Seymor Krelborn DUST University Ivy League 549	Posted - 2013.08.21 02:24:00 - [111] - Quote ok lets be honest here, if you allocated your SP correctly to begin with, meaning ALL core skills to 5, such as armor/shield upgrades, electronics/engineering, dropsuit upgrades, etc etc then you spent most of your sp on skills that give all suits a passive buff, and most people do have either a suit or weapon they skilled in with no regrets, for some , both a suit and weapon... after that it leaves what? a few mil sp that you may have flubbed? if from the start of all these respec QQ threads began and 1.5 drops those people just saved their sp, they would have enough to skill into what they want now, pure and simple. this negates the need for a respect period. I know a lot of the community agrees that once this game is no longer a beta a respec may be prudent... but again by this time most of you sad pandas would have earned the sp to reskill into something you like better without needing a respec. as far as new players are concerned, I agree 100% they should get one respec once out of the academy and maybe after earning a few mil sp. this would improve NPE 10 fold. vehicle users are the most abused/ neglected players in the game.... but once this is fixed they wont need a respec either... until then I would say stop putting sp in vehicles... problem solved w/out a respec here too.
Dachande Anasazi Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 13	Posted - 2013.08.21 02:47:00 - [112] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: First Prophet wrote: DCUO is completely different from both EVE and Dust so the whole DCUO did it so dust could too, is a bad argument to start with. I'd really like to see that be removed. Otherwise I get what you're trying to say. Actually.....it is quite valid if you know your game genres & pricing models as DCUO is a prime example of both sides of the fence. It started out as a disc-only purchase with a subscription model with no Character/Power-Type Respecs (It had a Respec Chamber for Power Points & Skill Points only, not a Class/Type, and it cost ingame currency). Then it went Free-to-Play with Sub Option with Respec Tokens for many things.....then it just went Pure Pay-to-Win. It has seen all sides of the fence, so it is the most optimal example for this discussion since we are in fact discussing both a Subscription & Free-to-Play Model MMO. /agreed BUT I need to troll you.. It was NOT pay to win. I think it was a perfect example of free to play...then again I played on PC. Plus I may have had skills you just lacked with a mouse and keyboard :P
Promethius Franklin DUST University Ivy League 175	Posted - 2013.08.21 03:21:00 - [113] - Quote Ninjanomyx wrote: Now you fail even more @ Reading & Comprehension.....GG Clearly I state how incomprehensible your "Theory" is. Try Re-Wording it, or flesh it out.....just do something b/c that mess of "Words" just read like a "Derp Train"..... You literally just said a bunch of random phrases, threw in some ill-placed "Tech Terms", then called it a "Mission" that has an "Outcome"??? I'm sorry.....but as this was typed, if this was presented to a Gamer Focus Group you would feel like you're in Metal Gear as "?" & "!" appears above the heads of the confused (Everyone.....) How about this??? Don't respond to this just yet.....I'd like to run an experiment here. If ANYONE (Minus the Author IWS & Alts) understood wtf he just proposed.....please post here with your "Translations" so I may see if I'm going Senile, or if IWS is just full blown Derpy..... I'll check the replies when I wake up tomorrow. Let the games......BEGIN!!!!!!!!! I thought you somewhat reasonable and comprehensible from the op but I'm genuinely not sure what you are trying to say here other than "I don't get it" regarding IWS's idea. IWS on the other hand I think I understood. Give a vehicle a dedicated task, base survivability of completing that task. Since the survivability is based on what it is supposed to do it will have to do that and get out to recover before doing it again. Vehicle vs AV game play revolves around allowing or denying the vehicle to complete it's task before going pop or being forced to retreat prematurely. The goal seems to be to get vehicles to be purposeful while not overpowering through excessive survivability. I think... Also you said almost 2 days had passed but you replies seem to only be 20 hours apart. What's up with that?
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 256	Posted - 2013.08.21 05:06:00 - [114] - Quote Klash 816 wrote: Ninja you should run for CPM, you could be the Simon of the group: smart well informed with good intensions but come of as jerk to most people and in some cases you are. Anyway good post I read all the reply :) +1 agreed and all that jazz (but seriously try to be nicer to the blues, they only say HTFU because they feel it makes them pro) Simon Cowl is weak vs Owls, for he is in fact a Beaver.....I prefer Simon Belmont :P
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 256	Posted - 2013.08.21 05:07:00 - [115] - Quote Cosgar wrote: If a respec system was implemented, but you had to give up 1/3 of your lifetime SP to respec, would you do it? No
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 256	Posted - 2013.08.21 05:09:00 - [116] - Quote Dachande Anasazi wrote: Ninjanomyx wrote: First Prophet wrote: DCUO is completely different from both EVE and Dust so the whole DCUO did it so dust could too, is a bad argument to start with. I'd really like to see that be removed. Otherwise I get what you're trying to say. Actually.....it is quite valid if you know your game genres & pricing models as DCUO is a prime example of both sides of the fence. It started out as a disc-only purchase with a subscription model with no Character/Power-Type Respecs (It had a Respec Chamber for Power Points & Skill Points only, not a Class/Type, and it cost ingame currency). Then it went Free-to-Play with Sub Option with Respec Tokens for many things.....then it just went Pure Pay-to-Win. It has seen all sides of the fence, so it is the most optimal example for this discussion since we are in fact discussing both a Subscription & Free-to-Play Model MMO. /agreed BUT I need to troll you.. It was NOT pay to win. I think it was a perfect example of free to play...then again I played on PC. Plus I may have had skills you just lacked with a mouse and keyboard :P Ani-Cancels are quite doable w/ DS3. I assure you this was not the case, but I digress
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 256	Posted - 2013.08.21 05:27:00 - [117] - Quote Seymor Krelborn wrote: ok lets be honest here, if you allocated your SP correctly to begin with, meaning ALL core skills to 5, such as armor/shield upgrades, electronics/engineering, dropsuit upgrades, etc etc then you spent most of your sp on skills that give all suits a passive buff, and most people do have either a suit or weapon they skilled in with no regrets, for some , both a suit and weapon... after that it leaves what? a few mil sp that you may have flubbed? if from the start of all these respec QQ threads began and 1.5 drops those people just saved their sp, they would have enough to skill into what they want now, pure and simple. this negates the need for a respect period. I know a lot of the community agrees that once this game is no longer a beta a respec may be prudent... but again by this time most of you sad pandas would have earned the sp to reskill into something you like better without needing a respec. as far as new players are concerned, I agree 100% they should get one respec once out of the academy and maybe after earning a few mil sp. this would improve NPE 10 fold. vehicle users are the most abused/ neglected players in the game.... but once this is fixed they wont need a respec either... until then I would say stop putting sp in vehicles... problem solved w/out a respec here too. It's a matter of "Fairplay". Medium Dropsuits received 2 opportunities to get themselves situated into their New Options. It is excessively selfish & biased should a Medium Frame User (80% or more of the Playerbase) attempt to depreciate the value of "Fairplay" by attempting to negate the probability of 20% or less of the Playerbase being provided such opportunity, while dismissing the issue at hand in its entirety..... This may or may not be you, but the point still stands. "Correctly" allocating SP is completely subjective..... This statement is inherently nullified as per the given situation and preference. A Player should never have to "Gimp" themselves while waiting for their Launch promised, "Fairplay", intended Spec-Path. Some Players are willing to masochistically "Gimp" their Gameplay by hoarding the vast majority of their SP for a year or so.....but I am not "That Guy"..... As a Competitive Player I stray far from the Casual path, thus investing SP into Temporary Viability until this mess is sorted out.
Mary Sedillo Pure Innocence. EoN. 234	Posted - 2013.08.21 05:29:00 - [118] - Quote So people can respec into FoTM right? Right? I am sure you guys LOVE MDs right now, just wait til EVERYONE has them!@!@@
Ninjanomyx Imperfects Negative-Feedback 256	Posted - 2013.08.21 05:58:00 - [119] - Quote Promethius Franklin wrote: Ninjanomyx wrote: Now you fail even more @ Reading & Comprehension.....GG Clearly I state how incomprehensible your "Theory" is. Try Re-Wording it, or flesh it out.....just do something b/c that mess of "Words" just read like a "Derp Train"..... You literally just said a bunch of random phrases, threw in some ill-placed "Tech Terms", then called it a "Mission" that has an "Outcome"??? I'm sorry.....but as this was typed, if this was presented to a Gamer Focus Group you would feel like you're in Metal Gear as "?" & "!" appears above the heads of the confused (Everyone.....) How about this??? Don't respond to this just yet.....I'd like to run an experiment here. If ANYONE (Minus the Author IWS & Alts) understood wtf he just proposed.....please post here with your "Translations" so I may see if I'm going Senile, or if IWS is just full blown Derpy..... I'll check the replies when I wake up tomorrow. Let the games......BEGIN!!!!!!!!! I thought you somewhat reasonable and comprehensible from the op but I'm genuinely not sure what you are trying to say here other than "I don't get it" regarding IWS's idea. IWS on the other hand I think I understood. Give a vehicle a dedicated task, base survivability of completing that task. Since the survivability is based on what it is supposed to do it will have to do that and get out to recover before doing it again. Vehicle vs AV game play revolves around allowing or denying the vehicle to complete it's task before going pop or being forced to retreat prematurely. The goal seems to be to get vehicles to be purposeful while not overpowering through excessive survivability. I think... Also you said almost 2 days had passed but you replies seem to only be 20 hours apart. What's up with that? The 2-Days part was for Troll. The rest was a statement of confusion as per IWS's Presentation. I'm glad someone understood and translated this for me, & I thank you for effortfully responding. If this is indeed what was intended.....I'd have to say the answer is quite clear. As a Tank has no capabilities aside from Move & Shoot.....it is pretty "Clear-Cut" what their purpose would be, at least I believe so..... That is to provide a means to "Push" into Enemy Territory, while possibly providing Cover, then Retreating should AV be present. This is what I understand a Blaster Tank should be doing. AV Grenades provide too much Role Flexibility, thus nullifying this intended "Mission". C4 & Proximity Explosives should be the Tool denying access, along with Proper AV. For a Rail Tank it would be akin to Sniping. Deny Vehicular Spawns, other Tanks, etc. Proper AV should be their only Counter since ithe Turret Speed & AI Capabilities are "Gimped". Rocket Tanks would be Mid-Range Area Denial, bombarding Choke Points to provide a "Push" Opening, and denying Objective Hacking. Same as Blaster for AV Solutions. There's really not much to it.....in terms of "Mission Agenda". If this were Battlefield we would be able to contribute to Objective Acquisition, have AV & AI Capabilities (Coaxl MGs), and other Tools that give us purpose & desirability.....but alas this is not Battlefield. Our Functions/Options are limited, our Small Turrets are essentially PG/CPU/ISK Sinks, Tank/Dropship Area Denial via AV is way too easy, & many other factors that is basically "Punishment" (ISK.....), but I digress. This Discussion is, after all, meant for another Topic. Thank IWS for the Derail.....lol, & good chat
The Robot Devil Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 854	Posted - 2013.08.21 08:03:00 - [120] - Quote I haven't seen one good reason for a SP refund. Respecs will not help fix anything. They may spike player numbers for a short while but in the long run all of the same problems will be here. I do agree with a partial refund for forced choices but only slightly and only if all of the new items are added at the same time. The problem is lack of content and low quality performance. We need the tools to provide our own content but we only have the tools to make us mad. Changing stats of out gear doesn't warrant repecs because the game will change constantly till they shut down the servers. "I can't test out new gear" - Almost all items can be leveled oned in very little time. This problem seems from a matchmaker that doesn't work and can never work because of the difference between the players. "They changed the ______ and I can't play like I did." If it broke your game then you were probably exploiting a known imbalance and we all knew it was coming. "New players have no chance." Everyone here was new at one point in time, yes some of us have been here longer but it doesn't mean much. I have had a respec or two but not because I asked for them or even wanted them. The forum is here along with plenty of other player generated videos, blogs and podcasts. Doing research does have advantages. "The game is boring and a respec would make it fun again." I may be fun for a week or two but the boredom of stagnation will creep back. We need things to do not more time thinking about where to put SP. The game is lackluster and will continue to be so until we have a full line of suits, vehicles, a battle system where we are separated by sec stat and pve. "I made bad choices with my SP." Sorry, I also pumped SP into somethings I wasn't happy with but I sucked it up and so should you. I never put more than a level or two into something until I try it for a few days. "It will fix proto stomping and fotm" How? Most players will spec straight into the current fotm and continue proto stomping like before. I have less than 10M SP but a person with 20 M SP will be able to perfect skills in more than one role. This hurts the idea of the game and the players. Respec win not raise the number of active and players. It would probably drop the total because they came back to a game thinking it was different only to find the same thing they left. It will not improve performance or balance because a completely different meta will evolve and more dev time will be spent on re-rebalancing. It will not make newer players more effective because if they bare good SP doesn't matter a whole lot and if they are bad they will continue to be bad. Respec will not fix any problems this game faces. The only fixes are constant feedback from the community and devs, continued hard work in balancing, bug squashing and performance. We need a full racial line of all weapons, suits and vehicles. We need pve and we need something to fight over that make our egos larger. Respec don't fix any of these problems and never will, they may seem to help but it is only makes us feel better for a while.



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