While the OP has written a fine post, one that I could almost get behind, ^^ this man has returned me to my senses. Great reply Cardinal.

Wow...some big words there for a 13 year old.

How dare I not agree with you. If I offer a dissenting opinion then my feedback is not welcome. Everyone who agrees with you however gets a gold star. I can see why you're so convincing. You should get into politics. I did

Talking down to people is a good tactic, especially on the internet where nobody can smack you for it. However, it loses its power when used over and over, especially when out of place. You asked for these people's feedback on your proposal, and they gave it. SURPRISE! Not everyone wants to lose their hard work so you can spec FoTM.

If you don't want to get negative feedback, you probably shoudn't post about something controversial like this. Make a daily shtpost how stupid people sound when they want nerfs or buffs to weapons. That's what I do

I invite you to come to this thread I made in response to yours, which I will be aptly bumping.

Cheers. I was hoping it wouldn't come to this.

respecs can only exacerbate the problems, and waste more time in development. no respecs. ever.

Hardly 13 kid.....& I have shown the capacity to both accept & understand, even compromise with differing point of view. Those were well-delivered, effortfully thought out, constructive presentations. On the other hand.....there's YOU....an ignoramus who makes no effort to provide any form of considerable reasoning behind your position on the subject at hand. You are a Trollworthy peon with the discussive capacity of an infant and the argumentative capacity of a "Redneck".... Go back under the bridge you Irrelevant Poster

So simply because the "Medium Dropsuit Crew", whom were graced with 2 RESPEC OPPORTUNITIES to fit into their NEWFOUND OPTIONS, are content with their "Choices.....the rest can go F**K themselves??? And THIS is what sways you??? So you take a completely rational/logical presentation and toss it aside simply b/c a SELFISH D**K brings back the "HTFU" Trope??? You are the worst kind of "Swing Voter".....I await the day Neo ****** gets voted into US Presidency for simply saying "C'mon" like F**KING Peter Griffin......

Knocking on 20 mill SP here and so I think I could be classified as a vet. Here's a pearl of wisdom that has been finely refined over the course of my merc career: spec into what you want to play, not FotM.

Seriously...if people did this you wouldn't need respecs. I'm full on proto gallente logibro with every single skill under DS core upgrades maxed, now I'm moving on to vehicle core upgrades and will be a gallente LLAV and LDS pilot (the power of OCD compells me to train whatever has 'logistics'on it). I have ALL of my SP 100% exactly where I want it, and I know exactly where the next 6 months of SP is going (literally, I have the list of skills ordered by priority :P). I love my merc and have no insecurity over my SP allocation.

You guys aren't getting respecs...you need to let go of this dead horse and just smarten up.

Well OP, you started out with one of the stronger arguments for respecs, though that's a low bar to clear considering most of them are of the "WTF?! WIN BUTON NO WORK!1!! MOAR RESPECTS!!!!1!!!11!!" variety.

However, as more and more people disagree with you, admittedly many with pretty poor counter-arguments, you have degenerated into more standard you disagree with me, your argument is invalid/petty insult territory. *sigh*
Despite this I'll take a stab at a coherent counter-argument anyway. Not sure why I need to do this for the 4th or 5th time, this topic is well past being tired, but whatever.
Some background: I'm at about 10 mil SP. I did not go into any FOTM's but would totally benefit from a respec because I spent some of my early SP unwisely. For that reason I totally support a respec at some low SP number, I guess 5 million as someone else proposed is fine, I guess you could really pick any number in that range and it would be OK. I also think at least a partial respec is due when the pilot or other racial variants of suits come out or other similar major changes to the skill tree are made. If someone proposes an aurum respec every year, I'm not all for it but I guess I could be talked into it. I can't remember who it was, but I completely agree with the person who said they just felt like Dust shouldn't be that way. It's not so much a HTFU kind of thing, it just feels incongruous with the whole vibe of the game. So, on to your original 3 steps:


#1: You don't give much argument in favor of this in the initial post, which is good because it's ludicrous. You do mention that it "may" be true that you will get more FOTM, but those people are hurting only themselves. First off, it's "will", not "may". I take serious issue with the suggestion that those people are only hurting themselves. How is that, exactly? They get an OP weapon to wipe everyone out and rack up kills and WP. Oh, right, they hurt themselves because when the weapon gets nerfed they have wasted all that time and SP and will have to go into another..... Oh wait, no they don't because all they have to do is wait a month and they get to respec and put all those SP into the new FOTM and do it all over again! How is this hurting the FOTM chaser, exactly?

#2: Your example makes sense but honestly would not be the majority of battles by a longshot. There just aren't that many people running in cohesive squads while also using a wide variety of equipment. Also, the whole reason things are considered OP FOTM is because there is no obvious counter to them in the majority of situations. That said, I already support a respec when major changes are made so no big deal here.

#3 seems a little redundant, if you offer respecs at a certain (i.e., 5 mil SP) level it obviates your proposal. Still on the fence about annual respecs but definitely don't think they should be free and bankable.

In all seriousness, call it a cliche if you want, but I just think that choices should matter. In instances like heavy suits, where we are being forced to make a false choice, sure, that deserves a respec to compensate. But otherwise, I don't think they are a good idea.

1. Midas Fool - As he has the vast majority of post responses it has skewed the display, thus making it seem as if I responded negativity on a consistent basis. This was a case of "Trolling the Troll", as I oddly have fun watching them "Try" while simultaneously pointing them out and keeping them engaged. After all.....there's always at least 1 of these. And as we all know, a discussion ain't a discussion without a Troll

Then why are so many respeccers so opposed to an untrainer boosters? That is something we can almost give away every month easily verses a full respec?

B/C it is.....counterproductive??? If someone is to pay for something it would be to progress, not regress or stay static until said "Booster" wears off. I read that proposal.....(In its initial phase before it was dropped), and to halt Passive SP Gain to untrain a single Skill over time (How do you account for per Level drain over time???) when you could rather productively potentially double the initial Passive SP Gain (Passive Omega Booster) is completely undesireable. It is so undesireable that it is essentially "Pay-to-Lose"..... Anyone willing to subject themselves to this is a total masochisc and/or utterly ignorant.

Meh I really wasn't trolling. I was completely serious...and my arguement was essentially the same as the last post, albeit John Demonsbane was able to sum his up quite a bit better. And you weren't being "negative". You were showing everyone that you truly could not be rational. As I pointed out, everyone who agreed with you in the slightest you gave a pat on the ass, and everyone who disagreed you insulted and rejected their feedback. Still after your post has been buried, you refuse to acknowledge that your ideas were possibly rejectable and the best you can do is insult again.

In fact you do this in every single post you reply to. If you disagree you just insult them and call them trolls.

And if anything this thread gave me a chuckle or two and something to these last couple days. I did that all 100% straight faced. I only respond because this does kind of push my buttons. I don't like being called a troll for being lighthearted.

I'm glad that this last response helped you calm down and try your best to save yourself.

There are more than one proposals out for that booster though.

Should take a third slot instead and be effective for one whole skill level unlike traditional boosters, each booster has a 'sp limit' instead so they would be tiered off into various multipliers and skill levels. Selecting the skill for un-training in the skill window only brings up the purchase of the one to do the job completely.

overall IMO all booster prices need to be cut down by anywhere from 1/2 of current to 1/4th

Untrainer boosters being the absolute cheapest of them.

Third slot should also allow for 'spike' boosters that increase the SP spent into a category and also has an SP limit and should not be aurum purchasable but droppable from EOM instead. Or alternatively an active booster that's based on skill points alone.

Hell while we are at it lets throw in more weaker boosters that drop from battle as well like a 12hr passive booster or a salvaged active booster that only gives 1.25 instead of 1.5 bonus. .

"I don't think this game is good enough yet" is a false dilemma. CCP doesn't have to be apologetic, not even to you.

I'm OK with a respec a year, but it absolutely must cost Aurum. It would be like an optional subscription fee and everyone who doesn't have the patience to save up SP could at least put some money into this project. Plus, like you pointed out it would punish everyone who went FoTM in a month's time. Also it would be similar enough to Eve's attribute system.

I don't understand how you have 22 mil SP and haven't figured out what you like. It sounds to me like you just want to train something to 5 RIGHT NOW, just like all the scrubs do. That is perfectly understandable, even I'll admit that grinding is a pain in the ass. However, it isn't exactly fair or noble. To someone like me with half your skill points that has invested them patiently, put in a lot of time in playing games, and spent a good amount of money in boosters, it really does take a huge amount of meaning out of this game. At your level you should know what kind of advantage you would gain. In fact I'm sure you do.

Just play a few matches. Damn. Protostomp if you must.

Because of your corp obligatory 10/10 if troll.

I'm confused at this response..... May you please be so kind as to rephrase your response and position on the matter at hand??? Your feedback would be greatly appreciated

Here you go. I don't really know why I still care...but I should explain myself.

First sentence: you've created a false dilemma as the basis for your argument. My "two cents" response. Not trolling.

Second sentence: Yeah, that's an ad hominem. My bad. Not a troll, though.

Third and fourth sentences: I'm trying to see things your way. Not a troll.

Fifth and sixth sentences: Why I don't see this your way/my argument. Not a troll.

Seventh sentence: Ad hominem. My bad. Couldn't resist. Remember how I said talking down is powerful?

Eighth sentence: My solution for you. Guess I should've been more specific (guess I should've coddled you).

Last sentence: Yep. This ad hominem is intentional. You want to look like an ass hang out with some of them.

I guess you did troll me. Congrats. You got me to dissect my own argument a hundred times and bump your post in the process. I didn't mind. I hope it brings attention to this so that CCP can tell us whether or not we're getting a respec. That way I can write stuff down so I put all my points back where they were and head out to fight some FoTMers.

Sigh...moral high ground? For being straightforward? Remember when I accused you of "I'm just gonna say your argument is invalid and therefore it is"? You are very guilty of this. In fact, its kinda all you do. Doesn't work here, man. Or at least it shouldn't...

Disagreeing with you doesn't qualify me for the title of "fanboy". Also "Claims" and "Logic" were amusing to me. 10/10. Maybe I should have included something along the lines of "whenever CCP decides to get around to it" to get a pat on the ass from you. Being edgy over a video game is just as bad as being a fanboy.

Now that this petty insult fight is over with, what do you have against Ironwolf (or CPM 0 for that matter), anyway?

Edit: Racism? You can't be serious.

I love you and miss you ninja. Hmu on Skype or something. This post was great. I'd you don't have a Skype then get at me another way.<33 talk to you later honey boo boo chil'.

having spent the day playing EvE, and away from the forums, I would like to think that i am ready to add more. I am however a little tired, so I am going to attempt to hold back from any emotional precipices.

Firstly, Ninja, you tend to be heavily critical of anyone that disagrees with you, if you want something discussed, that is not the way to go about it. As the OP you are the host.

Your original post was a fresh coat of paint on what has become a never ending rehash of the same demand. As others have said of the original post, it is well written and reasoned, I felt that there was an optimism presented.

This of course must be offset by your at times harsh critique of other members of the community.


Back OT though:
IMHO, DUST is not best served by frequent respecs. I feel that you almost agree on this point. The skill system in DUST is one of growth, a journey from a fresh merc, through the forge of countless battles, towards an indistinct future as a warrior of many talents and strengths, although it is not an MMO, the DUST system, is entirely reminiscent of the Elder Scrolls. Allowing players to break this pattern of battle and growth, and instead Matrix style download entire skill sets creates an entirely different game.
Adaptability is earnt in New Eden.
Having said that, CCP may decide that a respec is needed to allow for changes to the Skill Tree. The biggest danger when looking at balance is always at the point where a respec is given. New suit options, new weapon options will be big draws, skewing incidental data. Over the longer haul it doesn't matter though, except that for slow SP gainers the original choices will last all the longer, and longer again the deeper they went into those skills. As is mentioned in this thread iirc(yes I am that tired), and elsewhere on these forums, lv5 (proto) is simply not needed in most circumstances, Advanced level (lvl3) gear appears to be the metric.

Alleviating buyers remorse by instituting regular respecs creates a culture where choices no longer matter. You address this concern by advising that respecs should be parceled out on an annual basis. I must have it noted here though that just under a million SP is gained thru passive SP every month, so that around 9.6 million SP a year is about the minimum for a character on Passive gains. Played almost entirely not at all, at 5 games a week, a character would net about another million every year, if i am not mistaken.

I bring these numbers up simply to say that an annual respec shouldn't be needed, if you look at a minimally played character as gaining a new role for every anum that they fairly much Didn't play.



When i first read your OP, I felt very swayed towards the idea of a respec system, but I must say that having read the entire thread, there have been some good arguments against the idea of continuing respecs, enough that for myself, I feel that my original stance holds credence.

At the end of the day, having played EvE for as little as i have, I have decided to trust CCP as a game developer. Whatever they decide to do with DUST, I am sure that it will have an internal logic and structure that fits with their vision of how New Eden works. Whether or not I continue to play either game depends on many factors, not the least of which is whether these games continue to entertain or captivate me. Should I find that I no longer wish to play either game, then I would most likely find that I have either already stopped playing it, or going by previous games, that I shall continue till i find another game to replace it, such is the games industry and developers know it. There are not many developers lucky enough to have hard core fans, and those that do could do worse than to encourage such behavior.
Criticizing a portion of DUST's community because they also play EvE might get a few short sighted cheers, but of all the community, those most likely to stick around thru all the hard times earning more then passive SP, till the game is finally of such note as its elder sibling, will be those that share the belief that CCP has somewhat of a clue of what they are doing, and what they wish to achieve with this game.

Not everything needs to be cookie cutter.

I should probably get some sleep now, i think i am getting grumpy over nothing

The "Racism" remark was to example the situation. I have a tendency to not go "OMG ARABIC BOMBER!!!" when I see any Habibi, Persian, etc. You judged me from a Tag, hence the example. And, should you care to backtrack, you would notice I only "Neg'd" those who came off abrasive, non-constructive, deconstructive, and/or counterproductive.....hence "Case-by-Case Basis". There were a few posters who did show obvious resistance, without the aforementioned "Negativity", and I gave them a "Gold Star". I suppose my initially intended "Counter-Trolling" was a tad too effective, as it seems you had only focused on the "Negative Backlash" as opposed to the "Big Picture, hence "Horse with Blinders" & "Tunnel Vision".....

As for the CPM0??? I have not much at all against them as a whole. As for IWS??? As you can see....when presented with logic & civility I deliver the same in return. He has (As far as most of the Posts/Suggestions I see from him.....), more often than not, presented terrible balancing proposals (Especially in regards to Vehicles.....), displayed a persistent lack of logic/coherence, made assertions and irrelevant statements (DCUO examples galore in this Topic for immediate reference.....), and is noted as a CCP "Apologist". I feel these are terrible qualities for a "Representative", as some one who is "Helping" to shape DUST 514, and as a Gamer under the "Public Eye". I consider him a "Hardcore Wannabee" Casual Gamer. I'm sure he may be a "Good" person overall.....but he often exudes an air of "DEE DEE DEE" & "HERP DERP" in the manner which he presents himself on a somewhat regular basis....