Lolvehicle players thinking swarms magically swerve around obstacles to hit them

Not quite, they do however do Magic 180s with pith any loss of speed. They should fly properly at least.

LolHAVscrubs whining about AV again !

Come back when your HAV gets bonuses from occupants and you can't solo dominate an entire team.

When vehicles require more occupants to be effective, only then should it take more than one AV to defeat them.

they cant jump around when locking on or firing, they dont instantly lock on, they dont lock through cover..

Lolvehicle players thinking swarms magically swerve around obstacles to hit them

You've proved your ignorance with this post.

You've obviously never driven a HAV.

Now whenever you try to say anything else about vehicles, I'll just quote this post.

Ive been on both sides of swarms, you obviously havent if you dont know their flight patterns

They do swerve.

Do this, get locked by a Swarm, allow the Swarms to nearly make it to you, use a wall to obstruct their flight path, watch them do 90 Degree turns.

And by the way, driving that Sica/Soma that one time doesn't make you an expert in all things vehicle related.

Another one, a Swarm user is outside your draw range, you're now getting hit by invisible Swarms.

A Swarm Launcher looks like its just launched its payload, but in fact, the Swarms just hit you.

Make swarms only lock DS, make FG do 39% damage vs DS. CCP can do some sci-fi wizardry to make this canon, DS have a built in resistance to railguns somehow.

Bam. Forge Guns wreck everything on the ground, Swarms wreck everything in the sky.

They absolutely do not swerve you are just a poor driver and a fool if you expect to get away from them when they are right on top of you

The render distance is your only legitimate complaint and it affects everyone to varying degrees and definitely needs to be fixed

So about swarms and their ability to swerve around objects.

They don't necessarily swerve around objects, they currently track to the location you were at when they were fired, then they will adjust to where you are.

This works out to a situation like this: Tank is sitting behind a building, then pokes his turret out around the corner and starts firing. Swarm launcher sees the tank, locks on, and fires. Tank sees the swarms and pulls back, well behind the corner. The swarms track to the tank's original location when fired, at the corner, then do a 90 degree turn and track on the new location, behind the building.

I don't know if this is a functioning as designed or a bug with the swarm tracking, but that's how it seems like swarms can "swerve" around obstacles

FG would complain then tbh

Unless they did it so the farther the shot the less damage it does over distance so DS can survive alot better when they take to the skies

Its good Im giving you something to quote, some facts on how swarms actually work rather than tanker QQ will be a nice change in your posting habits

And I dont know how you fail to understand that the wall will protect you if you get behind it in time not "herp derp missiles are almost on me, better move 20 feet and whine"
You act as though the wall is directly between you and the swarm but it stops, turns right to the end of the wall, turns left and then turns left again to hit you

Use them and learn the flight patterns and youll find out how easy they are to dodge, now I realise something like proper positioning might be difficult for beta tankers used to parking next to stuff for easy mode kills but its really not that difficult

Come back with a proto tank, with proto turret, with proto mods and all 3 seats filled with 3 pilot suits to super max out the HAV effectivness

1 proto AV wont be able to solo it, it may take teamwork to beat it and more than 1 person

Hoepfully lolswarms get fixed, they dont go around corners/cover, they render, i am able to see him, they cant jump around when locking on or firing, they dont instantly lock on, they dont lock through cover

We will see who will be crying then when we have a level playing field

How can you dodge something that travels invisible and goes around your cover anyways? you cant its impossible to avoid when they consistantly fly around cover

I see ppl lock on through the cover they are using then point the SL up at the sky and still somehow maintain lock even tho they are not looking at the vehicle anymore and fire swarms which go over ther cover and still hit the vehicle

And in response to this, yes I hope a lot of things get fixed, like the sound bug that causes swarms locking tone to dissappear for entire battles, or when I lock on to a target that gets destroyed before I launch leaving no way to cancel lock, then after firing a phantom set of swarms fire in a straight line.

There are still plenty of bugs and balancing issues left all over this game, but the main sticking point between HAVs and AV is whether it should take more than 1 AV to take out a HAV. The answer is NO when the HAV is single occupied, it shouldn't take 2 of 1 team to counter 1 of the other at equivalent skill investments. And you can't counter that HAVs require more sp because they just don't, the weapon is not the only investment in AV, all the secondary skills count too.

How can you dodge something that travels invisible and goes around your cover anyways? you cant its impossible to avoid when they consistantly fly around cover

I see ppl lock on through the cover they are using then point the SL up at the sky and still somehow maintain lock even tho they are not looking at the vehicle anymore and fire swarms which go over ther cover and still hit the vehicle

Its good Im giving you something to quote, some facts on how swarms actually work rather than tanker QQ will be a nice change in your posting habits

And I dont know how you fail to understand that the wall will protect you if you get behind it in time not "herp derp missiles are almost on me, better move 20 feet and whine"
You act as though the wall is directly between you and the swarm but it stops, turns right to the end of the wall, turns left and then turns left again to hit you

Use them and learn the flight patterns and youll find out how easy they are to dodge, now I realise something like proper positioning might be difficult for beta tankers used to parking next to stuff for easy mode kills but its really not that difficult

Again render distance is your only valid complaint and is something I think everyone agrees should be fixed
As for locking on through cover its no way as consistent as you might think since you actually need to be acquiring a lock before they go behind cover to actually get it and you have a very small degree of leeway to bank a shot over or around cover

You say the swarm launcher takes no skill but those banking shots are skill shots friend, use it and see how much it takes to do it consistently without breaking lock and then laugh at thinking swarm launchers have crazy DPS when you find out they have a cool down after firing that stops you from acquiring lock on, reloading, switching weapons, even sprinting for a couple seconds

Do you realise how big your HAV is ... you only see down the turret ... just because you can't see them, doesn't mean they can't see part of your vehicle to lock on to.

And firing at a tangent to your target is intended ... once locked the missiles will hold lock for a short time allowing them to be fired on an intercept to a moving target or from behind cover after target is locked.

Takes no skill

I have a BPO SL lol and i was able to lock on through things, fire, bunny hop and fire, bunny hop and lock, instant locking it feels like, quick firing, easiest ******* thing i have ever done in the game

Then the missiles come into play, go around corners no target is safe

I'm on record defending the FG, but the swarms are the lowest of the low in any game recently for ease of use AV weapons. Bunny hopping while locking on needs to go. All that damage, so stupidly easy and long range. Even AV nades take mroe skill, and that says a lot.

I can have my tank in a ditch and i will still routinely see swarms being fired at me even tho they shouldnt be able to see the tank let alone lock on yet they do

vehicles espc the heavys should require some teamwork to take out

So let me get this right

You were jumping to maintain LOS to get a lock and then jumping again to get a better firing position but say changing up your play style to get the optimal performance out of your weapon was not a learned skill

This is where you lost all credibility to your whining

So first its "I cant see swarms being shot at me" but now its "I see the swarms and they shouldnt have been able to get me" even though you dont know what the enemy sees on his screen?

Man, tankers flip flop more than politicians in an election year

You want a lore excuse about how the computer in the launcher is doing the locking and since nothing is being fired yet its pretty easy to keep it pointed in one direction unlike a rifle spraying plasma and kicking against you?
And you do lose lock if you point away, you just have a couple seconds before it happens

Let me guess you wont be happy until everyone that can harm you has to stand perfectly still in the open for 5 minutes before taking a single shot so you have a chance to fight back right?

Why dont you explain why a tank should be an indestructible force on the battlefield and use a better argument than "herp derp iz tank and cost da moniez"

Did you know that the swarms flight pattern leads them to the bottom of the tank so even if you are above the tank theres a chance it will still hit the terrain

Do you know how I know this? Its because I use swarm launchers and have driven tanks
Oh no there goes you "Nuh uh you dont even know cause you dont drive it" defense
If its driven well even a ****** militia tank can be a massive fire support bonus to a team

You want a lore excuse about how the computer in the launcher is doing the locking and since nothing is being fired yet its pretty easy to keep it pointed in one direction unlike a rifle spraying plasma and kicking against you?
And you do lose lock if you point away, you just have a couple seconds before it happens

Let me guess you wont be happy until everyone that can harm you has to stand perfectly still in the open for 5 minutes before taking a single shot so you have a chance to fight back right?

Why dont you explain why a tank should be an indestructible force on the battlefield and use a better argument than "herp derp iz tank and cost da moniez"

Couple of seconds lol, thats enough to fire the missiles, it should lose lock you are not looking at the target simple as

Im nearly fine with FG, granted they do more damage than a vehicle mounted large railgun but at least they need to be aimed by someone which requires some skill at least instead of lol lockon/firenforget/missilesroundcorner/freewp

Did you know that the swarms flight pattern leads them to the bottom of the tank so even if you are above the tank theres a chance it will still hit the terrain

Do you know how I know this? Its because I use swarm launchers and have driven tanks
Oh no there goes you "Nuh uh you dont even know cause you dont drive it" defense
If its driven well even a ****** militia tank can be a massive fire support bonus to a team

If you are not looking at the target you will lose lock, if they are on your screen but not directly within the targeting square you have roughly two seconds before lock is lost
We all have a free AV fitting with a swarm so this is basic level stuff to learn about the weapon

Solaire those two seconds go by faster than you think especially under fire, and I have an alt skilled into tanks, not at proto level with everything but even then its easy mode as long as you stay aware of the situation
Oh no, there goes the fan favorite "You dont drive tanks you dont know" defense

And Pegasis explain exactly how even a properly piloted militia tank does not benefit the team if you are so sure that statement has no credibility
I mean surely you can back up you BS if you are such the authority on whats credible or are you talking out of your ass?

Its more about the fact that you think you have a right to comment on the situation of HAVs just because you have an MLT HAV. Not that MLT HAVs aren't effective.

You lose lock after a couple of seconds you said which is more than enough to spam the missiles when looking up, i think it could even be more the a couple of seconds with some of the angles ive seen

You should lose lock instantly the moment you are not looking at the target, once out of the square you lose lock none of this extra few seconds crutch to get the missiles away

What part of "I have skilled into HAVs on an alt and use more than militia HAVs with the default fittings" dont you understand
I know the cost issues you whine about, I know the survivability issues you whine about, I know the "waaah swarms hit us" you whine about all first hand and I know you are also blowing it way out of proportion and they are hardly issues if you have even a shred of situational awareness and dont run off on your own like a damn fool

Yes, spam a weapon that has a lock on time and a cool down time before you can start the lock on process again
But if you really want things to be more accurate why dont you ask for at least two people to operate a tank, a driver and a gunner, and if fairness is really what you want how about asking for HAVs to have an ammo count

You have so many advantages already in your favor but complain about bankshots which take some skill to pull off well due to the screwed up flight pattern and needing some LOS to get the initial lock which a person could be easily killed during if the tanker is any good or has any support

Taka knowing where common high spots people like to nest is situational awareness, commmunicating with your squad to better know whats on the field and where it might be is situational awareness, if you cant comprehend that then you are just a bad player
Especially if you have the idea that "durr hurr I see two of da swermz, dat means dat only one guy shot it"
Lots of people have skilled into various forms of AV and you know what? If a tank is wrecking **** on the field those people are going to bring that AV to bear and since certain spots have much better vantage points of the map than others AV will congregate there

Oh hey, knowing those places and their lanes of fire and blind spots? ******* situational awareness


Yeesh, and I thought guys in EON knew their **** about this game

Common high spots

You mean the entire ******* map

No its not situation awareness its ******* common sense that these easymode bastards are up ther anyways, its just waiting for the envitable invisible swarms to hit you into next year, just like expecting AV nades from 3 different directions when you roll past somewhere

Situation awareness is completely different, its when to stay or run, its when to activate x y or z, its down this road or go the other way, its when you are in the battle and you decide what to do ther and then and whats next, its when you are in a SITUATION and are AWARE of what is happening around you

Not guessing that a SL user will make his way to point d in about 10mins ******* time, thats called guessing something that mystic meg did and ******* failed every week at it

Explain how being in a battle (situation) and knowing that the enemy is most likely going to be in locations A B or C since they give the greatest view is not being aware of whats going on around you
Its not rocket science and if you cant figure that out then maybe a nice game of candyland is more your speed

Your talking about future engaments when player b climbs up to tower c at x time and decides to take you out

You cant ******* guess when they hit you, you know where they may hit you from but you dont know when because if you did then you are seeing into the ******* future and would be able to to completely determine the outcome of the match because you would know what excatly would happen but as far as i know no one can do that so your full of ****

God you're dumb
If you know where the person is going to attack from you can take measures to minimize the danger you face or hell even as a squaddie to plant a RE over there to handle it
Oh look at that, influencing the outcomes of a confrontation before it even happens just by being aware of where the enemy is likely to be
Its so easy I wonder why humans havent been doing that for millennia

Wait a minute, you mean they have?

you know i would be fine if they toke this out for reworking and tweaking for a length of time called SOON tm

I would too because SOON tm is like 3months or so i can live without the SL for 3months or so

lolswarms

Invisible missiles, bend around cover, instant lock on and fire and forget the king of easy AV against generally everything

So what if it only effected air vehicles and FG/PL were only good for ground vehicles?

WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Shut up i havnt done yet

So swarms effect air vehicles, makes sense since they follow the target anyways, look at when they target ground vehicles they just follow the tank around the corner/s and it cant escape, too slow and big to not miss

DS can escape tho, at least if the DS pilot is good they would survive and SL users would maybe have to think and *GASP* work together instead of instant lock/fire & forget/free WP collected

Problem is the DS has the FG still to deal with, problem is the FG requires some aim at least unlike lolswarms

DS needs a buff anyways since CCP took away 2 skills which added more shield/armor hp to vehicles

So HAV and LAV would escape the lolswarms and instead FG/PL would be needed but it would eliminate the majority of problems thet vehicles users have with AV except it just dumps it on the DS pilot but hay at least we dont get whacked with invisible, corner avoiding fire and forget instant lock on through walls swarms anymore which we cannot avoid, at least when we die it would be to a FG who has to aim, if it was a death to a PL i would lol good for them, if its lolAVnades then no thats still a crutch which needs a nerf

Not like DS plague the skies anyways, but it would shaft alot of SL users but then again skilling into a crutch so meh

This idea will get shot down instantly because the majority of you are bad and rely on the lolswarms as it is

A tank should absolutely require multiple AV players to take it down. It's a freakin' TANK. You should scatter as soon as you see one approaching. Not switch to your AV fit to pop it and back to killing infantry in less than a minute. It should take teamwork (novel concept) to eliminate one.

thats soon TM
SOON tm is 9-14 months, you need to caught up in CCP talk.

on a off note since BF3 was brought up. they handle AV much better. its next to impossible to hit air vehicles with the smaw/rpg but they have more ammo so you use the lockon ones(names forgotten but w/e) but the lockon ones don't lock on to tanks and the tanks there take more shots and longer to solo kill then on dust, sad... i landed 4 rpg shots to back of an enemy tank and 5th was the kill and their tanks. my thoughts the only truely balanced AV is the plasma cannon after playing other games where tank deaths didn't mean a whole lot and coming back here where it mean 3-15 matches worth isk if you die once in a tank. sadly really that other games put tanks higher up then dust and make them free so yea proof the risk vs reward system isn't working and AFK is running rampant here because of the risk v reward system.

Care to explain your reasoning behind this ?
Why should it take more than 1 person to counter something 1 person can control ?
By that logic my assault rifle should take more than one person to take down ... it's on a 'freakin' armor plated and shielded dropsuit !
Ohh and what about a logiLAV ... that's a 'freakin' open top beach buggy with more defenses than your 'freakin' HAV !

lolswarms

Invisible missiles, bend around cover, instant lock on and fire and forget the king of easy AV against generally everything

So what if it only effected air vehicles and FG/PL were only good for ground vehicles?

WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Shut up i havnt done yet

So swarms effect air vehicles, makes sense since they follow the target anyways, look at when they target ground vehicles they just follow the tank around the corner/s and it cant escape, too slow and big to not miss

DS can escape tho, at least if the DS pilot is good they would survive and SL users would maybe have to think and *GASP* work together instead of instant lock/fire & forget/free WP collected

Problem is the DS has the FG still to deal with, problem is the FG requires some aim at least unlike lolswarms

DS needs a buff anyways since CCP took away 2 skills which added more shield/armor hp to vehicles

So HAV and LAV would escape the lolswarms and instead FG/PL would be needed but it would eliminate the majority of problems thet vehicles users have with AV except it just dumps it on the DS pilot but hay at least we dont get whacked with invisible, corner avoiding fire and forget instant lock on through walls swarms anymore which we cannot avoid, at least when we die it would be to a FG who has to aim, if it was a death to a PL i would lol good for them, if its lolAVnades then no thats still a crutch which needs a nerf

Not like DS plague the skies anyways, but it would shaft alot of SL users but then again skilling into a crutch so meh

This idea will get shot down instantly because the majority of you are bad and rely on the lolswarms as it is

I love how tankers talk about how "easy mode" swarms are yet sit in a tank with several thousand HP able to one/two piece infantry.

If anything is "easy mode" it's tanks.

GTFO.

As a proto swarmer: They seem to cut corners by aiming at vehicle trails instead of the vehicle itself. They are also incredibly pointless against most DS pilots.
As also a tanker: I do see all the glitches with them. To the target, swarms are usually invisible. Their ability to track also makes the damage direction sensor pointless. For armor vehicles the swarms do 120% (to my knowledge) and 80% to shields.

To vehicles- Of course there is going to be a weapon that can track. You think there wouldn't be something thousand years in the future. Especially when 3-4 (5) unique races grew to develop deferent technologies.

To swarms- You can do 2370+ damage to the best HAVs in the game. Though you may say that's deducted by the armor resistance... 15%+ 10% = 25% 2370 - 25%= 1777.5 If HAVs equip resistance mods... Equip damage mods. Don't complain about something you can fix. I am fairly certain armor havs don't usually equip resistance mods anyways.

For shield HAVs... yeah they have greater resistance against you guys(a lot). But they also have less average HP than armor tanks and a lot less HP p/s regen too. Shields usually do equip resistance mods because that's one of their few best advantages.
2370 - 20% (natural shield resistance) - 30% (resistance mods) = 1327 + 17% (damage mods) = 1552
On average shield HAVs have around 5000 hp. 5000/1552= 31ish% per hit
On average armor HAVs have around 6000 hp. 6000/1777= 29.%ish per hit

To HAV's you kill infantry in less a second.
To infantry your don't walk in the middle of the street.
You also take out 700,000 - 1,000,000 when you kill a tank.

Agreed but if they did that then they actually would have the potential to curve around cover and vehicle players would whine even more
As they are now the tracking is to good since it goes directly for the same spot on a vehicle always rather than a slower mid air adjustment
What vehicle players fail to realize is that super accurate tracking also means it will blow up against any cover you put between you and it unless its already right on your ass and since it tracks toward the bottom of the vehicle that also means they are prone to blowing up on any little bump on the ground

Unless you plant yourself on a roof its actually a pain in the ass to get the damn things to do what you want and a medium on a roof is much more vulnerable to a sniper than a heavy on a roof, hell you wouldnt even be able to return fire unlike the forge gun wielding heavy

LolHAVscrubs whining about AV again !

Come back when your HAV gets bonuses from occupants and you can't solo dominate an entire team.

When vehicles require more occupants to be effective, only then should it take more than one AV to defeat them.

Ive been on both sides of swarms, you obviously havent if you dont know their flight patterns

Did you know that the swarms flight pattern leads them to the bottom of the tank so even if you are above the tank theres a chance it will still hit the terrain

Do you know how I know this? Its because I use swarm launchers and have driven tanks
Oh no there goes you "Nuh uh you dont even know cause you dont drive it" defense
If its driven well even a ****** militia tank can be a massive fire support bonus to a team

You want a lore excuse about how the computer in the launcher is doing the locking and since nothing is being fired yet its pretty easy to keep it pointed in one direction unlike a rifle spraying plasma and kicking against you?
And you do lose lock if you point away, you just have a couple seconds before it happens

Let me guess you wont be happy until everyone that can harm you has to stand perfectly still in the open for 5 minutes before taking a single shot so you have a chance to fight back right?

Why dont you explain why a tank should be an indestructible force on the battlefield and use a better argument than "herp derp iz tank and cost da moniez"

Solaire those two seconds go by faster than you think especially under fire, and I have an alt skilled into tanks, not at proto level with everything but even then its easy mode as long as you stay aware of the situation
Oh no, there goes the fan favorite "You dont drive tanks you dont know" defense

And Pegasis explain exactly how even a properly piloted militia tank does not benefit the team if you are so sure that statement has no credibility
I mean surely you can back up you BS if you are such the authority on whats credible or are you talking out of your ass?

What part of "I have skilled into HAVs on an alt and use more than militia HAVs with the default fittings" dont you understand
I know the cost issues you whine about, I know the survivability issues you whine about, I know the "waaah swarms hit us" you whine about all first hand and I know you are also blowing it way out of proportion and they are hardly issues if you have even a shred of situational awareness and dont run off on your own like a damn fool

Explain how being in a battle (situation) and knowing that the enemy is most likely going to be in locations A B or C since they give the greatest view is not being aware of whats going on around you
Its not rocket science and if you cant figure that out then maybe a nice game of candyland is more your speed

I wonder.. did anyone ever think that the main counter to a Tank should be a.. Tank?

---

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Don't complain about something you can fix. I am fairly certain armor havs don't usually equip resistance mods anyways.

I wonder.. did anyone ever think that the main counter to a Tank should be a.. Tank?

---

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Then what was the point of AV? Or is the idea that 5 AV weapons were put in the game just for harassing LAV's?

That's not fair! That's overpowered! Why can't militia swarms solo a 15mil SP 1.3mil ISK tank!

Why can't it be that one guy should just be able to chase away a vehicle? Why must he be able to solo my tank?

This right here is why I can't take tankers seriously. Plenty of us running around with proto swarms and FG's and it's still always the "waaaaah militia" excuse.

Who said solo? And how did you get solo'd anyways? I've seem so many tankers not have this issue with "solo" proto AV on the field. But guess what, if half the team has AV grenades and you wander in rage it's not "solo" anymore. If an FG and 2 swarmers are giving chase it's not solo. And if you let me get behind you and unload 3 AV grenades right behind you followed by 2 swarms before you react you deserve to go down.

Because vehicles have been nerfed consecutively from build to build, while AV has been buffed from build to build.

Not all fits have an active scanner. Sometimes I have a gunner, sometimes I'm rolling up another tank's butt ready to do whatever I have to do to make sure we both survive any encounter.

Did you miss my "Just got alpha'd" thread?

I miss a lot of those topics because they typically degenerate into what you were doing before you actually started giving decent responses. The only reason I stopped here is because I spotted something that seemed exceptionally misguided in the idea that infantry, despite having a good variety of AV options, shouldn't be effective in AV. But that said, why, if I can get OHK'd in the back by a scout that didn't show on the mini map, should vehicles inherit an immunity to it? Asking seriously and realistically, is there even a way for a tank to be OHK'd by a single AV character? If not you already have the advantage.

Lolvehicle players thinking swarms magically swerve around obstacles to hit them

Depends on the AV weapon, requisite skills and vehicle being shot at. I've OHK'd a Kalaakiota Tac HAV with the DCMA during Chromosome because I hit it in the weak spot.

Get good at driving and dodging swarms, watch as they not only go through hills, they also go through corners

I love how tankers talk about how "easy mode" swarms are yet sit in a tank with several thousand HP able to one/two piece infantry.

If anything is "easy mode" it's tanks.

GTFO.

Get good at driving and dodging swarms, watch as they not only go through hills, they also go through corners

Your dropsuit should be able to take down more than one person. But I digress.

A tank should take more than one AV person to kill, because they are supposed to be a massive threat. I would expect a tank to shred infantry left and right, assuming it goes unopposed. And it should take teamwork to bring it down. That's why they have such a massive price tag, because losing one is a big deal. The only thing that should be abe to solo a tank, is another tank. Either that, or keep the way it is and massively reduce tank and associated modules by 70-80% so I don't go bankrupt losing them all the time

Like I said, They shouldn't get a huge raw hp buff, because that indeed would make them overpowered. Instead, they should have some sort of countermeasures system so they can disrupt your AV, making them harder to kill. I described the system in my post (you did read the whole thing right? ) Which allows a tank to disrupt one form of AV, at the expense of being vulnerable to the others. For instance, if I put a swarm launcher countermeasure in there, then your swarm will be less effective (not totally ineffective, read the tooltip for swarms to see what I mean) but that means I still have AV nades and forge guns to kill me. If I equip countermeasures against AV nades, swarms and forge guns can still get me. I can be destroyed, but it isn't a simple matter of hopping into an AV suit and killing me, then hopping back. I shouldn't lose a million isk tank in 4 hits from a 20,000 isk suit.

Imagine if the free militia suits could kill a proto suit in the time it takes for one person to kill a tank. There'd be screaming all over the forums. Vehicles should be no different.

- Ok ... firstly you seem to have this the wrong way round ... yes my dropsuit should be able to kill more than one person, as should your vehicle, as should my AV fit. My point was it should no REQUIRE more than one opponent to take out my dropsuit, your vehicle or my AV fit, unless your vehicle REQUIRES more than one person to operate. If that were the case you'd have World of HAVs because who wouldn't spec something that could stand up to multiple enemies n laugh it off !?


- This paragraph offers nothing to support your argument other than they should be a massive threat ... well they are ... why do you think EVERYONE has some form of investment in AV.
- Why should 1 person be able to "shred infantry left and right" yet "take teamwork to bring down" ... that my friend would be the pinnacle of over powered !
- They have a massive price tag to try to deter them from being spammed in pub matches, the price has nothing to do with their survivability against individual AV ... it has more to do with the age old Eve saying ... I'm sure you've heard it by now ... it goes like this "don't fly what you can't afford to lose !". At the moment it's CCP deciding how much things cost, but at some point supply and demand will be the deciding factor and if there's high demand, prices will be high and if they're one man wrecking machines like you want, trust me, demand would be high.


- yes I read your post and I chose to discuss your reasoning behind wanting a HAV to require multiple specialists to counter.
- What would be the difference between countermeasures and a hp buff ... same end result, more shots to kill, more time to run away, more time to run repair modules, less effective AV weapons, it's all having the same effect, it's been discussed to death, but the hard facts are, you're facing proto AV in basic HAVs, but that's another discussion again.
- To be fair I like your idea of countermeasures being specific to AV types, I hope when they implement them they are set up like this, I say when because it has been acknowledged by devs they intend to, but in a balanced system that would be a direct nerf to AV so they would have to be rebalanced a small degree at the time anyway.


- This analogy doesn't work as we currently don't have proto vehicles being killed by militia AV, what we have right now is quite the opposite !

In Summary - I believe HAVs should be a dominant force against infantry, which they are and they should be countered by the same number of people occupying it, leaving balance between the remaining infantry. Either that or they should be extreme end game assets requiring at least a years worth of training before you can even drive the hull, costing at least ten times the price and only be called in by big corporations when they need that edge over an opponent, since you're effectively taking an extra man off the other team to combat one man on yours.
Giving HAVs bonuses from occupants is the only reasonable solution to requiring more than one enemy counter, having skills for gunners to train to bonus your countermeasures, or supply added power to active or passive defensive modules increasing hp repaired or damage resist values. Do you not see the potential of this and how balanced it maintains 2 equal teams ?

You want 700,000 - 1.5-8 mil isk + at least 7-8 mil sp to be taken down by at most 200,000 isk +2 - 3,000,000 sp (Proto-ADV suit + proto swarms + AV nades + maybe proto nanohives.)
You could equip damage mods.
But overall that's what you're saying.
Extremely high risk with a small chance of ok award.

HEY! If anything is easy mode it's remote explosives. You just set it!!! AND FORGET IT!!!!


Although they don't work against me if you're putting them on objectives... I carry a flaylock just for that purpose.

- Ok ... firstly you seem to have this the wrong way round ... yes my dropsuit should be able to kill more than one person, as should your vehicle, as should my AV fit. My point was it should no REQUIRE more than one opponent to take out my dropsuit, your vehicle or my AV fit, unless your vehicle REQUIRES more than one person to operate. If that were the case you'd have World of HAVs because who wouldn't spec something that could stand up to multiple enemies n laugh it off !?


- This paragraph offers nothing to support your argument other than they should be a massive threat ... well they are ... why do you think EVERYONE has some form of investment in AV.
- Why should 1 person be able to "shred infantry left and right" yet "take teamwork to bring down" ... that my friend would be the pinnacle of over powered !
- They have a massive price tag to try to deter them from being spammed in pub matches, the price has nothing to do with their survivability against individual AV ... it has more to do with the age old Eve saying ... I'm sure you've heard it by now ... it goes like this "don't fly what you can't afford to lose !". At the moment it's CCP deciding how much things cost, but at some point supply and demand will be the deciding factor and if there's high demand, prices will be high and if they're one man wrecking machines like you want, trust me, demand would be high.


- yes I read your post and I chose to discuss your reasoning behind wanting a HAV to require multiple specialists to counter.
- What would be the difference between countermeasures and a hp buff ... same end result, more shots to kill, more time to run away, more time to run repair modules, less effective AV weapons, it's all having the same effect, it's been discussed to death, but the hard facts are, you're facing proto AV in basic HAVs, but that's another discussion again.
- To be fair I like your idea of countermeasures being specific to AV types, I hope when they implement them they are set up like this, I say when because it has been acknowledged by devs they intend to, but in a balanced system that would be a direct nerf to AV so they would have to be rebalanced a small degree at the time anyway.


- This analogy doesn't work as we currently don't have proto vehicles being killed by militia AV, what we have right now is quite the opposite !

In Summary - I believe HAVs should be a dominant force against infantry, which they are and they should be countered by the same number of people occupying it, leaving balance between the remaining infantry. Either that or they should be extreme end game assets requiring at least a years worth of training before you can even drive the hull, costing at least ten times the price and only be called in by big corporations when they need that edge over an opponent, since you're effectively taking an extra man off the other team to combat one man on yours.
Giving HAVs bonuses from occupants is the only reasonable solution to requiring more than one enemy counter, having skills for gunners to train to bonus your countermeasures, or supply added power to active or passive defensive modules increasing hp repaired or damage resist values. Do you not see the potential of this and how balanced it maintains 2 equal teams ?

How many crutches do you AV players need?

So if by more people making it more difficult to take out a tank, does that mean they get an HP boost for every other person in the tank? Because if not, you can go back to Battlefield.

That would be OP they would all scream

Take World of Tanks - Each tank has a crew, different guns and mods which can be upgraded and can fire diff shells yet a 3man crew tank can kill a 6man crew tank for example but only person is controlling it all on the PC, crew is just an AI thing

But take tanks in the real world with a crew, generally they would help the tank be a bit more efficient, able to reload faster, watch out for threats, take over for positions if you is injured, highlight threats etc but the tank itself is ******* beastly and costs millions to produce 1

Now DUST has no crew to speak of which does anything worthwhile, ammo is ther and reload is automatic due to nanites lets say and the only mods you can really vastly improve on is the turrets since basic/adv/proto while everything else is basic but the modules cannot be damaged, we cant overheat them and lolswarms cant take our tracks off us either but we cant improve the hull itself anyways or the tracks

But while its basic it requires a shitton of SP to make it worthwhile and a borderline battlefield threat with an ISK sink to boot, on the otherhand lolprotoswarms are easy to obtain and fit on all suits, if you are a assault guy or even logi you can skill it up with your main weapon as an AV option, even basic is enough to **** me off anyways due to the current flaws

Needless wants it to be a 1 for 1, so right now generally its 2-3 with basic to take down a fully fitted basic HAV, so Needless would want that nerfed so basic AV gets a massive buff up to the level of lolprotoswarm damage while a lolprotoswarm user will be able to take down a proto HAV simply because 1 person can drive it so its fair that one person can kill it right? lolno

To get to lolprotoswarms its a very small amount of SP and ISK tbh, we havnt seen proto tanks in a while and dont even have proto mods except for the turrets, so to get proto everything is again going to be another big SP sink and ISK sink to boot but it doesnt matter how many slots you have or tank because Needless here wants 1 person to take it out because it takes 1 to drive it

Needless wants to give everyfuckingidiot the chance to kill an expenisve vehicle on ther own with minimum SP investment

So Needless wants to balance on 1 v 1

What happens if the HAV has been filled up? 2 extra gunners, does the tank/resistances/speed/damage output etc change at all? if nothing does change then why fill up the extra seats? would pilot suits stack so that if i did fill the seats then i would get more tank/resistances/speed/ damage output etc because again if not why would i bother?

Currently in BF3 you can fill a tank with a 3man crew yet it routinely takes lolRPG 3 shots from one guy to kill it with ease, reactive armor doesnt work, proxy no good if you cant see em, thermal the same, countermeasures dont work, yet the lolRPG guy can and does bunnyhop around while firing/reloading and sponges at least 1 shot from the main cannon because lolcannon

If BF3 tried to be realistic in anyway, lolRPG guy would be ******* dead 9/10 times and wouldnt be able to bunnyhop around while firing/reloading and sponge pointblank cannon shots because he would have lost both ******* legs

Back to DUST, its the same as BF3, lolswarms guy bunnyhops his way through the field while reloaing/locking on/firing while he avoids damage from a railgun/lolmissiles even if he is in the middle of 4lolmissiles because missiles have no splash and i need a direct hit same as railgun splash non existant yet all the FG kill with splash just fine

So while bunnyhops about like a crackhead neither of my gunners can hit him so instead its easier to get out and deal with him, except most of the time the lolswarms guy is ******* 200m away doing the same thing which requires a sniper who still cant hit his bunnyhopping arse anyways so we back to square one but thats not including the lolmissiles from the lolswarms which bend around cover and are invisible half the time

The role of the HAV is to attack and **** things up, back in the day of closed beta in chromosome if you saw a tank as infantry you gtfo instantly or you died, you didnt run to a supply depot swap out to AV and solo the thing with lolavnades, you had to work as a team to take it out

Even now when i run my tank i generally either have someone in my tank watching out or other ppl out in the field rely the intel to me because them being in a gun seat can be useless half the time or i will dual tank so we back each other up but as soon as proto AV turns up we are ****** in general and more so with swarms because i dont really see FG bunnyhop around then generally move from side to side but they require aim so they cant do to much because it throws off the aim

If i run solo im ******, i dont have eyes in the back of my head and even if something hits me i could be driving into the danger zone because hit indicators are crap but even the damage can be hit hard and fast and im just ****** anyways

We have no countermeasures, all we can do is make the best basic tank we can and hear we have 1 guy who wants to solo everything with minimal effort

Where are the games when a tank is a tank and not a moving coffin? in FPS games they aint ther, they get nerfed consistantly and even BF3 has nerfed all vehicles to next to uselessness

Why is it that in general in todays gaming culture that everyone was to be able to kill everything without using teamwork, they want to solo it with minimum effort and as little skill as possible

Because if one person requires more than one opposition to counter them, that imbalances the battle. That's why all FPS games nerf vehicles to next to uselessness. If they didn't there wouldnt be a single infantry running round outside of a vehicle.

I'm not saying you should be able to solo it with minimal skill and effort ... I'm saying it shouod be possible to solo something that can be operated solo.

I remember chromosome when vehicles were free and I had great fun soloing everything since I'd had plenty of experience and tactics gained from E3 where I maxed out the Surya before getting bored of the god-mode and skilling swarms ... at which time there were very few Sagaris' I couldn't solo with a lot of effort and skill.

I don't want to "give everyfuckingidiot the chance to kill an expenisve vehicle on ther own with minimum SP investment" ... but when around 12 of my 14 mil sp is invested in my AV fitting, I should be able to dominate any of these numbers I've seen here of 3 mil sp or 7-8 mil sp vehicles ... plus value is irrelevant ... it's an arbitrary number assigned by CCP ... if you think it's too much ask for them to consider changing it ... fact of the matter is, I can die 5 times in a 200,000 isk AV suit to enemy infantry before I even fire a shot at a vehicle worth a million isk ... so cost isn't a factor.

"What happens if the HAV has been filled up? 2 extra gunners, does the tank/resistances/speed/damage output etc change at all? if nothing does change then why fill up the extra seats? would pilot suits stack so that if i did fill the seats then i would get more tank/resistances/speed/ damage output etc because again if not why would i bother?"
Basically YES ... that's exactly what I'm talking about ... vehicles operating with teamwork should take teamwork to defeat ... somehow, someway, whether it's as crude as a raw hp buff for filled seats ... or the ideas I've made a seperate thread about here ...
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1182471

most DS escape swarms these days but its ok at least they GTFO the area , swarms are better against LAV and tanks or turret instalations

Aslong as they keep moving at a fairly decent speed

Swarms knock you about when hit which can totally **** you up if low to the ground

Swarms only better against ground vehicles because of the amount of flaws with the weapons and they cant escape them

If swarms could only take out DS then DS have a chance to escape them only problem is then the FG/Rails but at least they require aim

oh so now swarms are wrong , LAV are wrong , MD is wrong , FG is wrong , everything is wrong

i hate this forum , i dont know why i keep trying to get sense into retards...

im losing hope in humanity

Well if you think that the missiles bending around corners/cover, locking on through objects, jumping while locking, firing while locking, not even looking at the target and still maintaining lock and able to fire, insta locking, no contermeasures, invisible swarms are all perfectly fine then you are the ******

they are seeking missiles, obviously they can bend around some corners

they don't lock through objects, i know because i use them all day every day. if you have a piece of your vehicle on show then i can lock it simple as that.

people can shoot and throw grenades while jumping. vehicles can move while shooting. you can get av stationary while doing av only when ccp makes all vehicles have to stay still to shoot.

firing while locking, what are you talking about. you lock you fire, you lock again and repeat until your ammo is depleted or your killed. you cannot fire and lock at the same time

target lock drops when not having the target inside the targeting space for i believe 2 secs. these are not laser guided weapons

no such thing as insta locking with swarms so you can get that out of your head right now. doesn't exist even as a bug

cover, speed, range, having crew, comms with redline snipers,more tank and less glass cannon. these are all the countermeasures you need. where is my countermeasure to tanks and other vehicles. oh yes its av weapons

i have never got this invisible swarm thing. i have been passenger on many vehicles, i drive lavs often and have yet to experience this. apparently it is very common yet no one has ever managed to capture this phenomenon on film. i will believe it when i see it.

They bend around corners after i have back around a corner and they are still far away

They lock through objects, you see the corner of the tank the red square pops up even if its behind 5ft of steel and you can lock on, you can do this with milita swarms so dont give me that BS

You shoot when jumping your aim is ****, nades dont matter even av nades because lolhoming crutch makes up for it, vehicles can move while shooting yes but not while jumping, lolvehicles have to stay to shoot, onthe breach FG requires you to be staionary but thats BS because i see them moving about alot of the time, im on about jumping and bunny hopping about and still being able to lock on and fire frankly that shouldnt happen its a missile on your shoulder

Fire while locking what are you on about ive never said that

Target lock should be instantly lost the moment you are not on your target, 2 sec is enough to fire the missiles

Insta locking swarms because 2sec is such a long time is might aswell be instant anyways, its not a long time because you can easy pop out of cover fire and be back in before i can do anything or even see you

Cover doesnt work when missiles bend around it all the time

Speed doesnt matter when swarms are faster than me and always catch up

Range doesnt matter they can hit at like 400m out and i wont see them lol invisible missiles, only way range works is if im in the redline and they time out

Crew with snipers, I do have a sniper and hes not bad but hitting bunnyhopping swarms aint that easy espc if they dont render but that means teamwork with other ppl then why are AV ppl allowd to not use teamwork and are able to solo every vehicle in the game?

More tank - 6.7k tank, 2 resist mods and scanner, but solo AV swarm guy with proto swarms can deal 3k per volly, i cannot upgrade my hull or mods to adv or proto level so how can i upgrade my tank if ther are no more mods availible?

So no countermeasures at all, im glad we cleared that up

Because you dont see invisible swarms then it isnt real, could you please say i dont see jupiter out of my window so it isnt real then and it will become true,oh sorry we already have pictures of jupiter, just because you dont see it doesnt mean it doesnt happen, generally to see this you have to be in a vehicle

lol passenger and drives LAVs

Opinion is now invalid


Next

they dont lock trough objects , they keep the lock trough object if they got locked when they werent behind objects or fully behind objects

you are too biased to make any valid points

NEXT

So first its "I cant see swarms being shot at me" but now its "I see the swarms and they shouldnt have been able to get me" even though you dont know what the enemy sees on his screen?

Man, tankers flip flop more than politicians in an election year

Next

They lock through objects i have done this with lolswarms, i have a basic BPO of lolswarms to boot

You are too attached to your OP crutch to make any points because if any of these problems get fixed then you are screwed, its not enough to have it at proto but you want all these broken OP features to stay in the game because it help you kill that vehicle

Next

Gibberish .

you sir are delusional , a liar and you are perturbed

remain perturbed

NEXT

Well if you think that the missiles bending around corners/cover, locking on through objects, jumping while locking, firing while locking, not even looking at the target and still maintaining lock and able to fire, insta locking, no contermeasures, invisible swarms are all perfectly fine then you are the ******

Hello OP.

You HAV aficionados need to finally realize that HAVs will never be what you want them to be. You need to understand that all these threads about how swarms and AV grenades and forge guns are OP are a waste of space because CCP will always rule in the favor of 90% of the population of this game, ie the people that play this game as infantry. And they will be right to do it.

Why do you think proto HAVs were taken out? Noone likes being stomped by an almost invincible tank, and CCP recognized that. Time to face reality, OP. You're in the minority. Your way to enjoy the game clashes with the way the other 90% of the players enjoy the game. You won't get what you want.

Pha scrub go back to cod if you hate havs that much.