Who said solo? And how did you get solo'd anyways? I've seem so many tankers not have this issue with "solo" proto AV on the field. But guess what, if half the team has AV grenades and you wander in rage it's not "solo" anymore. If an FG and 2 swarmers are giving chase it's not solo. And if you let me get behind you and unload 3 AV grenades right behind you followed by 2 swarms before you react you deserve to go down.

Because vehicles have been nerfed consecutively from build to build, while AV has been buffed from build to build.

Not all fits have an active scanner. Sometimes I have a gunner, sometimes I'm rolling up another tank's butt ready to do whatever I have to do to make sure we both survive any encounter.

Did you miss my "Just got alpha'd" thread?

I miss a lot of those topics because they typically degenerate into what you were doing before you actually started giving decent responses. The only reason I stopped here is because I spotted something that seemed exceptionally misguided in the idea that infantry, despite having a good variety of AV options, shouldn't be effective in AV. But that said, why, if I can get OHK'd in the back by a scout that didn't show on the mini map, should vehicles inherit an immunity to it? Asking seriously and realistically, is there even a way for a tank to be OHK'd by a single AV character? If not you already have the advantage.

Lolvehicle players thinking swarms magically swerve around obstacles to hit them

Depends on the AV weapon, requisite skills and vehicle being shot at. I've OHK'd a Kalaakiota Tac HAV with the DCMA during Chromosome because I hit it in the weak spot.

Get good at driving and dodging swarms, watch as they not only go through hills, they also go through corners

I love how tankers talk about how "easy mode" swarms are yet sit in a tank with several thousand HP able to one/two piece infantry.

If anything is "easy mode" it's tanks.

GTFO.

Get good at driving and dodging swarms, watch as they not only go through hills, they also go through corners

Your dropsuit should be able to take down more than one person. But I digress.

A tank should take more than one AV person to kill, because they are supposed to be a massive threat. I would expect a tank to shred infantry left and right, assuming it goes unopposed. And it should take teamwork to bring it down. That's why they have such a massive price tag, because losing one is a big deal. The only thing that should be abe to solo a tank, is another tank. Either that, or keep the way it is and massively reduce tank and associated modules by 70-80% so I don't go bankrupt losing them all the time

Like I said, They shouldn't get a huge raw hp buff, because that indeed would make them overpowered. Instead, they should have some sort of countermeasures system so they can disrupt your AV, making them harder to kill. I described the system in my post (you did read the whole thing right? ) Which allows a tank to disrupt one form of AV, at the expense of being vulnerable to the others. For instance, if I put a swarm launcher countermeasure in there, then your swarm will be less effective (not totally ineffective, read the tooltip for swarms to see what I mean) but that means I still have AV nades and forge guns to kill me. If I equip countermeasures against AV nades, swarms and forge guns can still get me. I can be destroyed, but it isn't a simple matter of hopping into an AV suit and killing me, then hopping back. I shouldn't lose a million isk tank in 4 hits from a 20,000 isk suit.

Imagine if the free militia suits could kill a proto suit in the time it takes for one person to kill a tank. There'd be screaming all over the forums. Vehicles should be no different.

- Ok ... firstly you seem to have this the wrong way round ... yes my dropsuit should be able to kill more than one person, as should your vehicle, as should my AV fit. My point was it should no REQUIRE more than one opponent to take out my dropsuit, your vehicle or my AV fit, unless your vehicle REQUIRES more than one person to operate. If that were the case you'd have World of HAVs because who wouldn't spec something that could stand up to multiple enemies n laugh it off !?


- This paragraph offers nothing to support your argument other than they should be a massive threat ... well they are ... why do you think EVERYONE has some form of investment in AV.
- Why should 1 person be able to "shred infantry left and right" yet "take teamwork to bring down" ... that my friend would be the pinnacle of over powered !
- They have a massive price tag to try to deter them from being spammed in pub matches, the price has nothing to do with their survivability against individual AV ... it has more to do with the age old Eve saying ... I'm sure you've heard it by now ... it goes like this "don't fly what you can't afford to lose !". At the moment it's CCP deciding how much things cost, but at some point supply and demand will be the deciding factor and if there's high demand, prices will be high and if they're one man wrecking machines like you want, trust me, demand would be high.


- yes I read your post and I chose to discuss your reasoning behind wanting a HAV to require multiple specialists to counter.
- What would be the difference between countermeasures and a hp buff ... same end result, more shots to kill, more time to run away, more time to run repair modules, less effective AV weapons, it's all having the same effect, it's been discussed to death, but the hard facts are, you're facing proto AV in basic HAVs, but that's another discussion again.
- To be fair I like your idea of countermeasures being specific to AV types, I hope when they implement them they are set up like this, I say when because it has been acknowledged by devs they intend to, but in a balanced system that would be a direct nerf to AV so they would have to be rebalanced a small degree at the time anyway.


- This analogy doesn't work as we currently don't have proto vehicles being killed by militia AV, what we have right now is quite the opposite !

In Summary - I believe HAVs should be a dominant force against infantry, which they are and they should be countered by the same number of people occupying it, leaving balance between the remaining infantry. Either that or they should be extreme end game assets requiring at least a years worth of training before you can even drive the hull, costing at least ten times the price and only be called in by big corporations when they need that edge over an opponent, since you're effectively taking an extra man off the other team to combat one man on yours.
Giving HAVs bonuses from occupants is the only reasonable solution to requiring more than one enemy counter, having skills for gunners to train to bonus your countermeasures, or supply added power to active or passive defensive modules increasing hp repaired or damage resist values. Do you not see the potential of this and how balanced it maintains 2 equal teams ?

You want 700,000 - 1.5-8 mil isk + at least 7-8 mil sp to be taken down by at most 200,000 isk +2 - 3,000,000 sp (Proto-ADV suit + proto swarms + AV nades + maybe proto nanohives.)
You could equip damage mods.
But overall that's what you're saying.
Extremely high risk with a small chance of ok award.

HEY! If anything is easy mode it's remote explosives. You just set it!!! AND FORGET IT!!!!


Although they don't work against me if you're putting them on objectives... I carry a flaylock just for that purpose.

- Ok ... firstly you seem to have this the wrong way round ... yes my dropsuit should be able to kill more than one person, as should your vehicle, as should my AV fit. My point was it should no REQUIRE more than one opponent to take out my dropsuit, your vehicle or my AV fit, unless your vehicle REQUIRES more than one person to operate. If that were the case you'd have World of HAVs because who wouldn't spec something that could stand up to multiple enemies n laugh it off !?


- This paragraph offers nothing to support your argument other than they should be a massive threat ... well they are ... why do you think EVERYONE has some form of investment in AV.
- Why should 1 person be able to "shred infantry left and right" yet "take teamwork to bring down" ... that my friend would be the pinnacle of over powered !
- They have a massive price tag to try to deter them from being spammed in pub matches, the price has nothing to do with their survivability against individual AV ... it has more to do with the age old Eve saying ... I'm sure you've heard it by now ... it goes like this "don't fly what you can't afford to lose !". At the moment it's CCP deciding how much things cost, but at some point supply and demand will be the deciding factor and if there's high demand, prices will be high and if they're one man wrecking machines like you want, trust me, demand would be high.


- yes I read your post and I chose to discuss your reasoning behind wanting a HAV to require multiple specialists to counter.
- What would be the difference between countermeasures and a hp buff ... same end result, more shots to kill, more time to run away, more time to run repair modules, less effective AV weapons, it's all having the same effect, it's been discussed to death, but the hard facts are, you're facing proto AV in basic HAVs, but that's another discussion again.
- To be fair I like your idea of countermeasures being specific to AV types, I hope when they implement them they are set up like this, I say when because it has been acknowledged by devs they intend to, but in a balanced system that would be a direct nerf to AV so they would have to be rebalanced a small degree at the time anyway.


- This analogy doesn't work as we currently don't have proto vehicles being killed by militia AV, what we have right now is quite the opposite !

In Summary - I believe HAVs should be a dominant force against infantry, which they are and they should be countered by the same number of people occupying it, leaving balance between the remaining infantry. Either that or they should be extreme end game assets requiring at least a years worth of training before you can even drive the hull, costing at least ten times the price and only be called in by big corporations when they need that edge over an opponent, since you're effectively taking an extra man off the other team to combat one man on yours.
Giving HAVs bonuses from occupants is the only reasonable solution to requiring more than one enemy counter, having skills for gunners to train to bonus your countermeasures, or supply added power to active or passive defensive modules increasing hp repaired or damage resist values. Do you not see the potential of this and how balanced it maintains 2 equal teams ?

How many crutches do you AV players need?

So if by more people making it more difficult to take out a tank, does that mean they get an HP boost for every other person in the tank? Because if not, you can go back to Battlefield.

That would be OP they would all scream

Take World of Tanks - Each tank has a crew, different guns and mods which can be upgraded and can fire diff shells yet a 3man crew tank can kill a 6man crew tank for example but only person is controlling it all on the PC, crew is just an AI thing

But take tanks in the real world with a crew, generally they would help the tank be a bit more efficient, able to reload faster, watch out for threats, take over for positions if you is injured, highlight threats etc but the tank itself is ******* beastly and costs millions to produce 1

Now DUST has no crew to speak of which does anything worthwhile, ammo is ther and reload is automatic due to nanites lets say and the only mods you can really vastly improve on is the turrets since basic/adv/proto while everything else is basic but the modules cannot be damaged, we cant overheat them and lolswarms cant take our tracks off us either but we cant improve the hull itself anyways or the tracks

But while its basic it requires a shitton of SP to make it worthwhile and a borderline battlefield threat with an ISK sink to boot, on the otherhand lolprotoswarms are easy to obtain and fit on all suits, if you are a assault guy or even logi you can skill it up with your main weapon as an AV option, even basic is enough to **** me off anyways due to the current flaws

Needless wants it to be a 1 for 1, so right now generally its 2-3 with basic to take down a fully fitted basic HAV, so Needless would want that nerfed so basic AV gets a massive buff up to the level of lolprotoswarm damage while a lolprotoswarm user will be able to take down a proto HAV simply because 1 person can drive it so its fair that one person can kill it right? lolno

To get to lolprotoswarms its a very small amount of SP and ISK tbh, we havnt seen proto tanks in a while and dont even have proto mods except for the turrets, so to get proto everything is again going to be another big SP sink and ISK sink to boot but it doesnt matter how many slots you have or tank because Needless here wants 1 person to take it out because it takes 1 to drive it

Needless wants to give everyfuckingidiot the chance to kill an expenisve vehicle on ther own with minimum SP investment

So Needless wants to balance on 1 v 1

What happens if the HAV has been filled up? 2 extra gunners, does the tank/resistances/speed/damage output etc change at all? if nothing does change then why fill up the extra seats? would pilot suits stack so that if i did fill the seats then i would get more tank/resistances/speed/ damage output etc because again if not why would i bother?

Currently in BF3 you can fill a tank with a 3man crew yet it routinely takes lolRPG 3 shots from one guy to kill it with ease, reactive armor doesnt work, proxy no good if you cant see em, thermal the same, countermeasures dont work, yet the lolRPG guy can and does bunnyhop around while firing/reloading and sponges at least 1 shot from the main cannon because lolcannon

If BF3 tried to be realistic in anyway, lolRPG guy would be ******* dead 9/10 times and wouldnt be able to bunnyhop around while firing/reloading and sponge pointblank cannon shots because he would have lost both ******* legs

Back to DUST, its the same as BF3, lolswarms guy bunnyhops his way through the field while reloaing/locking on/firing while he avoids damage from a railgun/lolmissiles even if he is in the middle of 4lolmissiles because missiles have no splash and i need a direct hit same as railgun splash non existant yet all the FG kill with splash just fine

So while bunnyhops about like a crackhead neither of my gunners can hit him so instead its easier to get out and deal with him, except most of the time the lolswarms guy is ******* 200m away doing the same thing which requires a sniper who still cant hit his bunnyhopping arse anyways so we back to square one but thats not including the lolmissiles from the lolswarms which bend around cover and are invisible half the time

The role of the HAV is to attack and **** things up, back in the day of closed beta in chromosome if you saw a tank as infantry you gtfo instantly or you died, you didnt run to a supply depot swap out to AV and solo the thing with lolavnades, you had to work as a team to take it out

Even now when i run my tank i generally either have someone in my tank watching out or other ppl out in the field rely the intel to me because them being in a gun seat can be useless half the time or i will dual tank so we back each other up but as soon as proto AV turns up we are ****** in general and more so with swarms because i dont really see FG bunnyhop around then generally move from side to side but they require aim so they cant do to much because it throws off the aim

If i run solo im ******, i dont have eyes in the back of my head and even if something hits me i could be driving into the danger zone because hit indicators are crap but even the damage can be hit hard and fast and im just ****** anyways

We have no countermeasures, all we can do is make the best basic tank we can and hear we have 1 guy who wants to solo everything with minimal effort

Where are the games when a tank is a tank and not a moving coffin? in FPS games they aint ther, they get nerfed consistantly and even BF3 has nerfed all vehicles to next to uselessness

Why is it that in general in todays gaming culture that everyone was to be able to kill everything without using teamwork, they want to solo it with minimum effort and as little skill as possible

Because if one person requires more than one opposition to counter them, that imbalances the battle. That's why all FPS games nerf vehicles to next to uselessness. If they didn't there wouldnt be a single infantry running round outside of a vehicle.

I'm not saying you should be able to solo it with minimal skill and effort ... I'm saying it shouod be possible to solo something that can be operated solo.

I remember chromosome when vehicles were free and I had great fun soloing everything since I'd had plenty of experience and tactics gained from E3 where I maxed out the Surya before getting bored of the god-mode and skilling swarms ... at which time there were very few Sagaris' I couldn't solo with a lot of effort and skill.

I don't want to "give everyfuckingidiot the chance to kill an expenisve vehicle on ther own with minimum SP investment" ... but when around 12 of my 14 mil sp is invested in my AV fitting, I should be able to dominate any of these numbers I've seen here of 3 mil sp or 7-8 mil sp vehicles ... plus value is irrelevant ... it's an arbitrary number assigned by CCP ... if you think it's too much ask for them to consider changing it ... fact of the matter is, I can die 5 times in a 200,000 isk AV suit to enemy infantry before I even fire a shot at a vehicle worth a million isk ... so cost isn't a factor.

"What happens if the HAV has been filled up? 2 extra gunners, does the tank/resistances/speed/damage output etc change at all? if nothing does change then why fill up the extra seats? would pilot suits stack so that if i did fill the seats then i would get more tank/resistances/speed/ damage output etc because again if not why would i bother?"
Basically YES ... that's exactly what I'm talking about ... vehicles operating with teamwork should take teamwork to defeat ... somehow, someway, whether it's as crude as a raw hp buff for filled seats ... or the ideas I've made a seperate thread about here ...
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1182471

most DS escape swarms these days but its ok at least they GTFO the area , swarms are better against LAV and tanks or turret instalations

Aslong as they keep moving at a fairly decent speed

Swarms knock you about when hit which can totally **** you up if low to the ground

Swarms only better against ground vehicles because of the amount of flaws with the weapons and they cant escape them

If swarms could only take out DS then DS have a chance to escape them only problem is then the FG/Rails but at least they require aim

oh so now swarms are wrong , LAV are wrong , MD is wrong , FG is wrong , everything is wrong

i hate this forum , i dont know why i keep trying to get sense into retards...

im losing hope in humanity

Well if you think that the missiles bending around corners/cover, locking on through objects, jumping while locking, firing while locking, not even looking at the target and still maintaining lock and able to fire, insta locking, no contermeasures, invisible swarms are all perfectly fine then you are the ******

they are seeking missiles, obviously they can bend around some corners

they don't lock through objects, i know because i use them all day every day. if you have a piece of your vehicle on show then i can lock it simple as that.

people can shoot and throw grenades while jumping. vehicles can move while shooting. you can get av stationary while doing av only when ccp makes all vehicles have to stay still to shoot.

firing while locking, what are you talking about. you lock you fire, you lock again and repeat until your ammo is depleted or your killed. you cannot fire and lock at the same time

target lock drops when not having the target inside the targeting space for i believe 2 secs. these are not laser guided weapons

no such thing as insta locking with swarms so you can get that out of your head right now. doesn't exist even as a bug

cover, speed, range, having crew, comms with redline snipers,more tank and less glass cannon. these are all the countermeasures you need. where is my countermeasure to tanks and other vehicles. oh yes its av weapons

i have never got this invisible swarm thing. i have been passenger on many vehicles, i drive lavs often and have yet to experience this. apparently it is very common yet no one has ever managed to capture this phenomenon on film. i will believe it when i see it.