DUST Search - lolswarm launcher

Takahiro Kashuken wrote:

Delta 749 wrote:

Its good Im giving you something to quote, some facts on how swarms actually work rather than tanker QQ will be a nice change in your posting habits

And I dont know how you fail to understand that the wall will protect you if you get behind it in time not "herp derp missiles are almost on me, better move 20 feet and whine"
You act as though the wall is directly between you and the swarm but it stops, turns right to the end of the wall, turns left and then turns left again to hit you

Use them and learn the flight patterns and youll find out how easy they are to dodge, now I realise something like proper positioning might be difficult for beta tankers used to parking next to stuff for easy mode kills but its really not that difficult

How can you dodge something that travels invisible and goes around your cover anyways? you cant its impossible to avoid when they consistantly fly around cover

I see ppl lock on through the cover they are using then point the SL up at the sky and still somehow maintain lock even tho they are not looking at the vehicle anymore and fire swarms which go over ther cover and still hit the vehicle


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Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 325	Posted - 2013.08.14 12:16:00 - [1] - Quote LolHAVscrubs whining about AV again ! Come back when your HAV gets bonuses from occupants and you can't solo dominate an entire team. When vehicles require more occupants to be effective, only then should it take more than one AV to defeat them.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 327	Posted - 2013.08.14 13:29:00 - [2] - Quote As of now ... near 2 hours after op ... your thread has 8 likes ... all for the counter arguments. If you want to complain about vehicle /AV balance, build a constructive intelligent argument and you might get some support. Make a trolling thread and you'll get trolling replies ... which still get more support than your op.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 327	Posted - 2013.08.14 13:38:00 - [3] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: LolHAVscrubs whining about AV again ! Come back when your HAV gets bonuses from occupants and you can't solo dominate an entire team. When vehicles require more occupants to be effective, only then should it take more than one AV to defeat them. Come back with a proto tank, with proto turret, with proto mods and all 3 seats filled with 3 pilot suits to super max out the HAV effectivness 1 proto AV wont be able to solo it, it may take teamwork to beat it and more than 1 person Hoepfully lolswarms get fixed, they dont go around corners/cover, they render, i am able to see him, they cant jump around when locking on or firing, they dont instantly lock on, they dont lock through cover We will see who will be crying then when we have a level playing field And in response to this, yes I hope a lot of things get fixed, like the sound bug that causes swarms locking tone to dissappear for entire battles, or when I lock on to a target that gets destroyed before I launch leaving no way to cancel lock, then after firing a phantom set of swarms fire in a straight line. There are still plenty of bugs and balancing issues left all over this game, but the main sticking point between HAVs and AV is whether it should take more than 1 AV to take out a HAV. The answer is NO when the HAV is single occupied, it shouldn't take 2 of 1 team to counter 1 of the other at equivalent skill investments. And you can't counter that HAVs require more sp because they just don't, the weapon is not the only investment in AV, all the secondary skills count too.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 327	Posted - 2013.08.14 13:45:00 - [4] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Delta 749 wrote: Its good Im giving you something to quote, some facts on how swarms actually work rather than tanker QQ will be a nice change in your posting habits And I dont know how you fail to understand that the wall will protect you if you get behind it in time not "herp derp missiles are almost on me, better move 20 feet and whine" You act as though the wall is directly between you and the swarm but it stops, turns right to the end of the wall, turns left and then turns left again to hit you Use them and learn the flight patterns and youll find out how easy they are to dodge, now I realise something like proper positioning might be difficult for beta tankers used to parking next to stuff for easy mode kills but its really not that difficult How can you dodge something that travels invisible and goes around your cover anyways? you cant its impossible to avoid when they consistantly fly around cover I see ppl lock on through the cover they are using then point the SL up at the sky and still somehow maintain lock even tho they are not looking at the vehicle anymore and fire swarms which go over ther cover and still hit the vehicle Do you realise how big your HAV is ... you only see down the turret ... just because you can't see them, doesn't mean they can't see part of your vehicle to lock on to. And firing at a tangent to your target is intended ... once locked the missiles will hold lock for a short time allowing them to be fired on an intercept to a moving target or from behind cover after target is locked.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 327	Posted - 2013.08.14 14:01:00 - [5] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: vehicles espc the heavys should require some teamwork to take out Why should 1 person require more than 1 person to counter ... that would be the definition of OP ! Like I said, when HAVs require passengers to be effective, only then should it take more than 1 equivalently invested AV to counter it. You should get bonuses to mobility or survivability by filling those empty seats.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 330	Posted - 2013.08.14 17:32:00 - [6] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: A tank should absolutely require multiple AV players to take it down. It's a freakin' TANK. You should scatter as soon as you see one approaching. Not switch to your AV fit to pop it and back to killing infantry in less than a minute. It should take teamwork (novel concept) to eliminate one. Care to explain your reasoning behind this ? Why should it take more than 1 person to counter something 1 person can control ? By that logic my assault rifle should take more than one person to take down ... it's on a 'freakin' armor plated and shielded dropsuit ! Ohh and what about a logiLAV ... that's a 'freakin' open top beach buggy with more defenses than your 'freakin' HAV !
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 332	Posted - 2013.08.15 18:12:00 - [7] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Your dropsuit should be able to take down more than one person. But I digress. - Ok ... firstly you seem to have this the wrong way round ... yes my dropsuit should be able to kill more than one person, as should your vehicle, as should my AV fit. My point was it should no REQUIRE more than one opponent to take out my dropsuit, your vehicle or my AV fit, unless your vehicle REQUIRES more than one person to operate. If that were the case you'd have World of HAVs because who wouldn't spec something that could stand up to multiple enemies n laugh it off !? Alena Ventrallis wrote: A tank should take more than one AV person to kill, because they are supposed to be a massive threat. I would expect a tank to shred infantry left and right, assuming it goes unopposed. And it should take teamwork to bring it down. That's why they have such a massive price tag, because losing one is a big deal. The only thing that should be abe to solo a tank, is another tank. Either that, or keep the way it is and massively reduce tank and associated modules by 70-80% so I don't go bankrupt losing them all the time - This paragraph offers nothing to support your argument other than they should be a massive threat ... well they are ... why do you think EVERYONE has some form of investment in AV. - Why should 1 person be able to "shred infantry left and right" yet "take teamwork to bring down" ... that my friend would be the pinnacle of over powered ! - They have a massive price tag to try to deter them from being spammed in pub matches, the price has nothing to do with their survivability against individual AV ... it has more to do with the age old Eve saying ... I'm sure you've heard it by now ... it goes like this "don't fly what you can't afford to lose !". At the moment it's CCP deciding how much things cost, but at some point supply and demand will be the deciding factor and if there's high demand, prices will be high and if they're one man wrecking machines like you want, trust me, demand would be high. Alena Ventrallis wrote: Like I said, They shouldn't get a huge raw hp buff, because that indeed would make them overpowered. Instead, they should have some sort of countermeasures system so they can disrupt your AV, making them harder to kill. I described the system in my post (you did read the whole thing right? ) Which allows a tank to disrupt one form of AV, at the expense of being vulnerable to the others. For instance, if I put a swarm launcher countermeasure in there, then your swarm will be less effective (not totally ineffective, read the tooltip for swarms to see what I mean) but that means I still have AV nades and forge guns to kill me. If I equip countermeasures against AV nades, swarms and forge guns can still get me. I can be destroyed, but it isn't a simple matter of hopping into an AV suit and killing me, then hopping back. I shouldn't lose a million isk tank in 4 hits from a 20,000 isk suit. - yes I read your post and I chose to discuss your reasoning behind wanting a HAV to require multiple specialists to counter. - What would be the difference between countermeasures and a hp buff ... same end result, more shots to kill, more time to run away, more time to run repair modules, less effective AV weapons, it's all having the same effect, it's been discussed to death, but the hard facts are, you're facing proto AV in basic HAVs, but that's another discussion again. - To be fair I like your idea of countermeasures being specific to AV types, I hope when they implement them they are set up like this, I say when because it has been acknowledged by devs they intend to, but in a balanced system that would be a direct nerf to AV so they would have to be rebalanced a small degree at the time anyway. Alena Ventrallis wrote: Imagine if the free militia suits could kill a proto suit in the time it takes for one person to kill a tank. There'd be screaming all over the forums. Vehicles should be no different. - This analogy doesn't work as we currently don't have proto vehicles being killed by militia AV, what we have right now is quite the opposite ! In Summary - I believe HAVs should be a dominant force against infantry, which they are and they should be countered by the same number of people occupying it, leaving balance between the remaining infantry. Either that or they should be extreme end game assets requiring at least a years worth of training before you can even drive the hull, costing at least ten times the price and only be called in by big corporations when they need that edge over an opponent, since you're effectively taking an extra man off the other team to combat one man on yours. Giving HAVs bonuses from occupants is the only reasonable solution to requiring more than one enemy counter, having skills for gunners to train to bonus your countermeasures, or supply added power to active or passive defensive modules increasing hp repaired or damage resist values. Do you not see the potential of this and how balanced it maintains 2 equal teams ?
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 332	Posted - 2013.08.15 18:58:00 - [8] - Quote Xender17 wrote: You want 700,000 - 1.5-8 mil isk + at least 7-8 mil sp to be taken down by at most 200,000 isk +2 - 3,000,000 sp (Proto-ADV suit + proto swarms + AV nades + maybe proto nanohives.) You could equip damage mods. But overall that's what you're saying. Extremely high risk with a small chance of ok award. Yes ... as I said in that post you quoted, when it is occupied by a single person, it should be countered by a single person, otherwise it is a dominant force against an already weakened opponent by virtue of them having multiple characters countering one of yours ! What part of overpowered do you not understand ? Edited : As I also mentioned in that post ... price is an arbitrary number generated by CCP ... it has no bearing other than the affor mentioned "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose"
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 350	Posted - 2013.08.16 12:12:00 - [9] - Quote Because if one person requires more than one opposition to counter them, that imbalances the battle. That's why all FPS games nerf vehicles to next to uselessness. If they didn't there wouldnt be a single infantry running round outside of a vehicle. I'm not saying you should be able to solo it with minimal skill and effort ... I'm saying it shouod be possible to solo something that can be operated solo. I remember chromosome when vehicles were free and I had great fun soloing everything since I'd had plenty of experience and tactics gained from E3 where I maxed out the Surya before getting bored of the god-mode and skilling swarms ... at which time there were very few Sagaris' I couldn't solo with a lot of effort and skill. I don't want to "give everyfuckingidiot the chance to kill an expenisve vehicle on ther own with minimum SP investment" ... but when around 12 of my 14 mil sp is invested in my AV fitting, I should be able to dominate any of these numbers I've seen here of 3 mil sp or 7-8 mil sp vehicles ... plus value is irrelevant ... it's an arbitrary number assigned by CCP ... if you think it's too much ask for them to consider changing it ... fact of the matter is, I can die 5 times in a 200,000 isk AV suit to enemy infantry before I even fire a shot at a vehicle worth a million isk ... so cost isn't a factor. "What happens if the HAV has been filled up? 2 extra gunners, does the tank/resistances/speed/damage output etc change at all? if nothing does change then why fill up the extra seats? would pilot suits stack so that if i did fill the seats then i would get more tank/resistances/speed/ damage output etc because again if not why would i bother?" Basically YES ... that's exactly what I'm talking about ... vehicles operating with teamwork should take teamwork to defeat ... somehow, someway, whether it's as crude as a raw hp buff for filled seats ... or the ideas I've made a seperate thread about here ... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1182471
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 350	Posted - 2013.08.16 16:53:00 - [10] - Quote I give up ... you write a lot ... and most of it is nonesense. Firstly it DOESN'T take more than one infantry dude to kill another infantry player ... ALL infantry players can be beaten by lesser sp invested higher skilled gungame players in lower value suits ... why should a single chosen path be any different ? There wouldn't be a choice as that path would be the only viable one. Vehicles do change the game ... they are a "force multiplier" as someone quoted ... no other specialisation gets unlimited ammo and more than 5 times the ehp of anything else and enough speed to run away from the frontline faster than the frontline can move ... as people have said before in relation to AV (it might not have been you) how many crutches do you need ? Now you're telling me what I want ... I needn't bother making my own opinions if you're going to give them to me ! ... Who said basic AV vs basic vehicles "won't need a clip to kill it" ... I say it should be capable of killing it in the same way a basic scout is capable of killing a basic heavy if the scout knows what he's doing. "What does that mean when its proto AV vs a basic tank?" ... it means basic vehicles get shredded by proto AV in the same way basic infantry get shredded by proto infantry ... what special needs requirements do you have to want it any different, just because you chose a particular skill path ? "according to your rules all proto vehicles should be able to be easily solo'd by 1 person" ... please tell the class where I've said easily in any of my posts ? All of that 12 mil sp is invested in my AV fit, as an AV specialist I need a sidearm to defend myself against infantry I come across on my way to attack vehicles and from those gunners that jump out of them ... I also need armor and shields and modules and electronics and engineering and profile dampening and every other advantage I need to stay alive while I'm hunting vehicles ... you can't say "Yeah but you've only invested 2 mil in swarms!" cos a character with just 2 mil sp wouldn't be able to fire his proto swarms even if he could fit them on his militia dropsuit, never mind any modules or a sidearm. The simple fact that you've got 17 mil sp with nothing invested in infantry skills stands testiment to how "easy mode" HAVs are ! ... how often do you not top 3 the leaderboard with 1,500+ wp ? ... just because there is multiple proto AV every match now only shows that people have had to adapt to the increased number of HAVs being fielded in every pub battle. Your 17 mil sp is also useful for lolLLAVs and any other vehicle you use, so saying I can run n gun with my skills counts for nothing when you can murder taxi n fly to rooftops to militia snipe or do what you want with other vehicles. Do you not think your vehicles should be an option ... is it not your own fault you invested ALL you sp into vehicles ... this is an FPS after all ! I'm not aware of this Forge Gun suit you speak of ... so far as I'm aware the Forge Gun is a Heavy weapon used by the Heavy suit class ... as is the HMG ! ... or have I got that wrong ? I don't die 5 times in my proto suits ... I might in my 50,000 isk suits which is still generally a loss as hunting a properly driven HAV can lead to very limited gungame and very low wp gains and even in this state sometimes ends with the vehicles survival ... but those are the good HAV drivers that don't come on here whining ! Again with the random number generator ... how do you get less than 10 mil sp across 3 AV players ... that would be 3.3 mil sp each ! and where does the 30 mil for the HAV come from ... you said yourself you have one with only 17 mil invested ! Yes you can skill them up and use them for yourself ... when you're gunning in another vehicle ... otherwise they'd just be more vehicle skills making them more powerful for solo use ... I don't know if the FC type bonuses would only work in vehicles ... I'm not a lead designer at CCP ... since you bring it up I guess they could be applied to squad support roles such as increasing your squads damage or defenses when your squad leader assigns "squad booster" role to someone invested in these skills ... why not ... I'm just proposing that there ba a set of skills that mean the gunner has a bearing on the effectiveness of the vehicle other than just sitting there for assist points and maybe firing if you're lucky. Again " eazy to take out " ... never have I said they should be easy ... I haven't even discussed how easy they should be ... what I'm saying is it should be possible ... not impossible ! "you cant ask your gunner to skill up armor to lvl5" ... you're not ... the bonuses I've talked about have no bearing on what you can fit to your vehicle ... they would only have an effect on the effectiveness of those modules ... ie. your gunner has "vehicle armor subsystems" skill to level 5 so your current fitting whatever it is gets 25% bonus to damage resist modules, or active armor reps or whatever CCP wants to do with these skills. Then you can kick that gunner out who only has lvl 1 skill so the other guy with level 4 skill can jump in and improve your vehicle more. "it means vehicles would be used alot less and all that SP counts for nothing" ... I think he's finally catching on ! "even with 25+mil into vehicles it counts for nothing againt a 5mil player" ... welcome to New Eden where skill and tactics trump both isk and sp investments !