The problem is, either side refuses to give ground and talk about the weapon.

Its either "MD are OP, nerf'em!"

Or "MD takes skill and is UP, buff it! Also stfu AR scrub!"

Neither side is gonna be happy if we don't talk it out.

Hit detection/Aiming is broken.

An AOE weapon is most popular. Who'd a thunk it?

Wait for Hit Detection to be fixed.

Sincere question:

Did you take ARs into a compound, I.e. a CQC area?

Sincere question:

Did you take ARs into a compound, I.e. a CQC area?

I used, Imperial SR, Carthums SR, and SMG. Did well (whether I lived or died) with all of them vs anyone not using a Mass Driver.

I thought the AR was supposed to be a close range rifle?

it is if youre good at hip firing

Let me rephrase the question:

Did you take mid-range weaponry into a short range confrontation?

It doesn't matter if it's hip fire or not. The AR is a Gallente Plasma Rifle that's supposed to be a close range weapon. It's not supposed to be any more than that, not even a short-to-mid range weapon. The Minmatar Combat Rifle is the short-to-mid range rifle.

It is *supposed* to be a close range weapon, but it isn't. Right now its range is barely less than the scrambler rifles.
Don't forget that regardless of its technology, it's also still a rifle. Rifles are, by design, extended range.

IMO the only rebalance the MD demonstrates a need for, is a buff to the shotgun and perhaps the breach AR. Then we'd start to see an oppropriate balance between close and mid range weaponry.

lol, we had our dedicated Mass Driver Fiddle, and danny from synergy was m/ding part time. And you went 0/14 the 2nd game, it stuck out or i'd tell you your first match as well I have the pic somewhere. GG.

You come off very smug.

Whose to say that people who arent the best at aiming, or twich reflexes (perhaps older folks not up to par with the younger generationn) shouldnt have weapons that will make the game more enjoyable for them? Just because someone is not skillful with an AR type weapon doesnt mean they are a bad player. Maybe in your limited scope they are. Those players may be great thinkers, tankers, supporters, tacticians, hackers, pilots, defenders... just bad at tracking bunny hopping strafing players.

One might give your post some more credit if you werent so condescending.

-1

You come off very smug.

Whose to say that people who arent the best at aiming, or twich reflexes (perhaps older folks not up to par with the younger generationn) shouldnt have weapons that will make the game more enjoyable for them? Just because someone is not skillful with an AR type weapon doesnt mean they are a bad player. Maybe in your limited scope they are. Those players may be great thinkers, tankers, supporters, tacticians, hackers, pilots, defenders... just bad at tracking bunny hopping strafing players.

One might give your post some more credit if you werent so condescending.

-1

And yet nothing will be done about forge abuse. You know in that match they had 2 or 3 forges on the tower that can only be reached by dropship, which because they are utter **** noone else can get up there after thee.first couple minutes.

Stupid question: wouldn't MD users be completely defenseless against one or two decent snipers?

Stupid question: wouldn't MD users be completely defenseless against one or two decent snipers?

Stupid question: wouldn't MD users be completely defenseless against one or two decent snipers?

1st match we got killed up top by the m/d spam from soul on top.

2nd match we got up top and had one forger (Himiko reigning down with the kamehameha), and doc holiday managed to get up their later in the match cause we killed each other 1ce.

3rd match our forger d/ced and we played with 15 for the whole match, no forger up top.

I'd love it if the splash radius was drastically reduced, as vehicles are big enough that you can hit them fine, and infantry would take a absolute direct impact to kill, instead of splashing people to death.

just my opinion though.

Not sure how to help the mass driver. But I know if you were getting 1-2 on you the hole game danny and fiddle must have been in quite the sync.

Oh yeah, because wasting 2 infantry positions on snipers INSIDE the compound is a great idea.

Oh yeah, because wasting 2 infantry positions on snipers INSIDE the compound is a great idea.

I think the ScR needs more range rather than giving the AR less. I'm mostly talking about optimal ranges here. The around 40m optimal the AR has is probably fine, but the ScR needs to have like 70-80m optimal imo.


I think the Breach AR might be changed entirely when the Rail Rifle comes out, if they even keep it in the game. The Breach AR is supposed to act somewhat like the Rail Rifle, so in reality it's supposed to be a long range slow firing weapon.

I don't see how this is relevant to the topic.

More of a waste than constantly and ineffectively throwing bodies at the enemy to be repeatedly slaughtered?

Maybe that's the problem?

If the entire enemy team is running MDs, then obviously nobody is left to counter-snipe, and they'd be like fish in a barrell for one or two decent snipers on your team which should, in turn, force them to alter thier tactics, shouldn't it?

(I'm not trying to be facetious or anything, I really am curious about this and why it wouldn't be a reasonable counter tactic in this situation)

Maybe that's the problem?

If the entire enemy team is running MDs, then obviously nobody is left to counter-snipe, and they'd be like fish in a barrell for one or two decent snipers on your team which should, in turn, force them to alter thier tactics, shouldn't it?

(I'm not trying to be facetious or anything, I really am curious about this and why it wouldn't be a reasonable counter tactic in this situation)

Okay, this is the second time i've had to say this in this thread:

You cannot fix broken mechanics by in-game means. The type of imbalance here needs to be fixed by CCP actually coding it.

I'm pretty sure most teams in PC already run at least 1 sniper most of the time.

I'm not sure how you would want him to clear out the compound completely. If you didn't notice there's a lot of cover in the compound.

Except the only broken mechanics are hit detection and aim assist. Once those are fixed, MD situations you are seeing right now will not be viable anymore.

I played a PC match yesterday. And wow, I got destroyed the second match. I'm willing to be that the majority of you, who think the Mass driver is in a good place right now, probably play Instant battle 99% of the time, like me. The problem here is that the random players (and also thanks to 400wp debacle) are pretty terrible and the mass driver is easy to ignore. I'm an Amarr Assault and specced into amarr ****, so to me, the mass driver was no more different than the Assault rifle. Just like some people are terrible with ARs, some people are terrible with Mass Drivers. Some people are really good with ARs, some people are good with Mass Drivers.

That's what I USED to think. Until **** hit the fan.

I played my first couple of competitive matches yesterday. The first game, I hardly died to mass drivers, died a few times to them but I felt all my deaths during the first match was fair. I think I went 14 kills and 7 or 9 deaths or something against Teamplayers.

Then the second match started and WTF.... Nearly every person I personally ran into had Mass Drivers and I must have died 10 or 12 times to Mass Drivers alone. This DEFINITELY put Mass Drivers on my radar. These things were inescapable. So I began thinking....


Casual vs Competitive (READ: kids who can't aim vs talented shooters)

The Mass driver cannot exist as it currently. No matter how you balance the weapon, it will either ruin competitive matches, or it will cease to become relevant at all even in casual matches. You see, when a competitive player uses non-Area of effect weapons (ARS, SMG, Semi AUTO rifles) against another, there are two competitions going on in the duel

1) Who can deal the most damage, the fastest
2) Who can avoid the most damage

When you give one of these very skilled players a Mass Driver, guess what happens? He can't miss. His helpless opponent cannot dodge, strafe, run for cover at all. He has essentially denied the helpless man the "2) Who can avoid the most damage" rule of this game. ALSO, he has crippled the helpless man's ability to just "stand his ground" and out DPS the Mass Driver because the MD jerks his screen around and clouds his vision with smoke. There is no reason to use any other weapon in a competitive match, (actually I take that back there needs to be a Forge gun sniping objectives). I try and go the High DPS route with my proficiency lvl 5, 2 cmplx dmg mods, charge shot imperial scrambler rifle, but all the DPS is meaningless in a duel with Mass Drivers. I could kill other suits/guns just fine if I got a bead on my opponent fast enough. But those MDs were impossible.

B-B-But Mass Drivers Takes Skill!

If you think the Mass Driver takes a lot of skill to master, then you are probably really bad at aiming and shooting. Play instant battle and you will see how terrible Mass Driver users are. Play PC and see how devastating Mass Drivers are.

The difference is that the MDs allow bad players (who would have terrible aiming) to, thanks to splash damage, have "decent" aiming. These bad players can now complete with ARs and other weapons in casual public matches.

on the other hand...

MDs allow skilled players (who can aim well consistently) to have flawless aiming. Because of the splash, the damage per splash, the smoke, and the screen displacement... the MD will out DPS anything mid/close-mid-mid/long (AKA AR territory) range.

So you still think the MD takes skill? Because of the projectile and time of flight? That's okay. Not trying to offend you or anything, but if you think an "easy-mode-splash-damage-black-hole-for-armor-instakiller" takes skill, if it took you weeks to master the MDs trajectory....

Conclusion

...then you are a bad player.

Did I say they had to clear out the compound completely? No, I didn't.

Only that they do enough damage to force your opponents to change their tactics, then they might not ALL be running MDs, and then your infantry guys might have a chance.

1st match we got killed up top by the m/d spam from soul on top.

2nd match we got up top and had one forger (Himiko reigning down with the kamehameha), and doc holiday managed to get up their later in the match cause we killed each other 1ce.

3rd match our forger d/ced and we played with 15 for the whole match, no forger up top.

I'd love it if the splash radius was drastically reduced, as vehicles are big enough that you can hit them fine, and infantry would take a absolute direct impact to kill, instead of splashing people to death.

just my opinion though.

Not sure how to help the mass driver. But I know if you were getting 1-2 on you the hole game danny and fiddle must have been in quite the sync.

Snipers have a limited view point. They cannot easily traverse the compound in order to get an angle on MD users who are constantly moving, assaulting objectives.

The enemy team DID have (a) snipers and forge gunners. So it's not like any of our snipers would have been invulnerable.

You are oversimplifying.

Did I say they had to clear out the compound completely? No, I didn't.

Only that they do enough damage to force your opponents to change their tactics, then they might not ALL be running MDs, and then your infantry guys might have a chance.

I fail to see how 1 sniper would make a team switch to something else instead of Mass Drivers. Last I checked any other weapon besides the Sniper are just as defenceless against the sniper.

If you did manage to get a sniper into a position where he could dominate key areas of the compound, I'm sure the other team would have their own sniper countersniping him, or if that's impossible send someone else out to take care of the sniper, while the rest of the team keep doing what they're doing inside the compound.

"Fail to see..." or "refuse to see..."?

One mass driver, not so bad. Two mass drivers, pretty annoying. Three or more in one area and it's a death trap. By itself the weapon isn't that bad and be countered. In large numbers, yes it is horrible.

Overall this game has a problem with "spam" tactics.

So what's the difference between you being stomped by point and shoot ARs, and you being stomped by MD users? Especially when the AR has more than double the amount of usage the MD gets?

competitive DUST 514 in a nutshell

MD by itself isnt a problem as this dude said its when its spammed it becomes a problem just like any other weapon in the game or equipment (lookin at u uplinks) or nades

game promotes spam tactics

I played a PC match yesterday. And wow, I got destroyed the second match. I'm willing to be that the majority of you, who think the Mass driver is in a good place right now, probably play Instant battle 99% of the time, like me. The problem here is that the random players (and also thanks to 400wp debacle) are pretty terrible and the mass driver is easy to ignore. I'm an Amarr Assault and specced into amarr ****, so to me, the mass driver was no more different than the Assault rifle. Just like some people are terrible with ARs, some people are terrible with Mass Drivers. Some people are really good with ARs, some people are good with Mass Drivers.

That's what I USED to think. Until **** hit the fan.

I played my first couple of competitive matches yesterday. The first game, I hardly died to mass drivers, died a few times to them but I felt all my deaths during the first match was fair. I think I went 14 kills and 7 or 9 deaths or something against Teamplayers.

Then the second match started and WTF.... Nearly every person I personally ran into had Mass Drivers and I must have died 10 or 12 times to Mass Drivers alone. This DEFINITELY put Mass Drivers on my radar. These things were inescapable. So I began thinking....


Casual vs Competitive (READ: kids who can't aim vs talented shooters)

The Mass driver cannot exist as it currently. No matter how you balance the weapon, it will either ruin competitive matches, or it will cease to become relevant at all even in casual matches. You see, when a competitive player uses non-Area of effect weapons (ARS, SMG, Semi AUTO rifles) against another, there are two competitions going on in the duel

1) Who can deal the most damage, the fastest
2) Who can avoid the most damage

When you give one of these very skilled players a Mass Driver, guess what happens? He can't miss. His helpless opponent cannot dodge, strafe, run for cover at all. He has essentially denied the helpless man the "2) Who can avoid the most damage" rule of this game. ALSO, he has crippled the helpless man's ability to just "stand his ground" and out DPS the Mass Driver because the MD jerks his screen around and clouds his vision with smoke. There is no reason to use any other weapon in a competitive match, (actually I take that back there needs to be a Forge gun sniping objectives). I try and go the High DPS route with my proficiency lvl 5, 2 cmplx dmg mods, charge shot imperial scrambler rifle, but all the DPS is meaningless in a duel with Mass Drivers. I could kill other suits/guns just fine if I got a bead on my opponent fast enough. But those MDs were impossible.

B-B-But Mass Drivers Takes Skill!

If you think the Mass Driver takes a lot of skill to master, then you are probably really bad at aiming and shooting. Play instant battle and you will see how terrible Mass Driver users are. Play PC and see how devastating Mass Drivers are.

The difference is that the MDs allow bad players (who would have terrible aiming) to, thanks to splash damage, have "decent" aiming. These bad players can now complete with ARs and other weapons in casual public matches.

on the other hand...

MDs allow skilled players (who can aim well consistently) to have flawless aiming. Because of the splash, the damage per splash, the smoke, and the screen displacement... the MD will out DPS anything mid/close-mid-mid/long (AKA AR territory) range.

So you still think the MD takes skill? Because of the projectile and time of flight? That's okay. Not trying to offend you or anything, but if you think an "easy-mode-splash-damage-black-hole-for-armor-instakiller" takes skill, if it took you weeks to master the MDs trajectory....

Conclusion

...then you are a bad player.

It doesn't matter if it's hip fire or not. The AR is a Gallente Plasma Rifle that's supposed to be a close range weapon. It's not supposed to be any more than that, not even a short-to-mid range weapon. The Minmatar Combat Rifle is the short-to-mid range rifle.

So what's the difference between you being stomped by point and shoot ARs, and you being stomped by MD users? Especially when the AR has more than double the amount of usage the MD gets?

I think the biggest aspect of this whole issue that only serves to exacerbate the Mass Driver's prevalence is the really shabby hit detection. This is not as bad in pub matches, but PC matches still to this day are plagued by bad frame rates and abysmal hit detection.

I know this for a fact because I've been trying to collect some video evidence from different guns to really show how bad it is. The biggest issue is with single shot weapons like the TAC AR, Shotgun, Imperial ScR, and Sniper Rifles. It seems like only 1/3 to 1/2 of shots will ever actually register against people. I've had so many cases where I see the bullet hit, see the blue shield flash, crosshairs confirms the hit, even HEAR the hit sound, and yet there is 0 damage done to the person. It's most noticeable on single shot guns because these guns put accuracy of that one shot above everything so you immediately notice when a good shot did not register, and when the game is refusing to register those crucial shots it becomes incredibly frustrating to deal with.

Now multiply this times your rapid-fire weapons like ScR, AR, SMG, HMG, etc. This in effect creates an atmosphere where it comes down to killing players as effectively and assuredly as possible. This is where the Mass Driver steps in. Don't get me wrong, the MD is not the only gun at fault here nor is it something we should be necessarily blaming on the MD. Flaylocks, Core Locus, MDs, all these ways of killing people only require you land your projectile in the general area of the player which increases your chance to hit tenfold. The issues MDs were having pre-1.2 are now equivalent to what most hitscan weapons now seem to be having.

So, my suggestion is CCP really needs to get down on the hit detection issues before proceeding onto weapon balance. I'm not sure what's going on, but this game can't keep going on like this if CCP actually intends for people to take their "tournaments" or whatever seriously. In fact, the tournament will probably show which corps are willing to abuse broken mechanics the most, and which corp is best at abusing said mechanics.

The problem is that if you make weapons for the not so skilled players so that they can do almost as good as the skilled players, then the skilled players will just use the weapon and completely dominate with it.

>implying SMG are not short range weapons
>implying compounds are CQC only confrontations

This isn't even about the roles weapons fill.

This is about the fundamental mechanics behind the Mass Driver that ruins competitive gameplay. You cannot fix the mass drivers bad mechanics with shotguns and SMGs.

couldn't you say that about the ar since day one?

Those "spam tactics" are perpetuated because explosions and area of effect are way too effective in this game. I'm sure if everyone was spamming ARs in PCs people wouldn't be complaining nearly as much because it still requires you to aim, shoot, and pray the bullet registers. The MD doesn't seem to have the those problems nearly as much.

And don't even start on uplinks. I've already created several posts about that to no avail.

Since when was the AR made for the less skilled ones?

Big Issues:
1. Hit detection for hit scan weapons in CQC needs to be addressed for sure, its a serious issue.
2. Explosive damage fall off needs to be reviewed, I know it has some sort of damage fall off mechanic in place but its not right atm, its too high atm and encourages explosive use over all else.
3. Flux grenades need to be reevaluated, 7.2m and 1800 damage means you will lose all of your shields in an unavoidable 7.2m radius, in a game with such high TTKs, having insta kill weapons with 7.2m of blast radius, carrying 3 at a time and having an essentially infinite supply from proto nanohives is BAD for gameplay.
4. Locus grenades need to reevaluated as well, 7.2m blast radius and some sort of strange bonus to armor that can cause hits of up to 900-1000 damage from a single grenade, something is very wrong there, esp for a nade with 7.2m of blast radius.
5. Explosives increase in blast radius and damage, cause a huge rift in power from std to proto, that power gap needs to be addressed and tightened. Explosives should increase in power or increase in radius but not both. This applies for both explosive weapons and grenades.

the ar has a third skill to increase effectiveness. it hits hardest at alpha volley, which makes it stronger than any hmg. it's got range out to FOREVER.

a free ar is better than most maxed out weapons. try doing the math. take into account reload times. take into account how an hmg doesn't even do full damage until 1.5 seconds into it's fire-animation. take into account how useless a laser rifle is. take into account how useless a sniper rifle is (unless you're a mile from the fight). take into account that the only other usable weapon is the one that you're qqing about on the forums.

You and I are pretty much on the same page. I've created several posts about most of those points throughout the feedback forum. The last point I'd like to add is some sort of deterrent to equipment spam. My suggestion to that is to change it so that all equipment has a hard cap of 3 active units per person, and that any new equipment laid down would destroy the first accordingly. This is to prevent the insane uplink/repping nanohive spam on rooftops that every PC match comes down to.

I've become so bored with trying to argue tactics with my corp because it's all the same. Every PC match comes down to two things: (a) get the high ground, (b) spam uplinks. That's the big secret to winning the "strategy" side of PC. After that it just comes down to who can spam AoE weapons the best to clear out the enemy.

Last I checked it had a 40m optimal range, not infinite range.

Last I checked you had to hit your enemy to damage him.

You and I are pretty much on the same page. I've created several posts about most of those points throughout the feedback forum. The last point I'd like to add is some sort of deterrent to equipment spam. My suggestion to that is to change it so that all equipment has a hard cap of 3 active units per person, and that any new equipment laid down would destroy the first accordingly. This is to prevent the insane uplink/repping nanohive spam on rooftops that every PC match comes down to.

I've become so bored with trying to argue tactics with my corp because it's all the same. Every PC match comes down to two things: (a) get the high ground, (b) spam uplinks. That's the big secret to winning the "strategy" side of PC. After that it just comes down to who can spam AoE weapons the best to clear out the enemy.

last i checked geks will hit you effectively out to 70m. which pretty much makes me think you didn't check anything.

last i checked the splash damage i'm hiting for is 140. what's that, like 5 bullets from a gek? how may rounds a minute do you fire? somebody get me an abacus.

last i checked geks will hit you effectively out to 70m. which pretty much makes me think you didn't check anything.

last i checked the splash damage i'm hiting for is 140. what's that, like 5 bullets from a gek? how may rounds a minute do you fire? somebody get me an abacus.

Reread my OP, specifically the "Casual vs Competitive" part.

GEK's literally do 2 dmg per bullet at 70m. And at 70m, your accuracy rating is going to be low as ****.

Are you even for real?

The problem is, either side refuses to give ground and talk about the weapon.

Its either "MD are OP, nerf'em!"

Or "MD takes skill and is UP, buff it! Also stfu AR scrub!"

Neither side is gonna be happy if we don't talk it out.

If you read the post, this issue is primarily most prevalent in Planetary Conquest battles where corps are using the most effective tactics to win, that being the MD. At that level, you typically don't get "stomped" by ARs because you have time to duck, dodge, and get behind cover to avoid them. You don't get that luxury with an MD in closer-quarters combat.

Until it gets fixed, my main counter-tactic is to literally bear hug MD users while gunning them. That way if I die they at least have a chance to blow themselves or their teammates up with me. That's what we really need: more people forcing MD users to be aware just how stupid their own splash damage is.

I have to say that after reading this post, PC doesn't sound like a very fun game play experience.... imagining the scenarios that are described in this thread makes me enjoy pub matches all the more where I run across a variety of weapons and play styles..... given the competitive nature it seems like having balance in this game mode is going to be very hard to achieve.

I was of the mind that MD's are fine, but then again I've never experienced an entire co-ordinated squad of them in CQC.

So, there are no effective counters other than engaging attempting to engage in CQC? A squad or two of LR users or snipers would not help clear out the compound (due to cover?). What about distance weapons with some splash damage such as a few rail tanks?

Let me get this straight.

This is your thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101179&find=unread
You main either a scrambler rifle or sniper rifle.
You couldn't deal with mass drivers.
And you think the problem is on their end.

Yeah i'm pretty bad.

You've single handedly won this argument with your impeccable logic and apparent flawless reading comprehension.

I think the Mass Driver is fine where it is. Not because "Get gud scrub" or "It is hard to use". Because this game needs diversity. If CCP Nerfs this gun into uselessness, that's one more gun that no-one uses anymore. It will all continue to fall into the nerf basket until every gun fires flowers at people.


The Mass Driver is an area denial weapon, So it will clear out places and keep people from getting to them. It shouldn't be touched. Most people hate it because they get killed by it multiple times. That and the fact that some people know how to make it such a beast weapon. A MD with fluxes and damage mods are a sure killer, as it should be.

I wouldn't be too upset if it got a nerf (As in it is less powerful but is still very effective) but that's still the problem. It would still be effective. That's what the MD is, effective. People cry ITS OP because it's effective at what it does, and won't stop crying until it becomes ineffective.


IDK. There isn't a nerf that can satisfy both sides of it. The MDers will be mad if it gets nerfed into hell, the Non- MD users will be mad if it can still be very effective.

The MD really isn't OP. Just another weapon that can be used usefully besides the normal pot of weapons. Just that people hate diversity.

Hit detection/Aiming is broken.

An AOE weapon is most popular. Who'd a thunk it?

Wait for Hit Detection to be fixed.

This isn't a diversity issue. CCP can still come up with a lot of new weapons, in fact, the is a thread that CCP Wolfman started for generating ideas for new weapons.

The issue i'm talking about stems from a competitive gameplay level. Would damage drop off be so bad? You would still be able to dish out the same DPS that MDs are getting now, but only if they can shoot with enough precision and foresight to land a shot right next to you.

Currently, this weapon's "area denial" effect is the same type of area denial every other blatantly overpowered weapon in the past has (TAC, Viziam, Contact Nades, Core Flaylocks). Currently, it's a killer's weapon, not a crowd control weapon.

Except the Mass Driver doesn't do too much damage or anything like that... the thing that makes the Mass Driver overpowered in a skilled players hands is it's too easy to use, too easy to have 3-4 guys spam splash damage with 99% accuracy .

Adjustments need to be made for the sake of competitive gaming, if CCP still wants this game to be competitive.

There really isn't a good counter to a team of TP .

@GAYLOCK Steve

I thought we already established you as "irrelevant", therefore nothing you say matters.

It's pretty much indisputable that the Mass Driver is the easy, new-to-first-person-shooters, weapon.

Here fixed that for you. Im not going to say the MD is fine or doesnt need further tweaking. But I will say that if your basis for your argument is because TP spammed MD in a PC and beat your side, that is not enough of a case my friend.

Lets say you completely removed Mass Drivers from the game.

You dont think TP will find another weapon to (ab)use to get the W?

They could come out with 16 Laser rifles/Nova Knives and figure out a way to shut down other teams. They are just that good together.

- Nerf TP, not the weapon because TP spammed it.

- Collect more data and prove a point as to why the MD needs nerfing. CCP does this already.

- Balance weapons for BOTH pub matches and PC. While I agree that weapon balancing should take PC battles into effect, the majority of the player base is not participating, nor has any desire to participate in PC. It was supposed to be the End Game, but it simply is not. The mechanics behind it are borked and weird and only the top elite corps have any chance at being "successful" there and even they will admit the success is not all that grand, yet.

Lol. I saw laser rifles and nova knives and stop reading. It is extremely obvious that does 2 weapons require more skill then a MD.So PC will be bbasically explosives again, MD and Core locs.

Here fixed that for you. Im not going to say the MD is fine or doesnt need further tweaking. But I will say that if your basis for your argument is because TP spammed MD in a PC and beat your side, that is not enough of a case my friend.

Lets say you completely removed Mass Drivers from the game.

You dont think TP will find another weapon to (ab)use to get the W?

They could come out with 16 Laser rifles/Nova Knives and figure out a way to shut down other teams. They are just that good together.

- Nerf TP, not the weapon because TP spammed it.

- Collect more data and prove a point as to why the MD needs nerfing. CCP does this already.

- Balance weapons for BOTH pub matches and PC. While I agree that weapon balancing should take PC battles into effect, the majority of the player base is not participating, nor has any desire to participate in PC. It was supposed to be the End Game, but it simply is not. The mechanics behind it are borked and weird and only the top elite corps have any chance at being "successful" there and even they will admit the success is not all that grand, yet.

/facepalm... it was an exaggerated example, pick any weapon you want and put it in place. you failure.

As for data, you need to talk to any competitive player that participates in PC. Even Mass Driver users who've skilled into it's proficiency say it needs tweaking. I probably shouldn't have mentioned the Teamplayers at all, because it's pretty irrelevant to the argument. I suppose I was just caught up in telling a story. Though it is interesting to mention how, during the first match, it was a pretty close game.

And guess what?

Very minimal MD spam. I think they had like 1 or 2 guys up in the catwalks total. The second match, we would have been redlined if it weren't for uplink spam.

And guess what? MD spam was everywhere.

I think you are missing the big picture I am trying to paint fo ryou. GO back in history.. how many weapons have people cried for nerfs? Before PC, during and After? The list is endless. The difference now, instead of 8v8 corp battles and pubs to slowly draw attention to the FOTM weapons, we now have PC. A direct proving ground where everyone will use any weapon they can to gain the W.

There will ALWAYS be a FOTM weapon. Until the day CCP decides to go the route of other FPS shooters and remove the diversity. Thats what diversity is all about. Who can come up with the latest and greatest way to skill up their merc, use equipment, and terrain to get the W. If you do not adapt yourself and use something to counter, or use the same FOTM weapon, these nerf threads will never end.

Tweak this, tweak that, go right ahead and tweak/nerf/buff all day long. These threads will never go away because teams that use teamwork, coordination, strategy and the most useful weapons will always come out on top in PC. It is the quintessential min/max game mode. If you are waiting patiently for your weapon of choice to become relevant in PC you will be waiting a very long time. If you have the patience, great. If you want to compete, adapt anyway that you can.. To say there is no counter to MD spam is to lie to yourself. Get better.

I think you are missing the big picture I am trying to paint fo ryou. GO back in history.. how many weapons have people cried for nerfs? Before PC, during and After? The list is endless. The difference now, instead of 8v8 corp battles and pubs to slowly draw attention to the FOTM weapons, we now have PC. A direct proving ground where everyone will use any weapon they can to gain the W.

There will ALWAYS be a FOTM weapon. Until the day CCP decides to go the route of other FPS shooters and remove the diversity. Thats what diversity is all about. Who can come up with the latest and greatest way to skill up their merc, use equipment, and terrain to get the W. If you do not adapt yourself and use something to counter, or use the same FOTM weapon, these nerf threads will never end.

Tweak this, tweak that, go right ahead and tweak/nerf/buff all day long. These threads will never go away because teams that use teamwork, coordination, strategy and the most useful weapons will always come out on top in PC. It is the quintessential min/max game mode. If you are waiting patiently for your weapon of choice to become relevant in PC you will be waiting a very long time. If you have the patience, great. If you want to compete, adapt anyway that you can.. To say there is no counter to MD spam is to lie to yourself. Get better.

I don't know what you are talking about. Nobody in the Massholes community (we have a channel) is saying it's UP. Infact, most of us agree that a small nerf to the splash radius is needed.

Friendly fire is the answer. As to why the developer continue to want to create a care bear game is beyond me, but as long as explosives can be spammed on top of groups of blues that are actually engaged in a gun battles this will happen. Add friendly fire and mass drivers will decrease, when your killing three blues for every one red people will see what situations are appropriate for its use and will diminish them when not appropriate.

I played a PC match yesterday. And wow, I got destroyed the second match. I'm willing to be that the majority of you, who think the Mass driver is in a good place right now, probably play Instant battle 99% of the time, like me. The problem here is that the random players (and also thanks to 400wp debacle) are pretty terrible and the mass driver is easy to ignore. I'm an Amarr Assault and specced into amarr ****, so to me, the mass driver was no more different than the Assault rifle. Just like some people are terrible with ARs, some people are terrible with Mass Drivers. Some people are really good with ARs, some people are good with Mass Drivers.

That's what I USED to think. Until **** hit the fan.

I played my first couple of competitive matches yesterday. The first game, I hardly died to mass drivers, died a few times to them but I felt all my deaths during the first match was fair. I think I went 14 kills and 7 or 9 deaths or something against Teamplayers.

Then the second match started and WTF.... Nearly every person I personally ran into had Mass Drivers and I must have died 10 or 12 times to Mass Drivers alone. This DEFINITELY put Mass Drivers on my radar. These things were inescapable. So I began thinking....
.

Friendly fire is the answer. As to why the developer continue to want to create a care bear game is beyond me, but as long as explosives can be spammed on top of groups of blues that are actually engaged in a gun battles this will happen. Add friendly fire and mass drivers will decrease, when your killing three blues for every one red people will see what situations are appropriate for its use and will diminish them when not appropriate.

The second match was one sided. Danny did a great job. I didn't do so well, but my squad was able to accomplish it's objective. That was the TWO mass driver users. TWO. Exmaple was all up on it last night too... Shotgun in an open field against MD... what do you expect? There are ways that you can deal with TWO mass drivers... You just aren't doing them.

Most of the time I saw you in those matches, you were oblivious... You are going to die a lot like that. I am all for complaiing about PC balance, but there are so many people on your team more qualified to do such things.

You run slow suits and put yourself out of position... You deserve every death you got. I've never seen you before in any of the IE/AE exile matches, and you are going to come in here and complain about TWO mass drivers?

Not true... PC has friendly fire and suffers explosive spam much worse than pubs do.

Friendly fire in pubs will destroy this game, the amount of griefing that would spawn from intentional team killing is a sure fire way to make sure this game dies in a heartbeat.

I'm not going to argue with you about PC balance discussion qualifications. I've already stated that those two matches where the first competitive games i've played in months. So i'm going to be a little behind on current PC strategies and tactics.

Go ahead and take what I say with a grain of salt if you must.

These are just my observations, you guys make of it what you will.

Btw ff in public matches is not a new concept is in most of the better games and won't blow people's minds and ruin the game. What's the deal I thought TP was started as a Socom clan? FF will ruin the game GTFO newb.

I don't think you know what you are talking about


You're telling me that we need diversity, yet at the same time you submit to the fact that FOTM exist. THEN you tell me to get better because you somehow think you know how to counter MD spam with teamwork.


Yeah, sure.

I don't know anything about Socom, I joined TP on Dust. But I know this isn't Socom.

The amount of griefing you would see in a F2P game with team killing enabled? You cannot tell me this game wouldn't be riddled with griefing, people just happy as can be to destroy other people's proto suits just cause they can.

Its not a new concept, and almost no games adopt it... that should tell you enough right there.

Name an FPS where FOTM does not exist? Something has to be better than the next for certain situations otherwise we might as well go play checkers. The most successful people tend to use the best weapons for those circumstances. The people who cry about it are those who failed to do the same. See every FPS in the history of gaming as an example.

Is this your first time at the rodeo son? Perhaps you dont know what you are talking about... thats cool, nobody is perfect. :)

MD are OP we need that nerf back in uprising 1.0.

MD are OP we need that nerf back in uprising 1.0.

MD are OP we need remove it completely from the game, like in uprising 1.0.

Do you mind elaborating?

Sorry let me explain how it was not really a nerf , but more like a weapon that actually takes skill to use when uprising came out the blast radius was dropped down to 3.6 in the regular variants not sure about the assaults MDs, but anyways with that in mind people though this thing was still in use and wanted to get easier kills and of course it takes little to no skill to use MD right now because of its blast radius, but back in chromosome the EXO had a 4.4 blast radius and if you get to lv 5 it comes around to 5.5 meter blast radius so you really don't have to hit your targets when they are moving. So when uprising came out people complained about its really small blast radius and hardly can get any kills with it so they have decided to bring back the MD to its original state like in chromosome. If they never changed the blast radius and kept it the same 3.6*1.25= 4.5 meter blast radius making it a more balanced weapon and of course making it more of a skill based \.

Edit: 5% to blast radius per level.

Do you mind elaborating?

I am sure you noticed how the gun was infrequently used in PC at that point. It was VERY ineffective from elevation due to the inability to track players due to projectile speed. Personally I specced into just about everything I could for my fit before I got MD proficiency up. I still used it, because I realized the practice potential and figured they would fix it sooner or later. But it was by no means "alright" or "good". There were very few players who kept the MDfaith during that period.

Ill mention again that it is strong against scouts... and should be. I think that might flavor your preception

Sorry let me explain how it was not really a nerf , but more like a weapon that actually takes skill to use when uprising came out the blast radius was dropped down to 3.6 in the regular variants not sure about the assaults MDs, but anyways with that in mind people though this thing was still in use and wanted to get easier kills and of course it takes little to no skill to use MD right now because of its blast radius, but back in chromosome the EXO had a 4.4 blast radius and if you get to lv 5 it comes around to 5.5 meter blast radius so you really don't have to hit your targets when they are moving. So when uprising came out people complained about its really small blast radius and hardly can get any kills with it so they have decided to bring back the MD to its original state like in chromosome. If they never changed the blast radius and kept it the same 3.6*1.25= 4.5 meter blast radius making it a more balanced weapon and of course making it more of a skill based \.

Edit: 5% to blast radius per level.

So what if projectile speed was increased along with damage drop off and/or slight blast radius decrease? Would that be acceptable?

My two cents.

In battles where MD actually claims most kills it's the assault MD that is used. That weapon is prolly on the OP side. Likewise it's the most skill independent MD as it is designed for wide AoE blindfire. You will also see that 'better corps' who traditionally go for OP stuff all flock to ASSAULT md.

Then we have regular MD. All the crying AR 'leet' players who score high KDR on boards inevitably try this and realize that they cant do as well with it, then go back to AR and cry about MD in general on the forums. The regular MD is the work horse of ppl who play with MD. Now it's prolly well balanced in the game.

Lastly breach MD. This thing is so broken (like breach SG) that no amount of skill will make up for it. No one is using it. It's def UP.

Why is the breach MD underpowered? I'm not trying to say it's not, the most common MDs I see are Freedoms and EXOs. I could imagine it's because of the small blast radius but i'm just curious.

if it still is aim knocking then that needs to be removed but i've fought other mass driver and have not had my aim knocked since before we moved to tranq, unless for some reason another mass driver is not effected by aim knock. all and all i dont believe it still aim knocks.

It is *supposed* to be a close range weapon, but it isn't. Right now its range is barely less than the scrambler rifles.
Don't forget that regardless of its technology, it's also still a rifle. Rifles are, by design, extended range.

IMO the only rebalance the MD demonstrates a need for, is a buff to the shotgun and perhaps the breach AR. Then we'd start to see an oppropriate balance between close and mid range weaponry.

I used, Imperial SR, Carthums SR, and SMG. Did well (whether I lived or died) with all of them vs anyone not using a Mass Driver.

Well, if you are implying that you are a mass driver user yourself, i'm going to guess you primarily use hipfire.

The screen jerking is very noticeable when aiming down your sights.

Oh ok. Well yea that needs to go. And yes I rarely ADS my MD.

The problem is they wont just adjust the splash down 1 meter and remove the aim knock, they will keep to their track record and totally trash the weapon.

TBH i don't like to get into balancing discussions because i believe that until CORE mechanics(lag, hit detection aiming, controls, movement) are improved beyond the level they're at it's all f'in pointless - balancing discussions are just so much jacking off and everything is just going to need rebalancing once(if) CPP gets their game working.

Balancing now does make our gameplay experiences better in the short term, but it doesn't have any effect on whether DUST lives or dies.

But this thread does bring up two old discussions on these forums.

1) The primary and dominating difference between the MD and all other weapons is the unpredictable(maybe) camera shake and to some extent the obscuring smoke.

We used to talk about the effect of various weapon impacts on various suit classes. I'm sure beta vets will remember the cheesy, half-assed mechanic CCP implemented that did nothing more than predictably elevate your camera when you were taking fire. If memory serves correctly, the effect was laughably identical for 1200 hp proto heavies and militia scouts.

The Camera shake we see for MD explosions is the first real implementation of a mechanic that rattles your cage when you take fire, and by doing so prevents retaliation - exactly as the OP has detailed above. Should a heavy really get rocked like a scout?

And where's the effect of weapon impact for all the other weapons?

2) Seven, maybe 8 months ago we had a pretty big thread about damage falloff based on distance from epicenter for explosives. Afaik nothing came of that, but i'm thinking it would go a long way towards balancing the MD and other explosive weapons. With the MD, i would want to see the effect of the camera shake falloff also.

What would happen if they removed the scale from hip fire, and just had the circle reticule. Make the scale only available during ADS?

Wouldn't take me long to adjust to that tho i don't see what the point would be. I know some other ppl who do rely on the reticle more. I dont really see what the point would be tho in changing the sights.

So what if projectile speed was increased along with damage drop off and/or slight blast radius decrease? Would that be acceptable?

+1 best trolling toy ever

When you give one of these very skilled players a Mass Driver, guess what happens? He can't miss. His helpless opponent cannot dodge, strafe, run for cover at all. He has essentially denied the helpless man the "2) Who can avoid the most damage" rule of this game. ALSO, he has crippled the helpless man's ability to just "stand his ground" and out DPS the Mass Driver because the MD jerks his screen around and clouds his vision with smoke. There is no reason to use any other weapon in a competitive match, (actually I take that back there needs to be a Forge gun sniping objectives). I try and go the High DPS route with my proficiency lvl 5, 2 cmplx dmg mods, charge shot imperial scrambler rifle, but all the DPS is meaningless in a duel with Mass Drivers. I could kill other suits/guns just fine if I got a bead on my opponent fast enough. But those MDs were impossible.

My two cents.

In battles where MD actually claims most kills it's the assault MD that is used. That weapon is prolly on the OP side. Likewise it's the most skill independent MD as it is designed for wide AoE blindfire. You will also see that 'better corps' who traditionally go for OP stuff all flock to ASSAULT md.

Then we have regular MD. All the crying AR 'leet' players who score high KDR on boards inevitably try this and realize that they cant do as well with it, then go back to AR and cry about MD in general on the forums. The regular MD is the work horse of ppl who play with MD. Now it's prolly well balanced in the game.

Lastly breach MD. This thing is so broken (like breach SG) that no amount of skill will make up for it. No one is using it. It's def UP.

Hm...

I'm pretty sure this is only happening because of broken aiming, I hardly had issues vs other MD users back on Chromosome. The MD as it is now is actually nerfed, if it didn't get nerfed then the base splash dmg on the PRO would've been around 150 (10% dmg bonus done to weapons in Uprising update).

I played a PC match yesterday. And wow, I got destroyed the second match. I'm willing to be that the majority of you, who think the Mass driver is in a good place right now, probably play Instant battle 99% of the time, like me. The problem here is that the random players (and also thanks to 400wp debacle) are pretty terrible and the mass driver is easy to ignore. I'm an Amarr Assault and specced into amarr ****, so to me, the mass driver was no more different than the Assault rifle. Just like some people are terrible with ARs, some people are terrible with Mass Drivers. Some people are really good with ARs, some people are good with Mass Drivers.

That's what I USED to think. Until **** hit the fan.

I played my first couple of competitive matches yesterday. The first game, I hardly died to mass drivers, died a few times to them but I felt all my deaths during the first match was fair. I think I went 14 kills and 7 or 9 deaths or something against Teamplayers.

Then the second match started and WTF.... Nearly every person I personally ran into had Mass Drivers and I must have died 10 or 12 times to Mass Drivers alone. This DEFINITELY put Mass Drivers on my radar. These things were inescapable. So I began thinking....


Casual vs Competitive (READ: kids who can't aim vs talented shooters)

The Mass driver cannot exist as it currently. No matter how you balance the weapon, it will either ruin competitive matches, or it will cease to become relevant at all even in casual matches. You see, when a competitive player uses non-Area of effect weapons (ARS, SMG, Semi AUTO rifles) against another, there are two competitions going on in the duel

1) Who can deal the most damage, the fastest
2) Who can avoid the most damage

When you give one of these very skilled players a Mass Driver, guess what happens? He can't miss. His helpless opponent cannot dodge, strafe, run for cover at all. He has essentially denied the helpless man the "2) Who can avoid the most damage" rule of this game. ALSO, he has crippled the helpless man's ability to just "stand his ground" and out DPS the Mass Driver because the MD jerks his screen around and clouds his vision with smoke. There is no reason to use any other weapon in a competitive match, (actually I take that back there needs to be a Forge gun sniping objectives). I try and go the High DPS route with my proficiency lvl 5, 2 cmplx dmg mods, charge shot imperial scrambler rifle, but all the DPS is meaningless in a duel with Mass Drivers. I could kill other suits/guns just fine if I got a bead on my opponent fast enough. But those MDs were impossible.

B-B-But Mass Drivers Takes Skill!

If you think the Mass Driver takes a lot of skill to master, then you are probably really bad at aiming and shooting. Play instant battle and you will see how terrible Mass Driver users are. Play PC and see how devastating Mass Drivers are.

The difference is that the MDs allow bad players (who would have terrible aiming) to, thanks to splash damage, have "decent" aiming. These bad players can now complete with ARs and other weapons in casual public matches.

on the other hand...

MDs allow skilled players (who can aim well consistently) to have flawless aiming. Because of the splash, the damage per splash, the smoke, and the screen displacement... the MD will out DPS anything mid/close-mid-mid/long (AKA AR territory) range.

So you still think the MD takes skill? Because of the projectile and time of flight? That's okay. Not trying to offend you or anything, but if you think an "easy-mode-splash-damage-black-hole-for-armor-instakiller" takes skill, if it took you weeks to master the MDs trajectory....

Conclusion

...then you are a bad player.

The assualt MD is OP. Regular MD's are fine though.

It's called NOOB tube for a reason..

Silence. Get more than 5 kills than you can have a opinion.

MD is OP all around.

Pro Pipe (TM)

You know what's more pathetic? You have gone 3-12 4-6 and 3-9 in wars against us using Proto NOOB tube and Exmaple used a scout suit with EXO5 and played better than you....

You know what's pathetic? 1. Caring about my KDR more than I care about my KDR. 2. Caring about KDR in a game that has 4 months left in it before everyone goes to play Destiny.

Go stroke your epeen and chestbeat because you have nothing else going for you in life.

Get benched much? You sucked it up horribly in first 2 matches and got the boot lmfao! You were using the easiest gun in game and still can't have success! You were just a carried nobody in Imps. Much like 60% of them.

Ha no, I took my girlfriend out to dinner, so I couldn't be there for the final match. I'm not surprised you don't know what a girlfriend is. If you would leave your mother's basement, you might find one.

Lol! All I ever hear from you is get out of mommy's basement. You know when a person uses stuff like that to insult often it's because they are usually taking a page from their own life and trying to dump it on others so you can get that 5 seconds of delusion where for once you can pretend like you are the somebody with a REAL girlfriend and has their own place. I bet it pisses you off that I am better than you at this game but it's just a small fraction of the over all equation of me just being that much better than you at LIFE itself.

You seem to care WAY TOO MUCH about a video game. I'm serious, I'm worried about your health. Go outside.

And I do have a real girlfriend, she regularly pulls me away from the ps3 to do stuff. In our own house.

You on the other hand, act like a 10 year old with your chestbeating. Just give it up, its pathetic.

Lol! ****'s coming out your eyes. I'll stop picking on you. I don't want you to end up killing yourself. You'll always have the glory daze when you were carried by good players and got to make believe you were good yourself and nobody will ever be able ot take that away from you.

Lol! ****'s coming out your eyes. I'll stop picking on you. I don't want you to end up killing yourself. You'll always have the glory daze when you were carried by good players and got to make believe you were good yourself and nobody will ever be able ot take that away from you.

CCP, take notice! ^^ Lot's of good ideas and discussion ITT!

I honestly can't believe this thread has maintained civility...

CCP, take notice! ^^ Lot's of good ideas and discussion ITT!

I honestly can't believe this thread has maintained civility...

I played a PC match yesterday. And wow, I got destroyed the second match. I'm willing to be that the majority of you, who think the Mass driver is in a good place right now, probably play Instant battle 99% of the time, like me. The problem here is that the random players (and also thanks to 400wp debacle) are pretty terrible and the mass driver is easy to ignore. I'm an Amarr Assault and specced into amarr ****, so to me, the mass driver was no more different than the Assault rifle. Just like some people are terrible with ARs, some people are terrible with Mass Drivers. Some people are really good with ARs, some people are good with Mass Drivers.

That's what I USED to think. Until **** hit the fan.

I played my first couple of competitive matches yesterday. The first game, I hardly died to mass drivers, died a few times to them but I felt all my deaths during the first match was fair. I think I went 14 kills and 7 or 9 deaths or something against Teamplayers.

Then the second match started and WTF.... Nearly every person I personally ran into had Mass Drivers and I must have died 10 or 12 times to Mass Drivers alone. This DEFINITELY put Mass Drivers on my radar. These things were inescapable. So I began thinking....


Casual vs Competitive (READ: kids who can't aim vs talented shooters)

The Mass driver cannot exist as it currently. No matter how you balance the weapon, it will either ruin competitive matches, or it will cease to become relevant at all even in casual matches. You see, when a competitive player uses non-Area of effect weapons (ARS, SMG, Semi AUTO rifles) against another, there are two competitions going on in the duel

1) Who can deal the most damage, the fastest
2) Who can avoid the most damage

When you give one of these very skilled players a Mass Driver, guess what happens? He can't miss. His helpless opponent cannot dodge, strafe, run for cover at all. He has essentially denied the helpless man the "2) Who can avoid the most damage" rule of this game. ALSO, he has crippled the helpless man's ability to just "stand his ground" and out DPS the Mass Driver because the MD jerks his screen around and clouds his vision with smoke. There is no reason to use any other weapon in a competitive match, (actually I take that back there needs to be a Forge gun sniping objectives). I try and go the High DPS route with my proficiency lvl 5, 2 cmplx dmg mods, charge shot imperial scrambler rifle, but all the DPS is meaningless in a duel with Mass Drivers. I could kill other suits/guns just fine if I got a bead on my opponent fast enough. But those MDs were impossible.

B-B-But Mass Drivers Takes Skill!

If you think the Mass Driver takes a lot of skill to master, then you are probably really bad at aiming and shooting. Play instant battle and you will see how terrible Mass Driver users are. Play PC and see how devastating Mass Drivers are.

The difference is that the MDs allow bad players (who would have terrible aiming) to, thanks to splash damage, have "decent" aiming. These bad players can now complete with ARs and other weapons in casual public matches.

on the other hand...

MDs allow skilled players (who can aim well consistently) to have flawless aiming. Because of the splash, the damage per splash, the smoke, and the screen displacement... the MD will out DPS anything mid/close-mid-mid/long (AKA AR territory) range.

So you still think the MD takes skill? Because of the projectile and time of flight? That's okay. Not trying to offend you or anything, but if you think an "easy-mode-splash-damage-black-hole-for-armor-instakiller" takes skill, if it took you weeks to master the MDs trajectory....

Conclusion

...then you are a bad player.

Well that's not very nice.

EVERY weapon has its counter...
Heavy FG > MD > AR > Heavy FG.

This applies to every other weapon, i just used this 3 as an example BECAUSE they are 3 eapons taht are in a good place now... (NOT OP, just doing their job)

You literally just made this up. These inequalities make no sense at all.



@Rusty Shallows

No problem. I come off this way because I'm bored and want to entertain myself, yet at the same time, have a thoughtful discussion that accomplishes something.

So what you are saying is that you are a troll by definition, unable to debate the topic because you are stubborn and refuse to accept that your thinking may be wrong, and a hypocrite.

Pretty much sums it up? cool.

At the beginning of this thread I wanted the Mass Driver to be removed.

But do to the feedback others have suggested, I think it makes more sense to make adjustments to it's killing efficiency while, at the same time, allowing it to remain as "area denial" as it's supposed to be.

Right now, the weapon is too easy to use, has a HUGE margin of error with very little punishment for mistakes, and it's killing power rivals other weapons that require more skill and punish mistakes.


I've carefully made my arguments, you are free to do the same, except I haven't seen a single legitimate argument as to why the Mass Driver should stay the same.