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Protocake JR
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
502
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Posted - 2013.08.10 14:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
I played a PC match yesterday. And wow, I got destroyed the second match. I'm willing to be that the majority of you, who think the Mass driver is in a good place right now, probably play Instant battle 99% of the time, like me. The problem here is that the random players (and also thanks to 400wp debacle) are pretty terrible and the mass driver is easy to ignore. I'm an Amarr Assault and specced into amarr ****, so to me, the mass driver was no more different than the Assault rifle. Just like some people are terrible with ARs, some people are terrible with Mass Drivers. Some people are really good with ARs, some people are good with Mass Drivers.
That's what I USED to think. Until **** hit the fan.
I played my first couple of competitive matches yesterday. The first game, I hardly died to mass drivers, died a few times to them but I felt all my deaths during the first match was fair. I think I went 14 kills and 7 or 9 deaths or something against Teamplayers.
Then the second match started and WTF.... Nearly every person I personally ran into had Mass Drivers and I must have died 10 or 12 times to Mass Drivers alone. This DEFINITELY put Mass Drivers on my radar. These things were inescapable. So I began thinking....
Casual vs Competitive (READ: kids who can't aim vs talented shooters)
The Mass driver cannot exist as it currently. No matter how you balance the weapon, it will either ruin competitive matches, or it will cease to become relevant at all even in casual matches. You see, when a competitive player uses non-Area of effect weapons (ARS, SMG, Semi AUTO rifles) against another, there are two competitions going on in the duel
1) Who can deal the most damage, the fastest
2) Who can avoid the most damage
When you give one of these very skilled players a Mass Driver, guess what happens? He can't miss. His helpless opponent cannot dodge, strafe, run for cover at all. He has essentially denied the helpless man the "2) Who can avoid the most damage" rule of this game. ALSO, he has crippled the helpless man's ability to just "stand his ground" and out DPS the Mass Driver because the MD jerks his screen around and clouds his vision with smoke. There is no reason to use any other weapon in a competitive match, (actually I take that back there needs to be a Forge gun sniping objectives). I try and go the High DPS route with my proficiency lvl 5, 2 cmplx dmg mods, charge shot imperial scrambler rifle, but all the DPS is meaningless in a duel with Mass Drivers. I could kill other suits/guns just fine if I got a bead on my opponent fast enough. But those MDs were impossible.
B-B-But Mass Drivers Takes Skill!
If you think the Mass Driver takes a lot of skill to master, then you are probably really bad at aiming and shooting. Play instant battle and you will see how terrible Mass Driver users are. Play PC and see how devastating Mass Drivers are.
The difference is that the MDs allow bad players (who would have terrible aiming) to, thanks to splash damage, have "decent" aiming. These bad players can now complete with ARs and other weapons in casual public matches.
on the other hand...
MDs allow skilled players (who can aim well consistently) to have flawless aiming. Because of the splash, the damage per splash, the smoke, and the screen displacement... the MD will out DPS anything mid/close-mid-mid/long (AKA AR territory) range.
So you still think the MD takes skill? Because of the projectile and time of flight? That's okay. Not trying to offend you or anything, but if you think an "easy-mode-splash-damage-black-hole-for-armor-instakiller" takes skill, if it took you weeks to master the MDs trajectory....
Conclusion
...then you are a bad player. |
Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster
681
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Posted - 2013.08.10 14:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
The problem is, either side refuses to give ground and talk about the weapon.
Its either "MD are OP, nerf'em!"
Or "MD takes skill and is UP, buff it! Also stfu AR scrub!"
Neither side is gonna be happy if we don't talk it out. |
Vulcanus Lightbringer
Eyniletti Rangers
Minmatar Republic
67
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Posted - 2013.08.10 14:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:The problem is, either side refuses to give ground and talk about the weapon.
Its either "MD are OP, nerf'em!"
Or "MD takes skill and is UP, buff it! Also stfu AR scrub!"
Neither side is gonna be happy if we don't talk it out.
Solution: Nerf both into the ground.
 |
Knight Soiaire
Better Hide R Die
1688
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Posted - 2013.08.10 14:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hit detection/Aiming is broken.
An AOE weapon is most popular. Who'd a thunk it?
Wait for Hit Detection to be fixed. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
4083
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Posted - 2013.08.10 14:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Knight Soiaire wrote:Hit detection/Aiming is broken.
An AOE weapon is most popular. Who'd a thunk it?
Wait for Hit Detection to be fixed.
^This! |
Bittersteel the Bastard
WarRavens
League of Infamy
98
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 14:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Oh god I was playing against Nyain San yesterday and they got a dropship on the roof of a building and all I saw was Boundless Assault Mass Driver kills pouring in. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
1102
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Posted - 2013.08.10 14:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sincere question:
Did you take ARs into a compound, I.e. a CQC area? |
Blaze Ashra
Paladin Survey Force
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.08.10 14:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
http://www.eldergame.com/2010/11/how-to-balance-an-mmo-and-how-to-stop/
"The bigger problem is that you canGÇÖt keep up with the players. Players are far more numerous than developers, and given the astonishing complexity of your combat simulation, they will find holes in your rebalanced efforts almost immediately. And then you need to rebalance again because of it. " |
Viktor Zokas
187.
180
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Posted - 2013.08.10 14:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
The main issue right now is not it's damage. It's the fact it can perform it's role with no drawbacks atm. It's able to pretty much wipe the existence of the plasma cannon out, because it's able to do it's role too.
I was liking the idea of making it a mid-range area suppression and making the shells not explode below ~30m. While the Plasma Cannon would be able to do infantry surpession in close range combat like it was meant to do.
Hell, 30m would be really generous to give, considering mid-range shooting doesn't start until ~50m. |
Bendtner92
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
852
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Posted - 2013.08.10 14:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Sincere question:
Did you take ARs into a compound, I.e. a CQC area?
I thought the AR was supposed to be a close range rifle? |
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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
1146
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Posted - 2013.08.10 14:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
I seem to recall a certain feature being present in PC but not in instant battles... What was it... Ah... Yes... Friendly fire.
Lets assume we're in PC
A 1v1, MD vs AR: if the MD hits a flux, MD wins.
If the MD has higher ground (slopes don't count) MD wins.
In close quarters, MD has advantage if the user isn't an idiot.
If MD lands a direct hit, MD wins.
First is avoidable, second and third is tactical, last is luck.
In all other scenarios AR wins.
Lets assume you were being kittened by a team of MD users. Run shotguns and watch them blow each other apart. |
Protocake JR
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
505
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Posted - 2013.08.10 14:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Sincere question:
Did you take ARs into a compound, I.e. a CQC area?
I used, Imperial SR, Carthums SR, and SMG. Did well (whether I lived or died) with all of them vs anyone not using a Mass Driver. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
1102
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 14:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Protocake JR wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Sincere question:
Did you take ARs into a compound, I.e. a CQC area? I used, Imperial SR, Carthums SR, and SMG. Did well (whether I lived or died) with all of them vs anyone not using a Mass Driver.
Let me rephrase the question:
Did you take mid-range weaponry into a short range confrontation? |
Knightshade Belladonna
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
826
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Posted - 2013.08.10 14:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
OP is right, when placed in the right hands , especially in several of the right hands in one game.. it completely throws out the use of all sorts of other weapons and scenarios. Removing the camera shake and maybe the debris kickup ( I know that would look odd.. just a suggestion ) would allow some sort of chance to return fire. The weapon is cool, and can be fun.. but when spammed by decent aimers, it just ruins gameplay.
I have not played a PC match spamming MD yet.. as I have only ever played a handful. However, I did get to play a PC match against a team wielding 12 core flaylocks... and I can imagine something similar happening there, not enjoyable |
Cobra CLUTCH79
OVERLORDS OF THE ONI SERPENT
27
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Posted - 2013.08.10 14:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Sincere question:
Did you take ARs into a compound, I.e. a CQC area? I thought the AR was supposed to be a close range rifle?
it is if youre good at hip firing |
Bendtner92
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
852
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Posted - 2013.08.10 14:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cobra CLUTCH79 wrote:Bendtner92 wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Sincere question:
Did you take ARs into a compound, I.e. a CQC area? I thought the AR was supposed to be a close range rifle? it is if youre good at hip firing
It doesn't matter if it's hip fire or not. The AR is a Gallente Plasma Rifle that's supposed to be a close range weapon. It's not supposed to be any more than that, not even a short-to-mid range weapon. The Minmatar Combat Rifle is the short-to-mid range rifle. |
bolsh lee
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
378
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Posted - 2013.08.10 15:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Not gonna lie one of the best "cant stay how it is/nerf" thread I've read..
And even being a religous MD user I semI agree, but I don't have any suggestions... Because in one hand if you pair a competitive MD against a competitive AR/Scram they can easily shut down a single MD user, due to rate of fire/damage... (on level ground of course)
But put two skilled MD users against even three or 4 AR/scrams, chances are the MD users win because of flux and splash damage... Mix in elevation advantage and its a double win...
The reason I don't have a suggestion is because it can be situational and Dust is about adjusting to the situation but when something can be spammed even by unskilled players and possibly determine the outcome of the battle, there is a problem somewhere...
So what do they do, reduce splash a bit ? Some would say that would make it worthless at 1v1, and it would, if you're horrble at aiming/judging distance.. On the other hand it will just create more MD users to camp roof tops but at the same time forcing them to be more situational...
I honestly think MD spam will straighten out a bit come 1.4 when aiming is improved because skilled/mediocre players are going to get better over night with that improvement to aiming and aim assist.. Not to mention lasers are actually going to see what they are aiming at now...
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Protocake JR
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
508
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Posted - 2013.08.10 15:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Protocake JR wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Sincere question:
Did you take ARs into a compound, I.e. a CQC area? I used, Imperial SR, Carthums SR, and SMG. Did well (whether I lived or died) with all of them vs anyone not using a Mass Driver. Let me rephrase the question: Did you take mid-range weaponry into a short range confrontation?
>implying SMG are not short range weapons
>implying compounds are CQC only confrontations
This isn't even about the roles weapons fill.
This is about the fundamental mechanics behind the Mass Driver that ruins competitive gameplay. You cannot fix the mass drivers bad mechanics with shotguns and SMGs. |
Zatara Rought
TeamPlayers
EoN.
721
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Posted - 2013.08.10 15:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
lol, we had our dedicated Mass Driver Fiddle, and danny from synergy was m/ding part time. And you went 0/14 the 2nd game, it stuck out or i'd tell you your first match as well I have the pic somewhere. GG. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
1103
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Posted - 2013.08.10 15:09:00 -
[20] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Cobra CLUTCH79 wrote:Bendtner92 wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Sincere question:
Did you take ARs into a compound, I.e. a CQC area? I thought the AR was supposed to be a close range rifle? it is if youre good at hip firing It doesn't matter if it's hip fire or not. The AR is a Gallente Plasma Rifle that's supposed to be a close range weapon. It's not supposed to be any more than that, not even a short-to-mid range weapon. The Minmatar Combat Rifle is the short-to-mid range rifle.
It is *supposed* to be a close range weapon, but it isn't. Right now its range is barely less than the scrambler rifles.
Don't forget that regardless of its technology, it's also still a rifle. Rifles are, by design, extended range.
IMO the only rebalance the MD demonstrates a need for, is a buff to the shotgun and perhaps the breach AR. Then we'd start to see an oppropriate balance between close and mid range weaponry. |
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Cyrius Li-Moody
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
660
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Posted - 2013.08.10 15:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
One mass driver, not so bad. Two mass drivers, pretty annoying. Three or more in one area and it's a death trap. By itself the weapon isn't that bad and be countered. In large numbers, yes it is horrible.
Overall this game has a problem with "spam" tactics. |
shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon
DARKSTAR ARMY
404
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Posted - 2013.08.10 15:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
AoE weapon and explosions in general, cause lag, i was in the map with 4 objectives (not the one with megatowers), outside the town the situation was normal, inside it was a complete mess, explosions everywhere, framerate was halved. |
Bendtner92
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
853
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Posted - 2013.08.10 15:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:It is *supposed* to be a close range weapon, but it isn't. Right now its range is barely less than the scrambler rifles.
Don't forget that regardless of its technology, it's also still a rifle. Rifles are, by design, extended range.
I think the ScR needs more range rather than giving the AR less. I'm mostly talking about optimal ranges here. The around 40m optimal the AR has is probably fine, but the ScR needs to have like 70-80m optimal imo.
Quote:IMO the only rebalance the MD demonstrates a need for, is a buff to the shotgun and perhaps the breach AR. Then we'd start to see an oppropriate balance between close and mid range weaponry.
I think the Breach AR might be changed entirely when the Rail Rifle comes out, if they even keep it in the game. The Breach AR is supposed to act somewhat like the Rail Rifle, so in reality it's supposed to be a long range slow firing weapon. |
ER-Bullitt
Molon Labe.
League of Infamy
203
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Posted - 2013.08.10 15:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
You come off very smug.
Whose to say that people who arent the best at aiming, or twich reflexes (perhaps older folks not up to par with the younger generationn) shouldnt have weapons that will make the game more enjoyable for them? Just because someone is not skillful with an AR type weapon doesnt mean they are a bad player. Maybe in your limited scope they are. Those players may be great thinkers, tankers, supporters, tacticians, hackers, pilots, defenders... just bad at tracking bunny hopping strafing players.
One might give your post some more credit if you werent so condescending.
-1 |
Protocake JR
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
507
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Posted - 2013.08.10 15:18:00 -
[25] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:lol, we had our dedicated Mass Driver Fiddle, and danny from synergy was m/ding part time. And you went 0/14 the 2nd game, it stuck out or i'd tell you your first match as well I have the pic somewhere. GG.
Yeah, the first game I went 14 and 9ish. It was a fun game. I hadn't played a competitive match since "Corporation Battles" were still a thing, so it's been a while. I must have avoided the Mass Drivers, or maybe you guys didn't field very many.
The second game was atrocious. Nearly every encounter was a fight against multiple MD users and I literally had to immediately turn off my ps3 and do something else because that match was the most frustrating match i've ever played.
It made me make this thread.
And I normally don't give a **** what is OP or UP. |
Bendtner92
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
853
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Posted - 2013.08.10 15:18:00 -
[26] - Quote
ER-Bullitt wrote:You come off very smug.
Whose to say that people who arent the best at aiming, or twich reflexes (perhaps older folks not up to par with the younger generationn) shouldnt have weapons that will make the game more enjoyable for them? Just because someone is not skillful with an AR type weapon doesnt mean they are a bad player. Maybe in your limited scope they are. Those players may be great thinkers, tankers, supporters, tacticians, hackers, pilots, defenders... just bad at tracking bunny hopping strafing players.
One might give your post some more credit if you werent so condescending.
-1
The problem is that if you make weapons for the not so skilled players so that they can do almost as good as the skilled players, then the skilled players will just use the weapon and completely dominate with it. |
DEZKA DIABLO
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.08.10 15:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm guessing you fought rnd second match lol?
Md are heavy guns but don't forget about multiple people using them plus proficiency an dam mods, faylock was the same....... Swarms of killer explosives |
Paran Tadec
Ancient Exiles
Negative-Feedback
1319
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Posted - 2013.08.10 15:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
And yet nothing will be done about forge abuse. You know in that match they had 2 or 3 forges on the tower that can only be reached by dropship, which because they are utter **** noone else can get up there after thee.first couple minutes.
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Protocake JR
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
507
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Posted - 2013.08.10 15:25:00 -
[29] - Quote
ER-Bullitt wrote:You come off very smug.
Whose to say that people who arent the best at aiming, or twich reflexes (perhaps older folks not up to par with the younger generationn) shouldnt have weapons that will make the game more enjoyable for them? Just because someone is not skillful with an AR type weapon doesnt mean they are a bad player. Maybe in your limited scope they are. Those players may be great thinkers, tankers, supporters, tacticians, hackers, pilots, defenders... just bad at tracking bunny hopping strafing players.
One might give your post some more credit if you werent so condescending.
-1
I did not mean to come off as condescending. I'm was just illustrating my observations of the mechanics of Mass Drivers in contrast with the casual and competitive player base.
Yes, I was very blunt, but i'm not here to sugar coat these issues. I want everyone "thinkers, tankers, supporters, tacticians, hackers, pilots, defenders..." to have a place in this game. But if you read my OP and understood it, you should realise that a viable Mass Driver ruins PC, but then again, if it is nerfed, it will most likely become useless again. (believe it or not, I do NOT want AR 514) Having this gun around, will either screw over the casuals, or the competitive.
I'm beginning to realize why I do not see many semi auto 6-8 round mag grenade launchers in competitive games. |
Funkmaster Whale
0uter.Heaven
EoN.
204
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Posted - 2013.08.10 15:25:00 -
[30] - Quote
I think the biggest aspect of this whole issue that only serves to exacerbate the Mass Driver's prevalence is the really shabby hit detection. This is not as bad in pub matches, but PC matches still to this day are plagued by bad frame rates and abysmal hot detection.
I know this for a fact because I've been trying to collect some video evidence from different guns. The biggest issue is with single shot weapons like tr TAC AR and Shotgun. It seems like only 1/3 to 1/2 of shots will ever actually register against people. I've had so many cases where I see the bullet hit, see the blue shield flash, crosshairs confirms the hit, and yet there is 0 damage done to the person. It's most noticeable on single shot guns because these guns put accuracy of that one shot above everything, but when the game is refusing to register your hits it becomes incredibly frustrating to deal with.
Now multiply this times your rapid-fire weapons like ScR, AR, SMG, HMG, etc. This in effect creates an atmosphere where it comes down to killing players as effectively and assuredly as possible. This is where the Mass Driver steps in. Don't get me wrong, the MD is not the only gun at fault here nor is it something we should be necessarily blaming on the MD. Flaylocks, Core Locus, MDs, all these ways of killing people only require you land your projectile in the general area of the player which increases your chance to hit tenfold. The issues MDs were having pre-1.2 are now equivalent to what most hitscan weapons now seem to be having.
So, my suggestion is CCP really needs to get down on the hit detection issues before proceeding onto weapon balance. I'm not sure what's going on, but this game can't keep going on like this if CCP actually intends for people to take their "tournaments" or whatever seriously. In fact, the tournament wi probably show which corps are willing to abuse broken mechanics the most, and which corp is best at abusing said mechanics. |
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