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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1585
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Posted - 2013.08.10 16:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Funkmaster Whale wrote:I think the biggest aspect of this whole issue that only serves to exacerbate the Mass Driver's prevalence is the really shabby hit detection. This is not as bad in pub matches, but PC matches still to this day are plagued by bad frame rates and abysmal hit detection.
I know this for a fact because I've been trying to collect some video evidence from different guns to really show how bad it is. The biggest issue is with single shot weapons like the TAC AR, Shotgun, Imperial ScR, and Sniper Rifles. It seems like only 1/3 to 1/2 of shots will ever actually register against people. I've had so many cases where I see the bullet hit, see the blue shield flash, crosshairs confirms the hit, even HEAR the hit sound, and yet there is 0 damage done to the person. It's most noticeable on single shot guns because these guns put accuracy of that one shot above everything so you immediately notice when a good shot did not register, and when the game is refusing to register those crucial shots it becomes incredibly frustrating to deal with.
Now multiply this times your rapid-fire weapons like ScR, AR, SMG, HMG, etc. This in effect creates an atmosphere where it comes down to killing players as effectively and assuredly as possible. This is where the Mass Driver steps in. Don't get me wrong, the MD is not the only gun at fault here nor is it something we should be necessarily blaming on the MD. Flaylocks, Core Locus, MDs, all these ways of killing people only require you land your projectile in the general area of the player which increases your chance to hit tenfold. The issues MDs were having pre-1.2 are now equivalent to what most hitscan weapons now seem to be having.
So, my suggestion is CCP really needs to get down on the hit detection issues before proceeding onto weapon balance. I'm not sure what's going on, but this game can't keep going on like this if CCP actually intends for people to take their "tournaments" or whatever seriously. In fact, the tournament will probably show which corps are willing to abuse broken mechanics the most, and which corp is best at abusing said mechanics.
This is probably the core of the issue. Grenade spam in CQC is no better than MD spam is.
Explosives in general are spammed like crazy because they are the only weapons with reliable hit detection in CQC in PC.
That and MDs are ungodly CQC weapons, they perform the role too well.
Chunky monkey asked if shotguns or the breach could be buffed to compensate as a counter? Yeah CQC weapons are the worst choice against MDs at that range you literally cannot avoid the splash.
And yes, almost all of PC is continuous CQC battling, you are battling for an objective, not derping around doing whatever in instant battles. So weapons that are imba in CQC will be spammed like crazy in PC as its essentially one long CQC battle with 100000 uplinks placed around to ensure you can spawn and get right back into the CQC.
Big Issues: 1. Hit detection for hit scan weapons in CQC needs to be addressed for sure, its a serious issue. 2. Explosive damage fall off needs to be reviewed, I know it has some sort of damage fall off mechanic in place but its not right atm, its too high atm and encourages explosive use over all else. 3. Flux grenades need to be reevaluated, 7.2m and 1800 damage means you will lose all of your shields in an unavoidable 7.2m radius, in a game with such high TTKs, having insta kill weapons with 7.2m of blast radius, carrying 3 at a time and having an essentially infinite supply from proto nanohives is BAD for gameplay. 4. Locus grenades need to reevaluated as well, 7.2m blast radius and some sort of strange bonus to armor that can cause hits of up to 900-1000 damage from a single grenade, something is very wrong there, esp for a nade with 7.2m of blast radius. 5. Explosives increase in blast radius and damage, cause a huge rift in power from std to proto, that power gap needs to be addressed and tightened. Explosives should increase in power or increase in radius but not both. This applies for both explosive weapons and grenades. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1585
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Posted - 2013.08.10 16:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Funkmaster Whale wrote:You and I are pretty much on the same page. I've created several posts about most of those points throughout the feedback forum. The last point I'd like to add is some sort of deterrent to equipment spam. My suggestion to that is to change it so that all equipment has a hard cap of 3 active units per person, and that any new equipment laid down would destroy the first accordingly. This is to prevent the insane uplink/repping nanohive spam on rooftops that every PC match comes down to.
I've become so bored with trying to argue tactics with my corp because it's all the same. Every PC match comes down to two things: (a) get the high ground, (b) spam uplinks. That's the big secret to winning the "strategy" side of PC. After that it just comes down to who can spam AoE weapons the best to clear out the enemy.
Very true, uplink abuse is also a huge problem in PC.
We need to get rid of team uplinks in general in PC I think. That or put a team limit on the number of similar uplinks you can have.
2 active per person, 6 active per team. That kind of thing. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1588
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Posted - 2013.08.10 19:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
ER-Bullitt wrote:I think you are missing the big picture I am trying to paint fo ryou. GO back in history.. how many weapons have people cried for nerfs? Before PC, during and After? The list is endless. The difference now, instead of 8v8 corp battles and pubs to slowly draw attention to the FOTM weapons, we now have PC. A direct proving ground where everyone will use any weapon they can to gain the W.
There will ALWAYS be a FOTM weapon. Until the day CCP decides to go the route of other FPS shooters and remove the diversity. Thats what diversity is all about. Who can come up with the latest and greatest way to skill up their merc, use equipment, and terrain to get the W. If you do not adapt yourself and use something to counter, or use the same FOTM weapon, these nerf threads will never end.
Tweak this, tweak that, go right ahead and tweak/nerf/buff all day long. These threads will never go away because teams that use teamwork, coordination, strategy and the most useful weapons will always come out on top in PC. It is the quintessential min/max game mode. If you are waiting patiently for your weapon of choice to become relevant in PC you will be waiting a very long time. If you have the patience, great. If you want to compete, adapt anyway that you can.. To say there is no counter to MD spam is to lie to yourself. Get better.
I don't believe this is necessarily true. Glaring imbalances hurt gameplay.
Explosives have been a problem since 1.0 dropped, and they are still a problem. This is a problem that requires a fix, not just 'HTFU nub'.
Fact of the matter is, Uprising was never beta tested, these are core balance issues that are in the game because there was no QA... and now CCP is relying on its player base to do this QA testing.
Sorry but this game isn't balanced enough to just 'leave it alone'. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1588
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Posted - 2013.08.10 19:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY wrote:Friendly fire is the answer. As to why the developer continue to want to create a care bear game is beyond me, but as long as explosives can be spammed on top of groups of blues that are actually engaged in a gun battles this will happen. Add friendly fire and mass drivers will decrease, when your killing three blues for every one red people will see what situations are appropriate for its use and will diminish them when not appropriate.
Not true... PC has friendly fire and suffers explosive spam much worse than pubs do.
Friendly fire in pubs will destroy this game, the amount of griefing that would spawn from intentional team killing is a sure fire way to make sure this game dies in a heartbeat. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1588
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Posted - 2013.08.10 20:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY wrote:Friendly fire is the answer. As to why the developer continue to want to create a care bear game is beyond me, but as long as explosives can be spammed on top of groups of blues that are actually engaged in a gun battles this will happen. Add friendly fire and mass drivers will decrease, when your killing three blues for every one red people will see what situations are appropriate for its use and will diminish them when not appropriate. Not true... PC has friendly fire and suffers explosive spam much worse than pubs do. Friendly fire in pubs will destroy this game, the amount of griefing that would spawn from intentional team killing is a sure fire way to make sure this game dies in a heartbeat. Btw ff in public matches is not a new concept is in most of the better games and won't blow people's minds and ruin the game. What's the deal I thought TP was started as a Socom clan? FF will ruin the game GTFO newb.
I don't know anything about Socom, I joined TP on Dust. But I know this isn't Socom.
The amount of griefing you would see in a F2P game with team killing enabled? You cannot tell me this game wouldn't be riddled with griefing, people just happy as can be to destroy other people's proto suits just cause they can.
Its not a new concept, and almost no games adopt it... that should tell you enough right there.
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1617
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Posted - 2013.08.12 19:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Protocake JR wrote:At the beginning of this thread I wanted the Mass Driver to be removed.
But do to the feedback others have suggested, I think it makes more sense to make adjustments to it's killing efficiency while, at the same time, allowing it to remain as "area denial" as it's supposed to be.
Right now, the weapon is too easy to use, has a HUGE margin of error with very little punishment for mistakes, and it's killing power rivals other weapons that require more skill and punish mistakes.
I've carefully made my arguments, you are free to do the same, except I haven't seen a single legitimate argument as to why the Mass Driver should stay the same.
Fix explosives damage fall off! Its the true solution. Rewards skill and maintains the area denial aspects of the weapon.
Currently, no matter how it was intended, explosive damage fall does not work properly in this game. |
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