I played a PC match yesterday. And wow, I got destroyed the second match. I'm willing to be that the majority of you, who think the Mass driver is in a good place right now, probably play Instant battle 99% of the time, like me. The problem here is that the random players (and also thanks to 400wp debacle) are pretty terrible and the mass driver is easy to ignore. I'm an Amarr Assault and specced into amarr ****, so to me, the mass driver was no more different than the Assault rifle. Just like some people are terrible with ARs, some people are terrible with Mass Drivers. Some people are really good with ARs, some people are good with Mass Drivers.

That's what I USED to think. Until **** hit the fan.

I played my first couple of competitive matches yesterday. The first game, I hardly died to mass drivers, died a few times to them but I felt all my deaths during the first match was fair. I think I went 14 kills and 7 or 9 deaths or something against Teamplayers.

Then the second match started and WTF.... Nearly every person I personally ran into had Mass Drivers and I must have died 10 or 12 times to Mass Drivers alone. This DEFINITELY put Mass Drivers on my radar. These things were inescapable. So I began thinking....


Casual vs Competitive (READ: kids who can't aim vs talented shooters)

The Mass driver cannot exist as it currently. No matter how you balance the weapon, it will either ruin competitive matches, or it will cease to become relevant at all even in casual matches. You see, when a competitive player uses non-Area of effect weapons (ARS, SMG, Semi AUTO rifles) against another, there are two competitions going on in the duel

1) Who can deal the most damage, the fastest
2) Who can avoid the most damage

When you give one of these very skilled players a Mass Driver, guess what happens? He can't miss. His helpless opponent cannot dodge, strafe, run for cover at all. He has essentially denied the helpless man the "2) Who can avoid the most damage" rule of this game. ALSO, he has crippled the helpless man's ability to just "stand his ground" and out DPS the Mass Driver because the MD jerks his screen around and clouds his vision with smoke. There is no reason to use any other weapon in a competitive match, (actually I take that back there needs to be a Forge gun sniping objectives). I try and go the High DPS route with my proficiency lvl 5, 2 cmplx dmg mods, charge shot imperial scrambler rifle, but all the DPS is meaningless in a duel with Mass Drivers. I could kill other suits/guns just fine if I got a bead on my opponent fast enough. But those MDs were impossible.

B-B-But Mass Drivers Takes Skill!

If you think the Mass Driver takes a lot of skill to master, then you are probably really bad at aiming and shooting. Play instant battle and you will see how terrible Mass Driver users are. Play PC and see how devastating Mass Drivers are.

The difference is that the MDs allow bad players (who would have terrible aiming) to, thanks to splash damage, have "decent" aiming. These bad players can now complete with ARs and other weapons in casual public matches.

on the other hand...

MDs allow skilled players (who can aim well consistently) to have flawless aiming. Because of the splash, the damage per splash, the smoke, and the screen displacement... the MD will out DPS anything mid/close-mid-mid/long (AKA AR territory) range.

So you still think the MD takes skill? Because of the projectile and time of flight? That's okay. Not trying to offend you or anything, but if you think an "easy-mode-splash-damage-black-hole-for-armor-instakiller" takes skill, if it took you weeks to master the MDs trajectory....

Conclusion

...then you are a bad player.

It doesn't matter if it's hip fire or not. The AR is a Gallente Plasma Rifle that's supposed to be a close range weapon. It's not supposed to be any more than that, not even a short-to-mid range weapon. The Minmatar Combat Rifle is the short-to-mid range rifle.

So what's the difference between you being stomped by point and shoot ARs, and you being stomped by MD users? Especially when the AR has more than double the amount of usage the MD gets?

I think the biggest aspect of this whole issue that only serves to exacerbate the Mass Driver's prevalence is the really shabby hit detection. This is not as bad in pub matches, but PC matches still to this day are plagued by bad frame rates and abysmal hit detection.

I know this for a fact because I've been trying to collect some video evidence from different guns to really show how bad it is. The biggest issue is with single shot weapons like the TAC AR, Shotgun, Imperial ScR, and Sniper Rifles. It seems like only 1/3 to 1/2 of shots will ever actually register against people. I've had so many cases where I see the bullet hit, see the blue shield flash, crosshairs confirms the hit, even HEAR the hit sound, and yet there is 0 damage done to the person. It's most noticeable on single shot guns because these guns put accuracy of that one shot above everything so you immediately notice when a good shot did not register, and when the game is refusing to register those crucial shots it becomes incredibly frustrating to deal with.

Now multiply this times your rapid-fire weapons like ScR, AR, SMG, HMG, etc. This in effect creates an atmosphere where it comes down to killing players as effectively and assuredly as possible. This is where the Mass Driver steps in. Don't get me wrong, the MD is not the only gun at fault here nor is it something we should be necessarily blaming on the MD. Flaylocks, Core Locus, MDs, all these ways of killing people only require you land your projectile in the general area of the player which increases your chance to hit tenfold. The issues MDs were having pre-1.2 are now equivalent to what most hitscan weapons now seem to be having.

So, my suggestion is CCP really needs to get down on the hit detection issues before proceeding onto weapon balance. I'm not sure what's going on, but this game can't keep going on like this if CCP actually intends for people to take their "tournaments" or whatever seriously. In fact, the tournament will probably show which corps are willing to abuse broken mechanics the most, and which corp is best at abusing said mechanics.

The problem is that if you make weapons for the not so skilled players so that they can do almost as good as the skilled players, then the skilled players will just use the weapon and completely dominate with it.

>implying SMG are not short range weapons
>implying compounds are CQC only confrontations

This isn't even about the roles weapons fill.

This is about the fundamental mechanics behind the Mass Driver that ruins competitive gameplay. You cannot fix the mass drivers bad mechanics with shotguns and SMGs.

couldn't you say that about the ar since day one?

Those "spam tactics" are perpetuated because explosions and area of effect are way too effective in this game. I'm sure if everyone was spamming ARs in PCs people wouldn't be complaining nearly as much because it still requires you to aim, shoot, and pray the bullet registers. The MD doesn't seem to have the those problems nearly as much.

And don't even start on uplinks. I've already created several posts about that to no avail.

Since when was the AR made for the less skilled ones?

Big Issues:
1. Hit detection for hit scan weapons in CQC needs to be addressed for sure, its a serious issue.
2. Explosive damage fall off needs to be reviewed, I know it has some sort of damage fall off mechanic in place but its not right atm, its too high atm and encourages explosive use over all else.
3. Flux grenades need to be reevaluated, 7.2m and 1800 damage means you will lose all of your shields in an unavoidable 7.2m radius, in a game with such high TTKs, having insta kill weapons with 7.2m of blast radius, carrying 3 at a time and having an essentially infinite supply from proto nanohives is BAD for gameplay.
4. Locus grenades need to reevaluated as well, 7.2m blast radius and some sort of strange bonus to armor that can cause hits of up to 900-1000 damage from a single grenade, something is very wrong there, esp for a nade with 7.2m of blast radius.
5. Explosives increase in blast radius and damage, cause a huge rift in power from std to proto, that power gap needs to be addressed and tightened. Explosives should increase in power or increase in radius but not both. This applies for both explosive weapons and grenades.

the ar has a third skill to increase effectiveness. it hits hardest at alpha volley, which makes it stronger than any hmg. it's got range out to FOREVER.

a free ar is better than most maxed out weapons. try doing the math. take into account reload times. take into account how an hmg doesn't even do full damage until 1.5 seconds into it's fire-animation. take into account how useless a laser rifle is. take into account how useless a sniper rifle is (unless you're a mile from the fight). take into account that the only other usable weapon is the one that you're qqing about on the forums.

You and I are pretty much on the same page. I've created several posts about most of those points throughout the feedback forum. The last point I'd like to add is some sort of deterrent to equipment spam. My suggestion to that is to change it so that all equipment has a hard cap of 3 active units per person, and that any new equipment laid down would destroy the first accordingly. This is to prevent the insane uplink/repping nanohive spam on rooftops that every PC match comes down to.

I've become so bored with trying to argue tactics with my corp because it's all the same. Every PC match comes down to two things: (a) get the high ground, (b) spam uplinks. That's the big secret to winning the "strategy" side of PC. After that it just comes down to who can spam AoE weapons the best to clear out the enemy.

Last I checked it had a 40m optimal range, not infinite range.

Last I checked you had to hit your enemy to damage him.

You and I are pretty much on the same page. I've created several posts about most of those points throughout the feedback forum. The last point I'd like to add is some sort of deterrent to equipment spam. My suggestion to that is to change it so that all equipment has a hard cap of 3 active units per person, and that any new equipment laid down would destroy the first accordingly. This is to prevent the insane uplink/repping nanohive spam on rooftops that every PC match comes down to.

I've become so bored with trying to argue tactics with my corp because it's all the same. Every PC match comes down to two things: (a) get the high ground, (b) spam uplinks. That's the big secret to winning the "strategy" side of PC. After that it just comes down to who can spam AoE weapons the best to clear out the enemy.

last i checked geks will hit you effectively out to 70m. which pretty much makes me think you didn't check anything.

last i checked the splash damage i'm hiting for is 140. what's that, like 5 bullets from a gek? how may rounds a minute do you fire? somebody get me an abacus.

last i checked geks will hit you effectively out to 70m. which pretty much makes me think you didn't check anything.

last i checked the splash damage i'm hiting for is 140. what's that, like 5 bullets from a gek? how may rounds a minute do you fire? somebody get me an abacus.

Reread my OP, specifically the "Casual vs Competitive" part.

GEK's literally do 2 dmg per bullet at 70m. And at 70m, your accuracy rating is going to be low as ****.

Are you even for real?

The problem is, either side refuses to give ground and talk about the weapon.

Its either "MD are OP, nerf'em!"

Or "MD takes skill and is UP, buff it! Also stfu AR scrub!"

Neither side is gonna be happy if we don't talk it out.

If you read the post, this issue is primarily most prevalent in Planetary Conquest battles where corps are using the most effective tactics to win, that being the MD. At that level, you typically don't get "stomped" by ARs because you have time to duck, dodge, and get behind cover to avoid them. You don't get that luxury with an MD in closer-quarters combat.

Until it gets fixed, my main counter-tactic is to literally bear hug MD users while gunning them. That way if I die they at least have a chance to blow themselves or their teammates up with me. That's what we really need: more people forcing MD users to be aware just how stupid their own splash damage is.

I have to say that after reading this post, PC doesn't sound like a very fun game play experience.... imagining the scenarios that are described in this thread makes me enjoy pub matches all the more where I run across a variety of weapons and play styles..... given the competitive nature it seems like having balance in this game mode is going to be very hard to achieve.

I was of the mind that MD's are fine, but then again I've never experienced an entire co-ordinated squad of them in CQC.

So, there are no effective counters other than engaging attempting to engage in CQC? A squad or two of LR users or snipers would not help clear out the compound (due to cover?). What about distance weapons with some splash damage such as a few rail tanks?

Let me get this straight.

This is your thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101179&find=unread
You main either a scrambler rifle or sniper rifle.
You couldn't deal with mass drivers.
And you think the problem is on their end.

Yeah i'm pretty bad.

You've single handedly won this argument with your impeccable logic and apparent flawless reading comprehension.

I think the Mass Driver is fine where it is. Not because "Get gud scrub" or "It is hard to use". Because this game needs diversity. If CCP Nerfs this gun into uselessness, that's one more gun that no-one uses anymore. It will all continue to fall into the nerf basket until every gun fires flowers at people.


The Mass Driver is an area denial weapon, So it will clear out places and keep people from getting to them. It shouldn't be touched. Most people hate it because they get killed by it multiple times. That and the fact that some people know how to make it such a beast weapon. A MD with fluxes and damage mods are a sure killer, as it should be.

I wouldn't be too upset if it got a nerf (As in it is less powerful but is still very effective) but that's still the problem. It would still be effective. That's what the MD is, effective. People cry ITS OP because it's effective at what it does, and won't stop crying until it becomes ineffective.


IDK. There isn't a nerf that can satisfy both sides of it. The MDers will be mad if it gets nerfed into hell, the Non- MD users will be mad if it can still be very effective.

The MD really isn't OP. Just another weapon that can be used usefully besides the normal pot of weapons. Just that people hate diversity.