slower rof because to many ppl useit like a shot gun..

slower rof will fix this prob...

breach ar is no diffrent from the reg ar....


pretty much the same overall in cqc...

I don't understand what you're saying Cross.
Having the flat explosive system work more as a sphere would simply make the explosives work that much more effectively. The diameter of the explosion is still the same whether it's an actual radial sphere or not. That would in no way diminish it's cqc value.

The reason the MD is being used as a slayer weapon is because its stats allow for that.

This goes all the way back to Replication.

When the mass driver was first introduced it didn't have enough rounds in the chamber to kill anyone. 2 rounds. 3 rounds max. It was totally useless.
A bunch of us argued to simply give the damned thing the same damage as any basic locus grenade, but no, a bunch of people said it should have more rounds. That transformed the mass driver into the pain in the ass it is today.
Make it shoot grenades, cut the number of rounds back down to what CCP initially intended and BUMP UP it's damage to that of an actual grenade so that it can fulfill it's purpose; delivering 2 or 3 well-timed, well-placed grenades back to back. A support weapon.

400 HP damage grenades. But only shooting 2 or 3 at a time. It was never supposed to receive a clip size increase.
We all argued this waay back in closed beta.

"Too good in CQC" generally means "I can't dance with it like I can an AR".

Now that holds true for any splash weapon so the argument really boils down to "Nerf the **** out of it until my AR is better than it in CQC".

That is followed by any number of "minor adjustments" that are designed to ompletely neuter the the weapon.

Thank you for both the information and the further look into the matter.
Armed with this new info I now need to pull together a testing protocol for how those pesky scouts (and some Cal suits) are capable of using AoE weapons against me at close range without taking visible health damage themselves (up to this point I was sure it was circle vs sphere related which anecdotally seemed to fit the facts)

Again, thanks for the update
Cross

Recent as of 8/11/2013


According to CCP Wolfman sphere damage is already in the game, this does not remotely match my in game observations and tests as I've seen scouts and some Cal suits 'bunny hop over the damage' as recently as this 2x SP event.
Something is clearly missing from the puzzle here and while we wait for CCP to give it another look I"m going to try some testing of my own and invite others to do the same.

Regardless of these tests or their results the options presented by the OP still have the mechanical and exploit flaws I've listed elsewhere. Speaking as someone who does not "just spam it at close range" I can firmly say that the OP is a flawed method which does not solve for the issues presented. For the sake of completeness however I must also state that if the CCP quote above is fully accurate and no AoE related bugs are present then my prior suggestions also do not solve for the issues presented.

Time to do more testing, and while I'm at it I'll reiterate my request for definitions and details as posted above in #154

~Cross

By GÇ£too good in CQCGÇ¥ I mean that if I'm running around a corner and there just happens to be a guy with a mass driver, I'm screwed even in my proto suit. If I close the gap to suicidal levels for that player, then I can't keep my aim no matter what I'm using and hopefully I don't need to tell you that the problem is not remotely related to my skill at aiming. If I try and run away back around the corner, not only can he still hit me by shooting the floor where I was, but the user of the MD doesn't have to aim much to kill me in two or three shots at the optimal range of whatever weapon I'm holding (yes it's usually the AR but that still requires careful aiming)..

Trust me, it is spherical. I can see the sphere on my screen right now :-)

On my local server it is literally impossible to drop shells at my feet and not take damage whilst jumping. There is a good chance the issues you are seeing are related to latency so the sphere (or the character) on the client and the server are not in exactly the same place. This would explain why it sometimes feels 'off'.

We've made further improvements to hit detection/lag compensation in the 1.4 release and will continue to do more in 1.5 so we should see things getting better.

The other thing to consider is that in first person distances can seem a lot closer than they actually are. So you think it went off very close to you but it was actually a fair bit further away.

Lastly, the guns do have both kick and dispersion.

More related info

That's good news, and thanks for your reply earlier. As for what I meant by GÇ£all situationsGÇ¥ I mean pretty much how you explained it. The mass driver simply does too well in situations it is not supposed to be in and considering there is no damage falloff, an MD can kill someone very easily at range with much less accuracy than is required from the AR, SCR or sniper rifle.

As for knowing about the use of a mass driver, my corp mate specced into them way back and I asked if he would pick it up again. He constantly did well with it, watching people just jump ten feet in the air was funny but it was just cheap and too easy. He was rounding corners and taking guys out in CQC no problem and I've only seen him die to his own MD twice. We stopped using it because it just wasn't as fun or tactical as we both like.

Now for that 800 damage, it seems like that is exactly what must have occured, the guy got behind me for a split second and even though the explosion appeared at my feet when I was facing the guy, the various issue with the game compounded together in what ultimately was a very lucky shot for the guy.

I still think that the idea stated in the OP will keep the MD dangerous, but relegate it solely to the use of area denial, sitting behind the frontline being like a mortar. You wouldn't put infantry behind a mortar emplacement would you?

Edit: It should be up to the skill of the MD user to take out enemies at range before they reach the null range where charges don't detonate as opposed to what we have currently which is that MD's can be used at any range below sniper.

That's good news, and thanks for your reply earlier. As for what I meant by GÇ£all situationsGÇ¥ I mean pretty much how you explained it. The mass driver simply does too well in situations it is not supposed to be in and considering there is no damage falloff, an MD can kill someone very easily at range with much less accuracy than is required from the AR, SCR or sniper rifle.

As for knowing about the use of a mass driver, my corp mate specced into them way back and I asked if he would pick it up again. He constantly did well with it, watching people just jump ten feet in the air was funny but it was just cheap and too easy. He was rounding corners and taking guys out in CQC no problem and I've only seen him die to his own MD twice. We stopped using it because it just wasn't as fun or tactical as we both like.

Now for that 800 damage, it seems like that is exactly what must have occured, the guy got behind me for a split second and even though the explosion appeared at my feet when I was facing the guy, the various issue with the game compounded together in what ultimately was a very lucky shot for the guy.

I still think that the idea stated in the OP will keep the MD dangerous, but relegate it solely to the use of area denial, sitting behind the frontline being like a mortar. You wouldn't put infantry behind a mortar emplacement would you?

Edit: It should be up to the skill of the MD user to take out enemies at range before they reach the null range where charges don't detonate as opposed to what we have currently which is that MD's can be used at any range below sniper.

Again how do you expect the Breach MD to compete with this change? And the Assault MD is fine the way it is, it still a terrible weapon in CQC. Please consider other varients before making the change, or at least specify which variant you want to change instead of a complete nerf across the board.

The other variants would have different minimum arming distances. Standard has an arm distance of 10 meters, assault has 8, breach has 5. Easy.

No, that's overly complicated for how fast paced Dust is.

Re-read, I made an edit. :) Dust is also only fast paced in CQC, the mass driver doesn't belong there.

I already did, and I still don't like the idea. This wasn't the first time it was suggested and this isn't the first time I didn't like it.

Well unfortunately, a simple dislike of the idea isn't really going to do anything is it. The fact of the matter is that the MD is being used too frequently in close quarters engagements and is being used as an assault weapon but barely being used as an area denial weapon. This change would fix that problem rather neatly without nerfing the mass driver into oblivion. Right now the MD is taking the role of shotgun, assault rifle and itself, to which there is very little counter other than another mass driver or sniper rifle.

That's not to say that you can't kill an MD user at all with only these weapons, but in CQC I should not be losing to what essentially boils down to grenade spam.

Well unfortunately, a simple dislike of the idea isn't really going to do anything is it. The fact of the matter is that the MD is being used too frequently in close quarters engagements and is being used as an assault weapon but barely being used as an area denial weapon. This change would fix that problem rather neatly without nerfing the mass driver into oblivion. Right now the MD is taking the role of shotgun, assault rifle and itself, to which there is very little counter other than another mass driver or sniper rifle.

That's not to say that you can't kill an MD user at all with only these weapons, but in CQC I should not be losing to what essentially boils down to grenade spam.

AR already has more DPS than the MD, and is more effective at all ranges. AR users need to stop running head on like lemmings and put some distance between themselves and a MD being used in CQC- common sense. Hit detection is killing the shotgun, which is actually a good hard counter to the MD- I'd rather see hit detection being fixed before anything else. Also, get away from the term "assault weapon" a weapon is a weapon. You pull the trigger and try to kill people with it. If a bunch of people are putting 3 levels into the MD and running around with the EXO-5 like it's a shotgun, (which is the real issue) find a weakness instead of crying on the forums.

Well unfortunately, a simple dislike of the idea isn't really going to do anything is it. The fact of the matter is that the MD is being used too frequently in close quarters engagements and is being used as an assault weapon but barely being used as an area denial weapon. This change would fix that problem rather neatly without nerfing the mass driver into oblivion. Right now the MD is taking the role of shotgun, assault rifle and itself, to which there is very little counter other than another mass driver or sniper rifle.

That's not to say that you can't kill an MD user at all with only these weapons, but in CQC I should not be losing to what essentially boils down to grenade spam.

Two notes before a more substanentive response later.

#1 - If anyone has posted a response to my "the suggestion in the OP can't actually be mechanically viable" points I have yet to see it, can someone respond to this aspect or point me to a direct response?

#2 - Tonight I killed a Prototype Cal Logi with a Prototype Mass Driver in CQC using my 100% BPO fitting, and I did so with 40% shields remaining at the end of the battle. I will admit this is a bit above the arc of my average but it's not strikingly unusual... in the same game in the same suit I also caused 4 proto suited MD users to suicide when fighting me in low-mid/CQC ranges, only two of which managed to take me with them.

End of match tally, my free suit deaths 2, proto MD+Proto suit kills 5. I'll keep an eye on my MD deaths and kills in the future but so far my 'Exile' AR + BPO fit laughs in the face of proto MDs+proto suits.

0.02 ISK
Cross

Ok dokey...

In the case of a direct hit only direct damage is applied to the target. Splash is not applied to the target but will be applied to any others that happen to be in range.

A headshot modifier would apply if the explosion hits your head. A series of checks are done to different body parts and splash is applied to the first one it hits (typically not the head). I would need to check on vehicles, I'm not sure how splash is applied to the regular body Vs weak spots.

And now a "memo" from the desk of CCP Wolfman

The changes would do nothing but nerf the other variants. The changes you purposed would completely take away any reason to use the Breach MD over a shotgun, which is superior in almost every way RIGHT NOW. You will completely take away the Assault's ability to kill anything within 10 meters before you die yourself, which it is already struggling to do RIGHT NOW.