If the safety was implemented, what do you think of the idea that a direct hit would still do damage but not explode if within the minimum arming distance?

I guess I would be fine with that, but what if the user starts panic spamming and actually kills you. :/

Get direct hit, switch to. idearm, avoid CQC situations within 5 meters.

Like I was saying, direct hits would still do the gun's normal direct damage, just no explosion and no damage to surrounding enemies within 5 the meter minimum range.

Also, taking the bulky, useless flip-up-site off the gun would be 100% ok with me.

I don't like it, it's a widespread nerf(which isn't needed) based on one variant. I've never heard of anyone using the Assault MD like a shotgun, and lets face it, the Breach doesnt need any more nerfs.

I think we are missing the point here.

The problem is NOT the mass driver, if we must search a problem the 2 problem are:

A) CLONE istantgib.
B) Spash dmg calc

The first one is too clear it dont need explanation, The second one is the cause of the Mass driver hate. Why people can jump and shoot at their feet with it and avoid all the splash dmg?
Like Cross was saing a few post ago we need semisphere dmg calculation and not circle. When we do this we will see suicide from MD goin rampage.

Nerfing The splash DMG or adding safety will nerf to hell is area-denial use. for a weap to be area-denial YOU NEED TO FEAR IT. You need to know that walking in that area means death.
HOW can be an area denial weapon if you dont fear his dmg or with a running suit you can close the gap before the "SAFETY" activation and be safe from harm?
The only class that will lose to the MD Op want are us heavy. We are simply too slow

Considering that resistances aren't taken into account with splash damage (only direct) it's actually doing about 30% less damage to armor. When that bug gets fixed it's going to skyrocket both in power and use.

I really like the idea as it makes the MD good at what it's supposed to be used for. At the moment the MD excels in CQC and in long range because you don't even have to be accurate, just throw out some rounds and you win.

Personally I feel that the splash damage or radius should drop because it shouldn't be outright killing people with a few shots like it is now, it should be a support weapon getting assists in the double digits at least.

My proto Gallente suit has over 800hp and a proto MD can take me down to dangerous levels in just a few hits near to my feet. I have to stay on target a lot longer whilst they are shooting in my general area and killing me at the same time. The counter to this is to get closer but that doesn't work because they can still just blow me up.

Minimum arming distance should solve the problem of MD being used far too liberally in CQC, a problem which is compounded by the fact that you can get 3 or more people just shooting explosions everywhere.

This. Atm, the mass driver is not just a suppression weapon, it's also a CQC weapon as well as an area denial weapon. It fills all those roles too well and given the fact that it doesn't require much skill to aim at someone's feet and get the same results as the skilled players who are getting direct hits, the MD needs some tweaks.

The tweak to minimum range would remove it's ability in CQC (which is why you equip an SMG as a sidearm) and if you don't have a sidearm slot then you better be packing buddies who can keep you alive in close quarters.

Tl;dr - The mass driver should be a situational area denial weapon, not an explosive assault rifle with five meters splash radius.

The AR is good but not the best in all areas.

But seriously though, the MD has not been the same since 1.1, it got a buff in 1.2 and now it's fotm because it's better than it should be.

And to counter the point you will inevitably make saying GÇ£LOL the buff came in 1.1GÇ¥ I will promptly tell you that it takes time to skill up to proto in a weapon that nobody really cared about using.

Further to my main point, you're still ignoring the fact that the MD should be a situational weapon, it's why the United States military doesn't roll around exclusively in tanks or with the XM203 automatic grenade launcher, and also why only a few guys out of so many are equipped with M249's or M203 underslung launchers. It's because you don't need them all the time.

An AR type weapon (Assault Rifle, Scrambler Rifle, Rail Rifle, Combat Rifle) should always be the weapon of choice with other weapons being situational.

Being able to kill the user is what makes the MD AMAZING!

Killing yourself gives no penalties to you(except a death, which was already going to happen), plus it DENIES the enemy a kill. So I dont know why you wouldn't use it to kill yourself to stop some one from getting +1 Kill.

Since I didnt notice this stated before the MD is no where near OP, look at the combined CPU & PG requirements for all weapons:
136Swarm Launcher
122Heavy Machine Gun
118Mass Driver
117Plasma Cannon
117Forge Gun
107Sniper Rifle
107Shotgun
103Assault Rifle
102Laser Rifle
098Scrambler Rifle
067Submachine Guns
056Scrambler Pistol
056Nova Knives
047Flaylock Pistol

If you compare that to the damage output and range of the weapons, the MD pays for its power with high CPU & PG requirements.

You want the MD nerfed, GO SUCK A DUCK! then go back to playing with yourself / playing COD...

*sigh*
Guess I should just spend my SP on ARs and the Caldari Assault and pretend to have fun...

I don't often say this, but you are an idiot.

Do you know what area denial means?

Because I will tell you: It means not allowing a player to close that gap. If you're good with the mass driver you will be keeping enemies at bay, if you suck then they deserve to win in CQC. Go read a dictionary or something, ****.

^ exactly just rush the mass driver, I cant believe people are actually complaining about them In cqc. The assault md takes quite a few shots to kill people, and in my opinion tower assault forgeguns are way more of an issue. mass drivers are only very dangerous on top of high grounds, but isn't every weapon?

Man I'm torn on this, on one hand, it'd be kind of cool, on the other, it would act as a safe-guard for people who spam in CQC, they could just keep spamming, knowing it won't go off unless it reaches just far enough to not hurt them, and honestly the MD projectiles would still have to deal some sort of. probably fairly strong) direct damage even when unexploded. I kind of like the risk of suicide being a deterrent, or punishment.

The idea of a slow moving baseball sized rock working like a grenade is ridiculous. beyond that this would make the mass driver useless in close quarters. We already have a built in penalty for using a MD in close quarters and its called hitting yourself with splash damage.

Beyond this being one of the more ******** ideas for a weapon adjustment I've heard of, even from the people who don't use the MD, this doesn't change the fact that THIS CHANGE WOULD MAKE THE MD MORE NOOB TUBE NOT LESS.

If my round won't explode unless its 5m out and my MD has a 5m splash range after max skills you aren't stopping a MD user from 'noob tubeing' you, only removing his ability to hurt himself while leaving his ability to hurt you.

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE WHO DON'T MD TRY TO CHANGE MD. THINGS GET MORE BROKEN RATHER THEN FIXED!

I roll shotgun/flaylock on my scout and I do pretty well, it took me a little bit to adjust when they changed the splash radius and my ADV flaylock became the old STD flaylock, more or less, but I still get kills with it. If I only had the ISK to run my core flaylock on the reg, or if scouts were less poorly balanced, I'm sure I'd do better

I do think MD is balanced more or less as is right now, I just think this idea is kind of an interesting alternative that wouldn't change too much. But in the end I like the possible risk of suicide currently posed more than an arming range.

yea hit detection gets funky up super close and strafing/turning at full speed, makes my shotgun so sad

Did you even read the link?

At the moment the MD is not an area denial weapon, it's a kill everything at no matter what distance weapon.

As for your post Cross, you're right about me not being specced into them but I speak after playing games with my corpmate who specced into them long ago. I asked him to use one just to even the odds and he destroyed people with it. Guess what else he destroyed? A tank. I was lolling very hard due to the fact that not moments earlier I mockingly said GÇ£The MD is OP, use it to kill the tank!GÇ¥

He blew up the tank.

Really now guys.

Really.

I don't understand how this will make a difference, perhaps that is why it's being ignored?

The counter to removing self inflicted splash damage is surely to jump yourself as you fire, the solution offered by Cross will make no difference to this strategy.

The MD should be a situational area denial weapon, much like a sniper rifle is but at shorter ranges, namely: medium range.

Just because it applies to the AR, this does not mean it applies to ONLY the AR. What you are saying is that currently, the mass driver is being used as an assault rifle because GÇ£the hit detection sucksGÇ¥ for everything else. This is the same as saying GÇ£I can't hit people but I can when I can hit anything within a five meter radius.GÇ¥

Edit: And you clearly didn't read the part in a previous post where I said that an AR is supposed to fulfil all roles but excel in none. Like an AR is good at area denial if you can lead the target and stay on target, but the MD is better because you don't really need to aim and it does more damage to a wider area.

It would act as a safety for the many times a blind blueberry walks in front of my launcher and takes one in the back of the head. It would also help guard against the times I'm backpedaling while shooting and accidentally clip a corner and hurt myself.

I suppose it would also help train new users to fire behind rushing opponents to kill them without getting hurt too.

In fact the more I think about it the more I like the idea.

CCP safety the round to go off just beyond the effective splash radius, that will make me happy and it seems it will please the MD haters too. Win-win!

For once, is it possible for you to ignore someone's call for a nerf, especially one not supported by the majority of the Dust community, and leave a weapon well enough alone?

The MD haters want a technical solution for their tactical shortcomings. They feel that they should be impervious to damage at every range and that their AR should dominate all other weapons in the game in every situation. The real problem here lies in many players' inability to properly fit themselves, their wreckless tactics, and their indequate skills. Above all, the MD user thrives on the ignorance and stupidity of his opponents, and it is especially unforgiving against bad players with low HP fittings.

I don't understand what you're saying Cross.
Having the flat explosive system work more as a sphere would simply make the explosives work that much more effectively. The diameter of the explosion is still the same whether it's an actual radial sphere or not. That would in no way diminish it's cqc value.

The reason the MD is being used as a slayer weapon is because its stats allow for that.

This goes all the way back to Replication.

When the mass driver was first introduced it didn't have enough rounds in the chamber to kill anyone. 2 rounds. 3 rounds max. It was totally useless.
A bunch of us argued to simply give the damned thing the same damage as any basic locus grenade, but no, a bunch of people said it should have more rounds. That transformed the mass driver into the pain in the ass it is today.
Make it shoot grenades, cut the number of rounds back down to what CCP initially intended and BUMP UP it's damage to that of an actual grenade so that it can fulfill it's purpose; delivering 2 or 3 well-timed, well-placed grenades back to back. A support weapon.

400 HP damage grenades. But only shooting 2 or 3 at a time. It was never supposed to receive a clip size increase.
We all argued this waay back in closed beta.

Fixed it for you. But yes, we don't need this silly arming distance. If anything, there needs to be more risk than using it as an end all CQC weapon. I've rushed people in my Caldari shield suit with a shotgun, got right in their face, and all they had to do was spam the mass driver at their feet and jump to avoid the splash damage.

Fix explosions to be in a more of a D than a | pattern and we'll be fine.

No, you just aim behind the rushing fool. The splash still catches him.

Now keep in mind I'm only accepting a safety equaling the splash radius, so that's a very short distance.
Safety ranges are designed to protect be user, not the target so it needn't be any greater than the splash radius.

The upshot is completely eliminating sef inflicted injuries and the downside is just needing to fire to the do side and behind a melee opponent.

That's good news, and thanks for your reply earlier. As for what I meant by GÇ£all situationsGÇ¥ I mean pretty much how you explained it. The mass driver simply does too well in situations it is not supposed to be in and considering there is no damage falloff, an MD can kill someone very easily at range with much less accuracy than is required from the AR, SCR or sniper rifle.

As for knowing about the use of a mass driver, my corp mate specced into them way back and I asked if he would pick it up again. He constantly did well with it, watching people just jump ten feet in the air was funny but it was just cheap and too easy. He was rounding corners and taking guys out in CQC no problem and I've only seen him die to his own MD twice. We stopped using it because it just wasn't as fun or tactical as we both like.

Now for that 800 damage, it seems like that is exactly what must have occured, the guy got behind me for a split second and even though the explosion appeared at my feet when I was facing the guy, the various issue with the game compounded together in what ultimately was a very lucky shot for the guy.

I still think that the idea stated in the OP will keep the MD dangerous, but relegate it solely to the use of area denial, sitting behind the frontline being like a mortar. You wouldn't put infantry behind a mortar emplacement would you?

Edit: It should be up to the skill of the MD user to take out enemies at range before they reach the null range where charges don't detonate as opposed to what we have currently which is that MD's can be used at any range below sniper.

Two notes before a more substanentive response later.

#1 - If anyone has posted a response to my "the suggestion in the OP can't actually be mechanically viable" points I have yet to see it, can someone respond to this aspect or point me to a direct response?

#2 - Tonight I killed a Prototype Cal Logi with a Prototype Mass Driver in CQC using my 100% BPO fitting, and I did so with 40% shields remaining at the end of the battle. I will admit this is a bit above the arc of my average but it's not strikingly unusual... in the same game in the same suit I also caused 4 proto suited MD users to suicide when fighting me in low-mid/CQC ranges, only two of which managed to take me with them.

End of match tally, my free suit deaths 2, proto MD+Proto suit kills 5. I'll keep an eye on my MD deaths and kills in the future but so far my 'Exile' AR + BPO fit laughs in the face of proto MDs+proto suits.

0.02 ISK
Cross

The point is it is not the same since 1.1, because when the fixed the issue with splash damage not being properly dispersed due to small obstacles the weapon became considerably more effective, especially at close range. No explosive grenade launcher is suppose to be used as a CQC weapon. That is ludicrous.

I see where this QQ is going with the Mass Driver, and I think that a reduction in splash or direct explosive damage will ruin its effectiveness as an area denial weapon. I don't want that because I feel it is a capability that is needed in the game. Implementation of a minimum arming distance does not limit that capability. It only prevents players from spamming explosive projectiles in close quarters. A role that was probably never intended for the Mass Driver.

Anyone who is complaining about not being able to use the Mass Driver in close quarters sounds like a fool. It is a support weapon with a specific role in battle. You should be carrying a sidearm to compensate for the weapon's lack of close quarters capability, just like Snipers, Laser Riflemen and A/V Gunners do. If you are Logistics (like me) then you should be moving with another player that can provide you close quarters support....just like you are providing them with area suppression support.

You know the weapon mechanics are broken when you see Squads of players from the same team using a Mass Driver. Lightbulb moment.

So this is not really a nerf...it is just common sense. There is no real-world grenade launcher out there that does not implement minimum arming distance for the projectile. Just like the primary weapon used by most soldiers of every army is some type of assault rifle, which will always make it the most predominant weapon in warfare.

Yeah. I conceded that using 'real world' was not always the best way to support certain elements of in-game mechanic debates....a handful of posts above.

It still doesn't change the fact that a Grenade Launcher as a CQB weapon makes absolutely no sense at all. On that point I will not concede. So...difference of opinion I guess. But thanks for the input on the unrealistic elements found in a sci-fi shooter.

EDIT: Oh and suicide martyrdom tactics will never fly in my book as a standard viable tactic either. Clone or no clone, it's counter productive and not really a basis to keep a faulty physics in a game.

Well that is kind of a selfish perspecitve. I mean not every player has BPO's or suicidal tendencies. Seek professional help.

Shotguns should beast in CQB. I never have an issue with getting killed by a shotgunner at close range.

And Mass Drivers are not OP. Their damage levels are perfect. But minimum arming distance for the win.

Whoa whoa whoa...

I have to say I'm a little disappointed in a number of you and all this talk of GÇ£real worldGÇ¥ not having any relevance to a space sci-fi game.

Have any of you ever heard of GÇ£suspension of disbeliefGÇ¥?

Suspension of disbelief is the human brain's ability to believe in something wholly unreal based on how similar it is to the current limitations of our imaginations. In essence, it allows for the fantastic to seem possible.

This is why the assault rifle is shaped in a very similar way to current world assault rifles, it has a stock, magazine, trigger, grip, foreguard, barrel and even rails that we use for the attachment of optics or other weapon upgrades right now. These parts are familiar, so it doesn't seem ridiculous that I'm firing searing hot plasma from the end of what amounts to being about as plausible as a plasma fart from the backside of a cat.

Suspension of disbelief is also what makes the space sci-fi genre so fantastic, as it blends current design with a future vision of what we might have and allows to player not to think GÇ£lol this will never happenGÇ¥ and think GÇ£wow this could totally happen!GÇ¥

It's why the HMG is shaped like a minigun.

It's why the MD has the iconic six round chamber from current grenade launcher systems.

It's why the sniper rifle is long and has a fixed stock that looks strikingly similar to current tech.

Seeing tactics that simply do not fit with what a person expects from humans makes that tactic ridiculous. Sure we are immortal clone soldiers and that would probably bring tactics like suicide, but suicide from the MD is rarely intentional.

Suspension of disbelief is required for a sci-fi game, and dismissing real world examples is to dismiss psychology of humans, and also the design decisions that the art team have made, a dismissal which I personally find offensive.

I rest my case:

http://youtu.be/pi_LssfR2N0

lowratehitman knows the real deal.

So once again...Minimum Arming Distance...please and thank-you

The CQC he was showing would be outside any safety arming distance as he wasn't taking any splash himself so it wouldn't ate any difference.

But really, the whole concept of putting safety features on clone weapons is laughable lore wise.
We commit suicide rather than take a shower, so why decrease our combat effectiveness?

Just leave the MD how it is right now...?

A reasonable person, in this thread!? Those are few and far between my friend...

Agreed with what you posted, I too do not want to see ANY weapon nerfed into the ground, but when everybody starts using it just to compete (like the flaylock in the past) then something needs to be done. I personally see this as a nerf, but people seem to hear that word and think they should automatically be exempt from it's effects which is simply untrue.

What this GÇ£nerfGÇ¥ accomplishes is putting the mass driver into it's intend ed role, and if people disagree with that then they're either protecting the weapon out of blind love for being able to explosive spam any CQC area, or genuinely believe it's okay to do that and are simply wrong.

Sorry guys but when you can completely deny an area with explosives by being IN that area then that kind of defeats the object in the long run.

Why are you such a douche seriously? Using a GÇ£moron thing called tacticsGÇ¥ is entirely uncalled for especially when I use tactics. There is no counter to grenade spam when the enemy is moving on an objective. Area denial is fine but not indefinitely. I find myself switching to sniper in a lot of games because there's just no point in trying to take an objective if the enemy has a few mass drivers, so my tactic is to pick them off and let my buddy go in and charge them.

A futile tactic on many maps because objectives aren't always open to snipers or the enemy is dug in behind something where they simply lob grenades over a wall until the match ends. Now I wouldn't mind that at all if sneaking up behind him or rushing him didn't result in him spinning on a dime and blasting my feet twice for an easy kill.

What are these tactics that you are using? Staying about 30m away and pegging him? Because I have no luck with that when 3 or 4 shells are already heading in my direction.

Edit: The purpose of area denial is to keep the enemy out, and you in. By constantly blowing yourself up you are not providing area denial so let's continue the circle of providing/not providing area denial and keep doing/not doing what your weapon was designed to do/not do.

The thing is, yeah it's easy enough to take out a solo MD user but they are rarely alone and it's in these situations where it excels far too well in the CQC environment.

For example:
- I am running lone wolf in my proto suit because I am rich. I come across a nooblet and train my sights on his face. He immediately finds cover because I am stupid and didn't see the cover but he is almost 0 health. I run around the corner to chase the kill because I am still stupid but OH NO he has a friend with a mass driver.

I now have only three options, all of which have failed in the past:
- I close the distance and CQC him.
- I stay where I am, finishing off the nooblet anf then killing the MD friend.
- I run away.

The only one that could work is to kill them both, which is rather unlikely before he gets 3 poorly placed shots at my ankles.

Running away doesn't work because he can shoot around corners via splash damage.

Taking this into a full game dynamic there are also other players to account for and so this will inevitably lead to my premature death. The only tactic is to sit back and pick at people from a distance unless I use a mass driver myself.

No, this idea is just horrible, and would hurt the balance of the weapon by making it more powerful.

I say this because it is a viable tactic to run into the face of someone using a Mass Driver in order to make their own shots hurt them as well.

Quite often I have run into a Mass Driver users face and got the assist as they killed themselves, or made them less willing to shot at such close range, sometimes forcing them to change to a sidearm.

This. dea would remove that tactic and provide a safety for dummies. If someone makes the mistake of shooting at close range and hurting themselves, that is their fault. Do not take away this viable tactic to use against the Mass Driver.

The sad thing is the devs listened to this idea. This should be seen as an obvious self serving idea that should have been disregarded. Far too many people just request something to help themselves instead of improving the game.

Uhm Steve, the guy is agreeing with you...

Steve has a good grasp on the subject :)