Idea from RydogV in another mass driver *****-a-thon thread:



Basically the MD round won't "explode" within the minimum distance and will only deal direct damage to someone if the round hits them. Seems like an idea that should have been in the game already.

I'd say the minimum distance should be 5 meters since that's the highest blast radius of the weapon but perhaps it could be even further. What do you all think?

This is seriously a terrible idea. Just bring back the old arc trajectory physics from Chrome. Slower rounds and a drastic dropoff will force players to fight at a distance and have to arc the muzzle upwards, making the weapon clumsy to use in CQC.

Considering that resistances aren't taken into account with splash damage (only direct) it's actually doing about 30% less damage to armor. When that bug gets fixed it's going to skyrocket both in power and use.

It all comes back to what I say about every nerf stop crying about what kills you and step your game up. I hate being killed by Plasma cannons but they are difficult to use and is a weapon more likely to get you killed then get you kills so I respect it also hate being killed by people who chuck grenades instead of shooting people but do I come crying to the forums.

This. Atm, the mass driver is not just a suppression weapon, it's also a CQC weapon as well as an area denial weapon. It fills all those roles too well and given the fact that it doesn't require much skill to aim at someone's feet and get the same results as the skilled players who are getting direct hits, the MD needs some tweaks.

The tweak to minimum range would remove it's ability in CQC (which is why you equip an SMG as a sidearm) and if you don't have a sidearm slot then you better be packing buddies who can keep you alive in close quarters.

Tl;dr - The mass driver should be a situational area denial weapon, not an explosive assault rifle with five meters splash radius.

I think a better solution would be to get the "flat" splash damage fixed. If explosions were occurring in a sphere rather than a circle the CQC value of explosives would be reduced for any player who does not wish to commit suicide.

I'm also dubious about taking more choices out of the players hands, making it "you can't shoot within X range" is a lot more heavy handed than "if you shoot within X range you'll blow yourself up". If we're talking "real world" there's very little reason for an immortal clone solider to have the kind of safety feature described because their loss factor is all in ISK and sometimes it's more effective to take a loss of your own gear while destroying that of the hostile force, so for clones in disposable bodies it just doesn't make sense.

The other, and much bigger issue, is that the MD is a suppression weapon which has been under Uprising geared more and more towards direct/'slayer' combat. This is very much the wrong direction to be taking the MD. Making it more focused on direct/high damage and less on moderate/dispersion (aka splash) damage puts the weapon more and more into direct competition with other offerings in regards to its battlefield role. Dust needs more diversity not less, changes which make the MD function more like the AR in role are going to be bad changes, if they fill the same role or nearly the same role the direct competition will nearly always render one of them fundamentally inferior, replacing greater game diversity (as is the case with the more area denial MD of Chrome) with greater game imbalance (as will be the case if the MD is biased into be a direct/'slayer' primary weapon).

0.02 ISK
Cross

I don't understand how this will make a difference, perhaps that is why it's being ignored?

The counter to removing self inflicted splash damage is surely to jump yourself as you fire, the solution offered by Cross will make no difference to this strategy.

The MD should be a situational area denial weapon, much like a sniper rifle is but at shorter ranges, namely: medium range.

If the safety was implemented, what do you think of the idea that a direct hit would still do damage but not explode if within the minimum arming distance?

I don't understand what you're saying Cross.
Having the flat explosive system work more as a sphere would simply make the explosives work that much more effectively. The diameter of the explosion is still the same whether it's an actual radial sphere or not. That would in no way diminish it's cqc value.

The reason the MD is being used as a slayer weapon is because its stats allow for that.

This goes all the way back to Replication.

When the mass driver was first introduced it didn't have enough rounds in the chamber to kill anyone. 2 rounds. 3 rounds max. It was totally useless.
A bunch of us argued to simply give the damned thing the same damage as any basic locus grenade, but no, a bunch of people said it should have more rounds. That transformed the mass driver into the pain in the ass it is today.
Make it shoot grenades, cut the number of rounds back down to what CCP initially intended and BUMP UP it's damage to that of an actual grenade so that it can fulfill it's purpose; delivering 2 or 3 well-timed, well-placed grenades back to back. A support weapon.

400 HP damage grenades. But only shooting 2 or 3 at a time. It was never supposed to receive a clip size increase.
We all argued this waay back in closed beta.

Thank you for both the information and the further look into the matter.
Armed with this new info I now need to pull together a testing protocol for how those pesky scouts (and some Cal suits) are capable of using AoE weapons against me at close range without taking visible health damage themselves (up to this point I was sure it was circle vs sphere related which anecdotally seemed to fit the facts)

Again, thanks for the update
Cross

By GÇ£too good in CQCGÇ¥ I mean that if I'm running around a corner and there just happens to be a guy with a mass driver, I'm screwed even in my proto suit. If I close the gap to suicidal levels for that player, then I can't keep my aim no matter what I'm using and hopefully I don't need to tell you that the problem is not remotely related to my skill at aiming. If I try and run away back around the corner, not only can he still hit me by shooting the floor where I was, but the user of the MD doesn't have to aim much to kill me in two or three shots at the optimal range of whatever weapon I'm holding (yes it's usually the AR but that still requires careful aiming)..

Trust me, it is spherical. I can see the sphere on my screen right now :-)

On my local server it is literally impossible to drop shells at my feet and not take damage whilst jumping. There is a good chance the issues you are seeing are related to latency so the sphere (or the character) on the client and the server are not in exactly the same place. This would explain why it sometimes feels 'off'.

We've made further improvements to hit detection/lag compensation in the 1.4 release and will continue to do more in 1.5 so we should see things getting better.

The other thing to consider is that in first person distances can seem a lot closer than they actually are. So you think it went off very close to you but it was actually a fair bit further away.

Lastly, the guns do have both kick and dispersion.

Ok dokey...

In the case of a direct hit only direct damage is applied to the target. Splash is not applied to the target but will be applied to any others that happen to be in range.

A headshot modifier would apply if the explosion hits your head. A series of checks are done to different body parts and splash is applied to the first one it hits (typically not the head). I would need to check on vehicles, I'm not sure how splash is applied to the regular body Vs weak spots.

You know the weapon mechanics are broken when you see Squads of players from the same team using a Mass Driver. Lightbulb moment.

So this is not really a nerf...it is just common sense. There is no real-world grenade launcher out there that does not implement minimum arming distance for the projectile. Just like the primary weapon used by most soldiers of every army is some type of assault rifle, which will always make it the most predominant weapon in warfare.

The reference to a whole Squad of Mass Driver users was noted to show how a weapon has moved outside its intended role. Assault Rifles are general purpose weapons that one would expect to see predominate in any Squad.

And I am not buying any argument that tries to place diversity above sensible mechanics. Sorry...I do not value diversity as much as others. Call it personal preference. I realize that bringing real world into game world is not always the best way to make a point. Real world, game world...whatever....classifying a Grenade Launcher as a CQB weapon makes zero sense.

As for 'under the hood'. Most shooters I have ever played made launched grenades non-explosive at close range. So I am pretty sure it will not take exceptional development skill to make it work.

The reference to a whole Squad of Mass Driver users

[REQUEST] Minimum Arming Distance on Mass Driver - https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1157781#post1157781
Status: This a decent idea, we may take this into account next time we look at the Mass Driver.

No, this idea is just horrible, and would hurt the balance of the weapon by making it more powerful.

I say this because it is a viable tactic to run into the face of someone using a Mass Driver in order to make their own shots hurt them as well.

Quite often I have run into a Mass Driver users face and got the assist as they killed themselves, or made them less willing to shot at such close range, sometimes forcing them to change to a sidearm.

This idea would remove that tactic and provide a safety for dummies. If someone makes the mistake of shooting at close range and hurting themselves, that is their fault. Do not take away this viable tactic to use against the Mass Driver.

The sad thing is the devs listened to this idea. This should be seen as an obvious self serving idea that should have been disregarded. Far too many people just request something to help themselves instead of improving the game.