DUST Search - Actual Data for OP weapon use and OPness

ZDub 303 wrote:

loumanchew wrote:

I'm curious, why should everything be built around PC? So that it can serve the elitists better?

How many people are playing this game casually? How many play in ambush, oms, dom, squirmish the majority of the time? Where is the majority of customers that this game needs to stay alive?

My point is that if everything is balanced regarding the elitist endgame, you will never have the population pool that you need to make PC interesting in the first place because ppl will quit before reaching that stage.

I don't think you understand what i'm saying at all. Its not 'building the game around elitists'. But understand that PC is a major part of this game, despite the relatively low participation of players.

More importantly, its the fact that PC represents a battle where all players are coordinated and tactics are preplanned. This is actually competitive play, unlike most public matches. It is much better to balance weapons based off their usage in competitive play and not their usage in public matches which suffer from poor matchmaking among other things.

Changes need to be made with both game modes in mind. In PC you almost never see murder taxi'ing but that doesn't mean it doesn't need to be fixed.

In pubs you don't see the same FP/FLG problems as you do in PC, but it also needs to be fixed.

Nerfing murder taxis wont do anything to PC, but it will help pubs alot.
Nerfing FLGs and FPs wont do a ton of impact to pubs, but will help PC matches a lot.

You see where i'm going here?

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ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 705	Posted - 2013.07.09 03:26:00 - [181] - Quote Here you go Buster, I was able to get permission to post some metrics. Total kills from 4 games (took me two hours to put this all together, I have 8 games total so I'll try to add more in a few days). Heavy Machine Gun 175 Assault Rifle 157 Shotgun 98 Flaylock Pistol 98 Fused Locus Grenades 79 Tank Turrets/Installations 43 Core/M1 Locus 33 Remote Explosives 33 Precision Strike 33 Sniper Rifle 30 Mass Driver 18 Melee 17 Forge Gun 15 Submachine Gun 15 Scrambler Rifle 15 'Cavity' M2 Contact 14 Nova Knives 6 Dropship 5 LAV 2 AV Grenade 1 Flux Grenade 1 All you can glean from this is that PC is a completely different style of play, and balance changes need to be made with PC in mind as well. Btw, these games were all before the triple SP week, FP numbers are up considerably since then with the influx of SP.
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 191	Posted - 2013.07.09 03:34:00 - [182] - Quote I'm glad to see Gallente technology at the top of the list..... now if we could just create an effective AV weapon.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 62	Posted - 2013.07.09 03:58:00 - [183] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Here you go Buster, I was able to get permission to post some metrics. Total kills from 4 games (took me two hours to put this all together, I have 8 games total so I'll try to add more in a few days). Heavy Machine Gun 175 Assault Rifle 157 Shotgun 98 Flaylock Pistol 98 Fused Locus Grenades 79 Tank Turrets/Installations 43 Core/M1 Locus 33 Remote Explosives 33 Precision Strike 33 Sniper Rifle 30 Mass Driver 18 Melee 17 Forge Gun 15 Submachine Gun 15 Scrambler Rifle 15 'Cavity' M2 Contact 14 Nova Knives 6 Dropship 5 LAV 2 AV Grenade 1 Flux Grenade 1 All you can glean from this is that PC is a completely different style of play, and balance changes need to be made with PC in mind as well. Btw, these games were all before the triple SP week, FP numbers are up considerably since then with the influx of SP. Wow, the sheer difference is honestly incredible, it literally is a different world altogether.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 896	Posted - 2013.07.09 04:00:00 - [184] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Here you go Buster, I was able to get permission to post some metrics. Total kills from 4 games (took me two hours to put this all together, I have 8 games total so I'll try to add more in a few days). Heavy Machine Gun 175 Assault Rifle 157 Shotgun 98 Flaylock Pistol 98 Fused Locus Grenades 79 Tank Turrets/Installations 43 Core/M1 Locus 33 Remote Explosives 33 Precision Strike 33 Sniper Rifle 30 Mass Driver 18 Melee 17 Forge Gun 15 Submachine Gun 15 Scrambler Rifle 15 'Cavity' M2 Contact 14 Nova Knives 6 Dropship 5 LAV 2 AV Grenade 1 Flux Grenade 1 All you can glean from this is that PC is a completely different style of play, and balance changes need to be made with PC in mind as well. Btw, these games were all before the triple SP week, FP numbers are up considerably since then with the influx of SP. ................ Someone got killed by a flux grenade?
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 705	Posted - 2013.07.09 04:02:00 - [185] - Quote its all or nothing point defense in skirmish. Its what happens when you get 32, skilled and coordinated players in the same match. probably 90% of the battles happen within 30m of an objective, so it should come as no surprised that CQC effective weapons are most popular. Sentinels are designed for point defense, may sound pointless in pubs but they are gods in PC (not saying OP, they do what they were designed for and do it well). Fused Locus should come as no surprise, its P2W and people will do anything to take the win. FP numbers are because FPs are godly in CQC near an objective, waaaaay too powerful in PC.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 705	Posted - 2013.07.09 04:03:00 - [186] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: ................ Someone got killed by a flux grenade? Its a known bug, if you have 0 shields and you get hit by a flux it will 1 shot you. Should be fixed in 1.3 according to the devs.
Meldreth Thornbrew DUST University Ivy League 0	Posted - 2013.07.09 04:25:00 - [187] - Quote Did you account for the fact that ar, snipers, smg, lav impact are all default weapons while the flaylok isn't? Its no wonder these are high on the list. There are too many variables that make your small data collection meaningless. Examples are: life of character/player, game knowledge, character sp, minimal data collection, play style, flaylok is a tier 3 secondary., etc... Like someone posted fairly early in the thread, just because they aren't the most popular doesn't mean they aren't overpowered/imbalanced. Other things can contribute to usage like I posted.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 896	Posted - 2013.07.09 04:28:00 - [188] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Delta 749 wrote: ................ Someone got killed by a flux grenade? Its a known bug, if you have 0 shields and you get hit by a flux it will 1 shot you. Should be fixed in 1.3 according to the devs. Ah I see, I have never run into that
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 351	Posted - 2013.07.09 14:46:00 - [189] - Quote The issue with the SCR has less to do with numbers and more to do with the fact that it isnt hit scan, its projectile. It is a FAST projectile, but it is one none the less. It is much much much harder to hit folks who are straifing with the SCR because you cant just stick your aim on them and follow them, you have to predict. This also counters most FPS muscle memory for a twitch type gun like the SCR (uncharged). I love my SCR, I really do, but its best used as a assault sniper rifle then an AR. But back to the Flaylock. The whole conversation about numbers is silly. The AR is going to out kill the Flaylock because of range. The flaylock is effective over a more limited range. However in its range, its an auto-win button. On top of that, the SP investment to make the flaylock god-mode is high. I am sitting on over a 1mil SP from the 3x SP event, I could go ahead and get myself into core flaylock, but I am betting on a nerf and dont do PC right now so why spend it to dominate cheaply in pub matches? The splash radius of all 3 flaylocks needs to be normalized, same with MD (and id say nades too). Its one thing to make weapons a bit stronger at higher levels, its another to make them easier to use. All 3 flaylocks should be about the advanced level splash, maybe a bit lower. It would then be a niche weapon that takes skill and would be great to finish people off who ran/hid.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1026	Posted - 2013.07.09 15:31:00 - [190] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Here you go Buster, I was able to get permission to post some metrics. Total kills from 4 games (took me two hours to put this all together, I have 8 games total so I'll try to add more in a few days). Heavy Machine Gun 175 Assault Rifle 157 Shotgun 98 Flaylock Pistol 98 Fused Locus Grenades 79 Tank Turrets/Installations 43 Core/M1 Locus 33 Remote Explosives 33 Precision Strike 33 Sniper Rifle 30 Mass Driver 18 Melee 17 Forge Gun 15 Submachine Gun 15 Scrambler Rifle 15 'Cavity' M2 Contact 14 Nova Knives 6 Dropship 5 LAV 2 AV Grenade 1 Flux Grenade 1 All you can glean from this is that PC is a completely different style of play, and balance changes need to be made with PC in mind as well. Btw, these games were all before the triple SP week, FP numbers are up considerably since then with the influx of SP. Thanks ZDub. So, my interpretation. FP is the highest used sidearm by a fair margin, about 3 to 1, so this does indicate an issue IMHO. However, we still see AR as number 2, glad to see it isn't number 1. And we see, surprisingly, I might add that Shotguns are as useful as FP. This to me says that the FP needs to have more fitting requirements. Even though it's a sidearm, maybe it needs to have fitting costs similar to a light weapon. Scrambler rifle kills are still sad. I'm glad to see HMG up there. Anyway, thanks for the data ZDub. Frankly, in total, this looks more balanced than pub play though (at least prior to x3 SP) and aside from contact grenades, which are obviously used a lot more than in pubs. Honestly though, it does look more balanced than pubs.

ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 718	Posted - 2013.07.09 15:47:00 - [191] - Quote Keep in mind though that a lot of people aren't using FPs in these games either. logis dont generally fit them(even there are only usually 1-2 per team) and heavies are blasting with their HMG most of the time. The fact that FPs, Shotguns, and FLGs are so close is really sad imo. Regardless, most people who participate in PC will say the flaylock is OP. I know you, and a lot of people, don't play PC, so just please take the word of people who do play in PC, and understand that its a big problem. It doesn't need much of a change, and I don't care if its powerful, but its outperforming LWs in a lot of cases now... and thats sad. FLGs are just as big of a problem in PC, but i'm pretty sure CCP is leaving FLGs as they are... they need the income from such pay to win items such as FLGs. I agree on the ScR kills, it needs work for sure... AR is still far superior of a weapon. Thats because ScRs need a buff though, ARs don't need a nerf.
loumanchew Ametat Security Amarr Empire 91	Posted - 2013.07.09 15:49:00 - [192] - Quote I'm curious, why should everything be built around PC? So that it can serve the elitists better? How many people are playing this game casually? How many play in ambush, oms, dom, squirmish the majority of the time? Where is the majority of customers that this game needs to stay alive? My point is that if everything is balanced regarding the elitist endgame, you will never have the population pool that you need to make PC interesting in the first place because ppl will quit before reaching that stage.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1026	Posted - 2013.07.09 15:52:00 - [193] - Quote loumanchew wrote: I'm curious, why should everything be built around PC? So that it can serve the elitists better? How many people are playing this game casually? How many play in ambush, oms, dom, squirmish the majority of the time? Where is the majority of customers that this game needs to stay alive? My point is that if everything is balanced regarding the elitist endgame, you will never have the population pool that you need to make PC interesting in the first place because ppl will quit before reaching that stage. This is my argument against balancing solely based on PC - that this isn't the game most of us play, so you're essentially balancing a different game. The counter argument is that PC is where the best players play (I'm not convinced of this as the entry requirements for PC are only that you're in a big enough corp, not that you're good). PC, still, is part of this game, and needs balance considerations too. Personally, I think it should be secondary to the game the vast majority plays though.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 719	Posted - 2013.07.09 15:55:00 - [194] - Quote loumanchew wrote: I'm curious, why should everything be built around PC? So that it can serve the elitists better? How many people are playing this game casually? How many play in ambush, oms, dom, squirmish the majority of the time? Where is the majority of customers that this game needs to stay alive? My point is that if everything is balanced regarding the elitist endgame, you will never have the population pool that you need to make PC interesting in the first place because ppl will quit before reaching that stage. I don't think you understand what i'm saying at all. Its not 'building the game around elitists'. But understand that PC is a major part of this game, despite the relatively low participation of players. More importantly, its the fact that PC represents a battle where all players are coordinated and tactics are preplanned. This is actually competitive play, unlike most public matches. It is much better to balance weapons based off their usage in competitive play and not their usage in public matches which suffer from poor matchmaking among other things. Changes need to be made with both game modes in mind. In PC you almost never see murder taxi'ing but that doesn't mean it doesn't need to be fixed. In pubs you don't see the same FP/FLG problems as you do in PC, but it also needs to be fixed. Nerfing murder taxis wont do anything to PC, but it will help pubs alot. Nerfing FLGs and FPs wont do a ton of impact to pubs, but will help PC matches a lot. You see where i'm going here?
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1026	Posted - 2013.07.09 15:57:00 - [195] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: loumanchew wrote: I'm curious, why should everything be built around PC? So that it can serve the elitists better? How many people are playing this game casually? How many play in ambush, oms, dom, squirmish the majority of the time? Where is the majority of customers that this game needs to stay alive? My point is that if everything is balanced regarding the elitist endgame, you will never have the population pool that you need to make PC interesting in the first place because ppl will quit before reaching that stage. I don't think you understand what i'm saying at all. Its not 'building the game around elitists'. But understand that PC is a major part of this game, despite the relatively low participation of players. More importantly, its the fact that PC represents a battle where all players are coordinated and tactics are preplanned. This is actually competitive play, unlike most public matches. It is much better to balance weapons based off their usage in competitive play and not their usage in public matches which suffer from poor matchmaking among other things. Changes need to be made with both game modes in mind. In PC you almost never see murder taxi'ing but that doesn't mean it doesn't need to be fixed. In pubs you don't see the same FP/FLG problems as you do in PC, but it also needs to be fixed. Nerfing murder taxis wont do anything to PC, but it will help pubs alot. Nerfing FLGs and FPs wont do a ton of impact to pubs, but will help PC matches a lot. You see where i'm going here? I tried to add your point of view to mine in response to this question. Thanks for replying. For the record, I agree with this so long as considerations are made for both "games" and that the population in PC isn't too small to have meaningful numbers for balance purposes. I'm assuming that there are enough players, but I guess CCP should know.
loumanchew Ametat Security Amarr Empire 92	Posted - 2013.07.09 16:13:00 - [196] - Quote Yes and I agree with you. Taxis are cheap, and so are flaylocks I must admit even though I like the weapon. When I see ppl dual wielding and just spamming contact grenades with a squad in pub matches I am reminded why this game makes ppl leave so fast. To be honest I have been using the lvl 3 flaylock and it isn't that easy to hit with it. When I use it I don't feel OP because It's rare that I can kill someone with it if they are moving and at full health. I use it I believe, the way it was intended too: when I run out of bullets on my main weapon, to finish up someone in CQC or for suppressive fire when I see my mates are in trouble. I think the lvl 3 should be the lvl 5 and the lvl 5 be the officer. The other solution is leave it as is and make it impossible to use a sidearm in a light weapon slot and change the extra ammo on the assault suit to something else. I think the main problem with the flaylock is the abuse possible with the minmatar assault suit. Other than that I will take on a ''flaylocker'' any day with an AR.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 719	Posted - 2013.07.09 16:16:00 - [197] - Quote Im pretty sure thats all anyone is asking. normalize the blast radius and maybe a touch less splash damage.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1027	Posted - 2013.07.09 16:17:00 - [198] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Im pretty sure thats all anyone is asking. normalize the blast radius and maybe a touch less splash damage. Well, frankly, I'm pretty sure that isn't all that anyone is asking, but that is all that reasonable people are asking.
loumanchew Ametat Security Amarr Empire 92	Posted - 2013.07.09 16:37:00 - [199] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Im pretty sure thats all anyone is asking. normalize the blast radius and maybe a touch less splash damage. Well, frankly, I'm pretty sure that isn't all that anyone is asking, but that is all that reasonable people are asking. Touch+¬
Eno Raef KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 17	Posted - 2013.07.09 16:55:00 - [200] - Quote You only played 4 matches. Log data from 30 if you want better representative results. Four matches are not representative of the entire Dust population.

Buster Friently Rosen Association 1037	Posted - 2013.07.09 17:03:00 - [201] - Quote Eno Raef wrote: You only played 4 matches. Log data from 30 matches if you want better representative results. A sample size of four matches is not representative of all dust matches. Unfortunately, without a record of data the results can be easily manipulated in this case so it may be difficult to trust. Please, actually make some attempt to at least finish reading the OP. After that, you might want to at least peruse the thread some before exposing your ignorance. Regarding your edit. Agreed, there's not much I can do other than say that I didn't manipulate the data. If you look though, my results, regarding pub matches, are somewhat corroborated by Cruxio's data.
Skipper Jones ZionTCD 292	Posted - 2013.07.09 17:15:00 - [202] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: The splash radius of all 3 flaylocks needs to be normalized, same with MD (and id say nades too). Its one thing to make weapons a bit stronger at higher levels I only think that FP splash radius should be reduced. And ONLY the FP. The FP is basically a miniature Mass Driver, and if the miniature version of something is just as effective as the regular version.....then there is a problem. The FP fires mini rockets at a quick rate. Maybe CCP could lower the DMG but give it more rounds? Maybe also a little less range? Then It would turn out to have quick firing, mini rockets, 8 rounds in it but lower DMG and splash radius. They way to solve the FLG is to get rid of contact grenades in general. Contact grenades are the only pay to win item in the game... and you don't want the game to have a little P2W in it? Do you CCP?
Eno Raef KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 17	Posted - 2013.07.09 17:19:00 - [203] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Eno Raef wrote: You only played 4 matches. Log data from 30 matches if you want better representative results. A sample size of four matches is not representative of all dust matches. Unfortunately, without a record of data the results can be easily manipulated in this case so it may be difficult to trust. Please, actually make some attempt to at least finish reading the OP. After that, you might want to at least peruse the thread some before exposing your ignorance. Regarding your edit. Agreed, there's not much I can do other than say that I didn't manipulate the data. If you look though, my results, regarding pub matches, are somewhat corroborated by Cruxio's data.
Superluminal Replicant Planetary Response Organization 93	Posted - 2013.07.09 18:12:00 - [204] - Quote Totally agree with original poster, that the AR is indeed an incredibly overpowered weapon and the reason most players use it. it needs a seriously massive nerf to get these players to try some other weapon and make the game more fun. Every time I die in a pub match; which isn't much these days, but every time I do it's 99% likely to be from one of the overpowered Assault Rifles that everyone uses. I find it kind of sad really, I enjoy using my proto forge and proto flaylock heavy, I don't want to be some overpowered AR ***.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 754	Posted - 2013.07.09 18:15:00 - [205] - Quote Superluminal Replicant wrote: Totally agree with original poster, that the AR is indeed an incredibly overpowered weapon and the reason most players use it. it needs a seriously massive nerf to get these players to try some other weapon and make the game more fun. Every time I die in a pub match; which isn't much these days, but every time I do it's 99% likely to be from one of the overpowered Assault Rifles that everyone uses. I find it kind of sad really, I enjoy using my proto forge and proto flaylock heavy, I don't want to be some overpowered AR ***. What other gun? Would you prefer we were all snipers instead? Or should we all run around with dual flaylocks? Come on... there isnt much variety of weaponry as it is. The only alternative to assault rifles atm is scrambler rifles... which is just an assault rifle with overheat.
Skipper Jones ZionTCD 300	Posted - 2013.07.09 19:12:00 - [206] - Quote Superluminal Replicant wrote: Totally agree with original poster, that the AR is indeed an incredibly overpowered weapon and the reason most players use it. it needs a seriously massive nerf to get these players to try some other weapon and make the game more fun. Every time I die in a pub match; which isn't much these days, but every time I do it's 99% likely to be from one of the overpowered Assault Rifles that everyone uses. I find it kind of sad really, I enjoy using my proto forge and proto flaylock heavy, I don't want to be some overpowered AR ***. Nooo. The reason everybody uses it is because of two reasons 1) THEY START THE GAME WITH IT. A new player that comes in the game will think "Here's an assault rifle. It's free" They give them free ARs, they get comfortable with it, and continue to use it. You people don't understand that. 2) It is a comfortable weapon. It doesn't require much skill to use it and it is in every other FPS. People feel comfortable with guns that they've played with before. The AR is not OP. And no, I don't use the AR, I use the AScR
RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 269	Posted - 2013.07.11 06:20:00 - [207] - Quote Skipper Jones wrote: Superluminal Replicant wrote: Totally agree with original poster, that the AR is indeed an incredibly overpowered weapon and the reason most players use it. it needs a seriously massive nerf to get these players to try some other weapon and make the game more fun. Every time I die in a pub match; which isn't much these days, but every time I do it's 99% likely to be from one of the overpowered Assault Rifles that everyone uses. I find it kind of sad really, I enjoy using my proto forge and proto flaylock heavy, I don't want to be some overpowered AR ***. Nooo. The reason everybody uses it is because of two reasons 1) THEY START THE GAME WITH IT. A new player that comes in the game will think "Here's an assault rifle. It's free" They give them free ARs, they get comfortable with it, and continue to use it. You people don't understand that. 2) It is a comfortable weapon. It doesn't require much skill to use it and it is in every other FPS. People feel comfortable with guns that they've played with before. The AR is not OP. And no, I don't use the AR, I use the AScR I was just going to say exactly this. Just because the US army uses the M4 or M16, doesn't mean it's the best gun ever. It has positives and negatives that come with it. Compare it to a Kalshnikov of any variant. AK's use higher caliber rounds and inflict more terrible injuries (higher damage) where the M4 and M16 have more accuracy at longer ranges. What this boils down to is that players will use something that is comfortable for them, and the AR does that. It has good damage, good range and a decent mag size, and great accuracy. The scrambler is better than an AR in all of these aspects except that it overheats. Why aren't players using it instead? Because it's a Kalashnikov and they grew up shooting their dad's M16. Edit: I realise that a civilian can't get a military grade M16 in the US, but they can get close to it with any standard AR-15 model.
Slen Kaleth XCOM ENEMY UNKNOWN 5	Posted - 2013.07.11 14:50:00 - [208] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Vin Vicious wrote: Just because a gun isn't used by everyone doesn't mean it's not OP, I just debunked your whole thread that you prob took 1-2hours to make, which means I'm OP /thread If they were so OP, they wouldn't be rare. In other words, if you think something is OP, put SP into it and see for yourself. Btw, how do you explain ARs getting so many more kills than scrambler rifles? I see SRs all the time, so a lot of people use them. I think you forget that because you have to Spec into it is why it is not as common even if it is OP. This isn't CoD where you can pick up just about any weapon once you gain the right level. It takes time to Spec into the weapon you want and switching mid point feels like a waste of effort especially if you are also trying to Spec into Proto gear in other trees. That's my 2 cents on it and why I haven't spaced into FP yet.
Zyrus Amalomyn Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 227	Posted - 2013.07.11 22:40:00 - [209] - Quote LOL if you think four anecdotal matches is representative of the hundreds of battles going on elsewhere. Get back to me when you have REAL statistics, not just this bullshit.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 817	Posted - 2013.07.11 23:04:00 - [210] - Quote In SF2 the majority of players don't use Akuma. Akuma is still OP, and Akuma is still banned from tournaments. Popularity does not dictate power.



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