So, I've seen, and commented on, the typical "it's not AR so nerf it posts" and have tried to explain that just because something kills you, but isn't an AR, that doesn't mean it's OP.


Totals for all four matches combined:

Assault Rifle 100
Turrets 65
Sniper Rifle 44
HMG 37
Impact 35
SMG 34
Grenades 27
Misc 26
Mass Driver 20
Flaylock 16
Scrambler Rifle 13
Strike 12
Shotgun 10
Swarm Launcher 8
Forge Gun 5
Laser Rifle 5
Melee 1
RE 1
Unknown 1
Scrambler Pistol
Plasma Cannon
Nova Knives

.

I just did something similar, but I didn't break it down exactly like you did. I did not record kills that I could not connect the weapon with, and I watched my sister play a forge gunner and she is one mean forge gun sniper. Watched her play 4 domination matches. I put turrets and ramming under vehicle, and explosion as grenades and remote. During the fist match I was positive that flaylocks were going to dominate as they did outgunned ARs after recording the first game but then the numbers changed fast for the other three matches.

AR--115
MD--24
Shotgun--1
HMG--14
Scram R--7
Scram P--3
Sniper--95
Swarm--5
Laser--1
PC -- 0
Subs--20
NK -- 0
Flaylock--20
Forge Gun--20
Vehicle--36
Instalations--19
Explosion--18
OB --17
Melee--2

There isn't enough data compiled here in order to generate statistics with relatively low error.

Ok, read the rest of the sentence please. It's not a tautology, I was merely defining the acronym OP for clarity. Is that OK?

I might have judged too quick there, mea culpa.

So i take it this is the proposed definition:

"More desireable, thus more people use it, thus it hurts diversity."

Let me know if this is incorrect while i think about it.

Actually it does, please see this:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=995224#post995224

Aside from that, it is still clear, by the numbers that the Flaylock, or MD, or whatever - non AR - is certainly not OP.

What does OP stand for? OverPowered

It does not mean OverUsed


please stop posting

So much bad logic, I really hope CCP doesn't listen to a word you're saying buster. No offense.

Overpowered, means that the weapon is a problem.

See, every weapon is overpowered in it's niche, so the fact that someone kills you with it, or they do well with it, or even that you always die to it, doesn't make a weapon OP.

What makes a weapon OP is that it's a problem, specifically a problem for diversity by encouraging people to use that weapon over other weapons because it's "EZ" mode. Therefore, OP does mean overused - precisely. Overused relative to the other weapons.

That's the basic idea yeah, that if something is desirable enough that it's squeezing out diversity, then it's OP. This, I take to be a non-subjective, i.e objective, measure of OP.

For the record, even though light and medium suits have a total of 12 weapon types available to them, the AR is responsible for 2/3 of all kills from that group of 12. (according to my collected data)

To me, that's a weapon being so desirable that it's squeezing out diversity.

So to put it in abstract terms: If X is beeing used more widely than others, that is always due to it beeing more desireable than others. Since something that is more desireable than others is OP, it follows that X is OP.

I can't seem to fit the "squeezing out diversity" part into this bit in a logically sound manner. Maybe you can help me with this.

Now, the underlined part is what i find interesting as, if i translated your definition so far correctly, one has to assume this to be true in order for your definition to be valid. Is that so?

I'll withhold further comments until we clarified this so i don't argue against a strawman.

The assault rifle is over powered when they fight weapons that are out of there niche.

I will concur with that but, then the next logical thing we have to look at is if the niches too small.

Currently Distance or redline sniping is able to adequately perform in their niche without too much interference, Vehicles are able to perform there niche with some interference from AV nates, and so can installations.

Meaning only the sniper rifle is the only traditional weapon that can even hold/maintain there niche role for real war points, other niche roles are vastly impotent. Also the forge gunning numbers I got was due to utilizing it as a sniper.

So this game breaks down into just a 5 play styles that can produce/generate stable SP

Assault Rifles
Vehicle/installation usage (not dropships)
Anti Vehicle (collection of AV, Forge, Swarm, since Vehicle kills gives you big points)
Sniping
Medic

Everything else is very hard to keep their niche without falling into the AR world.

lol at your data to prove OPness taken from random pub matches. How about taking data from competitive enviroments such as planetary conquest where most teams are running almost a full squad of Duel Wield Core Flaylock pistols every match which are able to 3 shot all infantry (even the dreaded caladari logi with it's 700 shields.).

The gun is a boob tube, the average player might struggle with the weapon because they aim for the chest or are unable to lead shots, however give the gun to an above average player and they will become godlike.

People keep saying this. I've posted consistently that as soon as someone posts data from PC, that shows this, I will concede that the FP is a problem for PC.

Having said that, the vast majority of players play in random pubs. This means that PC games aren't that important for overall balance, because most players don't experience this game mode.

I've said in many posts that the Flaylock has a high skill ceiling, which means precisely what you say here " however give the gun to an above average player and they will become godlike". Unlike the AR which is easymode right from the start.

You cannot balance weapons at the lowest denominator of players. doing so invites disaster such as the flaylock. Most PC corps have a policy against publicly posting our PC matches for 2 reasons: 1) the might give away team tactics, strategic placement of uplinks and positions. 2) We do not wish to cause harm to our opponents reputation.

okay... so just comparing anti infantry light weapons... (im omitting plasma cannon cause its unclear what the design intent of that weapon was)

We have

Assault Rifle
Scrambler Rifle
Laser Rifle
Mass Driver
Sniper Rifle
Shotguns

Now... the mass driver is a niche weapon... its usage will vary a lot... you just can't compare it. Its a projectile weapon, and it doesn't suit the playstyle of most players. Weapon usage for this should have little to do with weapon balance.

Sniper rifles are niche weapons... in any sort of competitive setting you usually only see 1-2 snipers per team. The only time that numbers skews is when you take your numbers from skirmish, where redline sniping is very prevalent, given there is little incentive to win. (oh look how skewed your sniper rifle data is!)

Shotguns are suffering hit detection issues, but are still a CQC niche weapon. You can't expect to see a lot of usage of this, and that's okay. Some people will want to use this, but it probably wont fit the playstyle of many players, not enough to warrant skilling into it.

Now... we're left with Laser Rifles, Scrambler Rifles, and Assault Rifles.

First off, there is only one variant of the laser rifle, and its also a very niche weapon given its lowered CQC efficacy. So you can't expect to see equal usage of this weapon either. Its also suffering from its poorly placed iron sights when 1.0 dropped.

Okay so now we're down to two racial of variants of... you guessed it... assault rifles.

The only information you can truly get from this 'test' you are doing is that Assault Rifles are preferred to scrambler rifles. Is this because assault rifles are more powerful than scrambler rifles? It might, and an analysis and use of each weapon will tell you scramblers need a buff.

Also, assault rifles have four variants, while scramblers are unfinished, with only two variants. So it cannot come as that much of a surprise that ARs are preferred.

Finally.. you see how high sniper kills are? That's from redline sniping. Its a condition that arises from public matching, where the desire to win is less than the desire for a high kdr, Imbalanced public matchmaking results in one team being pushed completely to the redline by another team, and common issue in skirmish and dom.

So my final conclusion on your data? Public matches cannot be used to determine weapon balance due to a variety of factors, poor matchmaking, a wide variety of skill levels (both personal and in game via SP), and an overall lack of desire to win for many players, causes more impact on weapon usage than anything else.

You must look at matches where teams are in full communication, and squads are preformed and tactics planned based on weapon balance and the types of maps being played on. You're data is flawed, if anything take the data from OMS, where you aren't suffering from bias that is cause by the use of 'redline mechanics' and you have the highest percentage of skilled players, with high enough SP to have actually spec'd into more than one weapon.

You cannot balance weapons at the lowest denominator of players. doing so invites disaster such as the flaylock. Most PC corps have a policy against publicly posting our PC matches for 2 reasons: 1) the might give away team tactics, strategic placement of uplinks and positions. 2) We do not wish to cause harm to our opponents reputation.

There's a little more you can get from this. First off, ARs kill 10 times as often as the very similar Scrambler rifle. Yeah, that's a big red flag.

Second, again, if a given weapon's "niche" is the entire game, then there's a problem and it's OP. The AR fits the bill perfectly here.


PC matches are equally not a good area to balance around because most players don't experience this.

But if 10 times as many people are using the AR, and it gets 10x as many kills.. that makes it OP?

What if people just prefer the assault rifle?

Also... you are completely wrong... it has nothing to do with 'who experiences what'. Its the fact that you want to balance off competitive play, not the random derping of people in public matches.

There's a little more you can get from this. First off, ARs kill 10 times as often as the very similar Scrambler rifle. Yeah, that's a big red flag.

Second, again, if a given weapon's "niche" is the entire game, then there's a problem and it's OP. The AR fits the bill perfectly here.


PC matches are equally not a good area to balance around because most players don't experience this.

Assault rifles have been in the game since it's inception, and with the permenent nature of skill point allocation it's not suprising that the majority of beta vets chose to spec into the known entity. This means that the vast majority of scrambler rifle users are either newer player to the game, or alts with less SP the a vets main. Both would be accurates reasons for the SR recieving less kills than the AR. Furthermore AR also has 2 varients of Officer weapons, the Balac (Which is an absolute beast), and the Krins (Which is more accurate and has a larger clip than the duvolle). Loosing access to these weapons is another reason why top end players with a focus on end game content (planetary conquest) would opt to go with the AR over the SR, whereas the SR does not have any officer varients.

THEN WHO AM I?!?!?!!!

Yes, these are all considerations. Which is why I don't claim that the AR is OP because of a small difference in kills. It's a huge difference in kills. Also, the shotgun, and MD have been in as long as I've been playing, yet their use is miniscule. yes, they are more of a niche weapon, as has been pointed out, but AR kills are literally 100 times more than shotgun kills in pub matches. That is not a balanced AR.