DUST Search - New Plate Stats, some comparisons, need debating and deliberation.

ZDub 303 wrote:

Felix Totenkreuz wrote:

Make them more powerful and high slot.

Quite frankly l don't want them at all. There is no benefit to implementing them, even if two of these would equal one plate and one repper of the same level. They can't make them weaker than that and they can't make them more powerful, because then one or the other turns useless. And if they are identical... equally useless. Then there are the skill requirements. Are they plates? Are they reppers? If they are one or the other you only get to apply one of the skill effect bonuses to them, or both if you max both skills, in which case you might as well use one plate and one repper anyways. Useless again. And if they get their own skill tree? Bunch of SP needed. In the end it would come down to the skill's bonus and however that will be what separates them from regular plates and reppers. Drastically reduced cpu and grid costs might be appealing and set shem apart from the other skill bonuses in the armor tree.

Agree, +1.

By their very nature they can't do anything but compete with modules that are already in the game. No matter what, one of them will render the other set of modules useless.

Explosives probably need their armor bonus tuned down to 110-120%. Then reactive plates, with no speed penalty, in the high slot, can allow for a more armor vs shields vs damage mods dilemma for armor tankers.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Vin Mora Sand Mercenary Corps Inc. Interstellar Conquest Enterprises 14	Posted - 2013.06.12 17:55:00 - [91] - Quote My only real complaint with reactive plates is that the Armor Repair go 1, 1, 2. When 1, 2, 3 makes more sense.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 208	Posted - 2013.06.12 18:02:00 - [92] - Quote Sorry, but anyone who thinks the Reactive plates are good with their current numbers fails at math.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 5093	Posted - 2013.06.12 18:12:00 - [93] - Quote Cass Barr wrote: Sorry, but anyone who thinks the Reactive plates are good with their current numbers fails at math. The problem is Cass we don't know the magical Jedi Curve formula. Meta Level Grid and CPU in = Performance out and to be honest that shouldn't be so easy to guess. I mean figuring out the tritanium unit for ships in eve was one hell of a convoluted creative process myself but the lock on formula in eve was ever so much more complicated beyond my level of math and despite best efforts are still off.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 208	Posted - 2013.06.12 18:19:00 - [94] - Quote At the numbers we have the HP is almost useless, the repair rate is middling, and the movement penalty is too high. An Enhanced Plate and Complex Repper is better than 2 Reactives in every single category. Except HP. It has 3 fewer.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 5093	Posted - 2013.06.12 18:22:00 - [95] - Quote Well ccp said it in another thread the numbers are likely not final.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 208	Posted - 2013.06.12 18:25:00 - [96] - Quote Well I didn't see that, but I sure hope they mean it.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 327	Posted - 2013.06.12 18:27:00 - [97] - Quote I think its pretty clear, having reactive plates and armor reps in the same module category (low powered) is redundant and pointless. There will always be a clear winner of combinations between the two. Moving reactive plates to high powered slot and removing their speed penalty would open up a whole new realm of theorycrafting possibilities for armor tankers, trying to decide between damage mods and armor/reps.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 5093	Posted - 2013.06.12 18:31:00 - [98] - Quote BL4CKST4R okay they're in the table now and updated the highlighted colors.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 208	Posted - 2013.06.12 18:36:00 - [99] - Quote Personally I think they should make Complex Reactives be 90 hp, 3 hp/s, 5% movement, then make them require level 5 in both armor plating AND armor repair systems. I've no recommendations for fitting reqs, just that they be useable. The issue they will have with putting them in High slots is that running Shield Extenders would still be preferable to using Reactives. No shields makes you excessively vulnerable to grenades and other explosive weaponry.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 327	Posted - 2013.06.12 18:58:00 - [100] - Quote Cass Barr wrote: Personally I think they should make Complex Reactives be 90 hp, 3 hp/s, 5% movement, then make them require level 5 in both armor plating AND armor repair systems. I've no recommendations for fitting reqs, just that they be useable. The issue they will have with putting them in High slots is that running Shield Extenders would still be preferable to using Reactives. No shields makes you excessively vulnerable to grenades and other explosive weaponry. Just a flat increase in numbers makes them equally powerful for shield tankers too. Skill reqs don't mean anything other than it'll take an extra few weeks for shield tankers to get them, that's about it. No matter what, reactive plates will either be good enough to warrant standard plates and reps useless, or not good enough and standard plates and reps will always be better. As long as they are low slot modules, they compete directly with whats already in place, and either reactive plates or standard plates will be better, period. The only thing reactive plates could do in the low slots is be more hp and hp/s efficient per slot, but cost more PG/CPU. That is about the only way you can make them different. However.. with CPU and PG upgrades in the low slot, they once again become self defeating. Shields don't suffer this because they have passive reps and only have to stack maybe one recharger on if they feel like it.

Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 208	Posted - 2013.06.12 19:44:00 - [101] - Quote I wasn't trying to solve the shield vs. armor tanking issues, just trying to make Reactives useful. There are numerous recommendations regarding shields vs armor already. IMO a good way to help out is to make Reactives unequivocally better yet have high PG fitting reqs, then give Gallente and Amar higher base PG, or a fitting reduction for armor plates. Or not. There are numerous ways CCP can address shield vs. armor imbalances. But whatever they do, Reactives still need to be useful.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 329	Posted - 2013.06.12 20:02:00 - [102] - Quote How do you make reactive plates useful though? By making them better than fitting standard plates and standard reps. I guess like you say... Add in a ridiculously high PG requirement to them, making them impossible for shield tankers to fit, and then add in a racial bonus to decrease PG reqs for armor tankers. Then armor tankers just stack reactive plates as they will be better than standard plates and standard reps, and leave those to be used occasionally by shield tankers who need a low slot. I feel like there are better ways to go about it though than to make reactive plates so powerful that standard plates and standard reps become inferior to use for armor tankers. Either way you still need a racial bonus.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 208	Posted - 2013.06.12 20:19:00 - [103] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: How do you make reactive plates useful though? By making them better than fitting standard plates and standard reps. I guess like you say... Add in a ridiculously high PG requirement to them, making them impossible for shield tankers to fit, and then add in a racial bonus to decrease PG reqs for armor tankers. Then armor tankers just stack reactive plates as they will be better than standard plates and standard reps, and leave those to be used occasionally by shield tankers who need a low slot. I feel like there are better ways to go about it though than to make reactive plates so powerful that standard plates and standard reps become inferior to use for armor tankers. Either way you still need a racial bonus. This is 1 way to fix it, but the speed penalty also needs to be dealt with. Speed in Dust is extremely important, it affects everything from survivability, to moving the right stick. The other armor plates should be for Armor tanks who would rather buffer than than passive tank, shield tankers should be able to pick any of them up but armor tanks should be able to get the most out of it.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 208	Posted - 2013.06.12 20:32:00 - [104] - Quote I have no problem with Reactive plates being superior, just like reactive armor on modern battle tanks is superior to simple steel plating. Sure the technologies are completely different, but it would make sense that Eve nations would have developed something more effective than static plating. And Reactive plates represent the best opportunity to solve one of the problems with armor tanking, that you have to sacrifice your buffer to gain any built-in regeneration. This fact, along with the huge speed penalties on Complex plates, are what prevents armor suits from fulfilling their design as large buffer tanks with low regen. The numbers I quoted would mean that a Reactive has less HP than a Plate and lower regen than a repper but the combination frees up a slot, and allows higher EHP than using separate modules, while maintaining a useful amount of regen(5 ranks of armor repair systems should bump the complex from 3 to almost 4 hp/s). This comes at the cost of twice as much SP investment (or hell make an entirely new skill for all I care), higher ISK expenses, and the touchier subject of how to balance the fitting reqs. That's the direction I think Reactives should move.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 5093	Posted - 2013.06.12 22:30:00 - [105] - Quote Does anyone know how to make cells editable by the public? I would want to make a blank one so you guys can crunch your own numbers.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 219	Posted - 2013.06.13 00:26:00 - [106] - Quote Ask them to make a copy of yours and then edit their own then share it here, if they get a public copy the trolls will ruin the good ideas.
Meeko Fent Mercenary incorperated 52	Posted - 2013.06.13 01:10:00 - [107] - Quote I'm Just thinking that the Reactive Plates will make the Armor Reper Obsolete, and the Plate a hell of a lot less Viable Why Fit a Complex Armor Reper when you could Fit 2 Reactive and have a slight Buffer to boot? Why Fight a Plate that cant heal, when you can get a plate that can with just a smaller Buffer? Besides that, this might make it worth some iskies to have an Armor tank Or a Shield tank Armor- Slower movement/repair, More Buffer Shield-Less Buffer, Faster Movement, Faster/Natural Regen
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 223	Posted - 2013.06.13 01:14:00 - [108] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: I'm Just thinking that the Reactive Plates will make the Armor Reper Obsolete, and the Plate a hell of a lot less Viable Why Fit a Complex Armor Reper when you could Fit 2 Reactive and have a slight Buffer to boot? Why Fight a Plate that cant heal, when you can get a plate that can with just a smaller Buffer? Besides that, this might make it worth some iskies to have an Armor tank Or a Shield tank Armor- Slower movement/repair, More Buffer Shield-Less Buffer, Faster Movement, Faster/Natural Regen Except using an enhanced plate and a complex armor repper gives you 87 HP and 5 hp/s at a cost of 5% speed, 65CPU/17PG, and 2 low slots. Using two complex reactive plates gives 90 HP and 4 HP/s at a cost of 8% speed, 72CPU/32PG, and 2 low slots. Reactive plates should not have a penalty and the CPU/PG costs need to be lowered by alot, the only reason for them to have a movement penalty and CPU/PG is if Gallente and Amarr have racial skills to reduce the movement penalty by 10% per level and the CPU/PG by 5-10% per level. Also if the goal of CCP is to make Armor and Shields like you describe we deserve another respec, because most of us would not like to be forced into a gameplay style we do not like.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 219	Posted - 2013.06.13 01:16:00 - [109] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Armor- Slower movement/repair, More Buffer Shield-Less Buffer, Faster Movement, Faster/Natural Regen If people repeat it often enough, it must make it true.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 224	Posted - 2013.06.13 01:18:00 - [110] - Quote Cass Barr wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Armor- Slower movement/repair, More Buffer Shield-Less Buffer, Faster Movement, Faster/Natural Regen If people repeat it often enough, it must make it true. This is what is currently overpowering shield tanks, what this guy is saying is exactly how the game is now rofl

Meeko Fent Mercenary incorperated 52	Posted - 2013.06.13 02:12:00 - [111] - Quote Cass Barr wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Armor- Slower movement/repair, More Buffer Shield-Less Buffer, Faster Movement, Faster/Natural Regen If people repeat it often enough, it must make it true. Just saying It s it is. you want a Buffer? Go Armor. You Want a Regenerative Tank? Go Shield. Just Saying
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 932	Posted - 2013.06.13 03:18:00 - [112] - Quote Armor reeds to be better at resisting damage - all damage should be turned down to armor across the board. no modules needed - bring kinetic damage down to just 100% (from 105% iirc) , bring explosive damage down to 115%, and drop hybrid weapon damage down to 85% (down from 90%) and bring energy weapons to 75% (from 80%). Armor plating needs a buff across the board as well. currently people are penalized for skilling higher into the armor plating skill. I'd suggest giving the armor plates a flat 5% speed penalty for all the basic style mods. armor plates should get better with higher tiers, not worse. The numbers for the new plates are too low as well, and I've seen several good suggestions throughout this thread as to a good number set. Putting the armor repper in the high slots would give the armor tanker more flexibility in mixing and matching for the right combo of plates. part of the imbalance between shield and armor tanking is that shield tankers can utilize both high and low slots. Moving the cpu/pg booster mods to the high slots would also help balance things out., IMO. It would actually let the armor tanker meet the high levels of PG needed for all of their gear.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 343	Posted - 2013.06.13 03:27:00 - [113] - Quote CPU for low slots and PG for high slots (with no penalty) would make a lot of sense to me.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 221	Posted - 2013.06.13 03:45:00 - [114] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Cass Barr wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Armor- Slower movement/repair, More Buffer Shield-Less Buffer, Faster Movement, Faster/Natural Regen If people repeat it often enough, it must make it true. Just saying It s it is. you want a Buffer? Go Armor. You Want a Regenerative Tank? Go Shield. Just Saying No, you're saying how it's supposed to work, not how it does work. Talos Alomar's suggestions would work, but I'd worry that CCP would just move reppers to high slots and ignore the damage reduction part, rendering them unusable. So long as explosives do so much damage to armor, using the high slots for anything but Complex Shield Extenders simply isn't feasible.
Felix Totenkreuz Intrepidus XI Omega Commission 9	Posted - 2013.06.13 10:24:00 - [115] - Quote Make them more powerful and high slot. Quite frankly l don't want them at all. There is no benefit to implementing them, even if two of these would equal one plate and one repper of the same level. They can't make them weaker than that and they can't make them more powerful, because then one or the other turns useless. And if they are identical... equally useless. Then there are the skill requirements. Are they plates? Are they reppers? If they are one or the other you only get to apply one of the skill effect bonuses to them, or both if you max both skills, in which case you might as well use one plate and one repper anyways. Useless again. And if they get their own skill tree? Bunch of SP needed. In the end it would come down to the skill's bonus and however that will be what separates them from regular plates and reppers. Drastically reduced cpu and grid costs might be appealing and set shem apart from the other skill bonuses in the armor tree.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 346	Posted - 2013.06.13 10:50:00 - [116] - Quote Felix Totenkreuz wrote: Make them more powerful and high slot. Quite frankly l don't want them at all. There is no benefit to implementing them, even if two of these would equal one plate and one repper of the same level. They can't make them weaker than that and they can't make them more powerful, because then one or the other turns useless. And if they are identical... equally useless. Then there are the skill requirements. Are they plates? Are they reppers? If they are one or the other you only get to apply one of the skill effect bonuses to them, or both if you max both skills, in which case you might as well use one plate and one repper anyways. Useless again. And if they get their own skill tree? Bunch of SP needed. In the end it would come down to the skill's bonus and however that will be what separates them from regular plates and reppers. Drastically reduced cpu and grid costs might be appealing and set shem apart from the other skill bonuses in the armor tree. Agree, +1. By their very nature they can't do anything but compete with modules that are already in the game. No matter what, one of them will render the other set of modules useless. Explosives probably need their armor bonus tuned down to 110-120%. Then reactive plates, with no speed penalty, in the high slot, can allow for a more armor vs shields vs damage mods dilemma for armor tankers.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 240	Posted - 2013.06.13 12:42:00 - [117] - Quote dblpost.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 240	Posted - 2013.06.13 12:43:00 - [118] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Felix Totenkreuz wrote: Make them more powerful and high slot. Quite frankly l don't want them at all. There is no benefit to implementing them, even if two of these would equal one plate and one repper of the same level. They can't make them weaker than that and they can't make them more powerful, because then one or the other turns useless. And if they are identical... equally useless. Then there are the skill requirements. Are they plates? Are they reppers? If they are one or the other you only get to apply one of the skill effect bonuses to them, or both if you max both skills, in which case you might as well use one plate and one repper anyways. Useless again. And if they get their own skill tree? Bunch of SP needed. In the end it would come down to the skill's bonus and however that will be what separates them from regular plates and reppers. Drastically reduced cpu and grid costs might be appealing and set shem apart from the other skill bonuses in the armor tree. Agree, +1. By their very nature they can't do anything but compete with modules that are already in the game. No matter what, one of them will render the other set of modules useless. Explosives probably need their armor bonus tuned down to 110-120%. Then reactive plates, with no speed penalty, in the high slot, can allow for a more armor vs shields vs damage mods dilemma for armor tankers. Actually no, leaving all of the in the low slot means that you can pick and choose depending on what you want to do, we need the high slots for shields so we can have a buffer against explosive damage, even with a nerf of 110-120% a basic grenade will take more than half our HP if we choose to buffer tank. Leaving them in the low slot gives armor tanks the choice to either Active tank, passive tank, or buffer tank.
Night Cloud Breaker SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1	Posted - 2013.06.13 13:14:00 - [119] - Quote This idea may be crazy, but I did put some thought into it. One downside to making plates "stronger" is that a shield tanker can just throw them on and become even tankier (especially ones without a downside). Another issue is the fact that we have a lot of low slot modules (more options, more variety; right?). Would it help balance things if we were to say move some lot slot items over to the high slot side? For example; Shield tankers can stack shield extenders and then throw a regulator or two in their low slots + whatever else fits their fancy. As an armor tanker you have to decisively choose whether or not to stack another armor plate or one of the many other options on there. Movement Modules The big downside to armor tanking at the moment is the reduction in movement speed. Now i agree that base movement speed should not be touched as it is very important in any shoots. There have been stated possible fixes to this such as it effecting stamina or only sprint speed. So what would happen if we moved these type of modules to high slots (or at least the sprint speed one)? Armor Repair Modules With armor, we don't have the downside of waiting to get reps, but we do have significantly lower repair rates. If these were moved to a high slot module, it would make the shield tankers have to choose between repairing their small amount of armor or having another shield extender or damage mod. While armor tankers would benefit from this because that don't have to sacrifice a low slot for their armor to be repaired passively. New armor modules Would it hurt to make these high slot modules? This would prevent the caldari tanker that people have mentioned because they would have to choose between a shield extender or an armor module (the one without a drawback or the one with reps). This idea goes hand in hand with the armor rep module being a high slot. This would leave the original armor modules as low slots. The movement modules being high slot allows an armor tanker to counteract the negatives of being an armor tanker. The other two allow more options for armor tankers and some choices for shield tankers that have drawbacks. Just an idea I thought of, it could be completely crazy. I could see some balancing needing to be done if it were implemented. Opinions?
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 241	Posted - 2013.06.13 13:24:00 - [120] - Quote Your post makes sense Night Cloud Breaker, but you have to understand that by moving armor to high slots we lose the ability to pick Shield modules to act as a buffer against explosive damage, also because we lower high slots our armor repair would actually be even lower than it can possibly be now. The best possible way to keep shield tanks from over using these modules is to give bonuses to the suits intended to their usage, we don't wanna take away the ability for any suit to use these. The only module that would make sense in the high slot would be ferroscale plates, reactive plates should be a balancing factor for medium suits to keep up with the recharge rates and overall EHP of Shield tanks, even if they used the same modules as us we would still come out being equal. One of the biggest problems with armor tanking is the inability of Armor tanks to stack armor plates without becoming gimped in battle.



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