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ZDub 303
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Posted - 2013.06.12 02:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think we can all agree... that any buff to armor plates will affect both shield tankers and armor tanker equally. Any changes to armor past the introduction of these new plates will need to be in the forms of racial bonuses to armor tankers.
Gallente needs a racial bonus to decrease the speed penalty on plates. Somewhere around 10-15% per level.
Amarr need an armor plate bonus, and then their base movement speed brought up to the same level as Gallente and Caldari. This gives Amarr the flexibility to be a slower moving, but high EHP tanks.
Everyone is pushing for shield extenders to increase dropsuit profile, and I can't argue with that. If it increases hitbox though, anything more than 1-2% per extender, than shield tanking becomes pointless. Hitboxes are dramatically different in eve, and that will not translate well to dust.
Finally, we need to normalize the speed penalty on armor plates. Have all standard plates be 5% and all reactive plates be 3%. Higher level modules should not have more of a penalty than low level modules. Same goes for shield extenders, have a 5-15% profile increase per shield extender, regardless of level.
Caldari scouts will then need a racial bonus to decrease profile penalty on shield extenders by 10-15% as well. |
ZDub 303
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Posted - 2013.06.12 16:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Novawolf McDustingham The514th wrote:My Idea is as follows - First of all, no movement penalties on any armor anything, Dig? Here's some numbers, they're probably a little on th high side so just use it as reference.
Next, armor plating - High slot.
Basic - 5% damage reduction to armor
Advanced - 10% damage reduction to armor.
Prototype - 15% damage reduction to armor.
Stacking penalties apply
Armor Re-enforcement - Low slot
20hp - 40hp - 60hp
Armor repair - lowslot
2hp/sec - 4hp/sec - 6hp/sec - or whatever it is now... I swear I don;t really care.
Now armor tanking is unique and not copy and paste half assed shield tanking that has to be carried. Also putting the plating resistance module in the Highslot keeps shield tankers from fully dual tanking without sacrificing a slot that could be used for an extender and those suits built for armor tanking with limited high slots from stacking too many.
Kneel, before McDustingham.... Kneel
Lol caldaris would make better armor tankers than gallentes!
The only way you can do it is to give a move speed penalty reduction racial bonus. Otherwise, anything gallentes can do, caldaris can do better. |
ZDub 303
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Posted - 2013.06.12 18:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think its pretty clear, having reactive plates and armor reps in the same module category (low powered) is redundant and pointless. There will always be a clear winner of combinations between the two.
Moving reactive plates to high powered slot and removing their speed penalty would open up a whole new realm of theorycrafting possibilities for armor tankers, trying to decide between damage mods and armor/reps. |
ZDub 303
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Posted - 2013.06.12 18:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cass Barr wrote:Personally I think they should make Complex Reactives be 90 hp, 3 hp/s, 5% movement, then make them require level 5 in both armor plating AND armor repair systems. I've no recommendations for fitting reqs, just that they be useable.
The issue they will have with putting them in High slots is that running Shield Extenders would still be preferable to using Reactives. No shields makes you excessively vulnerable to grenades and other explosive weaponry.
Just a flat increase in numbers makes them equally powerful for shield tankers too. Skill reqs don't mean anything other than it'll take an extra few weeks for shield tankers to get them, that's about it.
No matter what, reactive plates will either be good enough to warrant standard plates and reps useless, or not good enough and standard plates and reps will always be better. As long as they are low slot modules, they compete directly with whats already in place, and either reactive plates or standard plates will be better, period.
The only thing reactive plates could do in the low slots is be more hp and hp/s efficient per slot, but cost more PG/CPU. That is about the only way you can make them different.
However.. with CPU and PG upgrades in the low slot, they once again become self defeating.
Shields don't suffer this because they have passive reps and only have to stack maybe one recharger on if they feel like it. |
ZDub 303
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Posted - 2013.06.12 20:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
How do you make reactive plates useful though? By making them better than fitting standard plates and standard reps.
I guess like you say... Add in a ridiculously high PG requirement to them, making them impossible for shield tankers to fit, and then add in a racial bonus to decrease PG reqs for armor tankers.
Then armor tankers just stack reactive plates as they will be better than standard plates and standard reps, and leave those to be used occasionally by shield tankers who need a low slot.
I feel like there are better ways to go about it though than to make reactive plates so powerful that standard plates and standard reps become inferior to use for armor tankers. Either way you still need a racial bonus. |
ZDub 303
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Posted - 2013.06.13 03:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
CPU for low slots and PG for high slots (with no penalty) would make a lot of sense to me. |
ZDub 303
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Posted - 2013.06.13 10:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Felix Totenkreuz wrote:Make them more powerful and high slot.
Quite frankly l don't want them at all. There is no benefit to implementing them, even if two of these would equal one plate and one repper of the same level. They can't make them weaker than that and they can't make them more powerful, because then one or the other turns useless. And if they are identical... equally useless. Then there are the skill requirements. Are they plates? Are they reppers? If they are one or the other you only get to apply one of the skill effect bonuses to them, or both if you max both skills, in which case you might as well use one plate and one repper anyways. Useless again. And if they get their own skill tree? Bunch of SP needed. In the end it would come down to the skill's bonus and however that will be what separates them from regular plates and reppers. Drastically reduced cpu and grid costs might be appealing and set shem apart from the other skill bonuses in the armor tree.
Agree, +1.
By their very nature they can't do anything but compete with modules that are already in the game. No matter what, one of them will render the other set of modules useless.
Explosives probably need their armor bonus tuned down to 110-120%. Then reactive plates, with no speed penalty, in the high slot, can allow for a more armor vs shields vs damage mods dilemma for armor tankers. |
ZDub 303
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Posted - 2013.06.20 15:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
I think another issue, that cannot be ignored, when it comes to armor tanking is the absurdely high damage bonus to armor on explosives.
I don't think anything should ever have a 135% modifier, its also probably why AV nades are OP.
+/- 20% should be the maximum anything ever modifies. That means something is doing 50% more damage to one stat vs the other, which is enough.
Also, explosives need damage falloff, im not sure how its calculated now, but it seems like it has high damage inside a certain radius and falls off pretty quick to incidental damage. Fall off damage should be much more linear if they aren't already (hard to tell from play experience, esp as a shield tanker). |
ZDub 303
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Posted - 2013.06.20 16:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Explosives should do 100/100 to shield and armor unless they make flux grenades work like locus grenades, same with mass drivers and flaylocks until they release the anti shield variant of these weapons.
With the high alpha on grenades, I tend to agree. |
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