Note CPUGRIDHPHP/sMove
Basic Ferroscale Plate 1222500
Enhanced FP 2374000
Complex FP 34136500%
Basic Reactive Plate 103442-1%
Enhanced RP 248653-2%
Complex RP 3614874-4%
Basic Armor Plate 101650-3%
Enhanced AP 206870-5%
Complex AP 30121250-7%
Basic Shield Extender 1832200
Enhanced SE 3663300
Complex SE 54116600
Basic Armor Repairer 201040
Enhanced AR 355060
Complex AR 4511080


that would probably work out, rather than what the crystal ball stats are but that's just imho

They've talked about giving Gallente (or armor tankers) some bonus to speed penalties on the armor plates before, right? Or was I just imagining it?

I'd assume that would make regular plates more appealing to gallente because they could fit higher hp with no penalty. Maybe Amarr would have some similar but lesser bonus to armor speed penalties? Balancing in context of that might be a little different. I'd want to know if there are other "balance" changes incoming that might impact armor tanking before taking up the sharpie to fix the new modules.

That said, the reactive plates seem really hard to like. I'd think the fitting reqs might be higher (like maybe on the order of standard plate fitting + standard reppers fitting-wise). However, I'd think the penalty on the hp/reps wouldn't be that high. Ferroscale is a bit tougher.

It's difficult to juggle the balance for all this in my head in comparison to shields because suits can fit both modules anyway.

How do you make reactive plates useful though? By making them better than fitting standard plates and standard reps.

I guess like you say... Add in a ridiculously high PG requirement to them, making them impossible for shield tankers to fit, and then add in a racial bonus to decrease PG reqs for armor tankers.

Then armor tankers just stack reactive plates as they will be better than standard plates and standard reps, and leave those to be used occasionally by shield tankers who need a low slot.

I feel like there are better ways to go about it though than to make reactive plates so powerful that standard plates and standard reps become inferior to use for armor tankers. Either way you still need a racial bonus.

I'm Just thinking that the Reactive Plates will make the Armor Reper Obsolete, and the Plate a hell of a lot less Viable

Why Fit a Complex Armor Reper when you could Fit 2 Reactive and have a slight Buffer to boot?

Why Fight a Plate that cant heal, when you can get a plate that can with just a smaller Buffer?

Besides that, this might make it worth some iskies to have an Armor tank Or a Shield tank

Armor- Slower movement/repair, More Buffer
Shield-Less Buffer, Faster Movement, Faster/Natural Regen

If people repeat it often enough, it must make it true.

Agree, +1.

By their very nature they can't do anything but compete with modules that are already in the game. No matter what, one of them will render the other set of modules useless.

Explosives probably need their armor bonus tuned down to 110-120%. Then reactive plates, with no speed penalty, in the high slot, can allow for a more armor vs shields vs damage mods dilemma for armor tankers.

indeed, we really need to have role bonuses on suits, not just skill bonuses

so that we can actually seperate the races more than has an ounce more armor, and the slot layout

and keeping armor on the lows is fine if we see numbers that make the modules work, topped off with some role bonus

i did post earlier regarding possible plate stats (would be after a role bonus if there was one) that would be much better competitively

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Av9xiIsYvVjqdDNYbE9obG9SSjdGOTYxVHdXRVlveVE&usp=sharing

would be awesome if IWS added to his sheet too

and as a role bonus -50% PG cost for armor modules, (then 1.5 them)

that works, i was just quickly coming up with some role bonus that made sense as a way that armor plates wouldn't just end up making cal logi even more stupid

oh and the lowering PG statement implied that the numbers posted would be AFTER the role reduction for fitting

amarr really needs like +10% to armor efficacy / lvl though because then with their 3 lows they could

plate
plate
rep

and be the same ehp as

plate
plate
plate
rep

and they would still be the slowest in the game :P

With the update, CCP should buff the **** out of armor repairers and make them a highslot.

I think you're missing one downside of the shieldtanks, 1 flux grenade remove all the shields.. no matter how much shield i have

How would it be harder to survive if I had an armor mod in every slot?

By the way guys this thread is being watched now.

By the way guys this thread is being watched now.

The only why is to HARD tune the dmg weapon:

Example:


AR 75 % dmg vs armor, keeping the low regen and actual value spd reduct dmg .

MD and EXPLOS 150 % dmg vs ARMOR or you could give Laser an armor pierce ability etc etc
etc etc ( i put just 2 exmp, )
and surprise surprise, with this ALL weapon find their place.

Because now your team need a Explo expert to kill Armor tankers in PC, and this add a WHOLE new world of possibility.
Not only shield logi that run from A-B-C-D but also a Hardcore defense.
This will also make dropship useful, because you can drop your Heavy armored team on a letter guarded by ARdropsuit and kill them all.

The only balance that we must do if we choose this way is to force Heavy drop suit n Heavy weap, or they become un-killable


With this the ROCK-PAPER-SCISSOR WORK

*coughAMARR SENTINELcough*

+ one high slot and shyte recharge rate. I don't really call that tank. It has about the same base armor. Both are to low for a Sentinel imho, but I digress. 466 shield is nothing for a heavy. We constantly take fire from multiple angles/shooters. That shield is gone in no time. With only 1 high slot you can not beef up shields to ever be able to call it shield tank.

@Cross
Sorry man was not meant in your response, i quote your think to integrate my post
Sorry again for been unclear, but was very very late when i made the reply



Sorry but I disagree
Shield will still Have high Mobility and fast recharge. And that is the only way to NOT make armr and shield the same think, that kill variety.
And have weapos that do 75 % vs shield like it was for armor.

From my point of view a MMOFPS, with equip and all, mean that there are some situation that you simply can't avoid death.

Let's make an example, if i engage a Heavy in cqc i MUST die (there are exception but thats another story) right now i can kill a Heavy with 0 effort.

if you have a Suit that has no weakness is like playing rock-scissor-paper and then changing the game in rock-scissor-paper-nuclear strike

I ask if you find right that Ar-tankers have to carry flux hades,choose between scrambler or AR and shield tank don't have to bother of what weapon choose because EVERYTHING kill armor?

The only way to making both tanking effective but different from each other is HARD SPEC weap DMG so a weapon cant be effective Vs shield and Vs Armor

Here's this week's update on issues and suggestions that the dev team discussed.

[FEEDBACK] Ferroscale and Reactive plates stats https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86664&find=unread
Update: We will improve on getting info regarding changes and new features out to players sooner and also monitor community feedback on the new items after they get the chance to try it in game.

I personally don't have a problem with the new plate stats.

However, since we're getting another lowslot that repairs armor, I think non-militia armor repair units need to be changed to a highslot and repair significantly more hp/s

I messed with your tool a little bit and I made these numbers.

This assumes Gallente and Amarr suits will receive buffs to their suits to mitigate speed penalties, and enhance their usage of armor plates to put them on equal footing to shield tanking.

http://postimg.org/image/7bm3wn1r5/

This assumes all suits will remain as is.

http://postimg.org/image/dtf15gean/

Reactive plates will repair armor

Moving reps to a highslot would allow players to fill their low slots with plates, and still have decent armor regen.

Wonky is balancing Armor Plates off of only 2 of the games Racial Types to begin with. Even more so when you attempt to balance off of things that aren't in game and may never be.

You cannot balance off of assumptions and parts of a whole or you will never have balance.

I started creating these numbers by tweaking the numbers for the Standard Armor Plates for Each Tier. I achieved perfect balance for these. All the Plates offer the Same HP/Fitting, so you are only paying for more Raw HP as you progress up the Tier, and accordingly accrue more of a speed penalty. This is how Armor should be.

From there I gave the Repairers a slight buff.

Afterward I balanced the Ferroscale Plates off of the Standard Plates. The offer less Raw HP at a greater Fitting Cost just like they should.

Then I turned to the Reactive Plates. I used the Numbers from all of the above to balance these. The HP they offer falls in between the Ferroscale and Standard Plates as it should. The Reps are slightly less than the Repairers, and the speed penalty is less than that of Standard Plates.

If you notice in all 4 categories it is beneficial now to progress through the Tiers and acquire the Complex modules. Whereas currently the standard Basic Armor Plate offers better HP/Fitting. Also take note that each module type progresses evenly up the tiers just as it should. There are no sudden leaps in amount of HP or Fitting Cost etc.

So honestly I have no Idea what you mean when you say my numbers are "wonky"

Ferroscale plates are supposed to do exactly that! They have a decent amount of HP with NO speed penalty. You can't have your cake and eat it to.

Compared to all your numbers the ferroscale plates give the lowest HP per CPU/PG based on your stats.

I never said you shouldn't be able to stack Reactive Plates, you should simply be ready to invest a very large amount of SP to be able to. I do not think one should simply be able to get a proto Suit and stack as many of whatever module they wish, without speccing into any secondary or tertiary skills to make it possible. They Fitting cost is "Insanely high" because the benefits they offer warrant such a cost.

A Gallente assault suit has 79 PG at all skills level 5. Stacking 4 complex reactive plates costs 84 PG. Shields are highly beneficial and do not warrant costs such as these, even though they have low HP compared to your stats at least they can equip a weapon.

Your argument is frankly full of contradictions. In one sentence you say that the stats I suggest are to penalizing, then you turn around and say the stats make Plates OP.

The CPU/PG stats are penalizing, and reducing them would make them OP via High HP, pretty much everything is just to high. I hope that is clearer.

Just because you CAN equip something onto your suit, does not make it profitable. Likewise if you CAN'T equip something, it probably means you need to invest into optimization skills in order to be able to.

I don't expect people to be able to get an advanced suit and stack Complex Reactive Plates on it accordint to my numbers. One must invest much SP because of the benefits they offer. That means Having a very good suit with Dropsuit Core Upgrades, Electronics, and Engineering skills built up. That means speccing into your Weapon Fitting Optimization skills. Like I said they shouldn't be available to every single player. You must invest some serious SP.

I currently have about 6.4 mil SP with Armor Skills all at 5, but I don't expect to be able to use the Complex Reactives for quite some time based on these numbers. I don't mind this because it adds to the depth of character development.

Even with all stats at level 5 it is impossible to stack more than 3 of these plates and be competitive in battle, based on your PG costs, only suit that could stack plates effectively is a Gallente logi but even then they have barely any room for shields or a gun above basic.

agreed


Makes no sense for the Armor Module with NO speed penalty to have MEDIUM HP compared to other Armor Modules, or for them to have the HIGHEST Fitting Cost for offering the Least overal benefit.

No movement penalty is a very high benefit, the CPU/PG costs should also be High to compensate for the medium HP but I don't mean super high just on average higher than the other armor modules.


Makes no sense for Plates with a speed penalty (albeit lower than standard plates' penalty) to have the LOWEST HP. Also makes no sense for Armor Plates that offer a significant amount of HP+Reps with a slight speed penalty NOT to have the highest fitting cost as they offer the most overall benefit.

By low HP I mean the same as, or around the same as, shield extenders. With half the repair as a repairer stacking 4 complex reactives with 66 HP and 3 HP/s = 264 HP and 12 HP/s and a low penalty in speed, stacking 2 armor plates and 2 complex repairers would give Higher HP and more penalty, but the same HP/s. The Low CPU/PG costs is account for the lower possible CPU/PG costs that combining armor plates and repairers would have. The benefit of reactives would obviously be simpler stacking and lower speed penalty.

I would concede that the numbers for Reactives may be to high and will adjust these. I don't want to make them to squishy though.


That being said how do you feel about my proposed numbers for the other modules?

I don't understand why you would want them to benefit one class over another.

Well I don't use assault, but I doubt I would dual tank with only 72 PG. I would probably shield tank, add a regulator or two and a utility type module. It doesn't seem viable, at least not for a Gallente.

LOL @ me!

I know nothing about Assault Suits I'm a Heavy

EDIT: Which probably explains a lot

You should try some sort of high-slot armor tanking enhancement.

It doesn't have to be complicated. HighSlot with +10% to armor HP, or 10% armor resists.

The Sentinel should also get more high slots with this addition.

This are drastic change...
If we move repp from low to high we need to rework ALL the suit slot.
The first thing is to move the new plate on hight sloth, otherwise the Shield tank gain the major benefit.

I think it's time to make the weap do very different % on damage on shield and armor. With this all weapon become finally viable and armor tank become finally usefull.
Two problem with one solution

One concern I've had with armor taking, one that i have yet to see addressed in this thread, is the effective uptime of each tanking system.

If you take a shield tanked suit, and an armor tanked suit, and apply some fixed amount of damage to them, they are both in a 'vulnerable' state and will seek cover. However, the shield tanked suit will regen far faster, bringing it out of its vulnerable state far quicker than the armor suit.

Because of the 'high buffer, low reps' pattern armor has, it just picks up another penalty of having to spend longer getting back up to full strength, or be forced into combat at less than full strength.

I'm curious to see what people think about this gap (i think it more important than any ehp or repping disparity myself). I don't see the new modules helping in this respect.

I actually don't see the new modules fixing any problems. They are directly competing with the existing modules(why?), and the only benefit i see them having is putting buffer and repair on a single module, so a saving in low slots. This helps those with restricted numbers of low slots... so um, shield tankers?

I honestly feel like we should be working on balancing the modules we have, and only add new modules when we have a clearly defined NEED to fill.