You all dumb@sses cry that LAVs are major problem amd can kill you with little skill investment. going into LLAV requires 1.2M SP whereas Swarm proto only cost 600K SP.
Than swarms are not OP when we tankers talk about it. You deserved it by nerfing tankers that much.
Watchout! Im coming in my LAV.

Just to make sure everyone else wasn't crazy I did some testing.There is still a free LAV that umm ya,doesn't require a single sp or isk.Soooo it must just be you.

Yet Free LAVs are like free 150 points when they die.

150 SP from WP. 12,600 SP for the AV grenade that doesn't even one shot them. That's 84 free LABs you have to down with a militia swarm launcher.

Even then, Prototype AV grenades don't one shot them. I still call imbalanced design.

Just to make sure everyone else wasn't crazy I did some testing.There is still a free LAV that umm ya,doesn't require a single sp or isk.Soooo it must just be you.

Yet Free LAVs are like free 150 points when they die.

You all dumb@sses cry that LAVs are major problem amd can kill you with little skill investment. going into LLAV requires 1.2M SP whereas Swarm proto only cost 600K SP.
Than swarms are not OP when we tankers talk about it. You deserved it by nerfing tankers that much.
Watchout! Im coming in my LAV.

150 SP from WP. 12,600 SP for the AV grenade that doesn't even one shot them. That's 84 free LABs you have to down with a militia swarm launcher.

Even then, Prototype AV grenades don't one shot them. I still call imbalanced design.

There is a free swarm fit. Guess they are not teaching you everything in school.

Soooo by your logic,If something is overpowered or grossly overused,it is ok as long as it gives points when killed? When a TAC AR wielder gets killed he gives points,better cancel that slight nerf.

You need to throw better. Seriously, aim for the freaking hood. Most of the ones you be throwing at are likely to be wounded from previous crashes. Set yourself in a place where if an LAV does try to run you over you can dodge it and laugh at their misfortune as they become stuck. Such as right next to the first supply depot by the table top on line harvest, got an LLAV the other day stuck there and well with a convenient supply of AV grenades you can guess what happened.

I can't even one shot militia LAVs with my proto railgun but you don't see me complaining.

Completely missed the point but whatever, CPM aren't for balancing anyway. GTFO of the thread.

My problem is people are trying to get something nerfed that almost doesn't need it and the only reason why free lavs are so obnoxious is the simple fact people don't want to go AV. I mean at the start of this little rampage I was on average the only AV on the field. Now a days its 2-3 guys that swap to AV weapons and setups.

Go tell that to the guys who specialize in AV and have to make due with the BS. Forge gun doesn't do much good when you can't get out of the way for a second shot. Supply depots aren't always on hand. Swarms barely keep up. Finally, there's so much AV Grenade QQ it's laughable, and I bet you're all for that.

My problem is people are trying to get something nerfed that almost doesn't need it and the only reason why free lavs are so obnoxious is the simple fact people don't want to go AV. I mean at the start of this little rampage I was on average the only AV on the field. Now a days its 2-3 guys that swap to AV weapons and setups.

1. If you are forge gunning (LAV) you should NOT be in a place that you can get ran over. Use the terrain, use your damn sensors, use the uplinks that are safe.
2. Squad up with a Logi
3. Calculate your swarm shots on the LAV better, know when to launch and when not to launch.
4. Yeah sometimes the grenade misses or nicks the vehicle and sometimes it hits the pilot and sometimes it hits the critical spot and blow up the LAV. I am sure its more of a problem shared by the mass driver and flaylock at times.

Edit: I paid aurum for my' free' AV suit and all of the modules except one, the AV grenade at a low low price of 4k.

My problem with free LAV's is that they're too effective. Yes, you can quickly drop everything you're doing, including your playstyle, JUST to take out one single LAV, or you can go Proto AV Grenades and hope to 2-shot them, or you can just give up and let stupid players misuse them and play a game of GTA in what is supposed to be a tactical shooter. LAV's are unpunishable unless you have completely prepared for it, and even once you DO kill it, they're free, and you'll have to keep switching to crappy AV until they stop, which they won't.

If people just used them right, I'd be fine. But 90% of LAV users now do nothing but drive around seeking roadkills.

My problem with free LAV's is that they're too effective. Yes, you can quickly drop everything you're doing, including your playstyle, JUST to take out one single LAV, or you can go Proto AV Grenades and hope to 2-shot them, or you can just give up and let stupid players misuse them and play a game of GTA in what is supposed to be a tactical shooter. LAV's are unpunishable unless you have completely prepared for it, and even once you DO kill it, they're free, and you'll have to keep switching to crappy AV until they stop, which they won't.

If people just used them right, I'd be fine. But 90% of LAV users now do nothing but drive around seeking roadkills.

My problem is people are trying to get something nerfed that almost doesn't need it and the only reason why free lavs are so obnoxious is the simple fact people don't want to go AV. I mean at the start of this little rampage I was on average the only AV on the field. Now a days its 2-3 guys that swap to AV weapons and setups.

Rubbish, no one wants to nerf the dedicated LAV drivers, if someone wants to spend millions of SP and tonnes of ISK being a LAV expert, more power to him. People are just sick of the swarms of no-risk, indestructible, free LAV. Make it cost, reduce its HPs a tad, leave the other LAVs as is, done.

You have to live as AV for 3/4 of the match if you want to keep up with the number of free LAVs on the field.

Rubbish, no one wants to nerf the dedicated LAV drivers, if someone wants to spend millions of SP and tonnes of ISK being a LAV expert, more power to him. People are just sick of the swarms of no-risk, indestructible, free LAV. Make it cost, reduce its HPs a tad, leave the other LAVs as is, done.

You have to live as AV for 3/4 of the match if you want to keep up with the number of free LAVs on the field.

Which in turn reduces the entire teams effectiveness. A potential tide Turner goes down every time someone has to switch to AV to deal with one guy while the rest of his team are at peak combat effectiveness

Well sister, I rather have one guy be a combat effective anti vehicle guy than having my entire squad being biological speed bumps.

Then advocate to remove BPO MLT LAVs. I have yet to see a valid argument as to why these are even provided.

My logic dictates that killing militia LAVs are so pathetically easy as an bare fit AV soldier its near effortless and essentially free points.

Its the LLAVs that give me a run for my money, or me being out of ammo.

I can aim a forge gun just fine btw, I just cant get to the superior position it demands for its use, anti-infantry typically kill me enroute.

I don't know what kind of skill multipliers the OP used in his calculations to determine that 1.2M SP is needed to skill into LLAV's, I did it with a starter SP char today.

Vehicle Command I: 6,220 SP

Caldari LAV I: 24,880. II: 74,600. III: 174,120

Caldari Logistics LAV I: 31,000

For a total of 310,920 SP To a logistics LAV.

Not that I'm complaining about LLAV's being OP, my beef is with Free militia BPO LAV's. Who the Hell ever thought they needed a 60% HP buff?! Seriously where the hell did that come from.

Honestly I think the problem lies in basic A/V weapons of all types no longer being able to OHK a Militia LAV, and people know this and take advantage of it to gain cheap kills.

Edit: An entirely militia fit Charbydis will run about 120K. Fit with a few Basic skill Shield modules and turret is up to around 150-160K. Although it will tank 4-5 MLT swarm volleys in succession and keep on trucking, 20+-0 is easy. Granted I've been playing academy battles with this char but I'm already at 12.07 k/d with 10,000 WP.

Yet Free LAVs are like free 150 points when they die.

Just snipe the guy out the front. And take it if its a LLAV ^^

Reminds me of last week. Was going full speed then I died all of a sudden going over that bridge between the two warehouses. Kill feed stated a Thale's. Props to whoever shot me. I do have a hard enough time making shots with ARs as it is.

I don't know what kind of skill multipliers the OP used in his calculations to determine that 1.2M SP is needed to skill into LLAV's, I did it with a starter SP char today.

Vehicle Command I: 6,220 SP

Caldari LAV I: 24,880. II: 74,600. III: 174,120

Caldari Logistics LAV I: 31,000

For a total of 310,920 SP To a logistics LAV.

Not that I'm complaining about LLAV's being OP, my beef is with Free militia BPO LAV's. Who the Hell ever thought they needed a 60% HP buff?! Seriously where the hell did that come from.

Honestly I think the problem lies in basic A/V weapons of all types no longer being able to OHK a Militia LAV, and people know this and take advantage of it to gain cheap kills.

Edit: An entirely militia fit Charbydis will run about 120K. Fit with a few Basic skill Shield modules and turret is up to around 150-160K. Although it will tank 4-5 MLT swarm volleys in succession and keep on trucking, 20+-0 is easy. Granted I've been playing academy battles with this char but I'm already at 12.07 k/d with 10,000 WP.

Now, I want you to drive around in said LLAV and compete against mine. The additional SP is spent on Core skills, a necessity if you want that LAV to survive the match, not just a throw away vehicle.

You all dumb@sses cry that LAVs are major problem and can kill you with little skill investment. going into LLAV requires 1.2M SP whereas Swarm proto only cost 600K SP.
Than swarms are not OP when we tankers talk about it. You deserved it by nerfing tankers that much.
Watchout! Im coming in my LAV.

Because I am moot on the BPO issue. My opinion is invalid because I use said BPOs to kill BPO LAVs.

I did say nothing Advanced or Prototype but that was more of a counter Pay to Win argument.

My next question is what's the cost of a similarly fit LAV that has been giving you guys trouble? I mean look at the LLAV I know those have to be a bit more expensive yet they are definetly not free, they cost quite a bit of skill points to support and they certainly don't die to AV grenades that easy.

Also I am not sure if you noticed but the Dragonfly Scout is now on sale for Aurum. Which means future sales may include other former package exclusive stuff. Maybe in 3 months you can see the Ishukone Watch LAV being for free.

Because I am moot on the BPO issue. My opinion is invalid because I use said BPOs to kill BPO LAVs.

I did say nothing Advanced or Prototype but that was more of a counter Pay to Win argument.

My next question is what's the cost of a similarly fit LAV that has been giving you guys trouble? I mean look at the LLAV I know those have to be a bit more expensive yet they are definetly not free, they cost quite a bit of skill points to support and they certainly don't die to AV grenades that easy.

Also I am not sure if you noticed but the Dragonfly Scout is now on sale for Aurum. Which means future sales may include other former package exclusive stuff. Maybe in 3 months you can see the Ishukone Watch LAV being for free.

My problem is people are trying to get something nerfed that almost doesn't need it and the only reason why free lavs are so obnoxious is the simple fact people don't want to go AV. I mean at the start of this little rampage I was on average the only AV on the field. Now a days its 2-3 guys that swap to AV weapons and setups.

BS!!!!!!!!!!
PROTOTYPE swarm launcher plus damage mods plus proficiency and the LAV does not die from SEVERAL! hits.
LLAV

If a PROTOTYPE AV has problems killing a jeep then the game is broken.
respec and tossed swarm launcher ......lol on pile of useless weapons.

Yet Free LAVs are like free 150 points when they die.

It makes for bad gameplay, which is the real killer for me.

Yea it's really dumb the logistics lavs simply don't die I've seen ppl go 40 & 0 just by running ppl over a enemy got one stuck and it took me 6 lvl 3avs 2 lvl 4 assault forge shots and a random with a swarm to destroy it

and i've done games this good with an assault suit. wats ur point?

Here's my take on this.

I can go 16-1 with a tank maybe better maybe worse

I can go 20-0 or 30-0 with a logi LAV. Normally 20-0

I can go 20-0 or 30-0 with a proto suit and Duvolle TAC.

IMO. Infantry Complain to much and cry about how hard it is and think how easy mode Vehicles are.

Vehicles Such as LLAVs are fine maybe could have a speed reduction so it's used more for a LLAV instead of a murder Taxi.
PPL using Ars such just adapt or die AV nades
Tanks r hard to use and could we could use some proto tanks.

As far as this i shouldn't have to carry av crap. Then i hope Vehicles desimate you. You were not prepared for the situation and earned your fate.

My problem with free LAV's is that they're too effective. Yes, you can quickly drop everything you're doing, including your playstyle, JUST to take out one single LAV, or you can go Proto AV Grenades and hope to 2-shot them, or you can just give up and let stupid players misuse them and play a game of GTA in what is supposed to be a tactical shooter. LAV's are unpunishable unless you have completely prepared for it, and even once you DO kill it, they're free, and you'll have to keep switching to crappy AV until they stop, which they won't.

If people just used them right, I'd be fine. But 90% of LAV users now do nothing but drive around seeking roadkills.

Also I do like the idea of swapping out the BPO lav for a BPO land speeder when they come out. About half the guys I see use LAV's don't bother waiting for passengers anyway so might as well fix that problem and be done with it.

ccp screwed that idea up anyway by releasing lav bpo's in merc packs. it might have fixed the problem by swapping with the speeder but its too late now. and because people payed for the item its un-likely they would remove them now. although less access to free ones would be better in the long run

150 SP from WP. 12,600 SP for the AV grenade that doesn't even one shot them. That's 84 free LABs you have to down with a militia swarm launcher.

Even then, Prototype AV grenades don't one shot them. I still call imbalanced design.

You all dumb@sses cry that LAVs are major problem and can kill you with little skill investment. going into LLAV requires 1.2M SP whereas Swarm proto only cost 600K SP.
Than swarms are not OP when we tankers talk about it. You deserved it by nerfing tankers that much.
Watchout! Im coming in my LAV.

If people just used them right, I'd be fine. But 90% of LAV users now do nothing but drive around seeking roadkills.

to get a swarm capable of killing a specced lav( the pimped out fully equipped lav's ), would require specialization most likely so 3 mil. then you will need weapon mods so 4.5 mil of course you will need a suit capable of using 3-4 damage mods so let's just go with proto spec for assault so 7.8 mil now while getting ot this point you will likely want another weapon because you can't AV all the time, so 10.8 mil you will need drop suit command, and engineering and electronics to fit all those weapon mods most likely, let's say 4 each, so 12 mil sp, and that's of course ignoring entirely side arms, armor, shields, etc

now you know why i'm only getting close to AV now...

I don't need LAV's to be nerfed into the ground, I just want the ridiculous insta-kill ability to stop.

My problem with free LAV's is that they're too effective. Yes, you can quickly drop everything you're doing, including your playstyle, JUST to take out one single LAV, or you can go Proto AV Grenades and hope to 2-shot them, or you can just give up and let stupid players misuse them and play a game of GTA in what is supposed to be a tactical shooter. LAV's are unpunishable unless you have completely prepared for it, and even once you DO kill it, they're free, and you'll have to keep switching to crappy AV until they stop, which they won't.

If people just used them right, I'd be fine. But 90% of LAV users now do nothing but drive around seeking roadkills.

I suggest you to learn to read also congrats about killing free lavs with no mods and zero SP. well fitted lav with high sp takes atleast 4 proto hits with damage mods when they are NOT MOVING.

Lets not start counting Vehicle skills?

Its the free LAV's that are the issue, there should be a limit to amount per match with them.

I don't think I should have to always carry av nades on an infantry based character.

BS!!!!!!!!!!
PROTOTYPE swarm launcher plus damage mods plus proficiency and the LAV does not die from SEVERAL! hits.
LLAV

If a PROTOTYPE AV has problems killing a jeep then the game is broken.
respec and tossed swarm launcher ......lol on pile of useless weapons.

LAVs as they are make the game progress or SP accumulation pointless.

This and this alone is the very reason why LAV's are problematic. When something is being intentionally used in a way that it wasn't really designed for, then something went wrong with the design. An LAV is the military video game version of a ummer. Hummers can be fitted with support guns to provide firepower in a maneuverable light armored vehicle (LAV). And trust me, marines are not running around in those hummers running over baddies 90% of the time. There's a reason why there's a "gun" mounted there.

But yet in this game, and yes I'm aware its a game. The LAV's rarely use that gun as their primary source of support. Does the description of the LAV even say "mainly used to run enemies over"? I don't think so.

If I have to pay to use Militia shotguns, flaylocks, etc., then LAVs equipped with turrets should have a cost.
If you can't run over somebody with a HAV, then LAVs shouldn't either.

IWS said the swarm launchers need a lock of nerf, ARE YOU SERIOUS? If anything they need a boost, guess he never fights against tanks with the damn thing. Its bad enough they have a crap amount of ammo now he wants all vehicles more time to be able to escape. Just awesome.

to get a swarm capable of killing a specced lav( the pimped out fully equipped lav's ), would require specialization most likely so 3 mil. then you will need weapon mods so 4.5 mil of course you will need a suit capable of using 3-4 damage mods so let's just go with proto spec for assault so 7.8 mil now while getting ot this point you will likely want another weapon because you can't AV all the time, so 10.8 mil you will need drop suit command, and engineering and electronics to fit all those weapon mods most likely, let's say 4 each, so 12 mil sp, and that's of course ignoring entirely side arms, armor, shields, etc

now you know why i'm only getting close to AV now...

I have to agree, the purpose of the LAV isn't be to spin around the map running everyone over. Why is getting run over an instant kill on suit with over 1000 EHP? It seems like losing some health and getting tossed around for a couple seconds would be enough.

I don't need LAV's to be nerfed into the ground, I just want the ridiculous insta-kill ability to stop. Toss me over the hood and take 100 HP, then let me get up, dust myself off, and keep playing if someone hasn't shot me in the couple seconds I've languished helplessly on the ground.

What it comes down to is this: Just being on the ground shouldn't automatically subject you to being run over and instantly killed by swarming LAV's. That's not a game I want to play. However it needs to happen, this needs to get fixed.

Are you spec'd out to deal with the problem? If not, then why are you complaining?

you can just give up and let stupid players misuse them and play a game of GTA in what is supposed to be a tactical shooter.

Red dots withs TACs and scrambers are over there...me and my Blue dots are over here. We cannot cross the open space between us to even hit the red dots over there before they mow us down.

Calling an LAV and driving over there so we can shoot those red dots is a tactic and therefor tactical.

Please sit down and shut up.

No, you do want them to be nerfed to the point of uselessness. If you've ever been in a LAV turret, you know how difficult it is to hit targets with them. Missiles are best when moving, blasters when slow, and the railguns are useless.

You're another one that wants physics to be denied.

This is a red herring. Free LAVs cost nothing to use, isk or SP-wise. You are asking people to invest both isk and sp into equipment to counter something that is both free and easy to use. Also, most AV builds are weak to anti-infantry. So on top of the isk and sp, you're asking players to make themselves weak in one aspect to counter free vehicle users who in turn risk nothing. The risk v reward balance is way off.

As far as LLAVs go, I'm willing to tolerate a modicum of murder taxi because these require sp and isk to use, but this just goes to show how shallow and poor Dust is as a shooter. These vehicles were meant to be mobile medics but instead are more efficient at farming kills. CCP has a ton of work to do before this game is even remotely close to being balanced.

I would love for the turrets on LAV's to get fixed as well, so they're actually useful for something. But having them run around all over the place instantly killing people because they got nicked by the front bumper is neither realistic, nor fun, nor balanced.

LOL I'm not asking anybody to do anything. The majority have advanced AV grenades, which aren't enough. Is it my fault they won't spec out for proto AV grenades, or advanced swarm launchers? Is it my fault the number of people that use forge guns has dropped drastically?

If you won't invest the ISK and SP to counter my vehicles, then why are you complaining? Put up or shut up.

Try again, son.

HTFU

LOL I'm not asking anybody to do anything. The majority have advanced AV grenades, which aren't enough. Is it my fault they won't spec out for proto AV grenades, or advanced swarm launchers? Is it my fault the number of people that use forge guns has dropped drastically?

If you won't invest the ISK and SP to counter my vehicles, then why are you complaining? Put up or shut up.

My logic dictates that killing militia LAVs are so pathetically easy as an bare fit AV soldier its near effortless and essentially free points.

Its the LLAVs that give me a run for my money, or me being out of ammo.

I can aim a forge gun just fine btw, I just cant get to the superior position it demands for its use, anti-infantry typically kill me enroute.

You all dumb@sses cry that LAVs are major problem and can kill you with little skill investment. going into LLAV requires 1.2M SP whereas Swarm proto only cost 600K SP.
Than swarms are not OP when we tankers talk about it. You deserved it by nerfing tankers that much.
Watchout! Im coming in my LAV.

So you're saying that against a MILITIA vehicle, it's reasonable to expect players to need to skill into PROTOTYPE gear to counter you?



I wish HAVs were as survivable as LAVs...

Right over your head I see. Don't get discouraged, we'll get that reading comprehension of yours up to 3rd grade level if it takes10 pages.

When CCP finds a fix for one of the sorriest tactics to hit a FPS it will be one of the greatest accomplishments to come from CCP since Eve online.

Add on: Free lav should be like tissue paper. Their only purpose being to transport people from on area to another, not be used as one of the most op weapons in any match. SMH.

And someone explain to me how my advanced A/V grenades are more effective against tanks then a militia lav. Something is wrong here.

Everybody and their mother stacking damage mods on proto suits with Duvolle TARs isn't cheap?

You're another one that wants physics to be denied?

You didn't buy any hacked EX-0s when they were on the market? Not my fault.

Swarm launchers are free and easy to use. I forgot the part where vehicles have a fire and forget weapon.

Well sister, I rather have one guy be a combat effective anti vehicle guy than having my entire squad being biological speed bumps.

Don't deny physics then, just get rid of the free lav. Since physics are a big deal to you, lets not give someone with no sp invested the ability to kill someone with sp invested, so easily. Physics will not allow that. I mean this is an sp based game right? So I say no more free anything. You get sp to start so use it.

Also I feel like this if u can't shoot why play a game where your ability to stay alive depends on how well u shoot?

to get a swarm capable of killing a specced lav( the pimped out fully equipped lav's ), would require specialization most likely so 3 mil. then you will need weapon mods so 4.5 mil of course you will need a suit capable of using 3-4 damage mods so let's just go with proto spec for assault so 7.8 mil now while getting ot this point you will likely want another weapon because you can't AV all the time, so 10.8 mil you will need drop suit command, and engineering and electronics to fit all those weapon mods most likely, let's say 4 each, so 12 mil sp, and that's of course ignoring entirely side arms, armor, shields, etc

now you know why i'm only getting close to AV now...

You all dumb@sses cry that LAVs are major problem and can kill you with little skill investment. going into LLAV requires 1.2M SP whereas Swarm proto only cost 600K SP.
Than swarms are not OP when we tankers talk about it. You deserved it by nerfing tankers that much.
Watchout! Im coming in my LAV.

Yet Free LAVs are like free 150 points when they die.

I put 7m into my LAV

That's a straw man argument and is not based in reality, or digital reality.

Never said there wasn't.I am saying I shouldn't have to CONSTANTLY have it out cause noobs can't aim a gun.

Don't deny physics then, just get rid of the free lav. Since physics are a big deal to you, lets not give someone with no sp invested the ability to kill someone with sp invested, so easily. Physics will not allow that. I mean this is an sp based game right? So I say no more free anything. You get sp to start so use it.

Also I feel like this if u can't shoot why play a game where your ability to stay alive depends on how well u shoot?

You also forgot about the part where Swarms are useless against infantry and require sp investment to be truly effective against LAVs.

Bro, I run AV 24/7 I used my Respec to invest in the Proto Specialist Swarm Launcher. All I can say is, it still takes 2 swarms to take out a militia LAV. I can not even destroy an LAV until they have already run over the guy they were trying to hit.

Point is, don't nerf the Swarm Launcher. Trust me, you know not what you speak of. Also, I usually get in the top three in terms of kills even while running AV. really pisses me off when people say that AV is easy...

Lawl, i wanna be your gunner

What funk kind of answer is that? Digital reality?

So you mean I have to make physics in the game in accordance to the fake physics that some one came up with based on fake physics that sounded good in your head, that is based off of real physics.

Do you see the problem with arguments like this^?

They are stupidly endless... You can never ' win', because any one can pull out a pseudo scientific argument against your [pseudo scientific argument. This argument (pseudo scientific) should never be used in a pseudo scientific game like Dust 514. At least not when people are trying to 'prove' it.

Bro, I run AV 24/7 I used my Respec to invest in the Proto Specialist Swarm Launcher. All I can say is, it still takes 2 swarms to take out a militia LAV. I can not even destroy an LAV until they have already run over the guy they were trying to hit.

Point is, don't nerf the Swarm Launcher. Trust me, you know not what you speak of. Also, I usually get in the top three in terms of kills even while running AV. really pisses me off when people say that AV is easy...

Fire and forget weapons are easy. I'll wait a couple of years for you to prove to me that fire and forget weapons are hard to use.

If you can't kill a militia LAV in one shot with a Proto SL then your doing it wrong.

Just before, I was trying to engage a red dot and heard a LAV near me, so what did I do? Killed the red dot, and jumped at what I thought was the right time, then started playing rodeo with the clown car.

It helps to have a working brain to deal with situations.

If you can't kill a militia LAV in one shot with a Proto SL then your doing it wrong.