The funny/worst part is, we've had absolutely 0 acknowledgement from CCP re: the TAC. No 'Working as inteded', no 'Broken weapon, we know', no 'We've got higher priorities'.. Nothing.

That's what stings the most. If they had plans to fix it, they should say it. Don't get me wrong - Dust DEV's Best Devs - but it seems that the actual devs of the game are the ones making the posts. No department dedicated to the forums. So if the devs are busy(which im about 100% sure they are), they cant really interact with us forum trolls.

It's a vicious cycle. :(

CPMs fault.

To make a real life comparison, it's like saying that a .50 (what the large blaster represents) is the same as a .556 (what assault rifles are). CCP, you NEED to nerf this thing. If you're nerfing tanks bc we kill too many people, then this thing needs a double nerf bc NO tank can cause the amount of pain this can bc it can go ANYWHERE.

What I don't understand is why CCP does not tone TAC's down (dmg/rof/range) bit by bit, finding balance that way?

Why all so HUGE changes which lead to inevitable imbalance?

Trying to appeal to the CoD/BF crowd?

Another moron that thinks those games have 1 weapon in the game almost everyone uses, when in actuality those games have weapon variety. It's this community CCP is appealing to, not any other that cried buff, nerf, buff. Players from "COD/BF" that are coming in droves are seeing the imbalance.

Stacking 4-5 damage mod might look good, but doing that decrease your chances of survival in the battlefield, and there is also a stacking penalty, the more mods of the same type you put, the less it becomes effective. If you see those players doing 20-30 kills per match, it's not because of stacking damage mods (unless their snipers), it's because they have 1 complex damage mod, 2-4 complex shield extender, (one shield regulator for Caldaris if they feel like it), and a plate repair. They focus on surviving against close up gunfights, TAR is good enough with just one damage mod.

Don't be silly, CoD/BF players care more about racking up kills than balance. That's why the TAR will probably never be touched, let alone the entire AR line.

Your being silly if you think any of those 2 games have 1 weapon 90% of the community uses. I stated those gamed have balance in their weapons. Who gives a **** what they care about. Don't try to derail the points I'm trying to make. It just makes you look more dum.

Slaping on 2 to 4 damage mods on a suit is perfectly viable if you play it right. I sometimes run a standard assult caldari suit with a standard assult rifile and roll proto gear face with godly scores. Yes, it is because i am more skilled than the average blue berry but the point is, ANYTHING is effective in pubs and 95% of dust players do not play pc ( i will show the math if you think im kidding). They do not enjoy pubs, and skilled players can run these kinds of builds in PC. The TAC is more than overpowered and its MORE than a portable blaster weapon. At this point, It is an exploit

QQ some more an exploit gtfo you still have to land your shots and in this regard the ROF of the blasters out DPS the rifles. You might have convinced me on a slight ROF reduction and a wider dispersion so hipfire wastn't as easy to use to get kills but honestly maple you just come off like a whiny child along with the rest of the TAR is OP crowd. The AR is a precision weapon so of course its DPS potential is amazing but you have to hit your shots and make them count.

Stacking damage mods is about risk reward. You reference 5 high slot suits which one minimatar assault or the caldari logi becuse the minimatar suit struggles on the CPU/PG end of things to create its balance.

So oh the caldari logi you mean the suit that almost all agree needs to lose its role bonus(some argue a low slot; i dont the role bonus is suffficient enough to bring it back in line). Well now you have whats known as a confounding variable. You cant measure the TAR on its own if its being used in conjuction with an unbalanced suit.


So yea throwing numbers at me doesnt do anything for me, next time try context and you may be able to convince me.

So these are very simular weapons, both doing simular amounts of damage, rate of fire and "clip" size.
If you really wanna, you can have a tank cannon in your hands. Choose your tank cannon and slap on the correct amount of damage mods, you have a blaster. The only diffrence is you can fit your Duvolle in tight spaces

The diffrence is that you can one shot infantry, but Tac infantry can only scratch your paint.

I can see why Infantry whines about it, i don't get why tankers need to whine about it ?

QQ some more an exploit gtfo you still have to land your shots and in this regard the ROF of the blasters out DPS the rifles. You might have convinced me on a slight ROF reduction and a wider dispersion so hipfire wastn't as easy to use to get kills but honestly maple you just come off like a whiny child along with the rest of the TAR is OP crowd. The AR is a precision weapon so of course its DPS potential is amazing but you have to hit your shots and make them count.

Stacking damage mods is about risk reward. You reference 5 high slot suits which one minimatar assault or the caldari logi becuse the minimatar suit struggles on the CPU/PG end of things to create its balance.

So oh the caldari logi you mean the suit that almost all agree needs to lose its role bonus(some argue a low slot; i dont the role bonus is suffficient enough to bring it back in line). Well now you have whats known as a confounding variable. You cant measure the TAR on its own if its being used in conjuction with an unbalanced suit.


So yea throwing numbers at me doesnt do anything for me, next time try context and you may be able to convince me.

Tanks do not need to whine about it, it does like 7% efficiency rate against vehicals lol like you said its all about infaintry

A +100 to you Sir.
And the AR is very expensiv. I can use it, but I don't do it allways, loosing one hurts me alot!
Damagemods? omfg! Areou insane? I'm using this thing in a "as mutch tank as possible" suit and i'm craping myself if it comes to a 1 on 1. Again, loosing this thing hurts a lot, and to be effectiv you first have to hit. And a have never sean a HAV with a AR mountet ...

The Duvolle Tac has 78.5 damage, pretty fair amount, a proto blaster turrent, the ion cannon. does 136.5. about half as much damage, seems ligit. But if you have pro 5 (3% damage increase per level) 78.5 raises to 90.275. If you are in the caldari or mini assult you have lots of high slots (4 and 5 respectably). Slap on 4 damage mods and 90.275 raises to 121.675 damage per shot.

Then i dont see why you need to vs use the tank gun caliber damage to use in your post, they use the same metrics in damage applied, but one of them cant shoot at oranges, only apples.

And while i agree the TAC needs to be balanced, comparing it to a tank turret is not the way to go.

Just so u know as a expert ar user I think a regular ar is better than a tac..... Ill let others figure it out :) (psst I know what I'm talking about)

Stacking penalties apply to the complex damage mods. 4 of them will net you 29.96% damage increase not 40%.

http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Stacking_Penalties

Just so u know as a expert ar user I think a regular ar is better than a tac..... Ill let others figure it out :) (psst I know what I'm talking about)

Lol maple you can stack damage mods on tanks too, and if you use it right it has the highest DPS. Lol see how dumb that sounds?

Things a tank can do an AR can't, let's start with the most obvious, it has a lot of EHP compared to any suit. Lets not forget the infinite ammo like come on, do you even pay attention to this game or do you just find spent big you don't like and cry about it. When I cried about something I had legit complaints and understood how it was broken. Now lets move on from just throwing a tantrum maple and lets fix the other 99% of this game that is broken.

It certianly is the way to go, it clearly can do as much damage as a proto tank turrent. Its not an AV weapon so it will not kill tanks like a tank blaster will but it certainly preforms simularly to kill infaintry. I did not say it is exactly as effective as a tank blaster turrent but the facts are there and tons of ppl know how it works in game. If you like, i can spec an alt into proto assult with cpu enhancers damage mod D TAC and post up a video on how badly i would destroy in PC and pubs?

okay lets do the math with this instead. Throw on 4 damage mods and the stacking penalties are reduced from 40% to 29.96%.

Lets add profficentcy 5 to both of them.
4 damage mods (no stack penalty) + 15% pro = +55% damage wich turns D tac into 121.675
4 damage mods (with stacking penalty) + 15% pro = + 44.96% wich turns D tac into 113.7936

Okay that makes a diffrence of 7.8814. Soo its equivilant ADV blaster tank turrent per shot... getting better

Dident say you dident nikia your awsume with ARs. Though this is all about math and practise

Riiight, like 90% of the people in CoD don't use SMGs...

Only person looking silly is you. I made a smart ass comment and you got all butthurt. You on Activision's payroll or something?

Not sure it works that way.

I think (I could be wrong here though) that it works like this:

Base Damage x Skills Bonus x Modifiers

So in our case it would be:

78.5 * 1.15 * 1.2996 = 117 damage per shot

Hate to be the bearer of bad news Exmaple Core, but tank turrets just got ninja nerfed. I hope you don't have to redo your math because of this.

okay lets do the math with this instead. Throw on 4 damage mods and the stacking penalties are reduced from 40% to 29.96%.

Lets add profficentcy 5 to both of them.
4 damage mods (no stack penalty) + 15% pro = +55% damage wich turns D tac into 121.675
4 damage mods (with stacking penalty) + 15% pro = + 44.96% wich turns D tac into 113.7936

Okay that makes a diffrence of 7.8814. Soo its equivilant ADV blaster tank turrent per shot... getting better

Try it with the Skills and Damage Mods applied to the Turret please. THEN compare.

We are all well aware that the tank blaster turrent can do faaaar more damage because you can add damage mods and skills on them too. Im simply throwing up the math and pointing out how simular they are and they are pretty simular. Wouldent you agree? As much as im not paying attention to the game your not paying attention to what everyone is talking about on this post. Its not about a tank being better than a dropsuit or having ammo diffrences its how simular the weapons are

They are not similar at all. This is what happens when people who don't use a class cry about what you can do with that said class/weapon. I'm pointing out how ignorant people choose to see only the things they want to and not the whole thing. Till you do that, all you are doing is throwing a tantrum like a 12 year old brat

The funny/worst part is, we've had absolutely 0 acknowledgement from CCP re: the TAC. No 'Working as inteded', no 'Broken weapon, we know', no 'We've got higher priorities'.. Nothing.

That's what stings the most. If they had plans to fix it, they should say it. Don't get me wrong - Dust DEV's Best Devs - but it seems that the actual devs of the game are the ones making the posts. No department dedicated to the forums. So if the devs are busy(which im about 100% sure they are), they cant really interact with us forum trolls.

It's a vicious cycle. :(

Whoa i can blow up tanks with a TAR who knew

Scrambler rifles and SMG user here so yea come at me bro about my TAR abuse.

Something else to keep in mind. Assuming you use a Caldari ck.0 proto suit, you have 4 high slots for your damage mods. However without shields in those slots you're going to be fairly vulnerable to return fire. Sure you can take proto assaults down in 4-5 hits but they can probably do the same to you with your 330 basic EHP. Armour plates might give you an addition shot or two of survivability but a scrambler will mince you quickly, no?

to be honest the weapon shouldnt be nerfed its the damage mods that are making the weapon this powerful. all ccp has to do is only let you use 1 damage mod per suit and this theory changes. its a tac rifle its going to be powerful. no offence to any of the greats in the game but seriously guys stop posting nerf this nerf that threads post like this is what screwed the build up in the first place.
dont you people learn?

Yes but this still works in pubs because everyone you see in pubs is bad for some reason. And in some PC battles this is viable. Not saying alot lol but you could defend or take a district against a bad team with this and win or be veryyy cautious and play hard in serrious games, i bet i could pull it off and some other great players if we played as gay as we could with vantage points and squads. But srly this is about this being possible at all

As you all know, this weapon is the go to weapon for noobs, casuals, ringers, hardcore players, CPMs, pubs, PC, ect. We all bickered about the weapon because its too powerful but there has been a lack of proper reasoning beyond bable. Heres my bable:


The Duvolle Tac has 78.5 damage, pretty fair amount, a proto blaster turrent, the ion cannon. does 136.5. about half as much damage, seems ligit. But if you have pro 5 (3% damage increase per level) 78.5 raises to 90.275. If you are in the caldari or mini assult you have lots of high slots (4 and 5 respectably). Slap on 4 damage mods and 90.275 raises to 121.675 damage per shot.

Pro 5 is VERY easy to do and will basically be manditory with the respec and reduction in SP cost. 4 damage mods is ligit if your doing some support gunning behind the scenes, if you disagree it is certainly used in pubs. So with how easy this will be to obtain for alot of players, PC demands this exploit. In conclusion, DUST's most common battlefeild weapon can do more damage than ANY non proto blaster turrent. If you want more sheilds then take off a damage mod or 2 and your doing as much damage as low grade advanced tank turrents.

Lets compare this fit to an Ion Cannon.

This AR does 121.675 damage, only 14.85 damage less than an Ion Cannon
The Duvolle Tac has a 30 round clip wich is about equivilant in the volume of rounds of the ion cannon's coolent before it overheats.
Both have 100% perfect accuracy
Both can zoom
The Tac does not have a small blast but the Ion Cannon does
The rate of fire can be jus as bast as Ion Cannon with no damage/rof enhancer with a fast trigger (no skill required)
Both are hybrid weapons (does 100% damage to both sheilds and armor)

So these are very simular weapons, both doing simular amounts of damage, rate of fire and "clip" size.
If you really wanna, you can have a tank cannon in your hands. Choose your tank cannon and slap on the correct amount of damage mods, you have a blaster. The only diffrence is you can fit your Duvolle in tight spaces

I posted this as a heads up to warn ppl "hey, that squad of 4-6" ppl have weapons that do compareable damage to tank turrent, look out!" Never said nerf it :)

Players not good with douv tac will continue to justify a nerf for it, I guess that's what happens when you can't compete.


Just know, a nerf will never make you a good player.

see I used the tac in Chromosome and while everyone said it was trash and had too much recoil, I actually found it a viable weapon. You had to counter the recoil with the right stick and take advantage of the camera sight to get those headshots. It took skill. Now, I can even tell when I'm killed by a tac without looking at the feed due to how abnormally fast that thing kills you.

I'd say nerf the damage output, but honestly I'd just remove it from the game at this point... the tac single handedly renders a handful of weapons obsolete as it stands. (I miss being cooked by viziams)

As zitro stated above you can add damage mods and skills to tanks so they can be made to do more damage. But this thing can be strikingly simular to some tanks damage output. Not a good tank, a gunlogi with a blaster and no damage mods

Buff the range on other guns (not TAC) and you will see a big difference.

If youre going to nerf the Duvolle/GLU, then nerf the shotgun. I can see a TAC user coming, a TAC won't take me down with 1 shot. A shotgun will and you ususally don't see the user or hear the shot anymore.

Maple I can put up some numbers an call it math as well. Lots of different combinations you can use to tweak the numbers one way or another, math is funny that way.


Lets say they nerf the TAC, which weapon will everyone goto? Easy, Scrambler Rifle, then we will have a ton of people wanting that nerfed.


Instead of finding the OP weapon and calling for a nerf. Point it out and ask for a buff of all the other weapons. Sick of all the different weapons in this game (has alot that arent AR) being nerfed to **** when people cry OP. But noone asks for weapons to be buffed...

Tanks need a buff, all weapons need a 10% range increase just to see how that would affect medium range gunplay. As it stands now, if you don't use a TAC, you will get outranged.

Buff the range on other guns (not TAC) and you will see a big difference.

As you all know, this weapon is the go to weapon for noobs, casuals, ringers, hardcore players, CPMs, pubs, PC, ect. We all bickered about the weapon because its too powerful but there has been a lack of proper reasoning beyond bable. Heres my bable:


The Duvolle Tac has 78.5 damage, pretty fair amount, a proto blaster turrent, the ion cannon. does 136.5. about half as much damage, seems ligit. But if you have pro 5 (3% damage increase per level) 78.5 raises to 90.275. If you are in the caldari or mini assult you have lots of high slots (4 and 5 respectably). Slap on 4 damage mods and 90.275 raises to 121.675 damage per shot.

Pro 5 is VERY easy to do and will basically be manditory with the respec and reduction in SP cost. 4 damage mods is ligit if your doing some support gunning behind the scenes, if you disagree it is certainly used in pubs. So with how easy this will be to obtain for alot of players, PC demands this exploit. In conclusion, DUST's most common battlefeild weapon can do more damage than ANY non proto blaster turrent. If you want more sheilds then take off a damage mod or 2 and your doing as much damage as low grade advanced tank turrents.

Lets compare this fit to an Ion Cannon.

This AR does 121.675 damage, only 14.85 damage less than an Ion Cannon
The Duvolle Tac has a 30 round clip wich is about equivilant in the volume of rounds of the ion cannon's coolent before it overheats.
Both have 100% perfect accuracy
Both can zoom
The Tac does not have a small blast but the Ion Cannon does
The rate of fire can be jus as bast as Ion Cannon with no damage/rof enhancer with a fast trigger (no skill required)
Both are hybrid weapons (does 100% damage to both sheilds and armor)

So these are very simular weapons, both doing simular amounts of damage, rate of fire and "clip" size.
If you really wanna, you can have a tank cannon in your hands. Choose your tank cannon and slap on the correct amount of damage mods, you have a blaster. The only diffrence is you can fit your Duvolle in tight spaces

The only change that really needs to be made on this weapon is the removal of the 10% dmg buff that all weapons rcv'd. That was not needed for this weapon. Otherwise the weapon has plenty of drawbacks. Its ok in CQC but the reg AR is much better in CQC than the tact rifle. I understand most of you guys are upset because you liked the fact that last build the tact rifle was absolutely junk. Now they increased the dmg and lowered the recoil slightly such that it is a good choice again. Also another reason why you see it alot is because CCP nerfed all ranges.....which means the guns that have longer natural ranges will be in higher demand now.

That said the ONLY real issue on TAR is its hipfire dispersion and it being far too easy to kill while hipfiring the weapon and possibly its ROF in conjuction with hipfire but its hard to isolate the 2 from each other which is why CCP needs to tweak one and leave the other before they tweak both; confounding variable this is how they work and you control for one to test the other that is what is known as multivariate analysis



Professor Nightingale out,

Class dismissed

Try it with the Skills and Damage Mods applied to the Turret please. THEN compare.

Okay nerds let me explain the concept of a confounding variable.

A hidden unseen variable that masks the true effect of the desired variable.

The caldari logi suit and damage mod stacking are 2 of these in your justification maple.


Moreover to all you spreadsheet my MATH is MATH(numbers don't lie crowd) out there let me explain this in simple terms

FPS =\= MAGIC THE GATHERING ; i dont't simply turn my card and magically do full DPS on an enemy, there is a difference between theoretical DPS and actual/realized DPS.

Moreover DPS is meaningless because it operates under the assumption of continued un-interrupted fire over a 60s interval and yet people forget to factor in the clips of weapons, as well as recoil, weapon accuracy vs user accuracy, and the fact that you simply aren't outputting all that damage at once.

See this is why we can't have nice things in Dust, a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals who come in and say oh look at my numbers they are MATH so they MUST be correct, WRONG numbers can lie if you are operating under crap assumptions which is exactly what DPS is in an FPS a crap assumption.

Im not going to waste my time lecturing people on statistical analysis methodologies and sources of error, I simply don't have the patience or the time. Suffice to say if CCP is going to be monitoring the TAR (as they should all weapons) they best be monitoring the most successful teams in PC and the not so successful teams in PC and see if it is just TAR or if there are other variable at play too.



That said the ONLY real issue on TAR is its hipfire dispersion and it being far too easy to kill while hipfiring the weapon and possibly its ROF in conjuction with hipfire but its hard to isolate the 2 from each other which is why CCP needs to tweak one and leave the other before they tweak both; confounding variable this is how they work and you control for one to test the other that is what is known as multivariate analysis



Professor Nightingale out,

Class dismissed

Ethire way its there. Ethire 3 formulas

brown noser...

^ The problem.

Also, Maple, you might want to apply to CCP, they also like to balance the game using their infamous math and data. They have done great job so far, haven't they?

Tac rifles should have a huge -75% accuracy penalty while hip firing, a 20-30% drop in ammo per magazine, and a 25% longer reload time.

They shouldn't be useless in close quarters, but they shoudn't be the all around go to weapon either.

Damage is fine, fire rate is fine. It just needs A Bit of risk added to the reward.

I knew the whole AR line out DPSes every weapon in the game, but this is kind of excessive. That damn thing needs to be nerfed.

As you all know, this weapon is the go to weapon for noobs, casuals, ringers, hardcore players, CPMs, pubs, PC, ect. We all bickered about the weapon because its too powerful but there has been a lack of proper reasoning beyond bable. Heres my bable:


The Duvolle Tac has 78.5 damage, pretty fair amount, a proto blaster turrent, the ion cannon. does 136.5. about half as much damage, seems ligit. But if you have pro 5 (3% damage increase per level) 78.5 raises to 90.275. If you are in the caldari or mini assult you have lots of high slots (4 and 5 respectably). Slap on 4 damage mods and 90.275 raises to 121.675 damage per shot.

Pro 5 is VERY easy to do and will basically be manditory with the respec and reduction in SP cost. 4 damage mods is ligit if your doing some support gunning behind the scenes, if you disagree it is certainly used in pubs. So with how easy this will be to obtain for alot of players, PC demands this exploit. In conclusion, DUST's most common battlefeild weapon can do more damage than ANY non proto blaster turrent. If you want more sheilds then take off a damage mod or 2 and your doing as much damage as low grade advanced tank turrents.

Lets compare this fit to an Ion Cannon.

This AR does 121.675 damage, only 14.85 damage less than an Ion Cannon
The Duvolle Tac has a 30 round clip wich is about equivilant in the volume of rounds of the ion cannon's coolent before it overheats.
Both have 100% perfect accuracy
Both can zoom
The Tac does not have a small blast but the Ion Cannon does
The rate of fire can be jus as bast as Ion Cannon with no damage/rof enhancer with a fast trigger (no skill required)
Both are hybrid weapons (does 100% damage to both sheilds and armor)

So these are very simular weapons, both doing simular amounts of damage, rate of fire and "clip" size.
If you really wanna, you can have a tank cannon in your hands. Choose your tank cannon and slap on the correct amount of damage mods, you have a blaster. The only diffrence is you can fit your Duvolle in tight spaces