All this talk about how it should take teamwork to use a tank yet atm it takes no teamwork to take out a tank with AV since AV got buff after buff and vehicles got nerf after nerf so you can solo vehicles with ease

Your post was fine until this appeared, And the exageration was just too strong.

Im running advanced swarms (Level 3 Swarm Launcher Skill) and to take a Gunlogi your going to need more than one (Madrugars i can solo). Or a lucky position were you can get above the tank an rain Packed AV nades on it. Both situations in Ambush maps arent very frequent.

If you play Skirmish 24/7 then ofcoarse your going to get the tank if its not well equiped or does something stupid, in ambush with the bad spawns its one sided.

'Its obvious to anyone who plays Dust 514 that its a shooter cut from a different mold than any you often see in the genre. Take snipers for instance, historically a one shot kill weapon in most games, in Dust, snipers are more of a 'wounding' weapon until leveled up considerably. Even then, the mechanics like scope sway and small clip size punish poor marksmen who seek out the sniper role as a means of getting easy kills with little risk. Racking up cheap kills just isnt going to happen.

For this reason, the tank is puzzling. The Dust 514 HAV is easily the most dominant vehicle we have seen in the FPS landscape, it crushes new players and non-AV savvy veterans alike. AV fits almost have to be dedicated to their destruction or they can control an entire battlefield. Some of the fault lies on past shooters where players were trained that a specific amount of RPGs or mines would destroy or cripple a tank. This is anything but true in Dust where every tank experience is unique and each must first be identified, sized up and then focused on. We are curious why the decision was made to require team coordination to destroy a tank, but not to operate one.'

read the rest here: http://tinyurl.com/d39jkey

'Its obvious to anyone who plays Dust 514 that its a shooter cut from a different mold than any you often see in the genre. Take snipers for instance, historically a one shot kill weapon in most games, in Dust, snipers are more of a 'wounding' weapon until leveled up considerably. Even then, the mechanics like scope sway and small clip size punish poor marksmen who seek out the sniper role as a means of getting easy kills with little risk. Racking up cheap kills just isnt going to happen.

For this reason, the tank is puzzling. The Dust 514 HAV is easily the most dominant vehicle we have seen in the FPS landscape, it crushes new players and non-AV savvy veterans alike. AV fits almost have to be dedicated to their destruction or they can control an entire battlefield. Some of the fault lies on past shooters where players were trained that a specific amount of RPGs or mines would destroy or cripple a tank. This is anything but true in Dust where every tank experience is unique and each must first be identified, sized up and then focused on. We are curious why the decision was made to require team coordination to destroy a tank, but not to operate one.'

read the rest here: http://tinyurl.com/d39jkey

tanker butthurt strong this morning. +1 to this and especially crippling.

lool another moron who wants that their militia swarm launcher should insta pop a sagaris. Just GTFO. i first off have to spend millions of SP and then i spend 2.5 million for my sagaris just to see that some blueberry uses the main gun on my tank? Hell no.

I was torn but after seeing poor logic like this, I support it. instapop? did we read the same thing? they didnt mention anything about nerfing the piece talks about separating the driver and gunner. Isnt this the same thing dropship pilots have to do?

Dropship is to LAV.......... This Post is irrelevant. Wait 'till Gunships, Jets & Mechs hit & you will realize how utterly ignorant you sound today.

lool another moron who wants that their militia swarm launcher should insta pop a sagaris. Just GTFO. And of course you need to specialise into AV to be efficent at it. And you havent seen the Ishukone assault forgegun on a proto heavy with tons of damage mods on it. That thing can deal 2000HP+ damage and thats allready with all the resistance added to it. Its more the other way around:
a dedicated heavy forgegunner is capable to keep multiple tanks at bay. Whoever wrote that stupid article is a moron and probably never tried to use a tank vs decent infantry. Its extreme hard to keep a tank alive when facing decent players.Another thing is tanks are OB magnets. When people see a sagaris/surya on the field they want to see it dead And lol at seperating the main turret from the dirver. Dude seriously? The guy who calls in the vehicle pays for it and actually had to skill into the whole loadout. In order to gain access to the large turrets you need to spec small turrets up to lvl 4 and then you are allowed to get the main gun. Oh yeah and dont forget the "other vehicles" which have at the moment the function of disposable taxis cause their small turrets are garbage. So you want to tell me that i first off have to spend millions of SP and then i spend 2.5 million for my sagaris just to see that some blueberry uses the main gun on my tank? Hell no.

I greatly agree with most of the blog however I do think that it might be relatively too late to change things now that everyone use to how the tanks run. If for example ccp had cut out the second small turret and left the 3 positions such as main turret, driver, and small turret, the tank would in my opinion would be even more effective than it already is and tank crews would be highly sought after commodities in new eden. For example the turrets concentrate on killing things and the drive focuses on keeping the tank alive and out of harms way. That i think is balanced and might even push tanks more firmly into their respective role as game changers but with more teamwork as far as running it properly. Also, damaging a tank or critically wounding it i think is all part of the strategy of taking it out, however i disagree with this point considering that in new eden there exists modules and equipment designed specifically for disabling ships and vehicles which will no doubt be introduced in the coming months.

Just my opinion, good thread though.

The assault dropship will probs be the direct counter against tanks. And do you guys know why? Cause a tank is not capable to shot anything thats flying stright above it. And sure crippling effect why dont we add that to dropsuits aswell? If i shot your right hand you are unable to use any kind of weapon at all. Makes perfect sense.... NOT!

Have you even been in the drivers seat of a tank? You have no idea what you are talking about.

Nerfing tanks to oblivion will not make them mire tactical. It'll just make them useless.

non-AV savvy veterans

Your post was fine until this appeared, And the exageration was just too strong.

Im running advanced swarms (Level 3 Swarm Launcher Skill) and to take a Gunlogi your going to need more than one (Madrugars i can solo). Or a lucky position were you can get above the tank an rain Packed AV nades on it. Both situations in Ambush maps arent very frequent.

If you play Skirmish 24/7 then ofcoarse your going to get the tank if its not well equiped or does something stupid, in ambush with the bad spawns its one sided.

3. Tanks like all vehicle assets should have locks that the operator can control preventing anyone from entering the driver seat or the vehicle GÇô yes it is needed.

The people who say tankers are butthurt are the people who are butthurt because of tankers.

doubt it. most organized groups counter tanks just fine. they dont OHK them but they dont run from them.

he's right tho. M1 Abrams has a 4man crew. kind of odd a dropship pilot cant fire but a tank driver can.

In the current state, Tanks (nor dropships for that matter) have the tanking ability to warrant splitting up the driver and gunner. The reason why pilots are salivating at the mouth over these Assault Dropships is because they'll finally have control over their own destiny. They would need a massive defensive boost to compensate.

The reason why tanks dominate is because <.01% of Dust players have any AV skills and even fewer have Prototype level AV gear. They dominate pub matches, just like Heavies did in the early part of this build. Anyone coordinated squad with a dedicated AV specialist is going to absolutely wreck a lone tanker. No contest. Tanks require teamwork in their own right. They need spotters and communication to function properly and have efficient Infantry squad mates to eliminate HVT that pose a threat to the tank.

A tanker going alone is going to get wrecked by any squad effort. People put too much weight on the scores Tankers rack up going against Team Militia. It's a failure of matchmaking at that point, not the fault of the tank.

I agree with Point 3 and 4 of your blog, though. The Squad Lock and the Recover Asset function would be greatly appreciated across all vehicles. Another change is to increase or removal altogether the auto self-destruct function that vehicles possess after leaving the vehicle for a set amount of time. To make it less intensive, make it so Militia vehicles still have this functionality, but anything higher grade should NOT self-destruct.


"All this talk about how it should take teamwork to use a tank yet atm it takes no teamwork to take out a tank with AV since AV got buff after buff and vehicles got nerf after nerf so you can solo vehicles with ease"

While we disagree about the amount of teamwork it takes to destroy a tank, AV have received little to no changes in a long time. The Swarm Launcher is the only thing that has received significant changes over the past few builds, with it's mechanics changing greatly trying to balance it between its ability to hit tanks and dropships. Personally, I think the Swarm should be removed in favor of the Plasma Cannon and create a "Stinger" AV weapon that can properly balanced against aerial vehicles.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Forge Gun has NOT been touched since the World of Tanks Build a while back, where it received a huge nerf to its range (Going from Infinite to <200), which proved it to be utterly useless as an AV weapon and was buffed to back to have its current range. Outside of that, I am almost certain that the Forge Gun has received no changes since then.

I love tank drivers complaining about AV. You are just bad at the game if you lose 1on1 to AV. All these complaints about packed AV.

WHY ARE YOU LETTING ME GET NEXT TO YOU WITH PACKED AV!?

Have some situational awareness. Use the tools given to you. You have scanners. Maybe you need to sacrifice some DPS or armor to equip one, but it will let you know when pesky AV is getting near you.

Tank drivers just want to be able to park and be invincible.

A tank that is bad, and just sits in one spot can be snuck up on and killed by 1 talented AV player.

A tank that is decent, but still just sits in one spot will kill 1 talented AV player, but will lose to a coordinated attack.

A tank that is good and actually moves is very difficult to kill even with a coordinated effort. Ranged AV dont do enough DPS to take them out before they get behind cover, and closer AV is hard to get in range for since they move a lot.

A tank that is good and has squad support is REALLY REALLY hard to kill even with a dedicated squad. AV weapons leave you exposed to sniper fire and AR/Lazer file. A shotgun scout near the tank will destroy any packed AV users who try to get close to throw it.

The problem with tank balance is that tankers lone wolf it and then complain AV is too strong. But then with even minimal squad support, AV is too weak. Being able to disable the tank from retreating would help a long way to balance this. AV doesnt need a buff. Hell, you can nerf close range AV but give ability to stop tanks from retreating and wed be fine.

TLDR: Long range AV is **** right now, close AV is OP, but with a good squad supporting a tank close AV has a hard time getting anything done. Thus, lone wolf tanks get destroyed by close AV, but squad supported tanks feel OP.

Have you even been in the drivers seat of a tank? You have no idea what you are talking about.

Nerfing tanks to oblivion will not make them mire tactical. It'll just make them useless.

Do not make a driver position. I routinely destroy tanks when their pilot makes a mistake and clips an object of some sort.

Don't listen to dark cloud though, he is just a whiner for the other side of the coin. Look at him complain about someone spending 2 million SP into an AV weapon and doing well with it.

here we go with the whining. no nerfs were mentioned, not a single one. only separating the driver and main gun. if the tank is useless its only because the operator is.

I love tank drivers complaining about AV. You are just bad at the game if you lose 1on1 to AV. All these complaints about packed AV.

WHY ARE YOU LETTING ME GET NEXT TO YOU WITH PACKED AV!?

Have some situational awareness. Use the tools given to you. You have scanners. Maybe you need to sacrifice some DPS or armor to equip one, but it will let you know when pesky AV is getting near you.

Tank drivers just want to be able to park and be invincible.

A tank that is bad, and just sits in one spot can be snuck up on and killed by 1 talented AV player.

A tank that is decent, but still just sits in one spot will kill 1 talented AV player, but will lose to a coordinated attack.

A tank that is good and actually moves is very difficult to kill even with a coordinated effort. Ranged AV dont do enough DPS to take them out before they get behind cover, and closer AV is hard to get in range for since they move a lot.

A tank that is good and has squad support is REALLY REALLY hard to kill even with a dedicated squad. AV weapons leave you exposed to sniper fire and AR/Lazer file. A shotgun scout near the tank will destroy any packed AV users who try to get close to throw it.

The problem with tank balance is that tankers lone wolf it and then complain AV is too strong. But then with even minimal squad support, AV is too weak. Being able to disable the tank from retreating would help a long way to balance this. AV doesnt need a buff. Hell, you can nerf close range AV but give ability to stop tanks from retreating and wed be fine.

TLDR: Long range AV is **** right now, close AV is OP, but with a good squad supporting a tank close AV has a hard time getting anything done. Thus, lone wolf tanks get destroyed by close AV, but squad supported tanks feel OP.

+1 great suggestion. Especially the limited ammo.

Interesting to see all the tears about this. Shows who has the tanks so THEY can dominate versus the tank itself dominating.The funniest part? Their problem isnt because the tank wouldn't get kills...

But because THEY wouldn't.

This suggestion exposes the "me first" nature of most shooters. Shows the difference between dropship pilots and tanks as well.

Yall are only mad at about 5% of the tanker population. Let's face it: most tanks are poorly piloted and die quickly. Even if drivers and gunners were seperate, certain tank crews would be even more unstoppable. Some guys can navigate a tank through urban mine infested terrain at top speed. Others can railgun snipe 8 guys in 8 seconds at point blank. Others provide situational awareness that enables a sica to solo a surya. If these roles were seperated, tank crews would become nothing short of legendary. Seperate roles if u want, but know that you are only spelling out your own doom bc the tankers make the tank, not the other way around.

Who has the turret skills? does the driver need them so he can fit it? what about who buys the turret? does the driver and gunner need the same skills at the same lvl? plus we dont have a locking mechanism so johnny bluedot can jump in and like a ****** spam the turret at the MCC for the next 30min

It wont work, currently the driver of the tank has to dump all his SP into it so it can basically survive to begin with, the gunner put nothing towards the vehicle at all and plus we as vehicle drivers cannot control who gets in the tank to begin with

Everyone cries about wanting it to take teamwork to use a tank but what using teamwork to destroy a tank when it currently takes 1 AV guy to put the fear of god into him let alone whack him since hes a moving WP pinata, oh no cant say that ppl like to destroy tanks solo with as little SP put into AV as possible

Such a poorly written article coming from someone who has never used a HAV

Should be like dropships? what useless and free WP for anyone who looks at it funny? dropships dont take teamwork and the gunners are useless because the turrets are useless and to kill ppl you gotta be low and nice and still so that FG can swat you out of the sky

1. Tank Drivers have access to no weaponry. While the tank driver should be able to switch to a 'gun seat' the vehicle should lose its movement abilities when they do. Each weapon on a tank should require a separate operator. - So then what happens to the skills? i need to lvl up skills in turrets to put them on, do i still have to lvl up the skills so someone else can use it? if so why im the driver not the gunner? also if you want a 4man tank, 3 gunners and 1 driver then lets see a big increase in HAV resistances and hp since that solo AV guy can still keep you away or destroy you altogther

2. A disabled mechanic where critically injured tanks can no longer move. Its odd to see tanks within an inch of destruction speeding along like they are brand new. - So that means each part of the tank needs a set amount of hp for itself so that you know how close you are to taking out the treads, yet again another buff to HAV hp please but also then each area would need its own lock box for hitting each area

3. Tanks like all vehicle assets should have locks that the operator can control preventing anyone from entering the driver seat or the vehicle at all. - yes it is needed

4. It would be nice to see RDVs have the ability to recover assets from the battlefield that the operators no longer require use of. - Problem is RDV are stupid and most likely will kill your vehicle or i in the tank will kill it


All this talk about how it should take teamwork to use a tank yet atm it takes no teamwork to take out a tank with AV since AV got buff after buff and vehicles got nerf after nerf so you can solo vehicles with ease

I can't believe I'm replying to this and resurrecting it, but:

Lone tanking is very risky, and while you can pull it off some of the time, you will lose many vehicles.

Solo AV'ing is risky, and while you'll pull off kills some of the time, you'll lose many vehicles that get away.F

Teamwork buffs both sides. Feature working as intendedGäó

Wrong on so many levels

I dont mind if im just a driver, i did it in MAG quite a bit regulary getting over 100 assists as the guy in a main gun got over 100kills and kept the APC safe from AV

My problem is that its too complicated right now to split driver and gunner apart for the main cannon along with other problems

Who has the turret skills? does the driver need them so he can fit it? what about who buys the turret? does the driver and gunner need the same skills at the same lvl? plus we dont have a locking mechanism so johnny bluedot can jump in and like a ****** spam the turret at the MCC for the next 30min

It wont work, currently the driver of the tank has to dump all his SP into it so it can basically survive to begin with, the gunner put nothing towards the vehicle at all and plus we as vehicle drivers cannot control who gets in the tank to begin with

Everything is on the driver to keep the tank alive while he takes care of threats to the team and the tank

Everyone cries about wanting it to take teamwork to use a tank but what using teamwork to destroy a tank when it currently takes 1 AV guy to put the fear of god into him let alone whack him since hes a moving WP pinata, oh no cant say that ppl like to destroy tanks solo with as little SP put into AV as possible

Why da fuq is the driver even exposed?

I think I've only seen your LAV at long range while I have a Swarm Launcher.

Always ruining my fun man all I wanted was some strawberry jam

'Its obvious to anyone who plays Dust 514 that its a shooter cut from a different mold than any you often see in the genre. Take snipers for instance, historically a one shot kill weapon in most games, in Dust, snipers are more of a 'wounding' weapon until leveled up considerably. Even then, the mechanics like scope sway and small clip size punish poor marksmen who seek out the sniper role as a means of getting easy kills with little risk. Racking up cheap kills just isnt going to happen.

For this reason, the tank is puzzling. The Dust 514 HAV is easily the most dominant vehicle we have seen in the FPS landscape, it crushes new players and non-AV savvy veterans alike. AV fits almost have to be dedicated to their destruction or they can control an entire battlefield. Some of the fault lies on past shooters where players were trained that a specific amount of RPGs or mines would destroy or cripple a tank. This is anything but true in Dust where every tank experience is unique and each must first be identified, sized up and then focused on. We are curious why the decision was made to require team coordination to destroy a tank, but not to operate one.'

read the rest here: http://tinyurl.com/d39jkey

require team coordination to destroy a tank

Are you ****** kidding me?! Two guys with proto swarms can eat Surya with best tank in game without problems. Best plate, 3x hardeners 25% and best ARU not gone safe your tank, so wtf are you telling? Another bullsh!tblog, just die already

Sure OK.

Next; AV should require teamwork.

Your post was fine until this appeared, And the exageration was just too strong.

Im running advanced swarms (Level 3 Swarm Launcher Skill) and to take a Gunlogi your going to need more than one (Madrugars i can solo). Or a lucky position were you can get above the tank an rain Packed AV nades on it. Both situations in Ambush maps arent very frequent.

If you play Skirmish 24/7 then ofcoarse your going to get the tank if its not well equiped or does something stupid, in ambush with the bad spawns its one sided.

Dropship is to LAV.......... This Post is irrelevant. Wait 'till Gunships, Jets & Mechs hit & you will realize how utterly ignorant you sound today.

I can't believe I'm replying to this and resurrecting it, but:

Lone tanking is very risky, and while you can pull it off some of the time, you will lose many vehicles.

Solo AV'ing is risky, and while you'll pull off kills some of the time, you'll lose many vehicles that get away.F

Teamwork buffs both sides. Feature working as intendedGäó

Already implemented.

Next: Posting should require thinking.

What people dont get is that the turret on dropships are inaccurate cause the driver/gunner position is seperated and causes some serious accuracy problems. on tanks however the turret allways hits regardless if moving or not. And dont forget that small blasters do have splash damage. Just wait till i rain death from above. Well having to decide if you go full on infantry or full on vehicles has some advantages. Like beeing aible to ditch all infantry related skills and put them into other vehicles.

Already implemented.

Next: Posting should require thinking.

Either you're upset at the moment, and expressing your feelings without thinking them through, or you're just terrible at driving a tank. There is literally no other way you would actually believe what you just said. Maybe you should try a different specialization. Try playing AV for some perspective.

Fun fact, it takes more SP to get to logistics LAV than it does to the current highest tier tanks.

Its funny that you never see LAV or dropship users complaining. Why is that? They take just as much SP and ISK to use as tanks, and are pretty much just support units. They can die super easy (neither have the PGU to use heavy shield or armor and dropships are much easier to get LOS on).

Why do tanks complain that their killing machines are quite as effecient bang for buck as it could be, but LAV and Dropship users dont mind spending just as much SP and ISK to simply be a support role and have fun?

What tankers need to realize is you arent going to get a 1:1 ratio in SP/ISK investment to game impact. The reason being, that system would make it impossible for new players to compete.

A proto suit worth 10X as much as my starter gear is still easy for me to kill if I get the drop. So despite the fact that a smart tanker who is constantly mobile is pretty much immortal in the current game, tankers still complain that a 70K unit can kill their 500k? Well duh. Someones 200K proto suit easily dies by my free starter gear if I play right. Plus, the tank usually at least has enough time to react, headshots from my scrambler pistol will kill most proto suits before they can even do ANYTHING AT ALL.

This game is not meant for you to be able to BUY your way to victory. You buy an advantage, which tanks OBVIOUSLY have.

Know what would be fair? if it required similar SP or ISK investment in AV to take down a tank. If I've got 4m sp into tanks it should take that much in AV to kill me. Thats like what, 4 Proto AV?

A lot of gou guys are talking theoretics. Sure, on paper it taakes 4-5 shots forge shots.....or, maybe 6 proto grenades, or 4-5 flux grenades, etc to destroy a tank. But it is easier said than done.

A good tanker isn't going to sit there and allow you to hit him. They drive around....they use cover. Ok, as a forge gunner, you have to find a good elevated spot or runn close to the tank. With grenades...you have to get close enough to the tank and hope the tank doesn't kill you. For swarm launchers and forges, you are vulnerable to infantry. It is not easy., in the slightest, to kill a good tank with a good tank driver. You may die 3 or 4 times in the process. In order for that tank to go boom really fast....you need teamwork.

And that is my point....I don't want the powers at be to read posts like these and be misinformed.

Forge Gun Operations 5 621,840 SP
Forge Gun Proficiency 5 1,554,600
Heavy weapon upgrade 5 932,000 SP
Heavy weapons upgrade Prof 5 1,865,520
Grenadier level 4 621,840 SP

That is 4.6 mill without a suit, armor, armor repairers and any other modules you choose to fit.

So when you consider that i have less health, less mobility, can be attacked by small arms fire, can be run over by LAVs, etc. How exactly is it unfair for me to work over a standard tank?

Tankers need to accept the fact that they are not the only specialists in Dust. Some people have specced right into AV with the sole intention of ripping vehicles apart.

I would LOVE if it took that much SP to counter me. as it stands, it only takes the 621k to FGO to 5 to get advanced level AV which is all that's required.

EDIT:
Weaponry (1x) Level 5
Forge Gun Operation (2x) Level 2

That's all it takes to get Assault Forge Guns. Just Sayin.

If one guy with a standard assault forge can kill you, you are not a tanker, and should go infantry on the respec.

Just because you have wasted SP on tanks skills doesn't mean that you know what you are doing.

Which if you are getting popped by solo forge gunners who haven't spent a boatload of SP is exactly what is the case.

Learn to tank before you complain about AV.

LOL! Agree with YDubbs and General here. The engagement is weighted considerably to the tanks advantage (as it should be) i've willingly died countless times to add to the damage on a tank--most have. Most AV specialists will die multiple times in the pursuit of a tank kill. Tell me more about this fantasy world where the mere sight of the slowest soldier on the battlefield causes tanks to run in fear...

Complaining about one fat suit with a tier 2 assault forge?

MY GOD. Please make yourself useful, pick up a sniper rifle and find the nearest red line.

Mathmatically, I dont remotely understand how the jump from standard to advanced forge could be that different. Its like a few 100 HP. Against a unit that has what, 8K? EDIT: I mean, i get the difference between standard versus assault, assault clealry does a signifigant amount of DPS more than standard. But how much more per shot does a higher teir assault do?