DUST Search - New Blog: Should Tanks require more Teamwork?

Bones McGavins wrote:

I love tank drivers complaining about AV. You are just bad at the game if you lose 1on1 to AV. All these complaints about packed AV.

WHY ARE YOU LETTING ME GET NEXT TO YOU WITH PACKED AV!?

Have some situational awareness. Use the tools given to you. You have scanners. Maybe you need to sacrifice some DPS or armor to equip one, but it will let you know when pesky AV is getting near you.

Tank drivers just want to be able to park and be invincible.

A tank that is bad, and just sits in one spot can be snuck up on and killed by 1 talented AV player.

A tank that is decent, but still just sits in one spot will kill 1 talented AV player, but will lose to a coordinated attack.

A tank that is good and actually moves is very difficult to kill even with a coordinated effort. Ranged AV dont do enough DPS to take them out before they get behind cover, and closer AV is hard to get in range for since they move a lot.

A tank that is good and has squad support is REALLY REALLY hard to kill even with a dedicated squad. AV weapons leave you exposed to sniper fire and AR/Lazer file. A shotgun scout near the tank will destroy any packed AV users who try to get close to throw it.

The problem with tank balance is that tankers lone wolf it and then complain AV is too strong. But then with even minimal squad support, AV is too weak. Being able to disable the tank from retreating would help a long way to balance this. AV doesnt need a buff. Hell, you can nerf close range AV but give ability to stop tanks from retreating and wed be fine.

TLDR: Long range AV is **** right now, close AV is OP, but with a good squad supporting a tank close AV has a hard time getting anything done. Thus, lone wolf tanks get destroyed by close AV, but squad supported tanks feel OP.


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Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative 148	Posted - 2013.04.16 18:35:00 - [1] - Quote My personal feeling: 1. Tanks should receive a teamwork buff. The unfortunate reality is that they need to be balanced as if only one person is inside, because they can be operated effectively with only one person. If three people are inside, it's substantially underpowered. The solution is for the HAV (or dropship, or LAV) to scale its effectiveness based on the entire crew (meaning pilots and turret ops, not including passengers). Currently the scaling is based solely on the ability to use more turrets. With some turret op support skills, and maybe even a turret operator dropsuit, you could increase resistances, add functionality, and/or increase the effectiveness of the turrets. 2. Some of the SP burden should be shifted off the tank driver and onto the turret ops. You'll still need some skill to fit turrets, but as it stands it doesn't matter whether you have a complete newbie in the turret or a vet with millions of SP in terms of the raw effectiveness of the turret. I think it should require skill to even operate a turret, but that may be extreme. But you should definitely have the operator--not the driver--skilling into the vehicle equivalents of weapon proficiency, sharpshooter, rapid reload, etc. Just throwing some ideas out there. Bones McGavins wrote: I love tank drivers complaining about AV. You are just bad at the game if you lose 1on1 to AV. All these complaints about packed AV. WHY ARE YOU LETTING ME GET NEXT TO YOU WITH PACKED AV!? Have some situational awareness. Use the tools given to you. You have scanners. Maybe you need to sacrifice some DPS or armor to equip one, but it will let you know when pesky AV is getting near you. Tank drivers just want to be able to park and be invincible. A tank that is bad, and just sits in one spot can be snuck up on and killed by 1 talented AV player. A tank that is decent, but still just sits in one spot will kill 1 talented AV player, but will lose to a coordinated attack. A tank that is good and actually moves is very difficult to kill even with a coordinated effort. Ranged AV dont do enough DPS to take them out before they get behind cover, and closer AV is hard to get in range for since they move a lot. A tank that is good and has squad support is REALLY REALLY hard to kill even with a dedicated squad. AV weapons leave you exposed to sniper fire and AR/Lazer file. A shotgun scout near the tank will destroy any packed AV users who try to get close to throw it. The problem with tank balance is that tankers lone wolf it and then complain AV is too strong. But then with even minimal squad support, AV is too weak. Being able to disable the tank from retreating would help a long way to balance this. AV doesnt need a buff. Hell, you can nerf close range AV but give ability to stop tanks from retreating and wed be fine. TLDR: Long range AV is **** right now, close AV is OP, but with a good squad supporting a tank close AV has a hard time getting anything done. Thus, lone wolf tanks get destroyed by close AV, but squad supported tanks feel OP. QFT. People talk about "AV" as though all AV is created equal. Currently, it seems to me that unspecialized AV (grenades) is more effective than specialized AV (swarms and forge guns). That throws the balance way off.
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative 148	Posted - 2013.04.16 19:04:00 - [2] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Who has the turret skills? does the driver need them so he can fit it? what about who buys the turret? does the driver and gunner need the same skills at the same lvl? plus we dont have a locking mechanism so johnny bluedot can jump in and like a **** spam the turret at the MCC for the next 30min It wont work, currently the driver of the tank has to dump all his SP into it so it can basically survive to begin with, the gunner put nothing towards the vehicle at all and plus we as vehicle drivers cannot control who gets in the tank to begin with If you can actually separate the driver from the turret gunner, then what you're asking is the easy part. We're going to get a locking mechanism. One could relatively easily create a mechanism to kick people out of a seat. It's not something that currently exists, but neither is the separation of gunner and driver we're discussing. All of these mechanisms can be implemented simultaneously. As for skills, I don't see a problem with shifting some of the skill dependency onto the turret operator, so the person who fits it needs certain skills to fit it at all, but the effectiveness will also be very dependent on the person operating it. This requires some rework of the skill system, but it can be done in a very fair and meaningful fashion. Takahiro Kashuken wrote:** Everyone cries about wanting it to take teamwork to use a tank but what using teamwork to destroy a tank when it currently takes 1 AV guy to put the fear of god into him let alone whack him since hes a moving WP pinata, oh no cant say that ppl like to destroy tanks solo with as little SP put into AV as possible Either you're upset at the moment, and expressing your feelings without thinking them through, or you're just terrible at driving a tank. There is literally no other way you would actually believe what you just said. Maybe you should try a different specialization. Try playing AV for some perspective.
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative 148	Posted - 2013.04.16 19:17:00 - [3] - Quote rebecca watson wrote: I can't believe I'm replying to this and resurrecting it, but: Lone tanking is very risky, and while you can pull it off some of the time, you will lose many vehicles. Solo AV'ing is risky, and while you'll pull off kills some of the time, you'll lose many vehicles that get away.F Teamwork buffs both sides. Feature working as intendedGäó My problem is that the effectiveness of the tank doesn't scale to the number of people inside. Some tanks are just a little too tough for only one person to be operating them (SOME tanks, not all, and I think this is just because people have figured out how to fit them really, really well), but none of the tanks that I've seen get substantially improved performance from having additional gunners. Consequently, I don't see this as a "nerf tanks" idea, I see it as a "buff teamwork" idea. Tanks are fine as they are for solo players, because everyone has been driving them solo and so that's how they've been balanced. Not to mention you can't specialize into turret operation--all you can do is jump in, at which point neither your SP skills nor your equipment matter. I don't know, maybe this is only my impression because I feel like an add-on when I'm operating a tank turret, like I'm just along for the ride. Could be that drivers more experienced with teamwork can utilize the turret ops with increased effectiveness.
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative 148	Posted - 2013.04.16 22:04:00 - [4] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: Sure OK. Next; AV should require teamwork. Already implemented. Next: Posting should require thinking.