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Django Quik
R.I.f.t
220
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 02:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
Why are you so fixated on this being a bog standard mulitplayer FPS? Isn't it abundantly clear that CCP are creating a game that really crosses over multiple genres (FPS, RPG and MMO, maybe even RTS when the whole commander deploy stuff comes in too). This is a new thing being made here, like nothing that's ever been made before, so stop trying to shoehorn it into what already exists and realise that CCP is completely out of the box on everything it's doing. |
Heinz Doofenshertz
BetaMax.
360
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 05:36:00 -
[32] - Quote
Crm234 you do realize This is Dust514, it will operate on Tranquility in full integration with EVE online, full text and voice chat across both games, same market, namespace and corp/alliance structures. This is New Eden, This is EVE, This is Dust514, all the same thing man.
SP doesn't dictate anything but how long you've been playing either passively or actively. Considering the fact that a dude in militia gear can kill you even when your running full proto.
Yes I'm gonna reference EVE here, see first part of my post as why, No PVE will never provide the unlimited variations that a Good PVP match will. However, given the level of AI programing in EVE, I doubt PVE will be an easy thing you will be outnumbered, you will be dealing with things that are hard to kill, and you will probably have a limited number of clones.
I do have to disagree on a fundamental point in your arguement, Fighting, even an AI, can improve your ability to fight a human. Because you are Fighting. Arguing against that is like saying shooting free throws by yourself in a park won't improve your ability to make shots in a pickup game. Sure your skills don't advance as fast as if you did nothing but playing against the best friends you have, but it will still improve your game. |
Crm234
Wraith Shadow Guards
166
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 06:40:00 -
[33] - Quote
I had to delete my post because i felt it was to brutal honest and would only hurt me .I do fear the Devs notice of opposition to Dust and also I have no clue how to completely remove the post so just edited it , You can only bend a metal so much before there is no turning back and i rather not do that today. |
NovaShadowStorm
The Southern Legion
63
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 07:51:00 -
[34] - Quote
I believe that people should be given a right to do whatever the hell they want, Dust 514 takes place in the EVE universe, we are mercs we fight to get paid.
If we're hired by a corp that wants that land we take it, even if we have to fight others to do so, if another wants it's backyard cleared of rogue drones who have settled in and are killing their workers and overrunning their facilities we do that too. The EVE universe is about choice, we choose what we want to do and giving people more options and more play styles is never a bad thing.
You don't want PvE then stay away from it, you don't like PvP then stay out of it simple enough, I believe everyone should be able to play and enjoy themselves not rage because in PvP they keep dying to more experienced players or get bored of PvE content. You play your way they play theirs, thats how I see it. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 14:17:00 -
[35] - Quote
Octavian Vetiver wrote:People are capable of thinking on the fly and coming up with ideas...aka problem solving. Computers are not actually capable of that yet. And we're not quite close enough to the point were we have Minds like from an Iain M. Banks book or I, Robot or anything approaching that. It's funny that people still believe that.
In 1997, a game was released called Galapagos: Mendel's Escape.
It had an AI-controlled main character who was capable of dynamically learning from the environment and from interactions with the player. Just because software developers DON'T make programs that are capable of dynamic adaptive behaviour, doesn't mean it isn't possible. |
Crm234
Wraith Shadow Guards
166
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 15:16:00 -
[36] - Quote
It is still very alarming to me how many people are so upset if they don't get sp from co op. as well as how many people in a mmofps according to ccp don't want a mmofps or fight against players. It really feels like its the blind leading the blind. In this development. Is there any balance to a proper testing player base. Not even the Star Wars empire cod allows you to skill up in co op and use those weapons in pvp . |
Vermaak Kuvakei
Doomheim
88
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 15:27:00 -
[37] - Quote
Just because no other game has done it doesn't make it bad, and you still haven't came up with a good argument against it |
Crm234
Wraith Shadow Guards
166
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 15:41:00 -
[38] - Quote
To only you maybe , but I have made very clear arguements that have been supported by others. I'm never going to convince you because i bet you don't like competitive fps games obviously and don't care if it screws it up either . Just because you can doesn't mean you should. A piercing is cool and unique but 30 piercings is seen as bad. |
Vermaak Kuvakei
Doomheim
88
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 15:59:00 -
[39] - Quote
So you're saying I don't like competitive fpses even though I'm in a pvp only beta? Then you're probably an idiot or a troll. I know for a fact that bf3 had a similar system with it's online and i know it didn't screw with the main multiplayer |
Crm234
Wraith Shadow Guards
166
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 16:18:00 -
[40] - Quote
Smaller system? I didn't buy bf3 because of the beta . No that is not why and you know it. Your just trying to goat me into swearing at you and I'm not. Sp in co op will hugely effect pvp that your staying who cares about .its different to and I want it because I don't like shooters statement. If your such a fan of pvp then it doesn't matter your only getting isk from co op because its a side mission from the main part of dust. |
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Vermaak Kuvakei
Doomheim
88
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 16:26:00 -
[41] - Quote
Exactly why wouldn't sp be awarded for fighting bots? How exactly will it break the game? If I'm taking my time, risking my clones, AND I'll be outnumbered I know I deserve that sp, at this point you're whining like a stubborn toddler trying to avoid saying bad words. And it functioned by giving huge short cuts to some of the best weapons in the game (in my opinion) |
Crm234
Wraith Shadow Guards
166
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 16:49:00 -
[42] - Quote
I have explained why in previous posts and you have just blur through them and focused on this person obviously must be a troll because he disagrees with something in dusts planning defensive attitude. Even though he has stayed on topic, given reasoning that has been supported by others, and used a reference of a very successful game as well as post a rebuttal question have you seen it done in another game no. It really comes down to FPS players dont feel that co op is a proper grind of progression and maybe you haven't but I have heard tons of conversations through the years that go like this. Im great at insert FPS i beat it on ultra hard and take out 20 bots at one time and the reply to that is always who cares get back to me when you can do it against other players online. Im not going to post anymore over this and if co op is the main focus im sure a lot of people aren't going to continue in dust. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 16:56:00 -
[43] - Quote
Crm234 wrote:Smaller system? I didn't buy bf3 because of the beta . No that is not why and you know it. Your just trying to goat me into swearing at you and I'm not. Sp in co op will hugely effect pvp that your staying who cares about .its different to and I want it because I don't like shooters statement. If your such a fan of pvp then it doesn't matter your only getting isk from co op because its a side mission from the main part of dust. I suppose they need to remove passive SP as well, since someone can just create an account, activate passive SP, then come back 6 months later and have access to Advanced and Prototype gear and THAT'S NOT FAIR ON THE PEOPLE WHO USE PVP TO GRIND THEIR SP INSTEAD.
Right?
If so, I'm sorry, but you're wrong. And if not, then you're a hypocrite.
PvE is a core element of the game, and will be the primary focus for many players.
PvP is also a core element, but it's not the ONLY core element. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 16:58:00 -
[44] - Quote
Crm234 wrote:have you seen it done in another game no. I have.
Just saying.
Wasn't game-breaking there either. |
Octavian Vetiver
Dog Nation United Relativity Alliance
152
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 17:04:00 -
[45] - Quote
Crm234 wrote:Please do not use a different genre to counter my point , since you went right for Eve a MMORPG the answer is no you do not know any FPS that uses Pve and is considered competitive. If this was a RPG beta then your argument would be sound and i say your right no ifs or buts about it.
Also I don't hate Pve , I just don't think you should earn SP from it . Play it all day and enjoy it with friends all day but SP should only be earned during matches with out players only to tell players yes dust can compete as a competitive shooter and not just a major Co op game.
Firefall. There are people that only do the PvE stuff. And there are ones that only PvP. The people that do mostly just PvE tend to get their rear ends handed to them in PVP. Even though the AI for some of the npc's in the beta are very bright. It still does not train a player enough for the player vs. player aspects. And also for the above poster from second page. That was a single player game. Trying to make a system run it for an online game would be difficult due to not all npc's being on the same side. Plus not all npc's being humanoids or machines. Animals for instance. Though I do give Red 5 props on their Chosen AI. They fight about like sleepers. But, mostly because those ones aimbot. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
220
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 17:37:00 -
[46] - Quote
I've been avoiding referencing it becuase I've never actually played but I know a bit about it so anyway - WOW has PVE available on it's PVP servers and it doesn't break anything. Now I realise that WOW is a proper MMORPG but I really don't see why the same mechanics can not be applied to an FPS - just because it's not been done before, doesn't mean it won't work. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 17:44:00 -
[47] - Quote
Octavian Vetiver wrote:And also for the above poster from second page. That was a single player game. Trying to make a system run it for an online game would be difficult due to not all npc's being on the same side. They made it work in single player in 1997. Would it be easy to make an adaptive AI that operates effectively online? No. It wasn't easy, and probably still isn't, to make dynamic AI that works in a single-system environment. That's not the point. The point is that 15 years ago, computers were capable of learning and responding dynamically instead of relying purely on scripted reactive behaviour. Adaptive AI has been around that long, and I'm actually surprised nobody's done much with the concept since then. |
Vermaak Kuvakei
Doomheim
88
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 18:18:00 -
[48] - Quote
It's not fps players in general, it's only you and a small minority that's still whining about pve |
1CLIP 1KILL
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
87
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 18:43:00 -
[49] - Quote
I was going to let this thread die, but it just won't stay down!
I've read everyone's comments, and thought about it more. After changing my mind a little bit, here is my revised argument.
From my subjective view about the current player base, it seems like if PvE is fun and gives enough SP/ISK/Rewards that people will do it, almost no one will PvP. If they do PvP, it'll be like EVE. I've heard stories that people wait for an hour+ in one place or moving around for sixty seconds of battle, but even in the most intensive battles it's nothing like playing an FPS game for 10 hours. I enjoy ten seconds of downtime (respawn) for ten minutes of battle, and not the other way around. (Note: if you CS you're probably fine with longer downtime, but the downtime is your fault, it's not forced upon you.)
Also, part of this game (at least for me) is the whole mercs on mercs concept, and the fact that other mercs are the ones who take away your hard earned gear and ISK, and that by earning your gear and ISK you are reducing what another player might earn. Giving players an alternative way to get around the whole mercs vs mercs concept is disappointing. I don't doubt that PvE will be fun, challenging, and rewarding for those who partake in it, but it takes some of the pleasure of denying an opponent of an objective/kill/WP because that player can just slink away to PvE.
This is a difference in opinion and a personal preference. It's great that people enjoy a variety of things in a game. I am skeptical that there will be a game that "everyone" wants to play. Some people will enjoy a game, and others will not. The devs will make a game that people like. If "everyone" likes PvE and not PvP, they'll focus on PvE. "Everyone" hasn't posted on forums. I am not representing others in my posts, just myself, and most of the posters on forums do not represent me. Some changes that I am unhappy about are missiles that can't fire in a straight line and slow strafe speeds. If I had been around and on forums to express my displeasure at such planned changes, perhaps they might be a little better, but at least I'd have given my feedback.
Here's another example: Camping from the red line. It's not a problem for everyone, and not everyone hates it. The evidence for this is clear, because many people do it. I see it this way. The devs have a choice. They can leave both groups as is, making the red-line campers happy and some other players unhappy; they can do away with camping from the red-line making the red-line players unhappy and some other players happy, or they can try to find a solution that both groups like, dislike, or are neutral. To me it seems likely that any change the devs make to red-line camping (or no change at all) will leave a group of players dissatisfied. Personally, I'm fine with people sniping from the red-line. I'd prefer if changes were made to the terrain/bullets and shots not disappearing so it's easier to hit them, and I'd love it if corps could queue into public games with multiple squads, or with larger squads. That allows red-line campers to have their fun, and I can have my fun capturing all objectives while the are watching movies while playing one-handed.
I started this thread knowing full well that the majority of players on beta forums would disagree with me. That's fine. I don't know how many other gamers share views similar to mine, but my hope is that there are enough that the devs will want to find a solution that makes me happy and the majority of beta players on forums happy too. I have no ideas as to how the devs can satisfy both groups of players, because all of my ideas satisfy me :p.
As some other posters have noted, this thread is a, "give me, me, me what I want" thread. Of course it is, how many people post feedback for changes and things they do not want? That being said, I would not normally make a thread asking the devs to take something away from other players that the players clearly desire, but from the limited information I've heard, the implementation of PvE will essentially ruin PvP for me. Online games aren't fun if almost no one plays them. I'm sticking around (and I'll try the game on release) because the devs have been creative in the past, so hopefully they will figure out a way to put PvE in a game that I would like to play.
I also understand that I might not be in the target market. I'd love to believe that the devs dedicate their entire lives catering to my desires, but I know that most of the content has already been carefully thought of, researched, and planned. I can't tell the devs what to do, but I can give my feedback on what they have already done and/or have told us they plan on doing. I hope the devs do what I like, but if they don't, that's fine with me. I can only control what I do.
To end, lyrics from one of my favorite songs:
I never walk the street thinking it's all about me Even though deep in my heart, it really could be.
A Tribe Called Quest, Buggin' Out |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 19:32:00 -
[50] - Quote
1CLIP 1KILL wrote:Of course it is, how many people post feedback for changes and things they do not want? I post feedback that favours an improvement to BALANCE, not feedback that favours my playstyle and makes it stronger, even though I'd love to have a shotgun that can one-shot even a Heavy suit and deals enough damage to be a legitimate threat to vehicles, and fits on my Scout dropsuit which now also has the ability to shoot and reload while sprinting, a cloaking device and 50% more armour.
There have been changes I've said "this is a great idea" to which make my life more difficult.
The point of feedback isn't to say "me me me" it's to say "this is what I think is BEST FOR THE GAME".
This thread doesn't have any good reason why the complete removal of a planned element to the game is a good idea. It implies that PvE somehow negates the value of PvP, or that somehow a victory is less fun if the other guy is going to ragequit from PvP without having to ragequit from the entire game to do it.
Pro-tip: The only way you could take that second option seriously is if you have severe mental health issues. If that's the case, you should probably seek professional help. |
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1CLIP 1KILL
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
87
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 20:28:00 -
[51] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:1CLIP 1KILL wrote:Of course it is, how many people post feedback for changes and things they do not want? I post feedback that favours an improvement to BALANCE, not feedback that favours my playstyle and makes it stronger.
Maybe because you want balance in the game? Do you make suggestions to make the game imbalanced? Does your style of play not favor a balanced game?
The feedback I gave in the post above is what I think is best for the game. My point is that people have differing views about what is best for the game, and these are mine. I was acknowledging that many people will have views that are different from mine, and that I am not actually "demanding" certain changes from the devs. Other than the paragraph below, I haven't made or endorsed any suggestions because I do not know what every other player will like, or what the devs plan to do.
Someone else suggested that other players might be able to interrupt people PvE-ing. That's fine with me, but I don't consider that to be PvE. It's more PvPvE. The title is provocative so people will post their opinion about PvE. Obviously, PvE will be in the game. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 20:38:00 -
[52] - Quote
1CLIP 1KILL wrote:I don't want "non combat" areas. PvP should be the only focus, or preparing for it. If character customization is ever implemented, players should earn the right to use it through PvP. They shouldn't even get a nice room to start.
Flawed assessment, PvE =/= "non combat". Equally PvE =/= "safe". If someone "feels safe" in a PvE setting they're either actively playing spec'ed to counter what they face in that context and are well practiced, or they're simply deluding themselves.
The former is true of PvP as well. I'm sure there are games where folks like Zitro, Zan, Fivetimes, etc feel safe, and in fact are more or less safe. The better your gear and character skills, and the more efficiently you can use them the safer you become.
One other assessment from the OP that needs revision is the misconception that all development resources are drawn from one pool. Development teams are assigned different areas within which they work and developers are hired/assigned based on the skills required to fulfill their given role within product creation. I like many of the things on the list in the OP, but to assume that working on one aspect of the game directly diminishes focus on another aspect is simply inaccurate.
0.02 ISK Cross |
1CLIP 1KILL
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
87
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 20:48:00 -
[53] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:One other assessment from the OP that needs revision is the misconception that all development resources are drawn from one pool. Development teams are assigned different areas within which they work and developers are hired/assigned based on the skills required to fulfill their given role within product creation. I like many of the things on the list in the OP, but to assume that working on one aspect of the game directly diminishes focus on another aspect is simply inaccurate.
Good point. I believe there is some crossover, but I have no idea to what degree. |
The dark cloud
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
1060
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 20:53:00 -
[54] - Quote
I would be up for it that PVE gets implemented. Just something else to do as beeing on the edge full time. COD has zombies so let this be the Dust514 variant off it. And think about it n00bs will have a way to get a half decent amount of ISK which they will invest into better gear and when they go to normal matches with their better stuff you can still kill them quite easy cause in the end a n00b is just a n00b no matter how big the club is that he swings around. The end result is that the payout at the end of a match is higher which benefits the community. Also people who do PVE and love it the whole day are then ISK vending mechines. So a good corp can recruit a n00b who makes a good amount of ISK to donate it to the corp wallet. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 21:06:00 -
[55] - Quote
1CLIP 1KILL wrote:Cross Atu wrote:One other assessment from the OP that needs revision is the misconception that all development resources are drawn from one pool. Development teams are assigned different areas within which they work and developers are hired/assigned based on the skills required to fulfill their given role within product creation. I like many of the things on the list in the OP, but to assume that working on one aspect of the game directly diminishes focus on another aspect is simply inaccurate. Good point. I believe there is some crossover, but I have no idea to what degree.
True, the sub-teams certainly will interact and thus the projects can draw to a certain degree, however some of the interactions wouldn't be zero sum. For example a revision to weapons balance from the balance team is going to be game wide and most maps will be usable in more than one mode etc.
Again I'd like to reiterate that I too support prioritization of the other things you listed, I just don't think that the development will mutually exclusive.
As to the concept of PvE zones more generally, I think they're useful for High Sec where people start out (good form of pratice and way to build resources while training skills, new players will likely need this). If there is to be PvE outside of High Sec I'm betting it'll be like PvE in EVE, which makes it PvPvE (as you mentioned previously).
Cheers, Cross |
Octavian Vetiver
Dog Nation United Relativity Alliance
152
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 21:13:00 -
[56] - Quote
You have a misunderstanding of PVP on EVE. Yes there is some sitting around and some roaming. It's not a game where you can pvp your way into money really. The waiting around is to give scouts the time to locate the enemy. Planning, deciding how the squads and wings will need formed. EVE PVP is more based around tactical planning prior to the actual fighting. Kind of like real life. You think militaries just randomly slap people into a battlezone and say kill the enemy? Before you even get into doing a combat mission in real life there is a ton of planning and prep-work that may take days, weeks or months. All for what may amount to a period of 10 minutes of fighting to a few hours. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 21:28:00 -
[57] - Quote
1CLIP 1KILL wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:1CLIP 1KILL wrote:Of course it is, how many people post feedback for changes and things they do not want? I post feedback that favours an improvement to BALANCE, not feedback that favours my playstyle and makes it stronger. Maybe because you want balance in the game? Do you make suggestions to make the game imbalanced? Does your style of play not favor a balanced game? My preferred playstyle is focused on close-range weapons, Shotguns and SMGs being the main ones. Giving those weapons a massive buff would suit my playstyle, and so would either a large buff to Assault speed or Scout durability, but I know that, while those would be great for me, personally, they'd break the game for a lot of other players who enjoy the other aspects of the game, so I don't support balance-destroying advantages being given to what I, personally, prefer to do in the game.
I probably won't take too much advantage of the PvE side of the game, because I'm more interested in PvP. I'll play it, and I have a gaming clan who will hopefully provide me with a good supply of teammates on both sides of the fence, but PvP is where I intend to focus more of my playtime. But while I don't much care on a personal level about the PvE aspect, it's an advertised part of the game and it's a draw-point for a large portion of the playerbase, many of whom will ALSO play in the PvP side of the game. Having both doesn't reduce the PvP playerbase, it gives it the potential to expand beyond JUST the usual multiplayer FPS crowd and gain some attention (and possible more players) from the PvE guys.
Quote:The title is provocative so people will post their opinion about PvE. Obviously, PvE will be in the game. And this fits the definition of "trolling" if you look at it the right way. |
1CLIP 1KILL
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
87
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 22:44:00 -
[58] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:And this fits the definition of "trolling" if you look at it the right way.
My apologies if you took it that way. I meant it more to arouse or stimulate thought and discussion. I did not see another thread that articulating my sentiments on the planned content. To avoid seeming contentious, I made an attempt not to specifically discredit or criticize other people's opinions about PvE.
I feel that the title is justifiable because I'm fairly certain that players are able to give their feedback on content that has happened or will happen. I have no delusions that the devs will change what they have already planned because of this thread. This thread is simply how I feel about coming changes. It's my feedback, and although I knew that some players would vehemently disagree with my feedback, I gave it anyways. I have not, and will not, criticize anyone's opinions or suggestions made in this thread with regards to PvE. This is to avoid people from feeling like I am just "trolling" them for a response.
But I do like what Cross Atu and a few others have posted. I wouldn't have a problem if PvE is for noobies, and PvPvE is for everyone else. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 04:02:00 -
[59] - Quote
1CLIP 1KILL wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:And this fits the definition of "trolling" if you look at it the right way. My apologies if you took it that way. I meant it more to arouse or stimulate thought and discussion. I did not see another thread that articulating my sentiments on the planned content. To avoid seeming contentious, I made an attempt not to specifically discredit or criticize other people's opinions about PvE. I feel that the title is justifiable because I'm fairly certain that players are able to give their feedback on content that has happened or will happen. I have no delusions that the devs will change what they have already planned because of this thread. This thread is simply how I feel about coming changes. It's my feedback, and although I knew that some players would vehemently disagree with my feedback, I gave it anyways. I have not, and will not, criticize anyone's opinions or suggestions made in this thread with regards to PvE. This is to avoid people from feeling like I am just "trolling" them for a response. But I do like what Cross Atu and a few others have posted. I wouldn't have a problem if PvE is for noobies, and PvPvE is for everyone else. What's the issue with having different levels of PvE content like in EVE, so you don't have to be shooting other players all the time? The complete lack of anything but shooting other players is one of the things that's making Planetside 2 difficult to play for some people. Combine that with the massive environments and you can be driving around for 15 minutes just to find someone to shoot at, and odds are you'll be killed by a random aircraft before that happens.
We all love shooting other people in the face, but sometimes you want more out of a game, or just a change of pace. PvE content is hardly any threat to the stability of the game, or player-count in PvP engagements. |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
315
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 10:14:00 -
[60] - Quote
We, the undersigned, believe that while PvE will be a necessary element of Dust 514, and that many players may focus primarily or exclusively on that PvE content, CCP should observe two core principles when creating the PvE experience...
First, the implementation of PvE content should not be done at the expense of the development of the PvP game.
Second, it should not be possible for players to use PvE play to gain a significant advantage over players who focus only on PvP. |
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