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Can't argue with numbers - protostomping needs to go

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Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 303	Posted - 2015.10.07 21:46:00 - [1] - Quote Condensed from 2 buried threads, I think this information alone let's us know that something is wrong when a new player vs vet in ofc gear needs to land ~112% more shots to kill the vet. Change matchmaking ASAP. This is a huge aspect of why the game doesn't work in its current form. Please, tryhard protostompers, help me understand why you think this is OK and working as intended? Sorry to steal your info Shaun, I hope you don't mind me reposting it. All credit goes to him, I'm just a copypasta machine. Shaun Iwairo wrote: I think we should also consider the effect skills have on a dropsuit. Basic level player: Armor Plating I Dropsuit Armor Upgrades I +5% base dropsuit armor HP, + 2% armor module HP Combat Rifle Proficiency 0 Augmented Ammo 0 +15% damage vs armor Proto level player: Armor Plating 5 Dropsuit Armor Upgrades 5 +25% base dropsuit armor HP, + 10% armor module HP Combat Rifle Proficiency 5 Augmented Ammo 5 +35% damage vs armor Just with these two players in the exact same same loadout, the vet gets 20% more hp from their suit and 8% more hp from their modules, and does 20% more damage. How many more shots does the newberry have to land on the vet (edit: compared to the vet on the newberry) to take them out? What other FPSs can you think of that give vets such an advantage? "But that's just the way of New Eden" This system works in Eve because you can pick your fights. There is no d-scan to see what's in that plex in Dust. There is no pulling range and warping off in Dust. You fight against who and whatever Scotty tells you to. I realize this won't be a popular opinion but to me it's just crazy for Dust to not have some sort of mode where all stats are equalized. A mode where I don't have to think 'did I just die because I got outplayed or because that guy just has more hp and does more damage than me?' I agree to a point, skills are less detrimental than STD vs PRO. I do believe that passive modifiers are detrimental enough to cause a problem. I've been wanting to work this out for a while, so this is mostly because I'm interested to see the numbers. Using an Assault M1 with 2 x Basic Shield Extenders, 2 x Basic Ferroscales, 2x Basic Light Damage Mods and a Combat Rifle the new player that has just unlocked the gear has: 288 Shield HP 271 Armor HP and does: 24 HP/round damage to Shield 32.8 HP/round damage to Armor Conversely, the vet with V's in the applicable skills and augmented ammo V has: 335.1 Shield HP 314.5 Armor HP and does: 25.2 HP/round damage to shield 39.6 HP/round damage to Armor For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (335.1/24) + (314.5/32.8) =~ 23.5 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/25.2) + (271/39.6) =~ 18.3 rounds Even in the exact same suit, a new player going toe to toe with a vet needs to land about 30% more shots to come out on top. Looks like today is going to be a numbers day for me. Keep in mind that what I outlined almost never happens, that is a vet going into a pub in STD gear. Keeping the new player in STD gear (because let's face it, isk and SP limits are real for them) and; Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at ADV level gives them: 372.5 Shield HP 347.5 Armor HP and they do: 27.3 HP/round to Shield 43.1 HP/round to Armor For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (372.5/24) + (347.5/32.8) =~ 26.1 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/27.3) + (271/43.1) =~ 16.8 rounds A new player going toe to toe with a vet in ADV gear needs to land about 55% more shots to come out on top. Now things get nasty Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at PRO level gives them: 407.7 Shield HP 402.5 Armor HP and they do: 30.45 HP/round to Shield 46.8 HP/round to Armor For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/30.45) + (271/46.8) =~ 15.2 rounds A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear needs to land about 93% more shots to come out on top. I admit this is a rare(ish) case, but if the vet puts on their try hard pants and pulls out an officer weapon: For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/33.6) + (271/51.5) =~ 13.8 rounds A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear with an OFC weapon needs to land about 112% more shots to come out on top.
Ahkhomi Cypher Opus Arcana 1	Posted - 2015.10.07 22:13:00 - [2] - Quote We also have to look at skill level and not just level of gear because some people just suck at the game while others are better. Through all of this meta talk thats one bigass factor that people are leaving out of the equation. Some people suck at the game. Some people are really good at it. In a PC you can kinda expect guys like D4GG3R and Arianna to do well. In a meta locked/tier locked game mode they're still gonna be styling on hoes. TBD ringleader \| Yep Squad Spokesman
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 303	Posted - 2015.10.07 22:18:00 - [3] - Quote That's natural dichotomy. Every game always has that and always will. Some players are inherently better than others. Except we don't balance games around that concept, we try and normalize what the players have access to so that the better players, even when stacked don't near instant kill people. Two players with the same gear, one sucks and one wrecks - the bad player needs to take efforts to improve his game. This is FAIR. Two players in different gear who both wreck, and one loses 9/10 times because of an hp and damage advantage, isn't fair. Can't balance someone's skill, but we can balance the way you gain advantages over other players through equipment.
maybe deadcatz TRUE TEA BAGGERS Smart Deploy 968	Posted - 2015.10.07 22:27:00 - [4] - Quote I kinda run apex or standard suits only in pubs. I have 500 sheild and 194 armour (rasetsu) or 440ish armour and 194sheilds(in my gall assault) I repair and regen sheild really quickly at the cost of super stacked HP. Just apply enough alpha damage before I can react or wear me down from multiple fights. Becuase everyone deserves a fair chance. I avoid reps by logis(they can wp ***** off of someone who is actually trying) I don't always die to milita but when I do its because he saw me near dead after giving someone in proto a whuping with a supposedly "underpowered weapon" (assault rifles best ftw beetches). Only in PC or sometimes fw I will run proto. Maybe one match of pubs in proto but that's when I feel like I have some isk to spare. Ha! You can't kill me! I'm already dead!
jdom503 world wide killaz 11	Posted - 2015.10.07 22:32:00 - [5] - Quote Call me crazy but I enjoy the challenge. I know of alot of friends that I run with that hate proto stompers but if you have a good round and it's against basic, adv, bpos, apex or starter fits it isn't the same feeling to me as having a good one against a team with officer/proto. If people want to loose it in a pub match then awesome. My main rule in Dust is don't run what you don't want to loose. A good note as how to run if you're getting stomped and can't do anything kill wise is to run logi and rep as there's gonna be alot of damaged clones out there.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 303	Posted - 2015.10.07 22:46:00 - [6] - Quote You're right, I too enjoy the challenge. It's extremely satisfying to know they are spending double, triple and beyond to run that kit. I have no issue with proto here and there, it's the consistent stomps that are strangling this game to death (among the laundry list of other things). I was gifted an APEX and standard BPO recently. Prior to that, when I was in standard and adv. I would often go is negative because I refused to leave games, even trying to play logi is impossible in some stomps because you're either all sitting back in the mcc or redline avoiding the 10 to 20 deaths coming your way. I'm all for a challenge, but running by the numbers it's like unmodded civic trying to race a turbo fully nodded civic. **** ain't gonna happen, unless the turbo driver fails at life and can't drive the car. Same with proto, unless you suck at the game you should be able to take anyone with lesser kit. When a newer player has to land 90-112% more shots, that's not a challenge. That's idiocy. And those numbers are not exceptionally rare cases, that's the norm now in games. Pro suits and officer weapons all day.
HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 1	Posted - 2015.10.07 22:50:00 - [7] - Quote To the OP. People wouldn't risk their proto/officer gear even half as much if they aren't squaded up ( other than Thales ect. ) prolly never officer gear solo. One or two people running good gear won't cause a stomp, squading in pubs is much more powerful. Most people will never know the feeling of seeing 12+ people from the same Corp opposing them in pubs... I saw it for years. The playerbase is to small to divide it further. Get rid of fire teams in pubs and people will be forced to play what they can afford. Just because some people want to go full lemming at the objective and don't care about strategy because they only run cheap gear dosnt mean we all want to play that way. This isn't call of duty **** costs isk.
xavier zor XxAMBUSH FTWxX 2	Posted - 2015.10.07 23:02:00 - [8] - Quote Ahkhomi Cypher wrote: We also have to look at skill level and not just level of gear because some people just suck at the game while others are better. Through all of this meta talk thats one bigass factor that people are leaving out of the equation. Some people suck at the game. Some people are really good at it. In a PC you can kinda expect guys like D4GG3R and Arianna to do well. In a meta locked/tier locked game mode they're still gonna be styling on hoes. Ahkhomi Cypher wrote: In a PC you can kinda expect guys like D4GG3R. LOL D4GG3R??? That is fu*king hilarious man. dagger really isn't good at all sLaYeR I'm a knifing pussy ^-^/
Thor Odinson42 Ancient Exiles. Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 7	Posted - 2015.10.07 23:04:00 - [9] - Quote I wish they could somehow easily make meta locks happen. I also wish we could have a weekly update of stats from all the folks clamoring for it. Just so we could point at them and laugh. Seriously, port it. Hurry
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.07 23:14:00 - [10] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: To the OP. People wouldn't risk their proto/officer gear even half as much if they aren't squaded up ( other than Thales ect. ) prolly never officer gear solo. One or two people running good gear won't cause a stomp, squading in pubs is much more powerful. Most people will never know the feeling of seeing 12+ people from the same Corp opposing them in pubs... I saw it for years. The playerbase is to small to divide it further. Get rid of fire teams in pubs and people will be forced to play what they can afford. Just because some people want to go full lemming at the objective and don't care about strategy because they only run cheap gear dosnt mean we all want to play that way. This isn't call of duty ** costs isk. Do you even pub? Go play 10 games. Record how many times you die to proto/ofc players across those matches. I think you'll find its a lot more common than you think. And you're not dividing anything. You're restricting what can be used. At any point they can choose not to use their pro/ofc kits and fight at the top of the pub brackets. Then for higher levels of play like FW and PC, anything goes. I think the only issue would be proto/ofc players who refuse to change how they play, if they queue pubs in that gear, it should fill the game with players of similar meta. If the only detriment is pro/ofc players waiting in longer PUB queues, so be it. It will help so many aspects of the game, I could give a ** about the high end players waiting in pub queues because they refuse to change their kit. No one is forced into anything. Like you want the "lemmings" to git gud, I want the pro/ofc stompers to git real.

Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Imperium Eden 4	Posted - 2015.10.07 23:18:00 - [11] - Quote I agree that this is a problem, a fairly big one earlier in the game's life. I have often wondered why the bonuses are not more flattened. For example, EVE did a massive re-work on their skills. It used to be that X Missile Operation would give you 2% damage per level and X Missile Specialization gave you like 5% more damage per level. Now Operation was an easier skill to level than Specialization, so it was easy to get a small benefit and very hard to get the huge benefit. The change made it to where the easier skill would give you the bigger number and the harder skill the smaller number. They did it with most weapon skills. DUST could certainly do the same thing. Buff Shield, Armor, CPU, and PG on Suits but lower the effectiveness on Engineering, Electronics, and the skills that govern defensive stats. It would mean that the difference between "I have 2 million SP" and "I have 15 million SP unspent because I have everything I want" would be smaller but one would still clearly be better. Engineering would be nerfed to be only 10% PG rather than 25% but every suit would have a PG buff so that Level 5 Engineering would be the same but people with lower skills invested would have a bigger benefit. The change can also be done by front loading skills. The first level would give you 50% of the total bonus and the next 4 levels would fill in the rest. IE, Engineering would give 12.5% more PG at level 1 but levels 2, 3, 4, and 5 would only give 3.125%. Total is still 25%. And if DUST weren't fully dependent on like 2,200ish veterans that continue to play, I think it would be a bigger concern. There are virtually no new players coming into the game. Anyone who is still playing this game at this point is a veteran. The people that are still playing have probably been playing long enough to have amassed enough money to run prototype. It is the same thing that happened to me when I finally realized "Why am I still using Standard gear when I have 80,000,000 ISK?" That wasn't "locked PC" or "playing in Squads"; that was just "I played the game long enough that it built up." If my mediocre ass can do it, I assure that anyone can. Trying to help the newer player now is like trying to figure out the best way to prevent white rhinos from killing people; there is a larger concern here. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.07 23:30:00 - [12] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: I agree that this is a problem, a fairly big one earlier in the game's life. I have often wondered why the bonuses are not more flattened. For example, EVE did a massive re-work on their skills. It used to be that X Missile Operation would give you 2% damage per level and X Missile Specialization gave you like 5% more damage per level. Now Operation was an easier skill to level than Specialization, so it was easy to get a small benefit and very hard to get the huge benefit. The change made it to where the easier skill would give you the bigger number and the harder skill the smaller number. They did it with most weapon skills. DUST could certainly do the same thing. Buff Shield, Armor, CPU, and PG on Suits but lower the effectiveness on Engineering, Electronics, and the skills that govern defensive stats. It would mean that the difference between "I have 2 million SP" and "I have 15 million SP unspent because I have everything I want" would be smaller but one would still clearly be better. Engineering would be nerfed to be only 10% PG rather than 25% but every suit would have a PG buff so that Level 5 Engineering would be the same but people with lower skills invested would have a bigger benefit. The change can also be done by front loading skills. The first level would give you 50% of the total bonus and the next 4 levels would fill in the rest. IE, Engineering would give 12.5% more PG at level 1 but levels 2, 3, 4, and 5 would only give 3.125%. Total is still 25%. And if DUST weren't fully dependent on like 2,200ish veterans that continue to play, I think it would be a bigger concern. There are virtually no new players coming into the game. Anyone who is still playing this game at this point is a veteran. The people that are still playing have probably been playing long enough to have amassed enough money to run prototype. It is the same thing that happened to me when I finally realized "Why am I still using Standard gear when I have 80,000,000 ISK?" That wasn't "locked PC" or "playing in Squads"; that was just "I played the game long enough that it built up." If my mediocre ass can do it, I assure that anyone can. Trying to help the newer player now is like trying to figure out the best way to prevent white rhinos from killing people; there is a larger concern here. +1 That would be a huge over haul, but I can see its merit for sure. It would go a long way in balancing new and veteran players. I only disagree about the new player thing. I run into new players almost every day. Or players that have never gotten past std. or adv. gear because of time and/or the many facets of this game. I played EVE so this wasn't a totally unfamiliar interface and set up, but it took me a solid month of playing everyday to really feel confident in creating a load out and understanding the dynamics. For totally new players I can only imagine what this or EVE would look like to untrained eyes. Combine trying to learn what is arguably the most complicated FPS and then veteran players putting them down like sick dogs, they will barely have a reason to git gud and progress. If it's not fun, why would people do it? Learning Dust wasn't a walk in the park, and I'm surprised there's so many vets who don't give a ****. Let's complain about a dying game while we stomp on its windpipe.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 37	Posted - 2015.10.07 23:32:00 - [13] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Sorry to steal your info Shaun, I hope you don't mind me reposting it. All credit goes to him, I'm just a copypasta machine. No problem, I put it out there because I think it's worth discussing. Ahkhomi Cypher wrote: We also have to look at skill level and not just level of gear because some people just suck at the game while others are better. This is one of the reasons that I'm for some sort of tier + SP equalized mode. How can a newer player judge their skill (and any improvements in it) when they're going up against other players with a pretty significant HP/DPS differential? In a firefight they may make the right decision but instead of being rewarded with a kill they ended up getting punished because their opponent simply has higher stats. It messes up the learning experience to always have to question every death with 'was that actually a bad move or was that death just a result of the bad guy having higher (E: tier) gear and higher SP than me?' I think there will always be a place in DUST for the extra layer of choice that STD/ADV/PRO adds on top of regular loadout choices, but for the health of the game I think there needs to be a space where players can test their skill without tier and SP modifiers confounding the outcome.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.10.07 23:57:00 - [14] - Quote One player's gear and SP should not outweigh another's skill, planning and/or superior tactics. In my opinion a high-skill, early career player should not have difficulty outplaying a low-skill, late-career player (provided he brings the right tools for the job). For this reason, I'm inclined to agree that the performance disparity presently afforded by gear and SP is too significant. Not sure how to fix it, but I will say that the problem was less readily apparent in Chromosome. I don't consider myself to be an excellent player, but as a broke newbro in STD gear at the time, I had no issue taking out the vets in high-end gear in those [rare] instances wherein I outplayed them. I personally believe that TTK is key; everyone died faster in Chromosome. I'm very much concerned that we're moving in the wrong direction with regard to TTK, and I anticipate that NPE will suffer as direct result. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 37	Posted - 2015.10.08 00:38:00 - [15] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: For this reason, I'm inclined to agree that the performance disparity presently afforded by gear and SP is too significant. I appreciate that from a player on the other end of the spectrum. Adipem Nothi wrote: I personally believe that TTK is key; everyone died faster in Chromosome. I'm very much concerned that we're moving in the wrong direction with regard to TTK, and I anticipate that NPE will suffer as direct result. I guess TTK is what my numbers all boil down to. Very generally speaking a vet has a 93% higher TTK than a new player, so trying to shorten it on the higher end is inevitably going to cause death-by-stray-bullet problems on the lower end. To be fair, credit to whichever devs do the numbers on that stuff. Bringing a game to a 'playable' state, knowing that two players running the same class could have a 93% difference in TTK must be a nightmare.
xavier zor XxAMBUSH FTWxX 2	Posted - 2015.10.08 00:42:00 - [16] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: To the OP. People wouldn't risk their proto/officer gear even half as much if they aren't squaded up ( other than Thales ect. ) prolly never officer gear solo. One or two people running good gear won't cause a stomp, squading in pubs is much more powerful. Most people will never know the feeling of seeing 12+ people from the same Corp opposing them in pubs... I saw it for years. a lot of people here know this feeling. keep your random sh*t talking out of serious threads. sLaYeR I'm a knifing pussy ^-^/
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 37	Posted - 2015.10.08 00:54:00 - [17] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: One or two people running good gear won't cause a stomp, squading in pubs is much more powerful. xavier zor wrote: a lot of people here know this feeling. keep your random sh*t talking out of serious threads. I'm willing to concede I'm completely missing something here, but: Nearly every other fps has a 'squad' mechanic, yet very few of them suffer the frequency of pubstomping that Dust does. Other than the gear that squadded up mercs run, what makes squads in Dust so much more powerful?
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 01:24:00 - [18] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME is under the impression that players in squads are a greater detriment to pub play than the performance disparity between new and veteran players. As you said, every other fps has this feature, yet none of the same extreme stomping at the same frequency as Dust. I don't know how he can ignore the numbers in this very thread and instead blame a tried and true mechanic.
xavier zor XxAMBUSH FTWxX 2	Posted - 2015.10.08 01:26:00 - [19] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: One or two people running good gear won't cause a stomp, squading in pubs is much more powerful. xavier zor wrote: a lot of people here know this feeling. keep your random sh*t talking out of serious threads. I'm willing to concede I'm completely missing something here, but: Nearly every other fps has a 'squad' mechanic, yet very few of them suffer the frequency of pubstomping that Dust does. Other than the gear that squadded up mercs run, what makes squads in Dust so much more powerful? totally not sp sLaYeR I'm a knifing pussy ^-^/
Lost Apollo Moose Knuckle Pros 117	Posted - 2015.10.08 01:34:00 - [20] - Quote I can agree that pubstomping sucks. I really hate corps like Carne Con Papas. Protostompers in pubs, all the time. Proto and officer stomps all damn day. It amazes me that an AR can out-range a RR, and out dps the damn thing too. I have around 700 eHP on my Rasetsu and these mother ******* melt me like butter. However, MKNP (Moose Knuckle Pros) has been doing well lately. Me and my squad run either starter fits or LP/Apex suits and we stomp sometimes. My CEO went 30/18 and I went 29/10. The thought behind that is, as some have stated, skill level. I believe some type of gear lock would help to reduce stomps. My armor is weak, but my shields are relentless. State "Kampo" Logistics Born - April 1, 2013

lamo guys Corrosive Synergy 61	Posted - 2015.10.08 01:46:00 - [21] - Quote I think it depends on what squad you face really. It could be just some randoms, or you get 4 man team of straight up team work and communication! Plus suits to deal with anything on the battlefield. I know if I go solo I take my chances with what I get for players, but if I squad with my corp I know we will either win or die trying. Loosing a close battle is well worth the lost isk than a boring blowout! So when ransoms get the snot pounded out of them its no fun for either side, but that's just me. I'm sure there are plenty of people that enjoy killing a team but really how does that make you a better player? Plus I think skirm is a way better battle to play then Dom, so tired of it. Don't blink it will be over quick
Mortishai Belmont G.L.O.R.Y 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 01:51:00 - [22] - Quote And if you do manage to kill them, what's the % of isk loss compared to yours? I think they lose like 10,000% more isk then you do so, how is that not fair? The C.E.O. of G.L.O.R.Y, (~..)~ Now on Youtube ~(..~)
Thor Odinson42 Ancient Exiles. Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 7	Posted - 2015.10.08 01:54:00 - [23] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: One or two people running good gear won't cause a stomp, squading in pubs is much more powerful. xavier zor wrote: a lot of people here know this feeling. keep your random sh*t talking out of serious threads. I'm willing to concede I'm completely missing something here, but: Nearly every other fps has a 'squad' mechanic, yet very few of them suffer the frequency of pubstomping that Dust does. Other than the gear that squadded up mercs run, what makes squads in Dust so much more powerful? Communication and familiarity Seriously, port it. Hurry
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 37	Posted - 2015.10.08 01:58:00 - [24] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Shaun Iwairo wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: One or two people running good gear won't cause a stomp, squading in pubs is much more powerful. xavier zor wrote: a lot of people here know this feeling. keep your random sh*t talking out of serious threads. I'm willing to concede I'm completely missing something here, but: Nearly every other fps has a 'squad' mechanic, yet very few of them suffer the frequency of pubstomping that Dust does. Other than the gear that squadded up mercs run, what makes squads in Dust so much more powerful? Communication and familiarity I agree, but every 'squad' in an fps gains this advantage which is why I don't think it's a contributing factor to Dusts unusually high frequency of pubstomping.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.10.08 02:19:00 - [25] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: For this reason, I'm inclined to agree that the performance disparity presently afforded by gear and SP is too significant. I appreciate that from a player on the other end of the spectrum. Adipem Nothi wrote: I personally believe that TTK is key; everyone died faster in Chromosome. I'm very much concerned that we're moving in the wrong direction with regard to TTK, and I anticipate that NPE will suffer as direct result. I guess TTK is what my numbers all boil down to. Very generally speaking a vet has a 93% higher TTK than a new player, so trying to shorten it on the higher end is inevitably going to cause death-by-stray-bullet problems on the lower end. To be fair, credit to whichever devs do the numbers on that stuff. Bringing a game to a 'playable' state, knowing that two players running the same class could have a 93% difference in TTK must be a nightmare. While I appreciate the math in the OP, the TTK disparity between a given newbro and a given vet is not necessarily a "constant" shared among all newbros and vets. HP levels vary by class, by tier and by loadout. A PRO Assault unit, for example, can fit high-end HP modules whereas a STD Assault unit cannot. Directly buffing shield extenders, for example, would benefit both the PRO and STD Cal Assault units, though the PRO unit would benefit by greater degree as the delta at complex tier would exceed that at standard or advanced tier. And compared to a Cal Commando, for instance, our Cal Assault units would benefit by far greater degree, due to difference in slot count between the two classes. Adjustments to TTK -- whether up or down -- do not impact all classes, loadouts and tiers by the same degree. Dropsuit Usage Rates
KGB Sleep 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 02:39:00 - [26] - Quote HTFU cheapskates Because beer, that's why.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 37	Posted - 2015.10.08 02:41:00 - [27] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shaun Iwairo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I personally believe that TTK is key; everyone died faster in Chromosome. I'm very much concerned that we're moving in the wrong direction with regard to TTK, and I anticipate that NPE will suffer as direct result. I guess TTK is what my numbers all boil down to. Very generally speaking a vet has a 93% higher TTK than a new player, so trying to shorten it on the higher end is inevitably going to cause death-by-stray-bullet problems on the lower end. To be fair, credit to whichever devs do the numbers on that stuff. Bringing a game to a 'playable' state, knowing that two players running the same class could have a 93% difference in TTK must be a nightmare. While I appreciate the math in the OP, the TTK disparity between a given newbro and a given vet is not necessarily shared among all newbros and vets. HP levels vary by class, by tier and by loadout. A PRO Assault unit, for example, can fit high-end HP modules whereas a STD Assault unit cannot. Directly buffing HP modules would benefit both the PRO and STD Assault units, assuming they're both running HP modules, but the PRO unit would benefit by greater degree. And compared to a Commando , for example, the PRO Assault (in this scenario) would benefit by far greater degree, due to difference in slot count between the two classes. Adjustments to TTK -- whether up or down -- do not impact all classes, loadouts and tiers by the same degree. Yep I'm with you on all your points. I realize my statement of '93% higher TTK' is kinda flawed, hence my caveat of 'very generally speaking', but I do believe it serves it's purpose of showing the basic impact of tier and SP on TTK. If the difference in stats between STD/ADV/PRO/OFC and also those provided by skills were all brought closer in line with each other then making tweaks to a more global TTK goal would be much easier. Even if it's just in one unique mode, removing the effect of those differences completely would bring on some of the most balanced gameplay Dust has ever seen. Scotty has a pretty good idea of the skill of the players he's putting up against each other, but he has no idea what gear they're going to bring.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.10.08 03:08:00 - [28] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: If the difference in stats between STD/ADV/PRO/OFC and also those provided by skills were all brought closer in line with each other then making tweaks to a more global TTK goal would be much easier. Even if it's just in one unique mode, removing the effect of those differences completely would bring on some of the most balanced gameplay Dust has ever seen. Scotty has a pretty good idea of the skill of the players he's putting up against each other, but he has no idea what gear they're going to bring. I don't know what you mean by "more global TTK goal", but I also favor the idea of slight performance advantages at exponentially increasing costs. Gear and SP should afford only a slight advantage in combat. I suspect that's been the general idea all along, actually. It was the case in Chromosome. Somewhere along the way, substantial performance disparity set it in. Superior skill, planning, positioning, tactics, teamwork, having the right tool for the job, etc ... these should matter more in a gunfight than having a shinier suit, more SP and moar HP than one's opponent. Specifically how to go about getting there -- and whether or not it'd be a good idea for DUST at this juncture -- I honestly don't know. But I do know that performance disparity at opposing ends of the experience spectrum has worsened with HP Creep, and I doubt seriously that a solution to this problem will be found in more HP Creep. PS (Tangent): If you want consistently well-balanced matches, I'll give you a shortcut. Your very best bet is a solo Ambush queue. This would make for a far quicker, cleaner and less bumpy fix than trying to narrow all the gaps which separate early career mercs from late career mercs. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Summa Militum Art.of.Death 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 03:14:00 - [29] - Quote maybe deadcatz wrote: I kinda run apex or standard suits only in pubs. I have 500 sheild and 194 armour (rasetsu) or 440ish armour and 194sheilds(in my gall assault) I repair and regen sheild really quickly at the cost of super stacked HP. Just apply enough alpha damage before I can react or wear me down from multiple fights. Becuase everyone deserves a fair chance. I avoid reps by logis(they can wp ***** off of someone who is actually trying) I don't always die to milita but when I do its because he saw me near dead after giving someone in proto a whuping with a supposedly "underpowered weapon" (assault rifles best ftw beetches). Only in PC or sometimes fw I will run proto. Maybe one match of pubs in proto but that's when I feel like I have some isk to spare. Every time I play against members of your Corporation in Public Contracts all they run is Proto and they are always squaded up.
Lost Apollo Moose Knuckle Pros 117	Posted - 2015.10.08 03:28:00 - [30] - Quote maybe deadcatz wrote: I kinda run apex or standard suits only in pubs. I have 500 sheild and 194 armour (rasetsu) or 440ish armour and 194sheilds(in my gall assault) I repair and regen sheild really quickly at the cost of super stacked HP. Just apply enough alpha damage before I can react or wear me down from multiple fights. Becuase everyone deserves a fair chance. I avoid reps by logis(they can wp ***** off of someone who is actually trying) I don't always die to milita but when I do its because he saw me near dead after giving someone in proto a whuping with a supposedly "underpowered weapon" (assault rifles best ftw beetches). Only in PC or sometimes fw I will run proto. Maybe one match of pubs in proto but that's when I feel like I have some isk to spare. I have never seen a person from your corp that doesn't run proto gear man. FW, pubs, PC... it is always proto... Of course, I have never ran into you that I can recall tbh. My armor is weak, but my shields are relentless. State "Kampo" Logistics Born - April 1, 2013

BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 278	Posted - 2015.10.08 03:29:00 - [31] - Quote Ahkhomi Cypher wrote: We also have to look at skill level and not just level of gear because some people just suck at the game while others are better. Through all of this meta talk thats one bigass factor that people are leaving out of the equation. Some people suck at the game. Some people are really good at it. In a PC you can kinda expect guys like D4GG3R and Arianna to do well. In a meta locked/tier locked game mode they're still gonna be styling on hoes. Did this guy read this before he posted????? 93.% is not a gap you ever overcome with "good".....that means you get owned unless you meet the other guy at 53% of his EHP. Also remember you have to be better than good because that proto weapon is more accurate as well. That means in many cases new players don't even have enough rounds in a clip to finish a proto player. It also means if you meet him at full health he walks away at almost half health and can numerically still finish another player off. That is a virtual 2 : 1 guarantee. Another thing some of you might not want to hear but need to understand....THERE IS NO ACTUAL SKILL INVOLVED IN A FPS. It's a GAME and in truth involves no actual skill that you can improve. Understand what skills are...moving your thumbs is not a skill. You can get better at playing the game by making better decisions because you understand the matchup and maps, but the limited set of variables in the game (which revolve mostly around gear and SPs) does not allow anyone to "break" the game. There are activities you can do to pad your stats but if you are playing in your MU the K/D will normalize. This is because if you are playing someone on completely even footing 1v1 believe it or not most are just as skilled at moving their thumbs as you are. So unless you are using exploits(including FOTM), KMB macros, hit detection dancing, playing out of your MU, or sqauding (which is part of the social aspect of the game) you will not routinely outplay people of your SP level. The key is not putting the low SP players in with the high or making solo players constantly go up against squads. Those new guys need an environment to play in where you don't have losers simply picking on them. As for people owning..no they will not.(For one you just mentioned two people that never run solo) Math, again, bears that out. There is a reason that guys that stay about six months suddenly turn their K/D and WP generation around. They finally have their cores maxed and a couple roles proto. Then they can adapt to the game as it flows more. Try being a guy with 10 mill SP all in Cal stuff and finding out 10 players on the other team are running scramblers. Its not going to go well for you. On the other hand if you have even 50 mill you have multiple roles, suits, and AV options available. The people with more SPs have many more options to counter the other teams play style. That is a big deal. Essentially you can't "good" your way past the gear and SP gap. Math is math and some players will always play better than others, but not 30 to 1 better. In truth without padding not even 3 to 1 better.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 278	Posted - 2015.10.08 03:33:00 - [32] - Quote Lost Apollo wrote: maybe deadcatz wrote: I kinda run apex or standard suits only in pubs. I have 500 sheild and 194 armour (rasetsu) or 440ish armour and 194sheilds(in my gall assault) I repair and regen sheild really quickly at the cost of super stacked HP. Just apply enough alpha damage before I can react or wear me down from multiple fights. Becuase everyone deserves a fair chance. I avoid reps by logis(they can wp ***** off of someone who is actually trying) I don't always die to milita but when I do its because he saw me near dead after giving someone in proto a whuping with a supposedly "underpowered weapon" (assault rifles best ftw beetches). Only in PC or sometimes fw I will run proto. Maybe one match of pubs in proto but that's when I feel like I have some isk to spare. I have never seen a person from your corp that doesn't run proto gear man. FW, pubs, PC... it is always proto... Of course, I have never ran into you that I can recall tbh. Man, just gonna say I see the same from the Moose knuckles... What's worse I see your guys farming the low MU early in the day when I watch my friends games. Nothing personal, and I agree with what you said about that corp, but you are the preverbal pot calling the kettle black there.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 278	Posted - 2015.10.08 03:42:00 - [33] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: You're right, I too enjoy the challenge. It's extremely satisfying to know they are spending double, triple and beyond to run that kit. I have no issue with proto here and there, it's the consistent stomps that are strangling this game to death (among the laundry list of other things). I was gifted an APEX and standard BPO recently. Prior to that, when I was in standard and adv. I would often go is negative because I refused to leave games, even trying to play logi is impossible in some stomps because you're either all sitting back in the mcc or redline avoiding the 10 to 20 deaths coming your way. I'm all for a challenge, but running by the numbers it's like unmodded civic trying to race a turbo fully nodded civic. **** ain't gonna happen, unless the turbo driver fails at life and can't drive the car. Same with proto, unless you suck at the game you should be able to take anyone with lesser kit. When a newer player has to land 90-112% more shots, that's not a challenge. That's idiocy. And those numbers are not exceptionally rare cases, that's the norm now in games. Pro suits and officer weapons all day. What you have to understand is that the game's economy is broken..... Those guys going 15/5 on proto are losing money, but have so much from PC that they will never go broke. They can't understand that they are actually bad at DUST. They see K/D and confuse it with making money. As a Merc making money every game is the goal. Once you remove the financial limitations players will naturally crutch the proto. They have no reason not to. If you want to stop stomping..easy...just reset assets and kill the broken PC system. Its lagggy and usless. Of topic, but it is the root of the issue.
MrShooter01 Ustio Mercenary Squadron 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 03:52:00 - [34] - Quote Lost Apollo wrote: I can agree that pubstomping sucks. I really hate corps like Carne Con Papas. Protostompers in pubs, all the time. Proto and officer stomps all damn day. It amazes me that an AR can out-range a RR, and out dps the damn thing too. I have around 700 eHP on my Rasetsu and these mother ******* melt me like butter. However, MKNP (Moose Knuckle Pros) has been doing well lately. Me and my squad run either starter fits or LP/Apex suits and we stomp sometimes. My CEO went 30/18 and I went 29/10. The thought behind that is, as some have stated, skill level. I believe some type of gear lock would help to reduce stomps. After a certain point, I switch to a dirt cheap spite fit and just try to cost them their gear Five complex plates and 700 dps isn't going to save you from a forge shot or plasma cannon round, and your myo stacking Experimental ACR logibro can't stab a needle into the smouldering remains of your officer suit if its been blown into chunky salsa
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 37	Posted - 2015.10.08 03:53:00 - [35] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shaun Iwairo wrote: If the difference in stats between STD/ADV/PRO/OFC and also those provided by skills were all brought closer in line with each other then making tweaks to a more global TTK goal would be much easier. Even if it's just in one unique mode, removing the effect of those differences completely would bring on some of the most balanced gameplay Dust has ever seen. Scotty has a pretty good idea of the skill of the players he's putting up against each other, but he has no idea what gear they're going to bring. I don't know what you mean by "more global TTK goal", but I also favor the idea of slight performance advantages at exponentially increasing costs. Gear and SP should afford only a slight advantage in combat ... Specifically how to go about getting there -- and whether or not it'd be a good idea for DUST at this juncture -- I honestly don't know. But I do know that performance disparity at opposing ends of the experience spectrum has worsened with HP Creep, and I doubt seriously that a solution to this problem will be found in more HP Creep. I can see how you got there, but I am absolutely not suggesting more HP without the corresponding changes to DPS. You are spot on when you say that the TTK in Dust is a bit too long as it is.
PARKOUR PRACTIONER L0RDS 0F LEGI0N 3	Posted - 2015.10.08 04:21:00 - [36] - Quote KGB Sleep wrote: HTFU cheapskates Don't tell me how to live my life. CQC gun in CQC= OMFG I WAS KILLED IN CQC! Skill of a newberry ATM, but don't worry ill get better (i think) /Z)/V//V
xavier zor XxAMBUSH FTWxX 2	Posted - 2015.10.08 04:23:00 - [37] - Quote PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote: KGB Sleep wrote: HTFU cheapskates Don't tell me how to live my life. HTFU sLaYeR I'm a knifing pussy ^-^/
chill penguin Red and Silver Hand 600	Posted - 2015.10.08 04:28:00 - [38] - Quote xavier zor wrote: PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote: KGB Sleep wrote: HTFU cheapskates Don't tell me how to live my life. HTFU You definitely need a huge dose of HTFU. VAHZZ.'s alt, because like Badger, i ain't scuuurred. #freecubs
Vicious Minotaur 3	Posted - 2015.10.08 04:51:00 - [39] - Quote Imma just make another post asking: Why the hell does anything other than proto/officer exist? Militia? Standard? Advanced? Why do those three tiers exist? It does not make sense. They are obsolete: worthless. They have no reason being here. They are just borked... We have five tiers of equipment. FIVE. I can't think of any way to legitimize that shlt. Not only do we need to find a way to balance teams/ matchmaking with regards to player skill, but we have to add on top of that FIVE GOD DAMNED TIERS TO BALANCE, TOO. Dafuq is with that? Minotaurs are sexy. Unlike you... Jerkoff. Go to your hole and rot there, you filthy piece of garbage.
Summa Militum Art.of.Death 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 04:54:00 - [40] - Quote Mortishai Belmont wrote: And if you do manage to kill them, what's the % of isk loss compared to yours? I think they lose like 10,000% more isk then you do so, how is that not fair? Your logic is ****** and you are clearly delusional.

HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 05:03:00 - [41] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: To the OP. People wouldn't risk their proto/officer gear even half as much if they aren't squaded up ( other than Thales ect. ) prolly never officer gear solo. One or two people running good gear won't cause a stomp, squading in pubs is much more powerful. Most people will never know the feeling of seeing 12+ people from the same Corp opposing them in pubs... I saw it for years. The playerbase is to small to divide it further. Get rid of fire teams in pubs and people will be forced to play what they can afford. Just because some people want to go full lemming at the objective and don't care about strategy because they only run cheap gear dosnt mean we all want to play that way. This isn't call of duty ** costs isk. Do you even pub? Go play 10 games. Record how many times you die to proto/ofc players across those matches. I think you'll find its a lot more common than you think. And you're not dividing anything. You're restricting what can be used. At any point they can choose not to use their pro/ofc kits and fight at the top of the pub brackets. Then for higher levels of play like FW and PC, anything goes. I think the only issue would be proto/ofc players who refuse to change how they play, if they queue pubs in that gear, it should fill the game with players of similar meta. If the only detriment is pro/ofc players waiting in longer PUB queues, so be it. It will help so many aspects of the game, I could give a about the high end players waiting in pub queues because they refuse to change their kit. No one is forced into anything. Like you want the "lemmings" to git gud, I want the pro/ofc stompers to git real. I only run pubs ( because I almost always run solo ). Two different tiers Is dividing the players. I run a mix of mostly advanced with some proto suits ( even then I use advanced weapons mostly). It literally took years to get to where I can afford to run upper tier gear and not lose isk. I ran officer this was the result http://imgur.com/u3pkZEt the worstt I did in that fit was 47-1. Now check my stats and tell me I run that ** all the time moron. I also don't go c.o.d. Idiot mode and rush the enemy and expect to win. I hardly ever break 20 kills and if I die 10+ times in a round I think to myself wtf was I doing wrong... Oh yeah I got obsessed with one tactic. I should have done somthing compleatly different at 5 deaths. I'm closing on 150 million sp ( 250 if you count my alt ) not many people have more experience than me. I'm not the best but I don't give up, I don't leave battle and I don't blame loss simply on gear. I don't PC because my Corp is just me and my wife, I don't FW because of team killing ( last time I played it as I was hacking an objective a nyan san guy nova knifed me ) and idiots that blow up equipment ( since I logi a lot ) not to mention I have access to everything I want so it holds nothing for me. I've played with plenty of people who say there good then go somthing like 10-20 over and over but could care less because their cheap gear costs nothing and they still profit. I've hated proto stomping much longer than you. But watch most those guys play solo and get their ass get handed to them. A solo officer setup will not swing most rounds, it's squads doing it. Squads are the problem
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 05:07:00 - [42] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shaun Iwairo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: For this reason, I'm inclined to agree that the performance disparity presently afforded by gear and SP is too significant. I appreciate that from a player on the other end of the spectrum. Adipem Nothi wrote: I personally believe that TTK is key; everyone died faster in Chromosome. I'm very much concerned that we're moving in the wrong direction with regard to TTK, and I anticipate that NPE will suffer as direct result. I guess TTK is what my numbers all boil down to. Very generally speaking a vet has a 93% higher TTK than a new player, so trying to shorten it on the higher end is inevitably going to cause death-by-stray-bullet problems on the lower end. To be fair, credit to whichever devs do the numbers on that stuff. Bringing a game to a 'playable' state, knowing that two players running the same class could have a 93% difference in TTK must be a nightmare. While I appreciate the math in the OP, the TTK disparity between a given newbro and a given vet is not necessarily a "constant" shared among all newbros and vets. HP levels vary by class, by tier and by loadout. A PRO Assault unit, for example, can fit high-end HP modules whereas a STD Assault unit cannot. Directly buffing shield extenders, for example, would benefit both the PRO and STD Cal Assault units, though the PRO unit would benefit by greater degree as the delta at complex tier would exceed that at standard or advanced tier. And compared to a Cal Commando, for instance, our Cal Assault units would benefit by far greater degree, due to difference in slot count between the two classes. Adjustments to TTK -- whether up or down -- do not impact all classes, loadouts and tiers by the same degree. I think this example serves as an average or benchmark for performance disparity. You could do this with each faction, each class, and popular loadouts and the performance disparity will still exist at similar levels. If someone has the time and motivation to make some spreadsheets, that'd be insightful. But i feel the numbers Shaun has ran give us enough idea that things aren't quite right. Money is a big concern for young mercs along with SP. Veteran players have enough of both to not feel the pain. They have enough SP to counter most tactics, vehicles or loadouts. New players don't have enough money or SP to do either of those things. Essentially the gaming experience is deeper for vets, making the game seem bare bones and limiting to newer players. Combine that with performance disparity and stomps, why would people want to play this game?
HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 05:11:00 - [43] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME is under the impression that players in squads are a greater detriment to pub play than the performance disparity between new and veteran players. As you said, every other fps has this feature, yet none of the same extreme stomping at the same frequency as Dust. I don't know how he can ignore the numbers in this very thread and instead blame a tried and true mechanic. Ever seen sax's video " one squad 140 kills " yeah totally not a thing.
HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 05:15:00 - [44] - Quote BARAGAMOS wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: You're right, I too enjoy the challenge. It's extremely satisfying to know they are spending double, triple and beyond to run that kit. I have no issue with proto here and there, it's the consistent stomps that are strangling this game to death (among the laundry list of other things). I was gifted an APEX and standard BPO recently. Prior to that, when I was in standard and adv. I would often go is negative because I refused to leave games, even trying to play logi is impossible in some stomps because you're either all sitting back in the mcc or redline avoiding the 10 to 20 deaths coming your way. I'm all for a challenge, but running by the numbers it's like unmodded civic trying to race a turbo fully nodded civic. **** ain't gonna happen, unless the turbo driver fails at life and can't drive the car. Same with proto, unless you suck at the game you should be able to take anyone with lesser kit. When a newer player has to land 90-112% more shots, that's not a challenge. That's idiocy. And those numbers are not exceptionally rare cases, that's the norm now in games. Pro suits and officer weapons all day. What you have to understand is that the game's economy is broken..... Those guys going 15/5 on proto are losing money, but have so much from PC that they will never go broke. They can't understand that they are actually bad at DUST. They see K/D and confuse it with making money. As a Merc making money every game is the goal. Once you remove the financial limitations players will naturally crutch the proto. They have no reason not to. If you want to stop stomping..easy...just reset assets and kill the broken PC system. Its lagggy and usless. Of topic, but it is the root of the issue. Agreed I have over a billion isk from solo play... Resetting assets and zeroing my wallet would not change my play style at all.
Ateroith KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 212	Posted - 2015.10.08 05:40:00 - [45] - Quote MAKE IT HAPPEN MAKE IT HAPPEN MAKE IT HAPPEN lol Today I was playing a match, then I realized there was a protostomp team on the other end. At the end of the game, I mailed him asking not to use proto gear in pubs, and told him that he was ruining the game. He gave me the classic middle finger. I was laughing because this guy got all his points from Warbarges and Core Locuses, and he told me to F off. This guy xD "...Rule #2 - Never start a fight. Rule #3 - Never lose one either." - Lee Child
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 05:40:00 - [46] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME is under the impression that players in squads are a greater detriment to pub play than the performance disparity between new and veteran players. As you said, every other fps has this feature, yet none of the same extreme stomping at the same frequency as Dust. I don't know how he can ignore the numbers in this very thread and instead blame a tried and true mechanic. Ever seen sax's video " one squad 140 kills " yeah totally not a thing. What gear were they running? I have not seen most Dust videos as I started playing roughly 2 months ago. And providing a single anecdotal example doesn't serve to make a very good point. Remember, single examples usually serve as exceptions, not rules. If you can provide any data on your points, we could at least have an intelligent debate. Everything you bring up is anecdotal at best.
PARKOUR PRACTIONER L0RDS 0F LEGI0N 3	Posted - 2015.10.08 05:47:00 - [47] - Quote chill penguin wrote: xavier zor wrote: PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote: KGB Sleep wrote: HTFU cheapskates Don't tell me how to live my life. HTFU You definitely need a huge dose of HTFU. REMOVED. Lets see were it goes... CQC gun in CQC= OMFG I WAS KILLED IN CQC! Skill of a newberry ATM, but don't worry ill get better (i think) /Z)/V//V
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 05:49:00 - [48] - Quote Ateroith wrote: MAKE IT HAPPEN MAKE IT HAPPEN MAKE IT HAPPEN lol Today I was playing a match, then I realized there was a protostomp team on the other end. At the end of the game, I mailed him asking not to use proto gear in pubs, and told him that he was ruining the game. He gave me the classic middle finger. I was laughing because this guy got all his points from Warbarges and Core Locuses, and he told me to F off. This guy xD Seems the typical response. I tried to ask one player to squad with me and run adv. gear, instead of proto. Was called a scrub (even though I killed him several times) and then blocked. What's with the attitude? Some people need to drop the ego and be real for a minute, this **** is whack.
xavier zor XxAMBUSH FTWxX 2	Posted - 2015.10.08 05:50:00 - [49] - Quote chill penguin wrote: xavier zor wrote: PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote: KGB Sleep wrote: HTFU cheapskates Don't tell me how to live my life. HTFU You definitely need a huge dose of HTFU. With??? Teaching noobs like you how to go positive in pubs? sLaYeR I'm a knifing pussy ^-^/
Ateroith KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 212	Posted - 2015.10.08 05:52:00 - [50] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME is under the impression that players in squads are a greater detriment to pub play than the performance disparity between new and veteran players. As you said, every other fps has this feature, yet none of the same extreme stomping at the same frequency as Dust. I don't know how he can ignore the numbers in this very thread and instead blame a tried and true mechanic. Ever seen sax's video " one squad 140 kills " yeah totally not a thing. What gear were they running? I have not seen most Dust videos as I started playing roughly 2 months ago. And providing a single anecdotal example doesn't serve to make a very good point. Remember, single examples usually serve as exceptions, not rules. If you can provide any data on your points, we could at least have an intelligent debate. Everything you bring up is anecdotal at best. If you have only been playing for 2 months, then I need to step up my forum game. You've got more likes than me xD "...Rule #2 - Never start a fight. Rule #3 - Never lose one either." - Lee Child

Leovarian L Lavitz TRAILS AND TRIBULATIONS 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 05:53:00 - [51] - Quote We can normalize hp modules like weapons, Std module adv module + 7% Pro module + 3% (or just 10% more than std) This means that a pro suit fit the same as a Std suit but pro, will have 10% more hp and damage We can change proficiency to reduce counter profile loss instead of bonusing its profile damage Eg: combat rifle proficiency 3% damage to armor per level Becomes +3% reduction to shield penalty per level (20%reduction per level) Eg: laser rifle 3% damage to shields per level Becomes +4% reduction to armor penalty per level (20% reduction per level) Youtube: Dust 514 - You should Have Worn Proto Playstation move player
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 05:59:00 - [52] - Quote Ateroith wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME is under the impression that players in squads are a greater detriment to pub play than the performance disparity between new and veteran players. As you said, every other fps has this feature, yet none of the same extreme stomping at the same frequency as Dust. I don't know how he can ignore the numbers in this very thread and instead blame a tried and true mechanic. Ever seen sax's video " one squad 140 kills " yeah totally not a thing. What gear were they running? I have not seen most Dust videos as I started playing roughly 2 months ago. And providing a single anecdotal example doesn't serve to make a very good point. Remember, single examples usually serve as exceptions, not rules. If you can provide any data on your points, we could at least have an intelligent debate. Everything you bring up is anecdotal at best. If you have only been playing for 2 months, then I need to step up my forum game. You've got more likes than me xD It's mostly a conspiracy, I like all my posts with my alts.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 06:02:00 - [53] - Quote Leovarian L Lavitz wrote: We can normalize hp modules like weapons, Std module adv module + 7% Pro module + 3% (or just 10% more than std) This means that a pro suit fit the same as a Std suit but pro, will have 10% more hp and damage We can change proficiency to reduce counter profile loss instead of bonusing its profile damage Eg: combat rifle proficiency 3% damage to armor per level Becomes +3% reduction to shield penalty per level (20%reduction per level) Eg: laser rifle 3% damage to shields per level Becomes +4% reduction to armor penalty per level (20% reduction per level) I like this idea, but it might be touching to many variables.
Leovarian L Lavitz TRAILS AND TRIBULATIONS 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 06:16:00 - [54] - Quote Or, we can get rid of proficiency and move fitting optimization to its place. Our we can make proficiency only 1% per level Youtube: Dust 514 - You should Have Worn Proto Playstation move player
HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 06:22:00 - [55] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME is under the impression that players in squads are a greater detriment to pub play than the performance disparity between new and veteran players. As you said, every other fps has this feature, yet none of the same extreme stomping at the same frequency as Dust. I don't know how he can ignore the numbers in this very thread and instead blame a tried and true mechanic. Ever seen sax's video " one squad 140 kills " yeah totally not a thing. What gear were they running? I have not seen most Dust videos as I started playing roughly 2 months ago. And providing a single anecdotal example doesn't serve to make a very good point. Remember, single examples usually serve as exceptions, not rules. If you can provide any data on your points, we could at least have an intelligent debate. Everything you bring up is anecdotal at best. 2 months and you'r complaining Jesus. I was complaining about proto stomps 2 years ago. I now have the experience to form an opinion. You have no idea how much more balanced it is now than then. Ever been Thales (or rail turret or missiled for that matter) sniped from 599m? I have. I doubt you even have all your core skills, one suit, one weapon, a sidearm, and one piece of equipment to max. 2 months and you even think for one second you know this game better than someone who has earned over 250 million sp solo? Your knowledge of the game is **, you don't know what the ** your talking about. I've tried to point out the real problem but your a moron. I may just delete all my low end fittings (3/4 of my fits) and build just proto and officer fits only just to spite you personally.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 06:49:00 - [56] - Quote Simple solution? PvE. Or a training mode that costs 10,000 isk,but rewards 1/2,2/3 SP. Endless clones on both sides. You can deploy in any of your preset fits for free. And leave/collect your SP anytime. As well as your K/D shown upon leaving. Can't be used for events of course. *possibly Randomized gamemodes selected every XX minutes of play. (to redeploy) Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 06:55:00 - [57] - Quote Meee One wrote: Simple solution? PvE. Or a training mode that costs 10,000 isk,but rewards 1/2,2/3 SP. Endless clones on both sides. You can deploy in any of your preset fits for free. And leave/collect your SP anytime. As well as your K/D shown upon leaving. Can't be used for events of course. *possibly Randomized gamemodes selected every XX minutes of play. (to redeploy) Ever seen the first dust advertising videos... PvE is the main reason I started playing... It will never happen.
YUUKI TERUMI Carne Con Papas 137	Posted - 2015.10.08 07:27:00 - [58] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: To the OP. People wouldn't risk their proto/officer gear even half as much if they aren't squaded up ( other than Thales ect. ) prolly never officer gear solo. One or two people running good gear won't cause a stomp, squading in pubs is much more powerful. Most people will never know the feeling of seeing 12+ people from the same Corp opposing them in pubs... I saw it for years. The playerbase is to small to divide it further. Get rid of fire teams in pubs and people will be forced to play what they can afford. Just because some people want to go full lemming at the objective and don't care about strategy because they only run cheap gear dosnt mean we all want to play that way. This isn't call of duty **** costs isk. People like Dia Farron can change the entire match running officer. Even when they run solo Gal assault rof buff \0/
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 08:21:00 - [59] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME is under the impression that players in squads are a greater detriment to pub play than the performance disparity between new and veteran players. As you said, every other fps has this feature, yet none of the same extreme stomping at the same frequency as Dust. I don't know how he can ignore the numbers in this very thread and instead blame a tried and true mechanic. Ever seen sax's video " one squad 140 kills " yeah totally not a thing. What gear were they running? I have not seen most Dust videos as I started playing roughly 2 months ago. And providing a single anecdotal example doesn't serve to make a very good point. Remember, single examples usually serve as exceptions, not rules. If you can provide any data on your points, we could at least have an intelligent debate. Everything you bring up is anecdotal at best. 2 months and you'r complaining Jesus. I was complaining about proto stomps 2 years ago. I now have the experience to form an opinion. You have no idea how much more balanced it is now than then. Ever been Thales (or rail turret or missiled for that matter) sniped from 599m? I have. I doubt you even have all your core skills, one suit, one weapon, a sidearm, and one piece of equipment to max. 2 months and you even think for one second you know this game better than someone who has earned over 250 million sp solo? Your knowledge of the game is **, you don't know what the ** your talking about. I've tried to point out the real problem but your a moron. I may just delete all my low end fittings (3/4 of my fits) and build just proto and officer fits only just to spite you personally. You sound mad. The state of the game has nothing to do with the past. Its about the current state. Sorry your opinions are so underdeveloped after 150mil sp and two years later. Sounds like you need more education in real life. Thanks for your input though.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 08:23:00 - [60] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Meee One wrote: Simple solution? PvE. Or a training mode that costs 10,000 isk,but rewards 1/2,2/3 SP. Endless clones on both sides. You can deploy in any of your preset fits for free. And leave/collect your SP anytime. As well as your K/D shown upon leaving. Can't be used for events of course. *possibly Randomized gamemodes selected every XX minutes of play. (to redeploy) Ever seen the first dust advertising videos... PvE is the main reason I started playing... It will never happen. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Keep your fingers crossed for that PvE though! See ya!

Yummy Alcohol Chaotic War Lords 18	Posted - 2015.10.08 08:52:00 - [61] - Quote Everytime I die to someone with officer or proto gear when Im running basic or advanced I tell myself that is the only reason they killed me. How am I going to sleep at night when I start getting killed left and right from equal gear!?! Let the protos stay!! I can't face the fact that I'm not that good
rpastry Dead Man's Game 311	Posted - 2015.10.08 09:15:00 - [62] - Quote Tiered gear and skill development are two main factors in what got me hooked on this game. Plenty of other FPS games out there for those that demand a level playing field. I've played since 2012. Main runs proto alt runs apex. Both can be fun, both can be frustrating. Game's getting stale through lack of development (content/platform - props to the devs for acheiving what they have) and dwindling player base. Three years is a good run though considering. [Removed ASCII Art - CCP Logibro]
HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 11:01:00 - [63] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Meee One wrote: Simple solution? PvE. Or a training mode that costs 10,000 isk,but rewards 1/2,2/3 SP. Endless clones on both sides. You can deploy in any of your preset fits for free. And leave/collect your SP anytime. As well as your K/D shown upon leaving. Can't be used for events of course. *possibly Randomized gamemodes selected every XX minutes of play. (to redeploy) Ever seen the first dust advertising videos... PvE is the main reason I started playing... It will never happen. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Keep your fingers crossed for that PvE though! See ya! Was here long before you, il be here long after.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 11:15:00 - [64] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Meee One wrote: Simple solution? PvE. Or a training mode that costs 10,000 isk,but rewards 1/2,2/3 SP. Endless clones on both sides. You can deploy in any of your preset fits for free. And leave/collect your SP anytime. As well as your K/D shown upon leaving. Can't be used for events of course. *possibly Randomized gamemodes selected every XX minutes of play. (to redeploy) Ever seen the first dust advertising videos... PvE is the main reason I started playing... It will never happen. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Keep your fingers crossed for that PvE though! See ya! Was here long before you, il be here long after. Amazing as you bring nothing to the table. You're a blight by definition.
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 4	Posted - 2015.10.08 12:59:00 - [65] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Shaun Iwairo wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: One or two people running good gear won't cause a stomp, squading in pubs is much more powerful. I'm willing to concede I'm completely missing something here, but: Nearly every other fps has a 'squad' mechanic, yet very few of them suffer the frequency of pubstomping that Dust does. Other than the gear that squadded up mercs run, what makes squads in Dust so much more powerful? Communication and familiarity Hmmm good point if I've interpreted correctly. Other FPS squads are random in nature (right?), here when we talk about stomping, the stompers know each other, and may well be PC vets employing highly organised strategy on autopilot. This post has been liked by XxBlazikenxX
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 193	Posted - 2015.10.08 14:33:00 - [66] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: One or two people running good gear won't cause a stomp, squading in pubs is much more powerful. xavier zor wrote: a lot of people here know this feeling. keep your random sh*t talking out of serious threads. I'm willing to concede I'm completely missing something here, but: Nearly every other fps has a 'squad' mechanic, yet very few of them suffer the frequency of pubstomping that Dust does. Other than the gear that squadded up mercs run, what makes squads in Dust so much more powerful? Because any suit encountering a handful of randoms will still get melted. A squad however can choose to have a buffer tanked slayer and a logi with them. The tactical advantages of teamwork in this game are far more important than any individual fit. A squad of 100 million SP players should have almost every role covered. They become a highly flexible lawn mower for unsquaded players. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 193	Posted - 2015.10.08 14:39:00 - [67] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME is under the impression that players in squads are a greater detriment to pub play than the performance disparity between new and veteran players. As you said, every other fps has this feature, yet none of the same extreme stomping at the same frequency as Dust. I don't know how he can ignore the numbers in this very thread and instead blame a tried and true mechanic. Because you are looking at any single engagement as a strictly numerical relationship when it almost never is, and howdidhekillme is looking at a series of engagements or a whole match and seeing the larger effect that squad is having. Adv gear can tangle with proto, heck properly fitted standard suits can put up a fight. In any single engagement, where both players stand still and just dump non missing shots until one dies, proto will always win, but fights in dust rarely happen that way. What adv gear cannot overcome solo is the squad that keeps a third guy hanging around doing nothing but micro flanking while their back marker keeps the scans up . No squad mode before meta locking would be better. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
DEATH THE KlD Imperfect - Bastards 462	Posted - 2015.10.08 15:25:00 - [68] - Quote It's not okay but the playerbase is too small..I'm not waiting 5 minutes to find a silly pub CEO of Imperfect Bastards and NF
Alcina Nektaria KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 379	Posted - 2015.10.08 15:36:00 - [69] - Quote If you really double down and think about it, there are many factors that play into the imbalance of games. For one, there are the exploits in which higher tiered players can get put in a match vs lower tiered players just from having a low tier player as their squad leader. Another issue is that of Scotty randomly filling matches because there is such a huge divide between solo players vs squads. If we had a mechanic for solo players to queue into matches where there are only other solo players that would be a viable fix and also a means for actually testing the theory that "squads are too op" Toss in the next issue being that people don't usually run conventional suits in pubs. Lezbehonest....pubs are a breeding ground for testing which fits work vs which don't. Along with the point above, lets look into the fact that I can GUARANTEE that close to half of the player base don't know what a proper fit looks like for their racial class. Lets also take a look at the fact that people test other roles that may have piqued their interests and don't quite understand how the role is actually SUPPOSED to be played. Then there are people with absolutely no brain that don't understand you have to pay attention to what's going on around you and adapt to various situations. There are also people who have good gun game, and those who can't aim to save their lives and Auto Aim can't even help them. (Telling these players to give up or quit is not a solution, maybe we should be encouraging them to try another role such as uplink deployment, or speed hacking, or even just a transport role. Fly an ADS or drive an LAV around with a mobile CRU) Among many other reasons I won't continue to list, there is the fact that MANY don't understand tactics or how certain maps are supposed to be played. This has EVERYTHING to do with the way you approach the objective(s) to flanking, to uplink deployment (i hate you assholes who put uplinks super high on towers right above the enemy where the only way to get down is hopping down into a whole mass of red) The list honestly goes on and on, but what it comes down to is a need for compromise on both ends. Adding in a seperate solo mode and also the community stepping up to help the noobs out. I gave some fresh newbie a Spartan Assault BPO so that he could see a semi-decent fit on a Gal Assault, but also so that he could make some money and take all the risks he wanted with no penalty (but only to his KDR which is not even a relevant statistic) KEQ and ROFL. Diplomat. D4GG3R is my mom. Only REAL pancakes wear dresses.GÖÑ
TIGER SHARK1501 Savage Bullet RUST415 471	Posted - 2015.10.08 16:30:00 - [70] - Quote Add a mode with Tier lock. All the tryhards can rock basic gear if they wanna kill newberries.

HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 17:56:00 - [71] - Quote Press Attache wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME is under the impression that players in squads are a greater detriment to pub play than the performance disparity between new and veteran players. As you said, every other fps has this feature, yet none of the same extreme stomping at the same frequency as Dust. I don't know how he can ignore the numbers in this very thread and instead blame a tried and true mechanic. Because you are looking at any single engagement as a strictly numerical relationship when it almost never is, and howdidhekillme is looking at a series of engagements or a whole match and seeing the larger effect that squad is having. Adv gear can tangle with proto, heck properly fitted standard suits can put up a fight. In any single engagement, where both players stand still and just dump non missing shots until one dies, proto will always win, but fights in dust rarely happen that way. What adv gear cannot overcome solo is the squad that keeps a third guy hanging around doing nothing but micro flanking while their back marker keeps the scans up . No squad mode before meta locking would be better. Thanks press... The op is obsessed with a simple " the numbers say I win" mentality. This game has more to it than just numbers, take the recent nerf to strafe it wouldn't have been a thing if people hadn't been dancing around bullets.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 18:19:00 - [72] - Quote Press is a ******* moron and so are you. Go jerk off in his tank together.
Worthless Target Extra Padding 36	Posted - 2015.10.08 18:20:00 - [73] - Quote Yummy Alcohol wrote: Everytime I die to someone with officer or proto gear when Im running basic or advanced I tell myself that is the only reason they killed me. How am I going to sleep at night when I start getting killed left and right from equal gear!?! Let the protos stay!! I can't face the fact that I'm not that good Sure you can. you, and many others just like us must accept our roll as cannon fodder. Embrace the stomp
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 18:22:00 - [74] - Quote What kind of drugs are you guys using that leads you to believe that squads are more of a detriment that the performance disparity between suits? I mean get real you ******* assclowns, both your posts are now hidden as you bring nothing to the table besides your anecdotal butt dynos. STFU or provide data and facts.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 18:27:00 - [75] - Quote Press Attache wrote: Shaun Iwairo wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: One or two people running good gear won't cause a stomp, squading in pubs is much more powerful. xavier zor wrote: a lot of people here know this feeling. keep your random sht talking out of serious threads. I'm willing to concede I'm completely missing something here, but: Nearly every other fps has a 'squad' mechanic, yet very few of them suffer the frequency of pubstomping that Dust does. Other than the gear that squadded up mercs run, what makes squads in Dust so much more powerful? Because any suit encountering a handful of randoms will still get melted. A squad however can choose to have a buffer tanked slayer and a logi with them. The tactical advantages of teamwork in this game are far more important than any individual fit. A squad of 100 million SP players should have almost every role covered. They become a highly flexible lawn mower for unsquaded players. You are dumb as hell. Go play the ****** game before posting. You play FW and sit in a pro tank all game, then leave when the map doesn't suit you. Squads are in every single FPS. Coordinating will never end. Because you can't squad up in a lobby somehow means that players won't work together in pub matches? We have VC, I can ask anyone to go logi or heavy while I play a compliment role. You guys just don't want to admit you're the problem. Taking squads out will not stop protostomping. What's wrong with you guys? Are you that attached to your pro gear in pubs?
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 18:33:00 - [76] - Quote Alcina Nektaria wrote: If you really double down and think about it, there are many factors that play into the imbalance of games. For one, there are the exploits in which higher tiered players can get put in a match vs lower tiered players just from having a low tier player as their squad leader. Another issue is that of Scotty randomly filling matches because there is such a huge divide between solo players vs squads. If we had a mechanic for solo players to queue into matches where there are only other solo players that would be a viable fix and also a means for actually testing the theory that "squads are too op" Toss in the next issue being that people don't usually run conventional suits in pubs. Lezbehonest....pubs are a breeding ground for testing which fits work vs which don't. Along with the point above, lets look into the fact that I can GUARANTEE that close to half of the player base don't know what a proper fit looks like for their racial class. Lets also take a look at the fact that people test other roles that may have piqued their interests and don't quite understand how the role is actually SUPPOSED to be played. Then there are people with absolutely no brain that don't understand you have to pay attention to what's going on around you and adapt to various situations. There are also people who have good gun game, and those who can't aim to save their lives and Auto Aim can't even help them. (Telling these players to give up or quit is not a solution, maybe we should be encouraging them to try another role such as uplink deployment, or speed hacking, or even just a transport role. Fly an ADS or drive an LAV around with a mobile CRU) Among many other reasons I won't continue to list, there is the fact that MANY don't understand tactics or how certain maps are supposed to be played. This has EVERYTHING to do with the way you approach the objective(s) to flanking, to uplink deployment (i hate you assholes who put uplinks super high on towers right above the enemy where the only way to get down is hopping down into a whole mass of red) The list honestly goes on and on, but what it comes down to is a need for compromise on both ends. Adding in a seperate solo mode and also the community stepping up to help the noobs out. I gave some fresh newbie a Spartan Assault BPO so that he could see a semi-decent fit on a Gal Assault, but also so that he could make some money and take all the risks he wanted with no penalty (but only to his KDR which is not evenrelevant statistic) You're absolutely right on most points, except you can't really modify or balance the game around those factors. When on average, a new player has to land 90% more shots than a veteran, something is wrong. The disparity is too great and even veterans admit they can feel the gap in performance. This is the main cause of stomping, not squads. Take 4 people into a game with tactics and put me on the other team. If we are on similar MU, that squad will die. There are absolutely ways to counter squad tactics, but how do you counter the disparity performance when it averages the numbers we've posted?
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 19:06:00 - [77] - Quote Why does every FPS allow squads if they are the largest detriment to balanced play? YOU'RE WRONG. Get over it.
Bob Fleb The Warlords Legion 7	Posted - 2015.10.08 19:47:00 - [78] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Why does every FPS allow squads if they are the largest detriment to balanced play? YOU'RE WRONG. Get over it. I agree with you but chill man, chill. They want my blubber..... you can't have my blubber.
Alcina Nektaria KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 379	Posted - 2015.10.08 19:53:00 - [79] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: You're absolutely right on most points, except you can't really modify or balance the game around those factors. When on average, a new player has to land 90% more shots than a veteran, something is wrong. The disparity is too great and even veterans admit they can feel the gap in performance. This is the main cause of stomping, not squads. Take 4 people into a game with tactics and put me on the other team. If we are on similar MU, that squad will die. There are absolutely ways to counter squad tactics, but how do you counter the disparity performance when it averages the numbers we've posted? That was kind of the point I was getting at. There's a way to go about "fixing" it but it seems no one is on the same page about it. Which is why there should be a solo mode. The whole reason CCP reduced squad sizes was to fix the matchmaking process, but if we look at the solo players queuing in as well, it has just as much of a chance to throw off the matchmaking as the 6 man squads did. The absolute BEST CASE scenario i see for a fix on this subject is A. Add a Solo Queue B. Under "Other Contracts" list the current matches going on so that players can join to fill the battle instead of hoping that Scotty will fill all the matches himself. As for the stomping side of it, yes there should be some sort of Tier lock BUT it should be player chosen in squad settings. I realize this would probably take A LOT of work on CCP's part, but this is the community they have and if they want things to get better, if WE want things to get better then there needs to be some actual positive feedback and achievable ideas, not just rants and arguments about dropping squad based matches or solo players going to biomass because they don't want to work as a team or squad. It comes down to compromise. Edit: the points A and B go together it's not a choice between one or the other. Wasn't sure if I had made that clear. KEQ and ROFL. Diplomat. D4GG3R is my mom. Only REAL pancakes wear dresses.GÖÑ
HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 19:54:00 - [80] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Press is a ******* moron and so are you. Go jerk off in his tank together. We're to busy bending your mom like an accordion... How's her back?

Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 20:23:00 - [81] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: Press is a ******* moron and so are you. Go jerk off in his tank together. We're to busy bending your mom like an accordion... How's her back? Wut? Your posts are now hidden. Contrubute to the discussion or gtfo. Thanks.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 335	Posted - 2015.10.08 20:25:00 - [82] - Quote Bob Fleb wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: Why does every FPS allow squads if they are the largest detriment to balanced play? YOU'RE WRONG. Get over it. I agree with you but chill man, chill. It's like talking to a wall with these guys, then they insist on coming into threads with the idea that one YouTube video, setting all details aside, is proof that they are right. Guess that's what I get for thinking they had any shred of intelligence or logic. Don't argue with idiots because they drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 37	Posted - 2015.10.08 22:32:00 - [83] - Quote Chill out dudes. Everyone has their reasons for thinking what they think. I can see where the people that say squads contribute to pubstomping are coming from - If you know your mate is going to run proto then you're more likely to yourself. Apart from shared scans, any other advantages that squads give (communication, organizing roles, etc.) are not unique to Dust and so are unlikely to be a contributor to pubstomping. So if tiers were locked then squads in Dust would function as they do in every other fps and IMO wouldn't need changing/removing. Having said that, I do agree that a solo queue would give Scotty a better chance at balancing matches as far as MU goes.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 193	Posted - 2015.10.08 23:11:00 - [84] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: What kind of drugs are you guys using that leads you to believe that squads are more of a detriment that the performance disparity between suits? I mean get real you ******* assclowns, both your posts are now hidden as you bring nothing to the table besides your anecdotal butt dynos. STFU or provide data and facts. Because the disparity between proto and advanced is not as large as you make it out to be. If you can't run adv and turn a profit, then get good probably applies. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 339	Posted - 2015.10.09 08:27:00 - [85] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: Chill out dudes. Everyone has their reasons for thinking what they think. I can see where the people that say squads contribute to pubstomping are coming from - If you know your mate is going to run proto then you're more likely to yourself. Apart from shared scans, any other advantages that squads give (communication, organizing roles, etc.) are not unique to Dust and so are unlikely to be a contributor to pubstomping. So if tiers were locked then squads in Dust would function as they do in every other fps and IMO wouldn't need changing/removing. Having said that, I do agree that a solo queue would give Scotty a better chance at balancing matches as far as MU goes. You're right, I just get frustrated when people choose to ignore facts and data. Even if this is somewhat general, at least it's an effort to clarify the performance disparity. It's one thing to debate without metrics because they may not be available in every case, but here we have a benchmark to work with. Of course this isn't every encounter, but this is an example based on current implementations in the game. If we can find these averages using a limited example, it's not far off to reason that other examples will fall similarly in line. It's also not impossible to try and work this data out if you really want to make an argument against meta locks or tiers. Using available in game data, compare all factions, all suits and multiple popular load outs. The possible match ups to compute is vast, but not insurmountable. What Shaun has done is provide a basic example and I thank him very much for that. And if anyone is willing to work further to possibly provide all faction assault suit match ups, you'd be a saint. I'm on vacation in Hawaii, curious how Foxfour is working out as I am a Gallente loyalist... when I'm back I'll start running numbers. So, how is the hotfix?
Nirwanda Vaughns 1	Posted - 2015.10.09 12:05:00 - [86] - Quote some folk will say "but oh, a player who sucks will still suck in proto" blah blah blah. yes, a player who sucks will still struggle in proto against good players in adv/pro gear. but a new player who is an experienced FPS in a basic laodout will struggle vs a half decent player fully kitted in proto. i worked it out once and there was around 800hp difference between a full proto setup suit vs a std suit with mlt (no skills applied) just as you drop out the clone vat. whereas, a 100m vet vs a 1m noob in STD/MLT gear, the point difference is around 500-100 hp and damage difference is minimal. a good fps player can easily compensate against a small HP difference. When the playerbase was a little more diverse i propositioned meta level based on sec status of system battle takes place, now our numbers are limited i've propositioned 'Academy+' basically a gamemode where meta is locked at MLT/STD, LAVs only Amb/Dom game mode. a place where vets and noobs can go in together, get noobs used to the game before going into the shark infested big pool of normal pubs. and for most vets it'd be a nice place to go and 'relax best you can away from all the try hards. make the isk earned be calculated based on loyalty rank, lower loyalty rank, higher isk payout and SP gain (inline with current pub payouts, no higher) and lower sp gain and isk gain for higher vets so no farming of isk (except alts obvs) i think it'd relieve a lot of the stress that general pubs bring on due to proto tryhards at peak gaming times. pretty much everyone i know now barely plays in evenings, you can tell how the evebning is gonna go from the first 1 or 2 matches and we'll just log off and go play something more fun over weekend when it gets past about 8-9pm BST Please fix my C-II hitpoints!! Jesus and I love you :)
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 197	Posted - 2015.10.09 14:02:00 - [87] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: some folk will say "but oh, a player who sucks will still suck in proto" blah blah blah. yes, a player who sucks will still struggle in proto against good players in adv/pro gear. but a new player who is an experienced FPS in a basic laodout will struggle vs a half decent player fully kitted in proto. i worked it out once and there was around 800hp difference between a full proto setup suit vs a std suit with mlt (no skills applied) just as you drop out the clone vat. whereas, a 100m vet vs a 1m noob in STD/MLT gear, the point difference is around 500-100 hp and damage difference is minimal. a good fps player can easily compensate against a small HP difference. When the playerbase was a little more diverse i propositioned meta level based on sec status of system battle takes place, now our numbers are limited i've propositioned 'Academy+' basically a gamemode where meta is locked at MLT/STD, LAVs only Amb/Dom game mode. a place where vets and noobs can go in together, get noobs used to the game before going into the shark infested big pool of normal pubs. and for most vets it'd be a nice place to go and 'relax best you can away from all the try hards. make the isk earned be calculated based on loyalty rank, lower loyalty rank, higher isk payout and SP gain (inline with current pub payouts, no higher) and lower sp gain and isk gain for higher vets so no farming of isk (except alts obvs) i think it'd relieve a lot of the stress that general pubs bring on due to proto tryhards at peak gaming times. pretty much everyone i know now barely plays in evenings, you can tell how the evebning is gonna go from the first 1 or 2 matches and we'll just log off and go play something more fun over weekend when it gets past about 8-9pm BST There is not an 800 HP gap between full proto and std. Whenever you worked it out you were wrong. At 36 HP per shield extender and 65 HP per plate there are not enough slots for you to create an 800 HP gap. Even then you ignore that a suit running max eHP is taking the movement penalty from all those places making them much easier to hit, and also to avoid. This myth of proto tryhards makes no sense to me. Why are people so opposed to people using their best stuff to win? Do some of you think that going into a match with a budget is actually making the game more fun for you? Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 340	Posted - 2015.10.09 19:59:00 - [88] - Quote Press is so dense, he doesn't realize when players start playing they have to budget or they can't afford to play how they want. The only myth here is that you might be intelligent. But you're proving us all right about your level of comprehension.
Nirwanda Vaughns 1	Posted - 2015.10.09 20:19:00 - [89] - Quote Press Attache wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: some folk will say "but oh, a player who sucks will still suck in proto" blah blah blah. yes, a player who sucks will still struggle in proto against good players in adv/pro gear. but a new player who is an experienced FPS in a basic laodout will struggle vs a half decent player fully kitted in proto. i worked it out once and there was around 800hp difference between a full proto setup suit vs a std suit with mlt (no skills applied) just as you drop out the clone vat. whereas, a 100m vet vs a 1m noob in STD/MLT gear, the point difference is around 500-100 hp and damage difference is minimal. a good fps player can easily compensate against a small HP difference. When the playerbase was a little more diverse i propositioned meta level based on sec status of system battle takes place, now our numbers are limited i've propositioned 'Academy+' basically a gamemode where meta is locked at MLT/STD, LAVs only Amb/Dom game mode. a place where vets and noobs can go in together, get noobs used to the game before going into the shark infested big pool of normal pubs. and for most vets it'd be a nice place to go and 'relax best you can away from all the try hards. make the isk earned be calculated based on loyalty rank, lower loyalty rank, higher isk payout and SP gain (inline with current pub payouts, no higher) and lower sp gain and isk gain for higher vets so no farming of isk (except alts obvs) i think it'd relieve a lot of the stress that general pubs bring on due to proto tryhards at peak gaming times. pretty much everyone i know now barely plays in evenings, you can tell how the evebning is gonna go from the first 1 or 2 matches and we'll just log off and go play something more fun over weekend when it gets past about 8-9pm BST There is not an 800 HP gap between full proto and std. Whenever you worked it out you were wrong. At 36 HP per shield extender and 65 HP per plate there are not enough slots for you to create an 800 HP gap. Even then you ignore that a suit running max eHP is taking the movement penalty from all those places making them much easier to hit, and also to avoid. This myth of proto tryhards makes no sense to me. Why are people so opposed to people using their best stuff to win? Do some of you think that going into a match with a budget is actually making the game more fun for you? it was full proto vs full std so a std suit fit with all std tank modules and a proto suit of the same type with a full high end tank, it wasn't exaclty all proto but it was a suit that was built to have as many hp as possible same as the std. it was mainly the armour suits where the biggest difference and also back when STD suits had lower slots. a 3 low slot gal assault vs a 5 slot proto gall assault has a huge hp difference. things have changed slightly in recent patches but there is still a big difference. a new person doesn't have the fitting skills to get as much stuff on either so it will alwyas be like iceskating uphill. with such a low playerbase, even with the matchmaking the way it is, there is very little way of getting away from try hards unless you're in a squad with other noobs. having a seperate meta locked mode for noobs and vets allows things to be a little more balanced Please fix my C-II hitpoints!! Jesus and I love you :)
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 200	Posted - 2015.10.09 20:38:00 - [90] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Press is so dense, he doesn't realize when players start playing they have to budget or they can't afford to play how they want. The only myth here is that you might be intelligent. But you're proving us all right about your level of comprehension. I go full spend all the time, and play solo more than I PC, and certainly more often than I run FW. If you are not crap, running advanced in pubs is good enough, and if you are bad, the gear won't change it. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.

KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.10.09 20:45:00 - [91] - Quote Proto stomp is so yesterday, Officer Stomp is the thing. "Today I have been feeling mostly smug." KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 200	Posted - 2015.10.09 20:51:00 - [92] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: it was full proto vs full std so a std suit fit with all std tank modules and a proto suit of the same type with a full high end tank, it wasn't exaclty all proto but it was a suit that was built to have as many hp as possible same as the std. it was mainly the armour suits where the biggest difference and also back when STD suits had lower slots. a 3 low slot gal assault vs a 5 slot proto gall assault has a huge hp difference. things have changed slightly in recent patches but there is still a big difference. a new person doesn't have the fitting skills to get as much stuff on either so it will alwyas be like iceskating uphill. with such a low playerbase, even with the matchmaking the way it is, there is very little way of getting away from try hards unless you're in a squad with other noobs. having a seperate meta locked mode for noobs and vets allows things to be a little more balanced Oh, so your reference point about proto and standard balance was from before they gave standard suits a ton of slots. That is an irrelevant comparison. In the game that we are actually playing that 800 hp gap doesn't exist. What is a tryhard to you? Because the way you seem to be using it would imply that it is anyone who can afford to run better gear longer than you can. That is not a tryhard, just someone who is doing better at the fiscal side of the game. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
zDemoncake Horizons' Edge 1	Posted - 2015.10.09 21:17:00 - [93] - Quote Nerf my passive skills CEO of Horizons' Edge's mercenary division *My soul, your beats!* Enemy to many; equal to none.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 350	Posted - 2015.10.10 03:01:00 - [94] - Quote Press Attache wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: it was full proto vs full std so a std suit fit with all std tank modules and a proto suit of the same type with a full high end tank, it wasn't exaclty all proto but it was a suit that was built to have as many hp as possible same as the std. it was mainly the armour suits where the biggest difference and also back when STD suits had lower slots. a 3 low slot gal assault vs a 5 slot proto gall assault has a huge hp difference. things have changed slightly in recent patches but there is still a big difference. a new person doesn't have the fitting skills to get as much stuff on either so it will alwyas be like iceskating uphill. with such a low playerbase, even with the matchmaking the way it is, there is very little way of getting away from try hards unless you're in a squad with other noobs. having a seperate meta locked mode for noobs and vets allows things to be a little more balanced Oh, so your reference point about proto and standard balance was from before they gave standard suits a ton of slots. That is an irrelevant comparison. In the game that we are actually playing that 800 hp gap doesn't exist. What is a tryhard to you? Because the way you seem to be using it would imply that it is anyone who can afford to run better gear longer than you can. That is not a tryhard, just someone who is doing better at the fiscal side of the game. Do you not realize players don't start with access to proto? Most of these arguments against stomping aren't coming from poor vets who "can't afford to run proto". You're not better at the game, you've just been playing it longer.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 44	Posted - 2015.10.10 03:20:00 - [95] - Quote Press Attache wrote: Oh, so your reference point about proto and standard balance was from before they gave standard suits a ton of slots. That is an irrelevant comparison. In the game that we are actually playing that 800 hp gap doesn't exist. What is a tryhard to you? Because the way you seem to be using it would imply that it is anyone who can afford to run better gear longer than you can. That is not a tryhard, just someone who is doing better at the fiscal side of the game. I think that last bit is a bit dishonest. It's well known that a large chuck of the playerbase have piles of isk behind them from old (and to an extent, current) broken PC payout mechanics. Of course they should run whatever they can pay for, especially if it gives them an advantage. But to say they run it because they manage their isk well is a bit of a stretch.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 200	Posted - 2015.10.10 04:07:00 - [96] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Press Attache wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: it was full proto vs full std so a std suit fit with all std tank modules and a proto suit of the same type with a full high end tank, it wasn't exaclty all proto but it was a suit that was built to have as many hp as possible same as the std. it was mainly the armour suits where the biggest difference and also back when STD suits had lower slots. a 3 low slot gal assault vs a 5 slot proto gall assault has a huge hp difference. things have changed slightly in recent patches but there is still a big difference. a new person doesn't have the fitting skills to get as much stuff on either so it will alwyas be like iceskating uphill. with such a low playerbase, even with the matchmaking the way it is, there is very little way of getting away from try hards unless you're in a squad with other noobs. having a seperate meta locked mode for noobs and vets allows things to be a little more balanced Oh, so your reference point about proto and standard balance was from before they gave standard suits a ton of slots. That is an irrelevant comparison. In the game that we are actually playing that 800 hp gap doesn't exist. What is a tryhard to you? Because the way you seem to be using it would imply that it is anyone who can afford to run better gear longer than you can. That is not a tryhard, just someone who is doing better at the fiscal side of the game. Do you not realize players don't start with access to proto? Most of these arguments against stomping aren't coming from poor vets who "can't afford to run proto". You're not better at the game, you've just been playing it longer. And if you cap out three weeks in a row, proto suit. If you don't cap, but do play, within 6 weeks you will be at proto. Less if you run and stack boosters. A week for a proto gun. The power gap is built in to the game by design, it helps as an economic incentive to new players to buy Aurum to shorten the grind. You've been playing for a couple of months, you have(or should have) good core skills(level 4 at least) proto tank modules and a proto suit by now. If you don't have a proto suit, you should have at least a couple of proto weapons and advanced grenades. You sound like you are stuck in militia gear all the time, which can't be true, and the gap between advanced and proto is not so great as to be insurmountable. You can try and be condescending as much as you like, but I don't complain about proto, and squads, and tanks, and whatever will be next on the whine list. You probably have more ground SP than I do, and going on the ground isn't terrible for me. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Jonny D Buelle The Warlords Legion 2	Posted - 2015.10.10 04:12:00 - [97] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Press Attache wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: it was full proto vs full std so a std suit fit with all std tank modules and a proto suit of the same type with a full high end tank, it wasn't exaclty all proto but it was a suit that was built to have as many hp as possible same as the std. it was mainly the armour suits where the biggest difference and also back when STD suits had lower slots. a 3 low slot gal assault vs a 5 slot proto gall assault has a huge hp difference. things have changed slightly in recent patches but there is still a big difference. a new person doesn't have the fitting skills to get as much stuff on either so it will alwyas be like iceskating uphill. with such a low playerbase, even with the matchmaking the way it is, there is very little way of getting away from try hards unless you're in a squad with other noobs. having a seperate meta locked mode for noobs and vets allows things to be a little more balanced Oh, so your reference point about proto and standard balance was from before they gave standard suits a ton of slots. That is an irrelevant comparison. In the game that we are actually playing that 800 hp gap doesn't exist. What is a tryhard to you? Because the way you seem to be using it would imply that it is anyone who can afford to run better gear longer than you can. That is not a tryhard, just someone who is doing better at the fiscal side of the game. Do you not realize players don't start with access to proto? Most of these arguments against stomping aren't coming from poor vets who "can't afford to run proto". You're not better at the game, you've just been playing it longer. Daemonn, we have been over this. Press Attache is a troll and an idiot who thinks that only his way is the right way and everyone else is wrong. Just ignore him and move on. Director of T-W-L Keeper of the List Lord of Scrubs
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 200	Posted - 2015.10.10 04:17:00 - [98] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: Press Attache wrote: Oh, so your reference point about proto and standard balance was from before they gave standard suits a ton of slots. That is an irrelevant comparison. In the game that we are actually playing that 800 hp gap doesn't exist. What is a tryhard to you? Because the way you seem to be using it would imply that it is anyone who can afford to run better gear longer than you can. That is not a tryhard, just someone who is doing better at the fiscal side of the game. I think that last bit is a bit dishonest. It's well known that a large chuck of the playerbase have piles of isk behind them from old (and to an extent, current) broken PC payout mechanics. Of course they should run whatever they can pay for, especially if it gives them an advantage. But to say they run it because they manage their isk well is a bit of a stretch. Not a large chunk. Most of the people I see running proto in pubs were not even around for the locking. More people than that have made much larger fortunes by trading and gear farming. Even more than them are apex runners who can find a good cheap fit that is effective and stack bank. There will always be people with deeper wallets. There will always be a "tryhard" who cares more about winning than his wallet that match. But putting on a proto suit doesn't make you invincible, and people who just want to blame getting their ass kicked on the opponent having better gear, and then their solution is to ban better gear are acting like scrubs. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 200	Posted - 2015.10.10 04:19:00 - [99] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: Press Attache wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: it was full proto vs full std so a std suit fit with all std tank modules and a proto suit of the same type with a full high end tank, it wasn't exaclty all proto but it was a suit that was built to have as many hp as possible same as the std. it was mainly the armour suits where the biggest difference and also back when STD suits had lower slots. a 3 low slot gal assault vs a 5 slot proto gall assault has a huge hp difference. things have changed slightly in recent patches but there is still a big difference. a new person doesn't have the fitting skills to get as much stuff on either so it will alwyas be like iceskating uphill. with such a low playerbase, even with the matchmaking the way it is, there is very little way of getting away from try hards unless you're in a squad with other noobs. having a seperate meta locked mode for noobs and vets allows things to be a little more balanced Oh, so your reference point about proto and standard balance was from before they gave standard suits a ton of slots. That is an irrelevant comparison. In the game that we are actually playing that 800 hp gap doesn't exist. What is a tryhard to you? Because the way you seem to be using it would imply that it is anyone who can afford to run better gear longer than you can. That is not a tryhard, just someone who is doing better at the fiscal side of the game. Do you not realize players don't start with access to proto? Most of these arguments against stomping aren't coming from poor vets who "can't afford to run proto". You're not better at the game, you've just been playing it longer. Daemonn, we have been over this. Press Attache is a troll and an idiot who thinks that only his way is the right way and everyone else is wrong. Just ignore him and move on. On look, the logistics officer for an 8 man corp. All the titles, none of the responsibility. Saw you in a match today, your 5/0 with 265 WP must have been inspiring to your team. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Jonny D Buelle The Warlords Legion 2	Posted - 2015.10.10 04:24:00 - [100] - Quote Press Attache wrote: Jonny D Buelle wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: Press Attache wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: it was full proto vs full std so a std suit fit with all std tank modules and a proto suit of the same type with a full high end tank, it wasn't exaclty all proto but it was a suit that was built to have as many hp as possible same as the std. it was mainly the armour suits where the biggest difference and also back when STD suits had lower slots. a 3 low slot gal assault vs a 5 slot proto gall assault has a huge hp difference. things have changed slightly in recent patches but there is still a big difference. a new person doesn't have the fitting skills to get as much stuff on either so it will alwyas be like iceskating uphill. with such a low playerbase, even with the matchmaking the way it is, there is very little way of getting away from try hards unless you're in a squad with other noobs. having a seperate meta locked mode for noobs and vets allows things to be a little more balanced Oh, so your reference point about proto and standard balance was from before they gave standard suits a ton of slots. That is an irrelevant comparison. In the game that we are actually playing that 800 hp gap doesn't exist. What is a tryhard to you? Because the way you seem to be using it would imply that it is anyone who can afford to run better gear longer than you can. That is not a tryhard, just someone who is doing better at the fiscal side of the game. Do you not realize players don't start with access to proto? Most of these arguments against stomping aren't coming from poor vets who "can't afford to run proto". You're not better at the game, you've just been playing it longer. Daemonn, we have been over this. Press Attache is a troll and an idiot who thinks that only his way is the right way and everyone else is wrong. Just ignore him and move on. On look, the logistics officer for an 8 man corp. All the titles, none of the responsibility. Saw you in a match today, your 5/0 with 265 WP must have been inspiring to your team. Well, I am the Lord of Scrubs, what's your excuse? Director of T-W-L Keeper of the List Lord of Scrubs

Vicious Minotaur 3	Posted - 2015.10.10 04:44:00 - [101] - Quote ???? wrote: The power gap is built in to the game by design, it helps as an economic incentive to new players to buy Aurum to shorten the grind. I'd just like to point out that: 1) Rattati has been working on excising the "power gap" from the game (slot normalization, possible power core in the future) 2) EVE has been engaging in tiericide to lessen the "power gap" (or so I've been led to believe) 3) DUSTs "power gap" was implemented by incompetent developers that are no longer working on DUST because they were bad 4) This pace is shltpost central Carry on engaging in uncivil discourse. Viscous Minotaur Blood is more vicious than water.
Jonny D Buelle The Warlords Legion 2	Posted - 2015.10.10 04:47:00 - [102] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: ???? wrote: The power gap is built in to the game by design, it helps as an economic incentive to new players to buy Aurum to shorten the grind. I'd just like to point out that: 1) Rattati has been working on excising the "power gap" from the game (slot normalization, possible power core in the future) 2) EVE has been engaging in tiericide to lessen the "power gap" (or so I've been led to believe) 3) DUSTs "power gap" was implemented by incompetent developers that are no longer working on DUST because they were bad 4) This pace is shltpost central Carry on engaging in uncivil discourse. Look he's showing logic and reasoning, GET HIM! Director of T-W-L Keeper of the List Lord of Scrubs
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 44	Posted - 2015.10.10 05:01:00 - [103] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: ???? wrote: The power gap is built in to the game by design, it helps as an economic incentive to new players to buy Aurum to shorten the grind. I'd just like to point out that: 1) Rattati has been working on excising the "power gap" from the game (slot normalization, possible power core in the future) 2) EVE has been engaging in tiericide to lessen the "power gap" (or so I've been led to believe) 3) DUSTs "power gap" was implemented by incompetent developers that are no longer working on DUST because they were bad 4) This pace is shltpost central Carry on engaging in uncivil discourse. On no. 2, Eve's tiericide is almost complete. The main philosophy behind doing it was that the increasing power of tiered ships gave a false choice, everyone would only run the highest tier and the time spent not being able to run the highest tier was spent not running anything at all - players knew they simply couldn't be competitive. Also interesting to note is the isk difference between the bottom and top tier was only around 30% for ships. If you take that same philosophy and apply it to Dust, then some sort of tiericide is more than appropriate.
maybe deadcatz TRUE TEA BAGGERS Smart Deploy 1	Posted - 2015.10.10 05:05:00 - [104] - Quote Potato. Ha! You can't kill me! I'm already dead!
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 350	Posted - 2015.10.10 06:06:00 - [105] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: ???? wrote: The power gap is built in to the game by design, it helps as an economic incentive to new players to buy Aurum to shorten the grind. I'd just like to point out that: 1) Rattati has been working on excising the "power gap" from the game (slot normalization, possible power core in the future) 2) EVE has been engaging in tiericide to lessen the "power gap" (or so I've been led to believe) 3) DUSTs "power gap" was implemented by incompetent developers that are no longer working on DUST because they were bad 4) This pace is shltpost central Carry on engaging in uncivil discourse. I'd let you ram me with your horns if I could. You're dead on, except that we tried to keep it civil until the trolls arrived. Their posts are hidden and I welcome CIVIL discourse to continue, even if I lost my cool for a minute. So we have solo queue, SP tiers, MU tiers and normalizing of passive bonuses. Solo queue is probably the easiest to implement. Changing passive bonuses touches too many moving pieces to consider it as a quick fix. Tier locking is kind of in the middle, I'm no programmer so I can't speak to those elements. It does seem like a decent middle of the road fix at this point compared to other options.
First Prophet Nos Nothi 4	Posted - 2015.10.10 06:12:00 - [106] - Quote chill penguin wrote: xavier zor wrote: PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote: KGB Sleep wrote: HTFU cheapskates Don't tell me how to live my life. HTFU You definitely need a huge dose of HTFU. More like STFU and GTFO. I'm a cheater
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 354	Posted - 2015.10.11 08:45:00 - [107] - Quote Can't wait to try the AR since the hotfix. I hear the wolf cries and can't wait to validate them!
Summa Militum Art.of.Death 1	Posted - 2015.10.11 09:05:00 - [108] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Can't wait to try the AR since the hotfix. I hear the wolf cries and can't wait to validate them! You haven't tried it yet? It's awesome. At range it is completely useless but up close it is beastly.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 354	Posted - 2015.10.11 11:02:00 - [109] - Quote Summa Militum wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: Can't wait to try the AR since the hotfix. I hear the wolf cries and can't wait to validate them! You haven't tried it yet? It's awesome. At range it is completely useless but up close it is beastly. I'm on vacation in Hawaii until tomorrow. Just met a military C-130 pI lot who offered to take us on the plane and show us the attack helicopters. Will lost pics tomorow!
DiablosMajora 334	Posted - 2015.10.11 11:52:00 - [110] - Quote Oooh-wee Sounds to me like either squad or solo gameplay needs to be encouraged through actual game mechanics. Squad or solo-based equipment (uplinks, hives, etc) might be a good start Prepare your angus

Summa Militum Art.of.Death 1	Posted - 2015.10.11 15:25:00 - [111] - Quote DiablosMajora wrote: Oooh-wee Sounds to me like either squad or solo gameplay needs to be encouraged through actual game mechanics. Squad or solo-based equipment (uplinks, hives, etc) might be a good start That is not a good idea. People need to learn to work with the team they are given which consists of more people than just yourself or the number of people in your squad.
Genral69 death T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 815	Posted - 2015.10.11 15:31:00 - [112] - Quote Terrible idea, I did not skill up on my suit to only have the bonus I have now just on my proto suit . https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=213777&find=unread
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 304	Posted - 2015.10.11 17:52:00 - [113] - Quote DEATH THE KlD wrote: It's not okay but the playerbase is too small..I'm not waiting 5 minutes to find a silly pub Then don't play if it comes to that. I'd rather have the new players stay than tired old vets who can't handle queue times. The game needs them a lot more.
Bradric Banewolf Titans of Phoenix Damage LLC 1	Posted - 2015.10.11 22:03:00 - [114] - Quote Pro stompers don't care about the community. They care about themselves. Also, they're are players that squad up and step up to the challenge against pro stompers. I do it all the time with a strong squad. Those stompers hate me, or any player with the backbone to fight back in equal gear. They claim they want new players, and want the game to grow. In reality they don't want a challenge. They just want more targets, and shorter Queues lol! That's why alot of them run mods. They're not actually that good. If they were they wouldn't mod. It's really quite simple. What's broken in this game more than proto stomping is the lack of team work! Before complaining about stomps get in squad ffs! You guys cry about this solo mode bs because you lack teamwork and tactics. You don't want to think or slow down enough to work together. You should see some of these "PC" teams now lol! Guys substituting tactics and teamwork for mods and glitches lol! I call it the domination syndrome! If anything, every mode should have friendly fire! I mean just the other day I was playing a PC where I was thankful I was Gallente for my rep bonus lol! I had pubstars leaping around with Mass drivers and Bons shotguns smh. I spent more time running away from undisciplined panic fire than I did the enemy lol ... P.F.T.C. ... CCP, every noobs isn't ready for every weapon. There should be a certain level of tactical play reached before you can unlock bon's, core Nade, and MD's lol! Js The playerbase lacks tactics and control, especially in PC. I got it, guys have mods and use glitches, but it doesn't make them unstoppable. I believe it causes lag, but all these overly biased tech wannabes keep claiming it's all CCP's fault lol! shrugs All things equal, if they didn't use mods alot of you will still lose because you never work together in the 1st darn place?! You run pubs all day, mostly dom, then squad up 16 deep, tell dumbss jokes, make stupid racial comments, and lose horribly?! Promptly after getting completely redlined you return to dom to make yourself feel better by camping a roof with a MD lol! While you're complaining about guys who proto stomp, you've failed to realized your true problem. A serious lack of communication! I've been running with friends, conversing, and helping some newer players with fits and tactics in my channel "fighthouse". Anyone can join and chit chat. Everyone is welcome! All I ask is keep the topics on the game, and the hate to a minimum. For vets who truly want to help new players, or players looking for solid advice. The chat isn't password protected, and is open to anyone. In the last couple of days we've discussed tons of tactics, dropsuits, and vehicles. Helping me, or really me helping him, is Tread loudly 2 and a few others dropping in and out. We just discuss tactics and run squad. Talk about all sorts of stuff, and I've found out that alot of players just don't know tons! To any new players out there... READ THE STATS! Look if you guys are looking for an easy game go play COD.... or play dom?! If you want to get into some challenging fights learn to work as a team, and play FW and PC. All I ask is you don't take away the game the rest of us love because you're too lazy to read, and too socially awkward to squad. Now I know the modding is a nuisance, believe me, but honestly you guys allow it more than CCP! Just don't play with or against them. shrugs* Guys complain about guys leaving battle, but honestly I don't blame them sometimes. I'm not playing repeated matches against kaizuka sniper lol! Not gone happen. He's gotta log off at some point, and dust isn't my job. When he's gone or bored of waiting for someone to cheat, he'll leave. shrugs While we wait for CCP to realize the playerbase is dwindling, let's help mitigate the bs. It may take CCP awhile to realize the community is against such activity. It took them forever to figure out that the community actually wanted to keep this game alive lol! So bare with them on the issue. In the meantime just know that some poor saps in this game have been tricked, like black people and nikes, into believing KD is more than just a number on the TV screen lol! Let em have it I say! If you want the game to be better than help out, and stop complaining just to complain. "Anybody order chaos?"
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 355	Posted - 2015.10.12 10:33:00 - [115] - Quote Bradric Banewolf wrote: Pro stompers don't care about the community. They care about themselves. Also, they're are players that squad up and step up to the challenge against pro stompers. I do it all the time with a strong squad. Those stompers hate me, or any player with the backbone to fight back in equal gear. They claim they want new players, and want the game to grow. In reality they don't want a challenge. They just want more targets, and shorter Queues lol! That's why alot of them run mods. They're not actually that good. If they were they wouldn't mod. It's really quite simple. What's broken in this game more than proto stomping is the lack of team work! Before complaining about stomps get in squad ffs! You guys cry about this solo mode bs because you lack teamwork and tactics. You don't want to think or slow down enough to work together. You should see some of these "PC" teams now lol! Guys substituting tactics and teamwork for mods and glitches lol! I call it the domination syndrome! If anything, every mode should have friendly fire! I mean just the other day I was playing a PC where I was thankful I was Gallente for my rep bonus lol! I had pubstars leaping around with Mass drivers and Bons shotguns smh. I spent more time running away from undisciplined panic fire than I did the enemy lol ... P.F.T.C. ... CCP, every noobs isn't ready for every weapon. There should be a certain level of tactical play reached before you can unlock bon's, core Nade, and MD's lol! Js The playerbase lacks tactics and control, especially in PC. I got it, guys have mods and use glitches, but it doesn't make them unstoppable. I believe it causes lag, but all these overly biased tech wannabes keep claiming it's all CCP's fault lol! shrugs All things equal, if they didn't use mods alot of you will still lose because you never work together in the 1st darn place?! You run pubs all day, mostly dom, then squad up 16 deep, tell dumbss jokes, make stupid racial comments, and lose horribly?! Promptly after getting completely redlined you return to dom to make yourself feel better by camping a roof with a MD lol! While you're complaining about guys who proto stomp, you've failed to realized your true problem. A serious lack of communication! I've been running with friends, conversing, and helping some newer players with fits and tactics in my channel "fighthouse". Anyone can join and chit chat. Everyone is welcome! All I ask is keep the topics on the game, and the hate to a minimum. For vets who truly want to help new players, or players looking for solid advice. The chat isn't password protected, and is open to anyone. In the last couple of days we've discussed tons of tactics, dropsuits, and vehicles. Helping me, or really me helping him, is Tread loudly 2 and a few others dropping in and out. We just discuss tactics and run squad. Talk about all sorts of stuff, and I've found out that alot of players just don't know tons! To any new players out there... READ THE STATS! Look if you guys are looking for an easy game go play COD.... or play dom?! If you want to get into some challenging fights learn to work as a team, and play FW and PC. All I ask is you don't take away the game the rest of us love because you're too lazy to read, and too socially awkward to squad. Now I know the modding is a nuisance, believe me, but honestly you guys allow it more than CCP! Just don't play with or against them. shrugs* Guys complain about guys leaving battle, but honestly I don't blame them sometimes. I'm not playing repeated matches against kaizuka sniper lol! Not gone happen. He's gotta log off at some point, and dust isn't my job. When he's gone or bored of waiting for someone to cheat, he'll leave. shrugs While we wait for CCP to realize the playerbase is dwindling, let's help mitigate the bs. It may take CCP awhile to realize the community is against such activity. It took them forever to figure out that the community actually wanted to keep this game alive lol! So bare with them on the issue. In the meantime just know that some poor saps in this game have been tricked, like black people and nikes, into believing KD is more than just a number on the TV screen lol! Let em have it I say! If you want the game to be better than help out, and stop complaining just to complain. While I agree with most of what you've said, I feel your point on communication and squads is moot. A vet team, in better gear (not just proto, but adv. / proto mix) using the same level of communication and squad tactics as you propose noobs should use, which would mean they would win by default unless all the new players were more skilled than them. While possible, that's why they are called noobs and vets, labels that demonstrate the experience gap between them. Again, while it does not always directly translate in every encounter because of general gun game skills, the hp and dmg advantage combined with similar level of teamwork and communication means the vets will win unless they all have worse gun game. Outside of that I feel you've brought up some very valid points.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 200	Posted - 2015.10.12 13:48:00 - [116] - Quote So now its not only proto gear, but advanced as well? What comes next? Pretty sure you would be pushing for a starter fit only mode until you realized that someone with all their core skills to 5 would have a little bit more hp and suddenly that would invalidate you even trying. That you equate better gear with a certain defeat is a sign you are defeated before the match has even begun. They could roll in militia and you would still be fighting them as if they were an officer fit squad. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
LOL KILLZ LulKlz 397	Posted - 2015.10.12 14:33:00 - [117] - Quote I have an AK.O Assault and Commando. Proto stomps are a problem. I don't partake in stomps but they rampant. I have 34 million SP and I can't stand a stomp. Here is a solution. Each game mode will have a max level of equipment that you can use in each mode. Ambush-MLT ans STD equip only Acquisition-ADV,STD,MLT ONLY Dom-Proto,ADV,STD,MLT only Skirmish,FW,PC- Anything goes \0/
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 3	Posted - 2015.10.18 12:57:00 - [118] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Press Attache wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME is under the impression that players in squads are a greater detriment to pub play than the performance disparity between new and veteran players. As you said, every other fps has this feature, yet none of the same extreme stomping at the same frequency as Dust. I don't know how he can ignore the numbers in this very thread and instead blame a tried and true mechanic. Because you are looking at any single engagement as a strictly numerical relationship when it almost never is, and howdidhekillme is looking at a series of engagements or a whole match and seeing the larger effect that squad is having. Adv gear can tangle with proto, heck properly fitted standard suits can put up a fight. In any single engagement, where both players stand still and just dump non missing shots until one dies, proto will always win, but fights in dust rarely happen that way. What adv gear cannot overcome solo is the squad that keeps a third guy hanging around doing nothing but micro flanking while their back marker keeps the scans up . No squad mode before meta locking would be better. Thanks press... The op is obsessed with a simple " the numbers say I win" mentality. This game has more to it than just numbers, take the recent nerf to strafe it wouldn't have been a thing if people hadn't been dancing around bullets. Posting in agreement. As a vet who runs solo in STD gear and goes looking for fights with the officer stomp squads, gear and passive skills are not driving variable in pubstomps. If i had to rank the pubstomp factors by importance i'd say shared scans, experienced players and tactics honed & polished in PC. Passive sp and gear/ISK make a difference for sure, but they are not the variables that drive the pubstomp dynamic. We had these arguments/discussions three years ago, it takes a while to see past the numbers to what's really going on in pubs. PSN: RationalSpark
Aeon Amadi 13	Posted - 2015.10.18 13:14:00 - [119] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: That's natural dichotomy. Every game always has that and always will. Some players are inherently better than others. Except we don't balance games around that concept, we try and normalize what the players have access to so that the better players, even when stacked don't near instant kill people. Two players with the same gear, one sucks and one wrecks - the bad player needs to take efforts to improve his game. This is FAIR. Two players in different gear who both wreck, and one loses 9/10 times because of an hp and damage advantage, isn't fair. Can't balance someone's skill, but we can balance the way you gain advantages over other players through equipment. Pretty much nailed it. Which is why I am as passionate about the in-game economy as I am. I dislike that players have enormous wealths of ISK and I feel that a lot of problems stem from passive generation (PC farming, Warbarge modules) and exempted generation (BPOs, APEX BPOs). A lot of the time I hear these arguments that skill > gear but no-one ever mentions what happens when you have skill AND gear or when a player has low skill and low gear. How do you balance that? IMO, tiercide is something we desperately need even still but something we can never get because of past sins. There shouldn't be this whole MLT/STD/ADV/Proto/Officer thing... but because we offered players BPOs and APEXs, we're screwed into having it. We can't get away from it without basically invalidating the real-life money players have spent. We also can't strip players of their enormous ISK wallets. And because of that players will -always- have some form of mechanical advantage over others. Either because they paid real money and now never have to spend ISK again or because they were around for PC ISK farming and will never be able to spend all of what they have. They'll always be exempted from having to pay ISK and can use the ISK they save en masse to fund powerful gear. It's frustrating as hell. A new player coming into this game has neither of these advantages and must rely -EXCLUSIVELY- on their own player skill in order to just scrape by and survive. I feel like there's nothing we can do about it because people want to retain their real money investments and want to keep the isk they -coughs- "earned". What's worse is that when we port - if we port - we'll likely have to carry these sins over and introduce them to a whole new player base. It's going to leave a pretty bitter first impression and I don't think it's going to go over well in the reviews and feedback. But yanno. People want their "I Win" button. Game health be damned. Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog Skype: nomistrav
Thor Odinson42 Ancient Exiles. Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 7	Posted - 2015.10.18 13:43:00 - [120] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: ???? wrote: The power gap is built in to the game by design, it helps as an economic incentive to new players to buy Aurum to shorten the grind. I'd just like to point out that: 1) Rattati has been working on excising the "power gap" from the game (slot normalization, possible power core in the future) 2) EVE has been engaging in tiericide to lessen the "power gap" (or so I've been led to believe) 3) DUSTs "power gap" was implemented by incompetent developers that are no longer working on DUST because they were bad 4) This pace is shltpost central Carry on engaging in uncivil discourse. On no. 2, Eve's tiericide is almost complete. The main philosophy behind doing it was that the increasing power of tiered ships gave a false choice, everyone would only run the highest tier and the time spent not being able to run the highest tier was spent not running anything at all - players knew they simply couldn't be competitive. Also interesting to note is the isk difference between the bottom and top tier was only around 30% for ships. If you take that same philosophy and apply it to Dust, then some sort of tiericide is more than appropriate. I'm not sure who told you that about the difference between the bottom and top tiers but the difference between a T1 and a T2 frigate can be 800,000K to 25,000,000 mil. "Lonewolfing is hard because everyone is lonewolfing." -Captain Obvious

Thor Odinson42 Ancient Exiles. Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 7	Posted - 2015.10.18 13:45:00 - [121] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: That's natural dichotomy. Every game always has that and always will. Some players are inherently better than others. Except we don't balance games around that concept, we try and normalize what the players have access to so that the better players, even when stacked don't near instant kill people. Two players with the same gear, one sucks and one wrecks - the bad player needs to take efforts to improve his game. This is FAIR. Two players in different gear who both wreck, and one loses 9/10 times because of an hp and damage advantage, isn't fair. Can't balance someone's skill, but we can balance the way you gain advantages over other players through equipment. Pretty much nailed it. Which is why I am as passionate about the in-game economy as I am. I dislike that players have enormous wealths of ISK and I feel that a lot of problems stem from passive generation (PC farming, Warbarge modules) and exempted generation (BPOs, APEX BPOs). A lot of the time I hear these arguments that skill > gear but no-one ever mentions what happens when you have skill AND gear or when a player has low skill and low gear. How do you balance that? IMO, tiercide is something we desperately need even still but something we can never get because of past sins. There shouldn't be this whole MLT/STD/ADV/Proto/Officer thing... but because we offered players BPOs and APEXs, we're screwed into having it. We can't get away from it without basically invalidating the real-life money players have spent. We also can't strip players of their enormous ISK wallets. And because of that players will -always- have some form of mechanical advantage over others. Either because they paid real money and now never have to spend ISK again or because they were around for PC ISK farming and will never be able to spend all of what they have. They'll always be exempted from having to pay ISK and can use the ISK they save en masse to fund powerful gear. It's frustrating as hell. A new player coming into this game has neither of these advantages and must rely -EXCLUSIVELY- on their own player skill in order to just scrape by and survive. I feel like there's nothing we can do about it because people want to retain their real money investments and want to keep the isk they -coughs- "earned". What's worse is that when we port - if we port - we'll likely have to carry these sins over and introduce them to a whole new player base. It's going to leave a pretty bitter first impression and I don't think it's going to go over well in the reviews and feedback. But yanno. People want their "I Win" button. Game health be damned. Good job playerbase. Soraya 2.0 only worse. Let's make Dust only appeal to people who hate themselves and want fun to come in the form of misery and grinding. And let's be clear kids. This guy does not play Dust. He has no idea how these things are affecting gameplay aside from a spreadsheet shared with him by CCP. Honestly can you imagine how hard it would be for most of this playerbase if the only thing they could do for ISK generation was militia gear in pub matches? Oh yeah, we saw that for 2.5 years. It was clear for a long time that the only people that could afford to step up their gear were players willing to spend lots of AUR or had ridiculous KDRs, now that that's not the case some dude who doesn't even play Dust wants to take it all away. "Lonewolfing is hard because everyone is lonewolfing." -Captain Obvious
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 261	Posted - 2015.10.18 13:49:00 - [122] - Quote LOL KILLZ wrote: I have an AK.O Assault and Commando. Proto stomps are a problem. I don't partake in stomps but they rampant. I have 34 million SP and I can't stand a stomp. Here is a solution. Each game mode will have a max level of equipment that you can use in each mode. Ambush-MLT ans STD equip only Acquisition-ADV,STD,MLT ONLY Dom-Proto,ADV,STD,MLT only Skirmish,FW,PC- Anything goes So you have proto but people in proto gear are automatic losses for you? How does that work? Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Lost Apollo Moose Knuckle Pros 149	Posted - 2015.10.18 23:15:00 - [123] - Quote Press Attache wrote: LOL KILLZ wrote: I have an AK.O Assault and Commando. Proto stomps are a problem. I don't partake in stomps but they rampant. I have 34 million SP and I can't stand a stomp. Here is a solution. Each game mode will have a max level of equipment that you can use in each mode. Ambush-MLT ans STD equip only Acquisition-ADV,STD,MLT ONLY Dom-Proto,ADV,STD,MLT only Skirmish,FW,PC- Anything goes So you have proto but people in proto gear are automatic losses for you? How does that work? You missed the point. I agree with Killz. I have assault ck.o and logi ck.o but I won't run said proto in a pub. There is no need too. If stompers are in the battle, proto isn't a good idea cuz its rarely 1v1. Stompers are cowards, honestly. I guess they need a fix to all the butthurt they receive in fw and pc. My armor is weak, but my shields are relentless. State 'Rasetsu' Assault Born - April 1, 2013
Dergle Port 514 127	Posted - 2015.10.18 23:54:00 - [124] - Quote Why do I always run proto... Because I have too much ISK. It was nearly a year ago that I started using only proto to try n run out of ISK.... I just keep making a profit... Also partly because I'm skilled into so many things I don't have room for many non proto fits... Ignore your instincts at your peril.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.10.22 08:47:00 - [125] - Quote This isn't even taking into account that an assault suit has 100 extra base hp over a medium suit, which a new player would likely use.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 431	Posted - 2015.10.22 16:45:00 - [126] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: That's natural dichotomy. Every game always has that and always will. Some players are inherently better than others. Except we don't balance games around that concept, we try and normalize what the players have access to so that the better players, even when stacked don't near instant kill people. Two players with the same gear, one sucks and one wrecks - the bad player needs to take efforts to improve his game. This is FAIR. Two players in different gear who both wreck, and one loses 9/10 times because of an hp and damage advantage, isn't fair. Can't balance someone's skill, but we can balance the way you gain advantages over other players through equipment. Pretty much nailed it. Which is why I am as passionate about the in-game economy as I am. I dislike that players have enormous wealths of ISK and I feel that a lot of problems stem from passive generation (PC farming, Warbarge modules) and exempted generation (BPOs, APEX BPOs). A lot of the time I hear these arguments that skill > gear but no-one ever mentions what happens when you have skill AND gear or when a player has low skill and low gear. How do you balance that? IMO, tiercide is something we desperately need even still but something we can never get because of past sins. There shouldn't be this whole MLT/STD/ADV/Proto/Officer thing... but because we offered players BPOs and APEXs, we're screwed into having it. We can't get away from it without basically invalidating the real-life money players have spent. We also can't strip players of their enormous ISK wallets. And because of that players will -always- have some form of mechanical advantage over others. Either because they paid real money and now never have to spend ISK again or because they were around for PC ISK farming and will never be able to spend all of what they have. They'll always be exempted from having to pay ISK and can use the ISK they save en masse to fund powerful gear. It's frustrating as hell. A new player coming into this game has neither of these advantages and must rely -EXCLUSIVELY- on their own player skill in order to just scrape by and survive. I feel like there's nothing we can do about it because people want to retain their real money investments and want to keep the isk they -coughs- "earned". What's worse is that when we port - if we port - we'll likely have to carry these sins over and introduce them to a whole new player base. It's going to leave a pretty bitter first impression and I don't think it's going to go over well in the reviews and feedback. But yanno. People want their "I Win" button. Game health be damned. Good job playerbase. Soraya 2.0 only worse. Let's make Dust only appeal to people who hate themselves and want fun to come in the form of misery and grinding. And let's be clear kids. This guy does not play Dust. He has no idea how these things are affecting gameplay aside from a spreadsheet shared with him by CCP. Honestly can you imagine how hard it would be for most of this playerbase if the only thing they could do for ISK generation was militia gear in pub matches? Oh yeah, we saw that for 2.5 years. It was clear for a long time that the only people that could afford to step up their gear were players willing to spend lots of AUR or had ridiculous KDRs, now that that's not the case some dude who doesn't even play Dust wants to take it all away. So what is your solution then? I also don't think anyone wants everyone running around in militia gear, but the performance disparity between min and max level kit is egregious.
Sequal's Back Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.10.23 12:05:00 - [127] - Quote Isn't grinding to get a better gear and compete with other players the whole goal in DUST ????? Yes a newberry with no SP or skills will get rekt. But we all got rekt (and still are sometimes), but we kept playing and we grinded more SP to become a "vet". Dust would've been a really bad call of duty if the difference you get by grinding would've been less than what you're saying. That's the RPG part of dust and what makes it different than any other FPS. Bring your daughter... TO THE SLAUGHTER ! - Sequal Rise
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 5	Posted - 2015.10.23 12:15:00 - [128] - Quote Sequal's Back wrote: Answering to the original post : Isn't grinding to get a better gear and compete with other players the whole goal in DUST ????? Isn't ISK supposed to be part of the balance when it comes to competing? When I'm not playing DUST, I farm
DiablosMajora 344	Posted - 2015.10.23 12:23:00 - [129] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: That's natural dichotomy. Every game always has that and always will. Some players are inherently better than others. Except we don't balance games around that concept, we try and normalize what the players have access to so that the better players, even when stacked don't near instant kill people. Two players with the same gear, one sucks and one wrecks - the bad player needs to take efforts to improve his game. This is FAIR. Two players in different gear who both wreck, and one loses 9/10 times because of an hp and damage advantage, isn't fair. Can't balance someone's skill, but we can balance the way you gain advantages over other players through equipment. Pretty much nailed it. Which is why I am as passionate about the in-game economy as I am. I dislike that players have enormous wealths of ISK and I feel that a lot of problems stem from passive generation (PC farming, Warbarge modules) and exempted generation (BPOs, APEX BPOs). A lot of the time I hear these arguments that skill > gear but no-one ever mentions what happens when you have skill AND gear or when a player has low skill and low gear. How do you balance that? IMO, tiercide is something we desperately need even still but something we can never get because of past sins. There shouldn't be this whole MLT/STD/ADV/Proto/Officer thing... but because we offered players BPOs and APEXs, we're screwed into having it. We can't get away from it without basically invalidating the real-life money players have spent. We also can't strip players of their enormous ISK wallets. And because of that players will -always- have some form of mechanical advantage over others. Either because they paid real money and now never have to spend ISK again or because they were around for PC ISK farming and will never be able to spend all of what they have. They'll always be exempted from having to pay ISK and can use the ISK they save en masse to fund powerful gear. It's frustrating as hell. A new player coming into this game has neither of these advantages and must rely -EXCLUSIVELY- on their own player skill in order to just scrape by and survive. I feel like there's nothing we can do about it because people want to retain their real money investments and want to keep the isk they -coughs- "earned". What's worse is that when we port - if we port - we'll likely have to carry these sins over and introduce them to a whole new player base. It's going to leave a pretty bitter first impression and I don't think it's going to go over well in the reviews and feedback. But yanno. People want their "I Win" button. Game health be damned. Why not take babby steps into fixing that MLT/STD/ADV/Proto/Officer disparity like is currently being done with Officer gear? Have mechanics in place to drain the current supply SLOWLY OVER TIME and incentivizing a switch to tiericide. If there was a proper market with Buy & Sell orders like EVE has, I think this process could be sped up to spread out the current supply of gear among many players whom will then use it up, as opposed to powerful gear being in the hands of few that drain it slowly. TLDR, have mechanics to very slowly get rid of the currently existing gear and incentivize switching to a tiericide model Prepare your angus
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 497	Posted - 2015.10.28 07:03:00 - [130] - Quote DiablosMajora wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: That's natural dichotomy. Every game always has that and always will. Some players are inherently better than others. Except we don't balance games around that concept, we try and normalize what the players have access to so that the better players, even when stacked don't near instant kill people. Two players with the same gear, one sucks and one wrecks - the bad player needs to take efforts to improve his game. This is FAIR. Two players in different gear who both wreck, and one loses 9/10 times because of an hp and damage advantage, isn't fair. Can't balance someone's skill, but we can balance the way you gain advantages over other players through equipment. Pretty much nailed it. Which is why I am as passionate about the in-game economy as I am. I dislike that players have enormous wealths of ISK and I feel that a lot of problems stem from passive generation (PC farming, Warbarge modules) and exempted generation (BPOs, APEX BPOs). A lot of the time I hear these arguments that skill > gear but no-one ever mentions what happens when you have skill AND gear or when a player has low skill and low gear. How do you balance that? IMO, tiercide is something we desperately need even still but something we can never get because of past sins. There shouldn't be this whole MLT/STD/ADV/Proto/Officer thing... but because we offered players BPOs and APEXs, we're screwed into having it. We can't get away from it without basically invalidating the real-life money players have spent. We also can't strip players of their enormous ISK wallets. And because of that players will -always- have some form of mechanical advantage over others. Either because they paid real money and now never have to spend ISK again or because they were around for PC ISK farming and will never be able to spend all of what they have. They'll always be exempted from having to pay ISK and can use the ISK they save en masse to fund powerful gear. It's frustrating as hell. A new player coming into this game has neither of these advantages and must rely -EXCLUSIVELY- on their own player skill in order to just scrape by and survive. I feel like there's nothing we can do about it because people want to retain their real money investments and want to keep the isk they -coughs- "earned". What's worse is that when we port - if we port - we'll likely have to carry these sins over and introduce them to a whole new player base. It's going to leave a pretty bitter first impression and I don't think it's going to go over well in the reviews and feedback. But yanno. People want their "I Win" button. Game health be damned. Why not take babby steps into fixing that MLT/STD/ADV/Proto/Officer disparity like is currently being done with Officer gear? Have mechanics in place to drain the current supply SLOWLY OVER TIME and incentivizing a switch to tiericide. If there was a proper market with Buy & Sell orders like EVE has, I think this process could be sped up to spread out the current supply of gear among many players whom will then use it up, as opposed to powerful gear being in the hands of few that drain it slowly. TLDR, have mechanics to very slowly get rid of the currently existing gear and incentivize switching to a tiericide model I agree with the idea that any major change should be well thought out and perhaps introduced incrementally.

Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.10.28 08:20:00 - [131] - Quote What could be done is to give new players a stat boost like 300 more hp and 5% more weapon damage for the mean time while they reach better gear and skills. That's what they do in elder scrolls online.. it doesn't hurt anyone. The isk is the biggest problem.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.28 08:21:00 - [132] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: What could be done is to give new players a stat boost like 300 more hp and 5% more weapon damage for the mean time while they reach better gear and skills. That's what they do in elder scrolls online.. it doesn't hurt anyone. The isk is the biggest problem. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Sequal's Back Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.10.28 08:42:00 - [133] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Sequal's Back wrote: Answering to the original post : Isn't grinding to get a better gear and compete with other players the whole goal in DUST ????? Isn't ISK supposed to be part of the balance when it comes to competing? And it is. Some players are just crazily rich because of previous broken PC mechanics. But a majority of the playerbase can't afford proto or officer gear. And I don't see where it changes the fact that grinding SP is the main goal in Dust. You can quote 1/5 of my post if you want, it won't change this. Proto gear is nothing compared to teamplay and personnal skills. PC is the best proof. So many times we destroyed teams playing full proto because we were better coordinated and better players (in Apex or STD suits). Saying proto gear is killing the game is stupid. Bring your daughter... TO THE SLAUGHTER ! - Sequal Rise
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 392	Posted - 2015.10.28 08:49:00 - [134] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: What could be done is to give new players a stat boost like 300 more hp and 5% more weapon damage for the mean time while they reach better gear and skills. That's what they do in elder scrolls online.. it doesn't hurt anyone. The isk is the biggest problem. Whatever helps them to get some breathing room. To fix things properly I really hope CCP can re-consider their progression system at some time in the future. There is way too much strength built into it. Like they really went over the top there. When you can double the HP of a class just by being at the far end of a skill tree and add damage and add mobility and add a better minimap... well it's certainly a "unique" approach to a skill tree mechanic. And yeah, it's a pretty bad situation that ISK is either a massively limiting factor or not a factor at all. CCP balanced a bunch of extremely strong gear around its ISK price, thinking 'oh if we make this cost 5x as much as the tier below then it'll only get used in the top tiers of gameplay'. It would have been nice to see work, but with a persistent wallet in place all older players are eventually going to be able to use it in any tier of gameplay without worry. Something is killing new player retention.
Burnwall Rep Tool ZionTCO 0	Posted - 2015.10.28 09:39:00 - [135] - Quote Sequal's Back wrote: Answering to the original post : Isn't grinding to get a better gear and compete with other players the whole goal in DUST ????? Yes a newberry with no SP or skills will get rekt. But we all got rekt (and still are sometimes), but we kept playing and we grinded more SP to become "vets". Dust would've been a really bad call of duty if the difference you get by grinding would've been less than what you're saying. That's the RPG part of dust and what makes it different than any other FPS. The people advocating for stripping the game down want a free call of duty clone with poor performance, sloppy controls, and bad maps I guess.
D4GG3R Opus Arcana 2	Posted - 2015.10.28 15:08:00 - [136] - Quote Ahkhomi Cypher wrote: We also have to look at skill level and not just level of gear because some people just suck at the game while others are better. Through all of this meta talk thats one bigass factor that people are leaving out of the equation. Some people suck at the game. Some people are really good at it. In a PC you can kinda expect guys like D4GG3R and Arianna to do well. In a meta locked/tier locked game mode they're still gonna be styling on hoes. That shoutout though "Dagger is like a mage, damage him enough and he runs." -Nega Matix I watch anime for the boobs
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.28 15:15:00 - [137] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: What could be done is to give new players a stat boost like 300 more hp and 5% more weapon damage for the mean time while they reach better gear and skills. That's what they do in elder scrolls online.. it doesn't hurt anyone. The isk is the biggest problem. I'd personally rather just give them a set of base skills, unallocated SP, and remove Militia from the game. Extra HP and damage "Just because" isn't very EVE like. Work with the system, rather than just slapping on bonuses. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 499	Posted - 2015.10.28 20:05:00 - [138] - Quote Burnwall Rep Tool wrote: Sequal's Back wrote: Answering to the original post : Isn't grinding to get a better gear and compete with other players the whole goal in DUST ????? Yes a newberry with no SP or skills will get rekt. But we all got rekt (and still are sometimes), but we kept playing and we grinded more SP to become "vets". Dust would've been a really bad call of duty if the difference you get by grinding would've been less than what you're saying. That's the RPG part of dust and what makes it different than any other FPS. The people advocating for stripping the game down want a free call of duty clone with poor performance, sloppy controls, and bad maps I guess. I don't know of a single person who advocates " stripping the game down". Even in this very thread, the main proposed solution is meta locks, nothing is being removed, not even proto and officer! And starting out getting rekt was a lot different than today. Today its about pure hp/dmg advantage. Players aren't complaining they can't win games because of epic coordination or Teamwork by the enemy. They complain about how hard it is to kill some people and how easy they die. We all know what they are talking about, the TTK disparity between max and min is just insane! This isn't a complaint to win more games... Losing is natural! But having poor quality games isn't. Noobs want to be able to feel like they can win fights against vets based on their skill, not time invested into the game.
luckyireland Mcalpines Fusiliers 21	Posted - 2015.10.29 01:46:00 - [139] - Quote I really think piublic games should meta locked If i want to get into games with low meta i have to run suits under a certain meta lets say 26 for basic,in basic games people are using suits with all the same meta locked modules and guns. The risk is low so the pay is low. Now onto adv the meta will be 36 the same meta lock modules and guns. This is higher risk to your wallet but theres higher payout if you do good. Now proto is the highest meta level possibly in this game anything goes The risk is super high to wallet but the rewards are worth running this level If i run apex suits that is'nt changed in any way in this meta level and kill proto suits you get zero risk to wallet and all profit I'm happy go lucky
luckyireland Mcalpines Fusiliers 21	Posted - 2015.10.29 02:00:00 - [140] - Quote Something like this would give a new player a place were they can learn the game with people there own level and make a profit but if they want to run better suits the will step up to adv and believe me they will because better suits will bring better rewards. And to all proto stompers if the drop down to lower meta games just remember that they are meta locked so everyones in same suits so it will be hard even for a good sqaud. I'm happy go lucky

XxBlazikenxX Pure Evil. Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 3	Posted - 2015.10.29 02:02:00 - [141] - Quote luckyireland wrote: Something like this would give a new player a place were they can learn the game with people there own level and make a profit but if they want to run better suits the will step up to adv and believe me they will because better suits will bring better rewards. And to all proto stompers if the drop down to lower meta games just remember that they are meta locked so everyones in same suits so it will be hard even for a good sqaud. Your kidding right. You take just 4 people from AE or FA, and put them in all militia suits. I guarantee you they would wreck even advanced suits. Director of Pure Evil. Pure Evil. is mass recruiting, apply today and join a war of the Bleeding Sun vs everyone!
luckyireland Mcalpines Fusiliers 21	Posted - 2015.10.29 02:13:00 - [142] - Quote I don't now the numbers but i think there extra damage and cores wont be that much giving a lower meta and who would run a low reward meta game anyway at least new players will have a better chance at killing them. I'm happy go lucky
XxBlazikenxX Pure Evil. Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 3	Posted - 2015.10.29 02:14:00 - [143] - Quote luckyireland wrote: I don't now the numbers but i think there extra damage and cores wont be that much giving a lower meta and who would run a low reward meta game anyway at least new players will have a better chance at killing them. The cores aren't much? That's where you are wrong. A noob in militia and a vet in militia are two different worlds. That vet has 150% more health than the noob. Director of Pure Evil. Pure Evil. is mass recruiting, apply today and join a war of the Bleeding Sun vs everyone!
luckyireland Mcalpines Fusiliers 21	Posted - 2015.10.29 02:28:00 - [144] - Quote But again who would run in the lower meta game.a good player who is with a good corp would not be able to run lower meta games and pc and still think he can rake in th isk. I'm happy go lucky
XxBlazikenxX Pure Evil. Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 3	Posted - 2015.10.29 02:29:00 - [145] - Quote luckyireland wrote: But again who would run in the lower meta game.a good player who is with a good corp would not be able to run lower meta games and pc and still think he can rake in th isk. You think it is about the isk? Ask most vets, they don't care about isk, they care about having fun and winning. Director of Pure Evil. Pure Evil. is mass recruiting, apply today and join a war of the Bleeding Sun vs everyone!
luckyireland Mcalpines Fusiliers 21	Posted - 2015.10.29 02:51:00 - [146] - Quote Winning should be for pc and faction warfare fun for public I'm happy go lucky
Genral69 death T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K Damage LLC 839	Posted - 2015.10.29 07:44:00 - [147] - Quote XxBlazikenxX wrote: luckyireland wrote: But again who would run in the lower meta game.a good player who is with a good corp would not be able to run lower meta games and pc and still think he can rake in th isk. You think it is about the isk? Ask most vets, they don't care about isk, they care about having fun and winning. Very true, there's nothing like being qync against your friends and having a laugh https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=213777&find=unread
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 5	Posted - 2015.10.29 08:33:00 - [148] - Quote Sequal's Back wrote: IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Sequal's Back wrote: Answering to the original post : Isn't grinding to get a better gear and compete with other players the whole goal in DUST ????? Isn't ISK supposed to be part of the balance when it comes to competing? And it is. Some players are just crazily rich because of previous broken PC mechanics. But a majority of the playerbase can't afford proto or officer gear. And I don't see where it changes the fact that grinding SP is the main goal in Dust. You can quote 1/5 of my post if you want, it won't change this. Proto gear is nothing compared to teamplay and personnal skills. PC is the best proof. So many times we destroyed teams playing full proto because we were better coordinated and better players (in Apex or STD suits). Saying proto gear is killing the game is stupid. I only quoted the part of your post that I was addressing. My point is that ISK is way too prevalent, and you usually see those who run proto saying they run proto coz why not? That statement there shows something is broken. The other points you make I agree with but that doesn't mean stuff ain't broke - ISK is not a balancing factor that it should be because of exploits, that BTW still continue today. It's broke. When I'm not deleting DUST, I farm
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 5	Posted - 2015.10.29 08:38:00 - [149] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Kalante Schiffer wrote: What could be done is to give new players a stat boost like 300 more hp and 5% more weapon damage for the mean time while they reach better gear and skills. That's what they do in elder scrolls online.. it doesn't hurt anyone. The isk is the biggest problem. I'd personally rather just give them a set of base skills, unallocated SP, and remove Militia from the game. Extra HP and damage "Just because" isn't very EVE like. Work with the system, rather than just slapping on bonuses. I think this would be a better approach too instead of some temporary bonus that will likely confuse things when it gets removed (and when exactly would that be?). Better to not invest time in figuring that out and just narrow the gap at the baseline instead. When I'm not deleting DUST, I farm
Sequal's Back Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.10.29 08:50:00 - [150] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Sequal's Back wrote: IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Sequal's Back wrote: Answering to the original post : Isn't grinding to get a better gear and compete with other players the whole goal in DUST ????? Isn't ISK supposed to be part of the balance when it comes to competing? And it is. Some players are just crazily rich because of previous broken PC mechanics. But a majority of the playerbase can't afford proto or officer gear. And I don't see where it changes the fact that grinding SP is the main goal in Dust. You can quote 1/5 of my post if you want, it won't change this. Proto gear is nothing compared to teamplay and personnal skills. PC is the best proof. So many times we destroyed teams playing full proto because we were better coordinated and better players (in Apex or STD suits). Saying proto gear is killing the game is stupid. I only quoted the part of your post that I was addressing. My point is that ISK is way too prevalent, and you usually see those who run proto saying they run proto coz why not? That statement there shows something is broken. The other points you make I agree with but that doesn't mean stuff ain't broke - ISK is not a balancing factor that it should be because of exploits, that BTW still continue today. It's broke. I completely agree with you. Isk system is broken. Some players are way too rich. A good thing would be to bring down to zero everybody's isk, and then triple the isk gains per battle. That way, people would go back on the same level, and everybody would stop hiding to save their precious isks as they know they'd earn a lot of them if they fight. But no one would ever agree to lose their isk.. Bring your daughter... TO THE SLAUGHTER ! - Sequal Rise

D4GG3R Opus Arcana 2	Posted - 2015.10.29 10:33:00 - [151] - Quote xavier zor wrote: Ahkhomi Cypher wrote: We also have to look at skill level and not just level of gear because some people just suck at the game while others are better. Through all of this meta talk thats one bigass factor that people are leaving out of the equation. Some people suck at the game. Some people are really good at it. In a PC you can kinda expect guys like D4GG3R and Arianna to do well. In a meta locked/tier locked game mode they're still gonna be styling on hoes. Ahkhomi Cypher wrote: In a PC you can kinda expect guys like D4GG3R. LOL D4GG3R??? That is fu*king hilarious man. dagger really isn't good at all Yeah, you're probably right. http://imgur.com/HPAB7Nl http://imgur.com/qhNbPUd http://imgur.com/YvGA3nw http://imgur.com/8lNGatE If you'd like some more pics just let me know. Now get back to your pubs. "Dagger is like a mage, damage him enough and he runs." -Nega Matix I watch anime for the boobs


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