DUST Search - Can't argue with numbers - protostomping needs to go

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Shaun Iwairo wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

I personally believe that TTK is key; everyone died faster in Chromosome. I'm very much concerned that we're moving in the wrong direction with regard to TTK, and I anticipate that NPE will suffer as direct result.

I guess TTK is what my numbers all boil down to. Very generally speaking a vet has a 93% higher TTK than a new player, so trying to shorten it on the higher end is inevitably going to cause death-by-stray-bullet problems on the lower end. To be fair, credit to whichever devs do the numbers on that stuff. Bringing a game to a 'playable' state, knowing that two players running the same class could have a 93% difference in TTK must be a nightmare.

While I appreciate the math in the OP, the TTK disparity between a given newbro and a given vet is not necessarily shared among all newbros and vets. HP levels vary by class, by tier and by loadout. A PRO Assault unit, for example, can fit high-end HP modules whereas a STD Assault unit cannot. Directly buffing HP modules would benefit both the PRO and STD Assault units, assuming they're both running HP modules, but the PRO unit would benefit by greater degree. And compared to a Commando , for example, the PRO Assault (in this scenario) would benefit by far greater degree, due to difference in slot count between the two classes.

Adjustments to TTK -- whether up or down -- do not impact all classes, loadouts and tiers by the same degree.


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Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 37	Posted - 2015.10.07 23:32:00 - [1] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Sorry to steal your info Shaun, I hope you don't mind me reposting it. All credit goes to him, I'm just a copypasta machine. No problem, I put it out there because I think it's worth discussing. Ahkhomi Cypher wrote: We also have to look at skill level and not just level of gear because some people just suck at the game while others are better. This is one of the reasons that I'm for some sort of tier + SP equalized mode. How can a newer player judge their skill (and any improvements in it) when they're going up against other players with a pretty significant HP/DPS differential? In a firefight they may make the right decision but instead of being rewarded with a kill they ended up getting punished because their opponent simply has higher stats. It messes up the learning experience to always have to question every death with 'was that actually a bad move or was that death just a result of the bad guy having higher (E: tier) gear and higher SP than me?' I think there will always be a place in DUST for the extra layer of choice that STD/ADV/PRO adds on top of regular loadout choices, but for the health of the game I think there needs to be a space where players can test their skill without tier and SP modifiers confounding the outcome.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 37	Posted - 2015.10.08 00:38:00 - [2] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: For this reason, I'm inclined to agree that the performance disparity presently afforded by gear and SP is too significant. I appreciate that from a player on the other end of the spectrum. Adipem Nothi wrote: I personally believe that TTK is key; everyone died faster in Chromosome. I'm very much concerned that we're moving in the wrong direction with regard to TTK, and I anticipate that NPE will suffer as direct result. I guess TTK is what my numbers all boil down to. Very generally speaking a vet has a 93% higher TTK than a new player, so trying to shorten it on the higher end is inevitably going to cause death-by-stray-bullet problems on the lower end. To be fair, credit to whichever devs do the numbers on that stuff. Bringing a game to a 'playable' state, knowing that two players running the same class could have a 93% difference in TTK must be a nightmare.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 37	Posted - 2015.10.08 00:54:00 - [3] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: One or two people running good gear won't cause a stomp, squading in pubs is much more powerful. xavier zor wrote: a lot of people here know this feeling. keep your random sh*t talking out of serious threads. I'm willing to concede I'm completely missing something here, but: Nearly every other fps has a 'squad' mechanic, yet very few of them suffer the frequency of pubstomping that Dust does. Other than the gear that squadded up mercs run, what makes squads in Dust so much more powerful?
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 37	Posted - 2015.10.08 01:58:00 - [4] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Shaun Iwairo wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: One or two people running good gear won't cause a stomp, squading in pubs is much more powerful. xavier zor wrote: a lot of people here know this feeling. keep your random sh*t talking out of serious threads. I'm willing to concede I'm completely missing something here, but: Nearly every other fps has a 'squad' mechanic, yet very few of them suffer the frequency of pubstomping that Dust does. Other than the gear that squadded up mercs run, what makes squads in Dust so much more powerful? Communication and familiarity I agree, but every 'squad' in an fps gains this advantage which is why I don't think it's a contributing factor to Dusts unusually high frequency of pubstomping.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 37	Posted - 2015.10.08 02:41:00 - [5] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shaun Iwairo wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I personally believe that TTK is key; everyone died faster in Chromosome. I'm very much concerned that we're moving in the wrong direction with regard to TTK, and I anticipate that NPE will suffer as direct result. I guess TTK is what my numbers all boil down to. Very generally speaking a vet has a 93% higher TTK than a new player, so trying to shorten it on the higher end is inevitably going to cause death-by-stray-bullet problems on the lower end. To be fair, credit to whichever devs do the numbers on that stuff. Bringing a game to a 'playable' state, knowing that two players running the same class could have a 93% difference in TTK must be a nightmare. While I appreciate the math in the OP, the TTK disparity between a given newbro and a given vet is not necessarily shared among all newbros and vets. HP levels vary by class, by tier and by loadout. A PRO Assault unit, for example, can fit high-end HP modules whereas a STD Assault unit cannot. Directly buffing HP modules would benefit both the PRO and STD Assault units, assuming they're both running HP modules, but the PRO unit would benefit by greater degree. And compared to a Commando , for example, the PRO Assault (in this scenario) would benefit by far greater degree, due to difference in slot count between the two classes. Adjustments to TTK -- whether up or down -- do not impact all classes, loadouts and tiers by the same degree. Yep I'm with you on all your points. I realize my statement of '93% higher TTK' is kinda flawed, hence my caveat of 'very generally speaking', but I do believe it serves it's purpose of showing the basic impact of tier and SP on TTK. If the difference in stats between STD/ADV/PRO/OFC and also those provided by skills were all brought closer in line with each other then making tweaks to a more global TTK goal would be much easier. Even if it's just in one unique mode, removing the effect of those differences completely would bring on some of the most balanced gameplay Dust has ever seen. Scotty has a pretty good idea of the skill of the players he's putting up against each other, but he has no idea what gear they're going to bring.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 37	Posted - 2015.10.08 03:53:00 - [6] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shaun Iwairo wrote: If the difference in stats between STD/ADV/PRO/OFC and also those provided by skills were all brought closer in line with each other then making tweaks to a more global TTK goal would be much easier. Even if it's just in one unique mode, removing the effect of those differences completely would bring on some of the most balanced gameplay Dust has ever seen. Scotty has a pretty good idea of the skill of the players he's putting up against each other, but he has no idea what gear they're going to bring. I don't know what you mean by "more global TTK goal", but I also favor the idea of slight performance advantages at exponentially increasing costs. Gear and SP should afford only a slight advantage in combat ... Specifically how to go about getting there -- and whether or not it'd be a good idea for DUST at this juncture -- I honestly don't know. But I do know that performance disparity at opposing ends of the experience spectrum has worsened with HP Creep, and I doubt seriously that a solution to this problem will be found in more HP Creep. I can see how you got there, but I am absolutely not suggesting more HP without the corresponding changes to DPS. You are spot on when you say that the TTK in Dust is a bit too long as it is.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 37	Posted - 2015.10.08 22:32:00 - [7] - Quote Chill out dudes. Everyone has their reasons for thinking what they think. I can see where the people that say squads contribute to pubstomping are coming from - If you know your mate is going to run proto then you're more likely to yourself. Apart from shared scans, any other advantages that squads give (communication, organizing roles, etc.) are not unique to Dust and so are unlikely to be a contributor to pubstomping. So if tiers were locked then squads in Dust would function as they do in every other fps and IMO wouldn't need changing/removing. Having said that, I do agree that a solo queue would give Scotty a better chance at balancing matches as far as MU goes.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 44	Posted - 2015.10.10 03:20:00 - [8] - Quote Press Attache wrote: Oh, so your reference point about proto and standard balance was from before they gave standard suits a ton of slots. That is an irrelevant comparison. In the game that we are actually playing that 800 hp gap doesn't exist. What is a tryhard to you? Because the way you seem to be using it would imply that it is anyone who can afford to run better gear longer than you can. That is not a tryhard, just someone who is doing better at the fiscal side of the game. I think that last bit is a bit dishonest. It's well known that a large chuck of the playerbase have piles of isk behind them from old (and to an extent, current) broken PC payout mechanics. Of course they should run whatever they can pay for, especially if it gives them an advantage. But to say they run it because they manage their isk well is a bit of a stretch.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 44	Posted - 2015.10.10 05:01:00 - [9] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: ???? wrote: The power gap is built in to the game by design, it helps as an economic incentive to new players to buy Aurum to shorten the grind. I'd just like to point out that: 1) Rattati has been working on excising the "power gap" from the game (slot normalization, possible power core in the future) 2) EVE has been engaging in tiericide to lessen the "power gap" (or so I've been led to believe) 3) DUSTs "power gap" was implemented by incompetent developers that are no longer working on DUST because they were bad 4) This pace is shltpost central Carry on engaging in uncivil discourse. On no. 2, Eve's tiericide is almost complete. The main philosophy behind doing it was that the increasing power of tiered ships gave a false choice, everyone would only run the highest tier and the time spent not being able to run the highest tier was spent not running anything at all - players knew they simply couldn't be competitive. Also interesting to note is the isk difference between the bottom and top tier was only around 30% for ships. If you take that same philosophy and apply it to Dust, then some sort of tiericide is more than appropriate.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 392	Posted - 2015.10.28 08:49:00 - [10] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: What could be done is to give new players a stat boost like 300 more hp and 5% more weapon damage for the mean time while they reach better gear and skills. That's what they do in elder scrolls online.. it doesn't hurt anyone. The isk is the biggest problem. Whatever helps them to get some breathing room. To fix things properly I really hope CCP can re-consider their progression system at some time in the future. There is way too much strength built into it. Like they really went over the top there. When you can double the HP of a class just by being at the far end of a skill tree and add damage and add mobility and add a better minimap... well it's certainly a "unique" approach to a skill tree mechanic. And yeah, it's a pretty bad situation that ISK is either a massively limiting factor or not a factor at all. CCP balanced a bunch of extremely strong gear around its ISK price, thinking 'oh if we make this cost 5x as much as the tier below then it'll only get used in the top tiers of gameplay'. It would have been nice to see work, but with a persistent wallet in place all older players are eventually going to be able to use it in any tier of gameplay without worry. Something is killing new player retention.